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Thread: Transgender Rights

  1. #1 Transgender Rights 
    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    Transgender is, according to Wikipedia:
    "(...) the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex)."

    Whether or not you are a transgender,
    a survey by the NCTE (National Center for Transgender Equality) in 2008-2009 pointed out that discrimination due to one's gender identity can lead to e.g. being fired (26%) or being homeless (19%). The prejudice is even prevalent at young age. NCTE reports:
    "According to GLSEN’s Harsh Realities report, nearly nine in ten transgender students have been verbally harassed in the last year due to their gender expression (87%), and more than half have also been physically assaulted (53%) (...) Nearly half of transgender students report regularly skipping school because of safety concerns, clearly impacting their ability to receive an education, and nearly one in six (15%) of transgender and gender nonconforming students face harassment so severe that they are forced to leave school."

    However, it seems that California is taking steps in protecting the rights of transgender students.
    BBC News writes:
    "A new law requires public schools to allow pupils from kindergarten to the 12th grade to access male or female toilets according to their preference. (...) Supporters of bill AB1266, which gives transgender schoolchildren the right to "participate in sex-segregated programs, activities and facilities", argued that it would help reduce bullying and discrimination."


    Some Republican lawmakers are opposed to the bill, since they fear that allowing students of one gender to use facilities intended for the other could invade the other students' privacy.

    Do you think that Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown should have signed the bill? And do you think that the objections by the Republicans are sound?


    Sources:
    Transgender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    http://transequality.org/Resources/enda_by_the_numbers.pdf
    http://transequality.org/PDFs/Trans_ModelPolicy_2013.pdf
    BBC News - California law protects rights of transgender students
    Calif. governor signs transgender-student bill


    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; August 15th, 2013 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Spelling error.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  3. #2  
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    I do not see how the bill would result in less discrimination or harassment. A male transgendered to female that is in high school who enters the female restroom is in as much danger of harassment as she is in entering the male restroom.


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    The school officials will no longer be part of the harassment, as well as be placed in the position to protect the transgender student. They'll also be obligated to educate other children to accept the transgender child.
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    Well it must be pretty awful to have to go through the whole process of gender reassignment in first place, it's perhaps slightly shameful that it's taken until the 21st century to realise that these people actually have feelings. Certainly anything that could make things less horrible for them has got to be a major step forward. Really though I'm pretty shocked they actually need a bill to encourage the 'staff' to ensure they arn't picked on or ridiculed.
    People just shouldn't be punished for issues they have no control over, so yes it a good thing and I would support the legislation.
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    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
    This is sarcasm, yes?

    If you are actually serious, then gender reassignment means that boys aren't going into girls' restrooms and vice versa. Because their sex has been reassigned.
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    Just as a point of order, this is all pre reassignment surgery (which is the last step of gender reassignment and one that most transgendered people do not undergo for a majority of reasons).
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    If you are actually serious, then gender reassignment means that boys aren't going into girls' restrooms and vice versa. Because their sex has been reassigned.

    What we are seeing here across the pond is many more unisex bathrooms with seperate cubicles, surely this is the way forward to solve petty issues such as this.
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  10. #9  
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    Absolutely - mixed restrooms with private cubicles is the best solution. I don't know if I would support the full content of the bill because I haven't read it but from the bit I have read here it seems good to me.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Absolutely - mixed restrooms with private cubicles is the best solution. I don't know if I would support the full content of the bill because I haven't read it but from the bit I have read here it seems good to me.

    I think that this is the bill the authors are referring to in their articles:
    Bill Text - AB-1266 Pupil rights: sex-segregated school programs and activities.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

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    Okay, let's pass a law that cannot be complied with using current school infrastructure. Then we will force the schools to spend millions of dollars that they do not have in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of a percent of people who do not understand what sex they are. Brilliant.
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  13. #12  
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    Money, particularly the small amount necessary to improve restroom privacy, something that should already exist in schools, it a poor excuse to support tyranny by the majority. The changes to bathrooms, where necessary, will improve quality of life for all students.
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    I'm sure the cost is trivial to the person who doesn't have to find the money for the project. Have any cost estimates been done? The bill does not seem to even address any money for facility upgrades. They'll just go ahead and pass the law anyway.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I'm sure the cost is trivial to the person who doesn't have to find the money for the project. Have any cost estimates been done? The bill does not seem to even address any money for facility upgrades. They'll just go ahead and pass the law anyway.
    What upgrades do you think are necessary? I haven't seen a bathroom without enclosed stalls since I left the Army (and they were becoming uncommon there as well). I doubt there's any bathrooms in school that already don't include them. Point being the existing infrastructure already can accommodate the change. And even if changes turn out to be necessary, that should seldom be a concern with deciding a minorities rights.
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    "people who do not understand what sex they are" Some of them don't fell into our common definition biologically--being super males or females with variances of X and Y chromosomes, others have distinguishable brain differences; saying they don't understand is not an accurate picture. Overall it seems to be about 0.1% of the population are transgender. Consider that 3-5% of the student population is LBGT, it's a concern far greater than just one or two kids per school.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Then we will force the schools to spend millions of dollars that they do not have in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of a percent of people who do not understand what sex they are.

    In 2009, the NCTE estimated that about 0.25% to 1% of the U.S. population is transgender.
    The population of California had in 2010 a group of ± 7.000.000 people between the age of 5 and 17, of which 17.500 - 70.000 were transgender people.

    If we take into account that this age group made up 17.5% of the U.S. population in 2010, then we are talking about 135.000 - 540.000 transgender people.

    Furthermore, it is erroneous to think that transgender people do not understand what sex they are.
    There are biological, psychological, medical and even cultural reasons why an individual considers him/herself as a transgender.

    Besides, it is not mentioned in the bill that unisex toilets must be build to accommodate transgender people, it is an option:
    "A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records."



    Sources:
    http://transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_UnderstandingTrans.pdf
    http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf
    http://www.dof.ca.gov/research/demographic/state_census_data_center/census_2010/documents/2010Census_DemoProfile1.xls
    Bill Text - AB-1266 Pupil rights: sex-segregated school programs and activities.

    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; August 13th, 2013 at 01:34 PM.
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  17. #16  
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    Every "transgender" "restroom" here is just a men's room with a different sign.

    no retrofitting needed

    I've a friend who likes to wear a dress. He still used the "mens" room.
    and stalls are the norm.

    (trying to picture a woman using a urinal)
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Every "transgender" "restroom" here is just a men's room with a different sign.

    no retrofitting needed

    I've a friend who likes to wear a dress. He still used the "mens" room.
    and stalls are the norm.

    (trying to picture a woman using a urinal)
    They need a Shewee |


    But on a more serious note, schools have budgets and have to find money for things all the time. This would simply be a one off expense to change the existing bathrooms so that everyone could use them. Also as Lynx rightly pointed out, people should have privacy when using a toilet, so even if they didn't make the necessary changes to aid transgender children there is still a valid privacy case that could be made for finding funding from existing school budgets.

    I certainly can't see this costing 'millions' to implement, but then perhaps I didn't go to a posh enough school.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    They need a Shewee |

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    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Every "transgender" "restroom" here is just a men's room with a different sign.

    no retrofitting needed

    I've a friend who likes to wear a dress. He still used the "mens" room.
    and stalls are the norm.

    (trying to picture a woman using a urinal)
    That's not what the California bill says, though. It says he can go in the men's room or the women's room, what ever he pleases. So can some smartass who just want to ogle the girls. All he has to do is claim he's transgendered.
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  21. #20  
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    shewee
    hahahahaha

    curiouser and curiouser
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    What you have is a society which already looks at things a certain way. Given time, that can change... but it cannot be changed quickly.

    There is no solution.

    Making unisex bathrooms with kids just going through puberty and their hormones through the roof- you think THAT solves problems?
    Dudes will try to peek up under the stall door when a girl is under there- no transgender involved.
    Not to mention willing parties running off to the bathroom together. Or teachers able to walk in on either gender and stalls are not so private, by the way. They just feel more private than being fully out in the open.

    So we go from saying don't harass "this crowd" to opening up another crowd to harassment that will be afraid to go to the Unisex bathroom at school.

    Aside from confronting the costs of building Two Additional Restrooms per wing to accommodate intersex, transgender, transsexual for BOTH ftm and mtf, it's pretty much a screwed deal. Or is it a bum deal?
    Someone is going to get the shaft, get lost between the cracks...

    And sometimes it's no ones fault. It's not a transgendered kids fault. He certainly didn't choose it. It's not the harassing kids fault- it's human nature to ostracize people they consider to be far outside of normal. We can try to educate them but hey, let's be blunt... we try to educate them about math and science and look how much success we have there... Some failing easy watered down classes and those that pass the classes still don't know squat.
    Pun unintended.

    You can't fix everything and some of the "solutions"proposed simply pass the problem onto someone else.
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  23. #22  
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    Any school that has sensible toilet provision for disabled students could also simply make them available for transgender students.

    By sensible I mean the same arrangement as we have here in supermarkets and theatres. One set of loos each for men and women, another entirely separate disabled loo. In supermarkets these are often equipped with baby changing tables as well. Much more economical than putting disabled facilities within each of the men's and women's facilities.
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  25. #24  
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    Every single person has the right to go to school or work or anywhere in public, free of physical and verbal harassment or abuse. Parents would be wise to stop bring afraid to talk to their kids about subjects they find "different."A transgendered person is dealing with so much, all they want is to be treated with human dignity. I'm for the bill.I hope that schools do their best to educate students on how to treat all of their fellow classmates with dignity.I don't see kids who are not transgendered saying that they are....in order to use the restrooms of the opposite sex. That reminds me of the straw-man argument over gay marriage. Various protestors claimed it would erode heterosexual marriage. ?? Lol

    Schools need to have a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment of ANYONE. And enforce it. I think the unisex bathrooms would be an ideal option. Those exist where I work come to think of it. There is a men's room, women's room and it shows both male/female on a sign...I believe that bathroom is suitable for one person only. But that would be a safe and good option in this case. (By safe, I mean for the transgendered student to be able to feel safe when using the restroom.)
    Last edited by wegs; August 13th, 2013 at 09:42 PM.
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    First, what's the point in separate bathrooms for different sexes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    First, what's the point in separate bathrooms for different sexes?
    I've often wondered who came up with urinals? I'd protest if I were a man. If I were a man, I'd be using the stall...always. I'm not standing next to someone else ... what is that about?!? Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    First, what's the point in separate bathrooms for different sexes?
    I've often wondered who came up with urinals? I'd protest if I were a man. If I were a man, I'd be using the stall...always. I'm not standing next someone else what is that about?!? Lol
    Urinals are awesome! But they are much nicer when they have the little walls in between
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  29. #28  
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    I had a temporary room mate named Grey, he was an actor from new york.
    he was in a movie, about 4 guys hunting a guest on an island, with peter fonda
    no urinals on the set, they pissed into a rain gutter.
    One fine day he was pissing when Peter came in to do the same
    He sidled over next to peter who seemed a tad put off by Grey looking at his dick
    Grey said: "There are about 20 horny women at the gate wanting to see your dick, now, I can tell them that i've seen it, and what it looks like"

    Poor Grey, he thought that doing a movie with Peter Fonda would make his career. Peter's advisors thought the movie would harm Peter's fan appeal, and they stuck the film in a can and on a shelf. Many years later(20?), when I couldn't fall asleep, I finally saw that movie at 2 am, on cable.

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    A point I think needs considering, here:

    Just because you agree with the notion that a group of people need their "rights" protected better does NOT mean that a bill or law is automatically a good bill, agreeable bill or good/agreeable law.
    You can agree with the notion but find the bill/law poorly written, full of other b.s. stuffed into it, etc.

    Be careful not to jump on a bandwagon expressing support for a bill you have not read.

    You can express support for the people or their fight- it is not the same as supporting a written bill that is on that topic.
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    I would have to disagree with being allowed to choose whatever gender sports they want, as it can allow an unfair competitive edge. Most else of the bill I'm more neutral on, bringing all this attention to transgender students can easily result in more bullying.
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    The problem I see with this is we would need a reliable legal definition of who is and isn't transgender.

    In order to be allowed to use the bathroom of the opposite sex, a person should be required to have formally applied to the state to be given "transgender" status, and it should be granted on the basis of some criteria.

    Otherwise what's to stop a peeping Tom from throwing on a dress and marching into the women's bathroom?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    First, what's the point in separate bathrooms for different sexes?
    I've often wondered who came up with urinals? I'd protest if I were a man. If I were a man, I'd be using the stall...always. I'm not standing next to someone else ... what is that about?!? Lol
    It's hard to have an honest pissing contest if you have walls between you when you pee.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Otherwise what's to stop a peeping Tom from throwing on a dress and marching into the women's bathroom?
    In a school? Where most people know who just about everybody else is even if they've never spoken to them.

    Schools in other countries that don't have the usual US arrangement of lockers in shared halls might have more of a problem with this because more students might not get to see so many of the people they don't share classes with.

    As for why not universally shared facilities. There'd be a hell of an extra cost in providing disposal containers for tampons and pads in every single cubicle whereas they are not provided at all in male only facilities. And that's not a one off cost like changing locks, doors or disabled facilities, this is an every year thereafter cost.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Otherwise what's to stop a peeping Tom from throwing on a dress and marching into the women's bathroom?
    In a school? Where most people know who just about everybody else is even if they've never spoken to them.

    Schools in other countries that don't have the usual US arrangement of lockers in shared halls might have more of a problem with this because more students might not get to see so many of the people they don't share classes with.

    As for why not universally shared facilities. There'd be a hell of an extra cost in providing disposal containers for tampons and pads in every single cubicle whereas they are not provided at all in male only facilities. And that's not a one off cost like changing locks, doors or disabled facilities, this is an every year thereafter cost.
    I have yet to see a school bathroom stall that offers total privacy. You can see through the spaces between the door and the cubicle wall. They would have to rip out all the stalls and replace them with solid walls with doors that leave no gaps above or below. And you give kids that much privacy and what's to stop couples from going in and making out between classes?

    Teens these days are told their parents cannot discipline them and that just about any attempt to discipline them is some sort of discrimination or child abuse. They milk it for all it's worth. For that matter it was starting to be that way when I was a kid. I remember a guy in our school cussing out the principle in the hall way and he was told to go to the office and the kid said "make me, if you lay a hand on me I'll have you arrested for assault". This is what is happening over here. And this is why we have to have police in all schools and have to worry about kids bringing guns to school and crap. Too many of them do not respect authority because whiny childless politicians complain when parents scold their kids or spank them when they are little.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Otherwise what's to stop a peeping Tom from throwing on a dress and marching into the women's bathroom?
    In a school? Where most people know who just about everybody else is even if they've never spoken to them.

    Schools in other countries that don't have the usual US arrangement of lockers in shared halls might have more of a problem with this because more students might not get to see so many of the people they don't share classes with.

    As for why not universally shared facilities. There'd be a hell of an extra cost in providing disposal containers for tampons and pads in every single cubicle whereas they are not provided at all in male only facilities. And that's not a one off cost like changing locks, doors or disabled facilities, this is an every year thereafter cost.
    I have yet to see a school bathroom stall that offers total privacy. You can see through the spaces between the door and the cubicle wall. They would have to rip out all the stalls and replace them with solid walls with doors that leave no gaps above or below. And you give kids that much privacy and what's to stop couples from going in and making out between classes?
    lol, i'd imagine more than making out would be going on!
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    transgender rights
    "and lefts too" said the transgender boxer as he/she/whatever, delivered a vicious uppercut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have yet to see a school bathroom stall that offers total privacy. You can see through the spaces between the door and the cubicle wall. They would have to rip out all the stalls and replace them with solid walls with doors that leave no gaps above or below. And you give kids that much privacy and what's to stop couples from going in and making out between classes?
    Yet 3-5% of bathrooms are already being used by gays without a lot of problems of the sort you describe.

    Teens these days are told their parents cannot discipline them and that just about any attempt to discipline them is some sort of discrimination or child abuse.
    Horse pucky. Children are taught what child abuse is, and encouraged to be their own advocates, as well as to trust those people required by law to report suspected child abuse (as I and most teachers are in most states).

    They milk it for all it's worth.
    And it usually gets them nowhere when it occasionally does happen. In truth false reports are very rare.

    Too many of them do not respect authority because whiny childless politicians complain when parents scold their kids or spank them when they are little.
    Every generation complains about the younger ones--a trend since Greek philosophers did the same. In reality, at least in the US, the younger generation is more law abiding and generally less trouble making than any prior generation. It's far too easy for older folks to pine for a rose colored past that never existed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    A point I think needs considering, here:

    Just because you agree with the notion that a group of people need their "rights" protected better does NOT mean that a bill or law is automatically a good bill, agreeable bill or good/agreeable law.
    You can agree with the notion but find the bill/law poorly written, full of other b.s. stuffed into it, etc.

    Be careful not to jump on a bandwagon expressing support for a bill you have not read.

    You can express support for the people or their fight- it is not the same as supporting a written bill that is on that topic.

    Actually you make a fair and valid point here. It's quite possible to be in favour of a particular issue but against a bill that is supposed to be in support of the issue if it's a bad bill.
    I often wondered about how politians deal with this particular issue, it seems they can get caught campaigning for something, sometimes for years, then finally when legislation comes along they discover that it's no where near good enough. Do they support it anyway or hold out for something better, then get criticised over their voting record for failing to support an issue that they were in favour all along.

    So yes definately, just because people don't like legislation it doesn't automatically mean they are on the wrong side of the argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post

    Schools need to have a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment of ANYONE. And enforce it. I think the unisex bathrooms would be an ideal option. Those exist where I work come to think of it. There is a men's room, women's room and it shows both male/female on a sign...I believe that bathroom is suitable for one person only. But that would be a safe and good option in this case. (By safe, I mean for the transgendered student to be able to feel safe when using the restroom.)
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post

    Schools need to have a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment of ANYONE. And enforce it.
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    Exactly. And swapping restrooms isn't going to "fix" it.
    Wegs heart is in the right place and her intentions are noble but this simply is not an argument of "Boys will be boys."
    This is about basic human nature and an existing infrastructure and culture. You cannot just download the upgrade patch.

    I mean, how is it that a complete stranger- a man you do not know at all, can stand right next to a ten year old boy at the urinal in a public bath, whip it out and be seen taking a wee and that is ok- it is not public exposure? Because... isn't the effect exactly the same?
    Well the existing idea is- Don't Look.
    So why doesn't that apply if he walks outside and does it? If he did that, everyone goes crazy over the whole affair. But if he does it right next to boys where there is tile, suddenly it's totally acceptable...

    It's because the existing infrastructure and culture is also heavily influenced by cost effectiveness and tolerance and we don't actually stop to think about how stupid it really is. But it is stupid.

    What we have here is a case were some people got a bum deal. It's sad... but so is when a kid is born without legs- or his brain lopsided.
    What happens to the guy who is a hopeless romantic- his lifelong dream was to get married to a loving beautiful woman, have kids, be a family man... But was born with a two inch pecker, ugliest face you ever saw... Or what about the guy whose biggest desire was to be an astronaut, but was born deaf and blind with fragile bones?
    What about that guy who feels in every way like a woman?

    Some people just get born with a bum deal. And we work toward medical advancements but in the meantime, those that exist now or in the past just had to have a sucky life. I mean, we've got pretty good prosthesis now for legs- wasn't always that way. There's that thing where a guy puts a sensor on his tongue and it helps him see directly to the brain, even though his eyes do not function. I mean... it is happening. Gender reassignment is just as difficult as all these other issues and having the high ideal that everyone should just up and love them is contrary to human nature.
    Besides- what happens if a T.G. kid is a complete asshole?

    Kids can be quite cruel. But saying "Zero Tolerance" is required and should be enforced is a futile and impossible task in addition to the harm it actually does to the other kids. It's not just behavior modification, here - but child development. And the more you clamp down, the more these kids are going to find ways of acting out.
    And they will be more cruel when they have to work harder to do it.

    You can't stop it. But what CAN be done is keeping the school counselors informed and up to date and accountable. Hold them to the highest of standards to keep those kids coming under fire sane and alive. To help teach them the strength and courage that they need now and will always need. You cannot protect them from the world. But you can help them to cope with it. They were born with a bum deal. You cannot force everyone else to give and give and give for something that is no more their fault that to the poor kid born that way. You can only teach the kid how to measure up against what he inevitably will always be facing. Let them allow their own strength to shine. Or not.

    If it means letting them use the teachers lounge bathroom once in a while, so be it. But maybe that depends on the kid. Maybe another kid would rather face down those that give him a hard time by not letting them push him out of the restroom.
    And make no mistake, when it comes to cruelty, teenage girls can make teenage boys look like total sweethearts. Putting the T.G. kid in the girls restroom is not always the best bet.


    Maybe another kid will need the comfort of a private bathroom. We had one in our high school that was not T.G. but hermaphrodite. Blanket laws and 'zero tolerance' are just unimpressive. They treat the people as if one rule applies to all, as if there's no escaping their own humanity - humanity for which they are considered wrong. It give no allowance for the actual individuality but most importantly- it just forces the mold instead of really teaching people how to learn and grow up. And it doesn't help the "Victims" learn how to cope, how to stand up, how to rise above or how to stand strong. You can only protect your nest so much... there comes a point where you just have to accept that some folks got a bum deal and some will fall through the cracks.
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    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    That's also addressed with considerable effort in school programs to teach tolerance for others.

    We don't toss out entire teaching efforts because we can't address 100% of the problem. It's also very much debatable whether prejudice is "human nature," and certainly in doubt that it can't be mitigated by good education even if it is. And teaching tolerance and acceptance often takes a generation or more, so such lessons can be passed to the next generation of children at home.

    Our entire society has become much more tolerant of different peoples over the past half a century, with both severity and number of incidents going down. We are all much better for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    That's also addressed with considerable effort in school programs to teach tolerance for others.

    We don't toss out entire teaching efforts because we can't address 100% of the problem. It's also very much debatable whether prejudice is "human nature," and certainly in doubt that it can't be mitigated by good education even if it is. And teaching tolerance and acceptance often takes a generation or more, so such lessons can be passed to the next generation of children at home.

    Our entire society has become much more tolerant of different peoples over the past half a century, with both severity and number of incidents going down. We are all much better for it.
    Well said, indeed.

    I understand that there will be issues, but that doesn’tmean we don’t forge ahead, trying to pave a better way for the future.

    I went through diversity training at work; this needs to bedone in the schools—age appropriate material shown to kids of varying ages.
    Sadly, the fruit often doesn’t fall far from the tree, andkids who are prejudice, bully, and/or discriminate LEARN THAT CRAP AT HOME.

    If you see a prejudice kid, don’t look much further than theparents. If you see a kid who is bullying homosexuals, don’t look further thanthe parents.
    And I don’t necessarily mean that the parents are teachingtheir kids to bully, rather the parents may neglect their kids, and the kidsare left to their own devices.

    Or, the kids do see mom and/or dad as bigots. Bigotry, andbullying all starts in the home.

    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training,too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.

    Every PERSON, should have the right to a bullying-freeschool environment. And what needs to be done is enforcing the rules online andoffline. ENFORCING.
    If you bully, you’re suspended. Period. Don’t like it? Stopbullying.

    I can’t act any way I wish at work. Same needs to startapplying in the schools. That is how you bring about change into society, as awhole.

    /end of soap box rant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    That's also addressed with considerable effort in school programs to teach tolerance for others.

    We don't toss out entire teaching efforts because we can't address 100% of the problem. It's also very much debatable whether prejudice is "human nature," and certainly in doubt that it can't be mitigated by good education even if it is. And teaching tolerance and acceptance often takes a generation or more, so such lessons can be passed to the next generation of children at home.

    Our entire society has become much more tolerant of different peoples over the past half a century, with both severity and number of incidents going down. We are all much better for it.
    Well said, indeed.

    I understand that there will be issues, but that doesn’tmean we don’t forge ahead, trying to pave a better way for the future.

    I went through diversity training at work; this needs to bedone in the schools—age appropriate material shown to kids of varying ages.
    Sadly, the fruit often doesn’t fall far from the tree, and kids who are prejudice, bully, and/or discriminate LEARN THAT CRAP AT HOME.

    If you see a prejudice kid, don’t look much further than theparents. If you see a kid who is bullying homosexuals, don’t look further thanthe parents.
    And I don’t necessarily mean that the parents are teaching their kids to bully, rather the parents may neglect their kids, and the kidsare left to their own devices.

    Or, the kids do see mom and/or dad as bigots. Bigotry, and bullying all starts in the home.

    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.

    Every PERSON, should have the right to a bullying-free school environment. And what needs to be done is enforcing the rules online and offline. ENFORCING.
    If you bully, you’re suspended. Period. Don’t like it? Stop bullying. Physically assault someone? You're kicked out of that school for good.

    I can’t act any way I wish at work. Same needs to start applying in the schools. That is how you bring about change into society, as awhole.

    /end of soap box rant
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    sorry for double post...something's off with the website today. i'm typing from a computer, and it wouldn't let me edit, so I had to copy and paste, and edit again. strange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    That's also addressed with considerable effort in school programs to teach tolerance for others.

    We don't toss out entire teaching efforts because we can't address 100% of the problem. It's also very much debatable whether prejudice is "human nature," and certainly in doubt that it can't be mitigated by good education even if it is. And teaching tolerance and acceptance often takes a generation or more, so such lessons can be passed to the next generation of children at home.

    Our entire society has become much more tolerant of different peoples over the past half a century, with both severity and number of incidents going down. We are all much better for it.
    The interesting about this thread and the arguments made in it, and even how the law is being reported or discussed here and in the public media, is that they are treating transgender children or the issue itself as though these children are choosing to be a different gender. These children are not unsure about their gender. Society is. They know full well who they are and how and what sex they identify themselves as. This is not a 'wake up one morning and decide "I want to be a girl" today'. So it is not a choice for them to be a different sex or to identify themselves as being a different sex.

    And really, allowing them to use the bathroom of the sex they identify with.. Perhaps it's time we allowed children to be themselves instead of forcing them into compliant little boxes that makes us feel comfortable.
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    I support the idea but not the bill itself. The issues of transgendered students in schools are still pretty new, and teachers/administrators are just learning how to deal with them. I would prefer to see a decade of work by schools to try to address this - and THEN a law passed that incorporates the best of what was learned.

    All too often we want to pass a poor law quickly to "solve a problem" only to find out that the law causes more problems than it solves. In this case, taking control out of the hands of school officials might do a lot more harm than good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    That's also addressed with considerable effort in school programs to teach tolerance for others.

    We don't toss out entire teaching efforts because we can't address 100% of the problem. It's also very much debatable whether prejudice is "human nature," and certainly in doubt that it can't be mitigated by good education even if it is. And teaching tolerance and acceptance often takes a generation or more, so such lessons can be passed to the next generation of children at home.

    Our entire society has become much more tolerant of different peoples over the past half a century, with both severity and number of incidents going down. We are all much better for it.
    this is incredibly insightful, and you are right. I hadn't thought of it quite like this.
    The interesting about this thread and the arguments made in it, and even how the law is being reported or discussed here and in the public media, is that they are treating transgender children or the issue itself as though these children are choosing to be a different gender. These children are not unsure about their gender. Society is. They know full well who they are and how and what sex they identify themselves as. This is not a 'wake up one morning and decide "I want to be a girl" today'. So it is not a choice for them to be a different sex or to identify themselves as being a different sex.

    And really, allowing them to use the bathroom of the sex they identify with.. Perhaps it's time we allowed children to be themselves instead of forcing them into compliant little boxes that makes us feel comfortable.
    what should be done in the meantime, though? Relating to schools and their involvement in making children feel safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I support the idea but not the bill itself. The issues of transgendered students in schools are still pretty new, and teachers/administrators are just learning how to deal with them. I would prefer to see a decade of work by schools to try to address this - and THEN a law passed that incorporates the best of what was learned.

    All too often we want to pass a poor law quickly to "solve a problem" only to find out that the law causes more problems than it solves. In this case, taking control out of the hands of school officials might do a lot more harm than good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    That's also addressed with considerable effort in school programs to teach tolerance for others.

    We don't toss out entire teaching efforts because we can't address 100% of the problem. It's also very much debatable whether prejudice is "human nature," and certainly in doubt that it can't be mitigated by good education even if it is. And teaching tolerance and acceptance often takes a generation or more, so such lessons can be passed to the next generation of children at home.

    Our entire society has become much more tolerant of different peoples over the past half a century, with both severity and number of incidents going down. We are all much better for it.
    The interesting about this thread and the arguments made in it, and even how the law is being reported or discussed here and in the public media, is that they are treating transgender children or the issue itself as though these children are choosing to be a different gender. These children are not unsure about their gender. Society is. They know full well who they are and how and what sex they identify themselves as. This is not a 'wake up one morning and decide "I want to be a girl" today'. So it is not a choice for them to be a different sex or to identify themselves as being a different sex.

    And really, allowing them to use the bathroom of the sex they identify with.. Perhaps it's time we allowed children to be themselves instead of forcing them into compliant little boxes that makes us feel comfortable.
    this is incredibly insightful, and you are right. I hadn't thought of it quite like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I support the idea but not the bill itself. The issues of transgendered students in schools are still pretty new, and teachers/administrators are just learning how to deal with them. I would prefer to see a decade of work by schools to try to address this - and THEN a law passed that incorporates the best of what was learned.

    All too often we want to pass a poor law quickly to "solve a problem" only to find out that the law causes more problems than it solves. In this case, taking control out of the hands of school officials might do a lot more harm than good.
    what should be done in the meantime, though? Relating to schools and their involvement in making children feel safe.
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    I have no clue why I can't edit on a computer now. sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    what should be done in the meantime, though? Relating to schools and their involvement in making children feel safe.
    By far the #1 thing is education of teachers and administrators. Even today a lot of teachers/administrators think there is "something wrong" with transgendered students, that psychiatry is the best way to deal with them. We saw the same thing with homosexuality in the 80's and 90's, and it's only today that homosexuality is becoming accepted in schools.

    At the same time they are children, and children don't always make the right decisions on their own. (This goes for both transgendered students and the kids they interact with.) Their parents are the first line of defense for correcting unacceptable behavior; school officials are the second line. I would not want to tie their hands in their efforts to do this.
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    The law mentioned in the OP seems excessive. Just handle these things on a case by case basis. The small number of people affected hardly warrants rebuilding all of the bathrooms in the country.

    Also, judging by the long lines I always see outside women's restrooms, having unisex bathrooms would really slow things down for us men
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    what should be done in the meantime, though? Relating to schools and their involvement in making children feel safe.
    I don't quite understand why allowing transgender children to use the bathroom of their identified sex to be such an issue, to be honest. The argument that schools are allowing boys into girl's bathrooms and vice versa and the whole 'omg their hormones are raging' argument or that the boys may somehow or other go there to perve on the girls and vice versa.

    This makes no sense.

    If you think about the mental trauma these kids are going through by identifying themselves as being transgender and dressing like the opposite sex, for example, this isn't something that they are doing for fun or because they want to cop a bit of a perve.

    The underlying issue people seem to have with this is sex and nudity.

    You only have to look at the case of Coy Mathis, as a prime example. She is a transgender child. She was born a boy and from toddler age, clearly showed and identified herself as being a girl. She had asked her parents when she was very little, when they could take her to the doctors to remove what she referred to as her boy parts and to give her girl parts, because she identified herself as a girl. By the time she was 4 years of age, psychologists had identified her as a transgender child and advised the parents to just let her be who she is. Her name was legally changed and her sex legally changed on all relevant documents. When she started school, she was allowed to use the girl's bathroom.

    And then one day, her parents received a letter from the school, advising them that she would no longer be allowed to use the girl's bathroom and would have to use either a boy's bathroom, teacher's bathroom or disabled bathroom. This little girl, who is currently 6 years of age, who dressed and identified as a girl, who doctors identified as a girl and who was legally a girl, was being told that she would not have to use the boy's bathroom or disabled toilets or teacher's bathrooms.. And the reason the school's lawyers gave was astounding as it was appalling:

    I'm certain you can appreciate that as Coy grows older and his male genitals develop along with the rest of his body, at least some parents and students are likely to become uncomfortable with his continued use of the girls' restroom,' he added.

    Coy Mathis: Transgender child, 6, in Colorado wins civil rights case to use girls bathroom at school | Mail Online
    Notice the "his"? They couldn't even recognise her as a girl.

    The parents took her out of school and took the issue further. The Colorado Civil Rights Division found in favour of Coy Mathis.

    But the underlying issue here is that the school and the community could not even identify her as a girl or refused to.

    Will laws like in California help change this or fix it? No, the underlying discrimination will remain. The laws will certainly ensure the rights of transgender children, but it will not address the underlying issue that causes schools to deny them the right use the appropriate bathrooms. It is not going to address the underlying discrimination that exists. We only have to look at desegregation and the laws that accompanied that to see how the actual discrimination does not go away. What the laws should have also addressed (if they have not) is education and training for teachers, students and parents and the community in general.

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    The reason we need the law is to avoid situations like Coy Mathis. (what an unfortunate name--all considered).

    As pointed out there's no need for rebuilding anything. There will of course be money involved in training staff and educators but if Cal works like most states, the funding for new laws is often included in the next budget bill.

    Here's the actual law, and includes more than just bathrooms:
    Bill Text - AB-1266 Pupil rights: sex-segregated school programs and activities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The reason we need the law is to avoid situations like Coy Mathis. (what an unfortunate name--all considered).

    As pointed out there's no need for rebuilding anything. There will of course be money involved in training staff and educators but if Cal works like most states, the funding for new laws is often included in the next budget bill.

    Here's the actual law, and includes more than just bathrooms:
    Bill Text - AB-1266 Pupil rights: sex-segregated school programs and activities.
    Look, I don't disagree with you that the law will provide protection for transgender children. But I do think that the law itself is just a stop-gap measure and it will not address the actual issue of discrimination and fear. That can only be addressed with education and training. Because the reaction from schools and parents is that of fear. Most probably do not even realise or understand that boys who identify as girls use hormones to restrict the development and growth of their male body parts. So they aren't going to be sex starved rampaging teenage boys that some seem to fear, going into the girl's toilets. Instead, they will be given female hormones which will suppress their male hormones which will restrict things like facial hair and deepening of their voices and instead allow them to grow breasts for example. Most don't even realise that. I would imagine those hormones also restrict their male sex drive.

    Personally I find it bizarre that using a toilet has become such an issue. It shouldn't be. Unless all toilets are out in the open in the US without cubicles or doors, it should not be an issue. I am sure boys also do number 2's at school, so the schools would provide toilets in cubicles to ensure their privacy and that boys toilets do not consist solely of urinals, in the case of girls transgender to boys for example. Nor would a boy who identifies as a girl be using urinals as another example.

    Apply the same rules as applies to adults. Adult transgender use the toilets of the sex they identify with. No one has an issue with it and few people even know or realise it.

    Laws are great, it will provide protection for the children at an institutional level. But it will not address where the fear stems from and I think, personally, that is where the issue is.
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    I am not worried that the transgendered kids would abuse the changes. I worry that the "normal" kids would act badly towards the transgendered kids. We already see that happening as it is. This may sound degrading but honestly, until the mindset of non-transgendered people relax a bit I think a don't ask don't tell policy would be good. Schools should not be asking what sex a kid is but what gender they are and simply address them as the claimed gender of the student. If the kid identifies as a male they should use the men's room, if they identify as a female they should use the women's restroom. I don't think anyone should have to make announcements as to what gender they are any more than they should have to announce their sexuality. If they choose to announce they are transgendered then they take a risk of being picked on just as much as a person who announces they have a third nipple or that they are afraid of the dark. Kids are sick twisted little monsters sometimes and some of them will find any reason in the world to make fun of you and bully you. Keep your personal details to yourself and avoid the headache of being the target of bullies. If I see someone that looks female go into a women's restroom I don't see them being questioned as to whether or not they can prove they are female. Just go in grab a stall and do what you need to do. I imagine it has been going on for a long time without most people even realizing it.

    There was a girl in my gym class that never undressed or showered with the other girls. she was a little bit chubby but not obese. I would hear girls whisper about her and talk bad about her but I always assumed she was just shy or uncomfortable with her body. Lot's of girls are at that age. I didn't like undressing or showering in front of other girls. I never understood how or why you would see groups of three or four giggling teen girls running damn near hand in hand into the shower together. I prefer to shower in private. I'm gonna be washing my ass. I don't want an audience for that. And I certainly don't need a buddy to keep me company. But to each their own. I would wait for the shower to clear out then I'd take mine.

    But this girl that always changed in a bathroom stall and showered behind the curtains after everyone else was gone, may very well have been a transgendered female. If that was the case, there was no harm to me at all that she was allowed to be in our locker room. But if she did have a male body, she still would have had to hide from the rest of us because most of us would have freaked out to see a penis in the girls room.

    So if they make it a law about the bathrooms, then the locker rooms will become an issue. Honestly, there is not going to be an easy solution to this. Until our society is capable of seeing nudity without having an over reactive meltdown over it so that bathrooms and locker rooms can just be coed, then these kids are going to have a tough time no matter what steps are taken.

    Unless they are willing to provide a private bathroom with a shower and a few lockable lockers in it, in every school, this is going to be nearly impossible to fix.

    My college has a few bathrooms that do not have stalls in them. they are unisex and only one toilet and sink in each of them and they are scattered around. They are labeled as family restroom, unisex restroom, or handicapped.
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    how often do people go to a bathroom to take a bath?
    how often do people go to a restroom to rest?
    Does anyone still call 'em powder rooms?

    (ok, so sometimes I'm a tad rad)
    But i like to ask directions to the urinarium(normally used with animals)
    or directions to the deficatorium.

    blank looks---then "where can I piss" etc...

    Some days, i think that i might just be the only sane guy left.
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    @ Tranquille...

    I agree with everything you say. I believe that transgendered children should use the bathroom they feel most comfortable using, but my concern is for their safety. My concern is...will the schools be watching out for these children, so they are not harassed? And I believe that diversity training should be mandatory for all students and their parents, every single start of a new school year. I'm not a fan of the word 'tolerance,' as that sounds like we should just 'tolerate' people that we find different than us. I think a new word needs to be created...

    But, I don't disagree. I didn't expound enough, my concern is that regardless of the end result, that schools maintain a vigilant stance against bullying, offline and online. I honestly think that the main issue isn't with building new bathrooms, etc...although, if kids felt more comfortable, so be it.

    It's in educating kids on diversity...and not tolerating it, but embracing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some days, i think that i might just be the only sane guy left.
    scary thought eh?
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    It seems all options are awkward. If a transgender uses their original gender's bathroom, you've got someone who looks (more or less) female walking into the mens' bathroom, but having male equipment when he/she reaches the stall.

    The alternative of the outwardly female individual going into the ladies' room and then going into a stall and turning out to have male genitalia seems more workable. Probably nobody will see it anyway if they use a stall.

    The only problem is the third possibility: a man in a dress, who doesn't believe them self to be female in any sense, walks into a ladies' room, and uses the opportunity to enjoy a (rather perverse) personal fetish. How do you prosecute that guy? You'd have to be able to prove in court that he doesn't see himself as a woman. How would you possibly prove that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
    If there are two bathrooms, and I have to go...I have used the men's restroom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madanthonywayne View Post
    The law mentioned in the OP seems excessive. Just handle these things on a case by case basis. The small number of people affected hardly warrants rebuilding all of the bathrooms in the country.

    Also, judging by the long lines I always see outside women's restrooms, having unisex bathrooms would really slow things down for us men
    Well, it would then make it much more equal for us women who usually have to WAIT in a long line, while men, well .....it's pretty rare a man EVER has to wait in a line. When you have to go, you have to go, male or female!

    Lots of places already with unisex bathrooms. Usually single however. I have no problem with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
    If there are two bathrooms, and I have to go...I have used the men's restroom.
    Adjusting to having an old man's prostate, on ocassion, I had used the womens xxxxxroom. Once, as I was exiting and a woman was entering, she paused, took a step backward and looked at the sign above the door one more time, a brief moment of eye contact, a quisical look, then we went our seperate ways.

    There's a thought---XXroom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The only problem is the third possibility: a man in a dress, who doesn't believe them self to be female in any sense, walks into a ladies' room, and uses the opportunity to enjoy a (rather perverse) personal fetish. How do you prosecute that guy? You'd have to be able to prove in court that he doesn't see himself as a woman. How would you possibly prove that?
    Privacy violation- he could claim to be closeted in his transsexualism due to harassment from others.

    Optimism is a fine thing. Perhaps in time, attitudes will change as they have for other social issues. But for now, I see such a law as actually placing people into dangerous situations.

    Again- high school girls ain't sweeties. Some may be, but get them in a clique and... whew... watch out.
    Do you really want to put a harassed person in that situation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
    If there are two bathrooms, and I have to go...I have used the men's restroom.
    Adjusting to having an old man's prostate, on ocassion, I had used the womens xxxxxroom. Once, as I was exiting and a woman was entering, she paused, took a step backward and looked at the sign above the door one more time, a brief moment of eye contact, a quisical look, then we went our seperate ways.

    There's a thought---XXroom.
    I like waste extraction room lol. put x's up there and I will think it is a storage room for dumped lovers or a place you gotta be 18 to enter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    But for now, I see such a law as actually placing people into dangerous situations.
    The bills gives the child the choice, and makes it the the school's responsibility to support that choice ontop of the schools existing responsibility to protect them,...they can go to either bathroom. It in not way forcing children into more dangerous situations than they are already in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post

    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.


    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ?
    I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The bills gives the child the choice.
    Well, that's the problem. When you are six years old you don't always make the best choices. Generally the judgment of parents and teachers is better than the judgment of a six year old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    I think what Dave is saying is that you may be able to force that on the kids with assembly programs during school hours but you cannot force the parents to attend. You are not allowed to deny a child education on the grounds of a parent being absent. My mom was never able to attend any school functions when I was a kid because she was always working 12 hour days as I was growing up. I don't remember her even going with us to be registered for school. We would get a ride with someone, get the paperwork and bring it back to her to sign. Then come back on the next day and turn everything in. The days of the ever involved parent are a thing of the past because the economy demands that both parents be working.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    @ seagypsy;I should have added that no, it wouldn't preclude your child from going to school but most kids need to go to orientation, so even just for them, it can be included within that. No, you can't force parents but for a two hour orientation, they might find it beneficial. I'm thinking out loud, these are just ideas. Hopefully, schools will be proactive and not reactive when it comes to these situations, at any rate.
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    Required parent involvement is complex and depend widely on what the topic is. Generally of course there's little to compel a parent to attend certain activities. On other other hand, if and when that involvement becomes necessary for the good of the child to avoid abuse, there's more and more legal reasons to compel their participation. In most states, similar to the WA state, that level requires external agencies beyond the school, such as child protective services, law enforcement and a judge's involvement--most parents cooperate long before it gets to that point. Bottom line is though...yes parents can be made to attend training.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; August 17th, 2013 at 12:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No, you can't let boys go into the girl's restroom and girls in the boy's room. That is just idiotic.
    If there are two bathrooms, and I have to go...I have used the men's restroom.
    Adjusting to having an old man's prostate, on ocassion, I had used the womens xxxxxroom. Once, as I was exiting and a woman was entering, she paused, took a step backward and looked at the sign above the door one more time, a brief moment of eye contact, a quisical look, then we went our seperate ways.

    There's a thought---XXroom.

    *laughing*

    Well I remember auditioning for a touring musical group, and I was SO nervous, and my name was about to be called so I ran to the bathroom, and here I am sitting in the bathroom, and I look down and there is like a size 13 pair of feet in the stall next to me. Oh my god....I was in the men's room. I walked just SO embarrassed!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post

    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.


    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ?
    I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.








    I am already diverse enough to not need diversity training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    another person here, putting words into my mouth. 0_o

    i'm not going to address something i never said. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps. It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    another person here, putting words into my mouth. 0_o

    i'm not going to address something i never said. lol
    Bold and underlined bits. Interpretation notwithstanding, Dave Wilson asked you a legitimate question, there. Given the bits in bold and underline- I can see no words being put in anyones mouth.
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    I never said to force the parents.

    And 'no one can opt out,' is a truth that exists at my employer. I didn't say that for the schools.

    'This doesn't cure bullying,' was meant for that diversity training will not cure the ills of society, but it can help bring about acceptance.

    I do think that with effort, the schools could blend something for parents and students. But, I didn't say force, although, my sentence where I speak of no one can opt out (relating to my work)...might have looked like I was linking the two together.

    So...hope that better explains where I was coming from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post

    Schools need to have a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment of ANYONE. And enforce it.
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    Exactly. And swapping restrooms isn't going to "fix" it.
    Wegs heart is in the right place and her intentions are noble but this simply is not an argument of "Boys will be boys."
    This is about basic human nature and an existing infrastructure and culture. You cannot just download the upgrade patch.

    I mean, how is it that a complete stranger- a man you do not know at all, can stand right next to a ten year old boy at the urinal in a public bath, whip it out and be seen taking a wee and that is ok- it is not public exposure? Because... isn't the effect exactly the same?
    Well the existing idea is- Don't Look.
    So why doesn't that apply if he walks outside and does it? If he did that, everyone goes crazy over the whole affair. But if he does it right next to boys where there is tile, suddenly it's totally acceptable...

    It's because the existing infrastructure and culture is also heavily influenced by cost effectiveness and tolerance and we don't actually stop to think about how stupid it really is. But it is stupid.

    What we have here is a case were some people got a bum deal. It's sad... but so is when a kid is born without legs- or his brain lopsided.
    What happens to the guy who is a hopeless romantic- his lifelong dream was to get married to a loving beautiful woman, have kids, be a family man... But was born with a two inch pecker, ugliest face you ever saw... Or what about the guy whose biggest desire was to be an astronaut, but was born deaf and blind with fragile bones?
    What about that guy who feels in every way like a woman?

    Some people just get born with a bum deal. And we work toward medical advancements but in the meantime, those that exist now or in the past just had to have a sucky life. I mean, we've got pretty good prosthesis now for legs- wasn't always that way. There's that thing where a guy puts a sensor on his tongue and it helps him see directly to the brain, even though his eyes do not function. I mean... it is happening. Gender reassignment is just as difficult as all these other issues and having the high ideal that everyone should just up and love them is contrary to human nature.
    Besides- what happens if a T.G. kid is a complete asshole?

    Kids can be quite cruel. But saying "Zero Tolerance" is required and should be enforced is a futile and impossible task in addition to the harm it actually does to the other kids. It's not just behavior modification, here - but child development. And the more you clamp down, the more these kids are going to find ways of acting out.
    And they will be more cruel when they have to work harder to do it.

    You can't stop it. But what CAN be done is keeping the school counselors informed and up to date and accountable. Hold them to the highest of standards to keep those kids coming under fire sane and alive. To help teach them the strength and courage that they need now and will always need. You cannot protect them from the world. But you can help them to cope with it. They were born with a bum deal. You cannot force everyone else to give and give and give for something that is no more their fault that to the poor kid born that way. You can only teach the kid how to measure up against what he inevitably will always be facing. Let them allow their own strength to shine. Or not.

    If it means letting them use the teachers lounge bathroom once in a while, so be it. But maybe that depends on the kid. Maybe another kid would rather face down those that give him a hard time by not letting them push him out of the restroom.
    And make no mistake, when it comes to cruelty, teenage girls can make teenage boys look like total sweethearts. Putting the T.G. kid in the girls restroom is not always the best bet.


    Maybe another kid will need the comfort of a private bathroom. We had one in our high school that was not T.G. but hermaphrodite. Blanket laws and 'zero tolerance' are just unimpressive. They treat the people as if one rule applies to all, as if there's no escaping their own humanity - humanity for which they are considered wrong. It give no allowance for the actual individuality but most importantly- it just forces the mold instead of really teaching people how to learn and grow up. And it doesn't help the "Victims" learn how to cope, how to stand up, how to rise above or how to stand strong. You can only protect your nest so much... there comes a point where you just have to accept that some folks got a bum deal and some will fall through the cracks.
    but there is zero tolerance for harassment where i work, why do we think that kids deserve less?
    i agree with most of what you say here, but i respectfully disagree as it relates to that.
    no, it won't happen overnight...but there's no reason why kids should expect to be harassed when they go to school.
    teen suicides are on the rise from bullying at school, and online from school classmates.

    and when you look at the schools who allowed this to go on, they claim they had an anti bullying policy in place.
    that's great, but it needs to be enforced.

    schools need to start backing up their policies with actions. 'we have an anti-bullying policy,' ok...what does that mean, exactly?

    but i want to add one thing...
    schools shouldn't have to step in where a parent should be stepping in.
    so there has to be a balance between schools enforcing policies, and parents cooperating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post

    Schools need to have a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment of ANYONE. And enforce it.
    Yes, and when the schools do all this enforcing, the kids just turn on their iPads and start bullying on facebook and twitter.
    Exactly. And swapping restrooms isn't going to "fix" it.
    Wegs heart is in the right place and her intentions are noble but this simply is not an argument of "Boys will be boys."
    This is about basic human nature and an existing infrastructure and culture. You cannot just download the upgrade patch.

    I mean, how is it that a complete stranger- a man you do not know at all, can stand right next to a ten year old boy at the urinal in a public bath, whip it out and be seen taking a wee and that is ok- it is not public exposure? Because... isn't the effect exactly the same?
    Well the existing idea is- Don't Look.
    So why doesn't that apply if he walks outside and does it? If he did that, everyone goes crazy over the whole affair. But if he does it right next to boys where there is tile, suddenly it's totally acceptable...

    It's because the existing infrastructure and culture is also heavily influenced by cost effectiveness and tolerance and we don't actually stop to think about how stupid it really is. But it is stupid.

    What we have here is a case were some people got a bum deal. It's sad... but so is when a kid is born without legs- or his brain lopsided.
    What happens to the guy who is a hopeless romantic- his lifelong dream was to get married to a loving beautiful woman, have kids, be a family man... But was born with a two inch pecker, ugliest face you ever saw... Or what about the guy whose biggest desire was to be an astronaut, but was born deaf and blind with fragile bones?
    What about that guy who feels in every way like a woman?

    Some people just get born with a bum deal. And we work toward medical advancements but in the meantime, those that exist now or in the past just had to have a sucky life. I mean, we've got pretty good prosthesis now for legs- wasn't always that way. There's that thing where a guy puts a sensor on his tongue and it helps him see directly to the brain, even though his eyes do not function. I mean... it is happening. Gender reassignment is just as difficult as all these other issues and having the high ideal that everyone should just up and love them is contrary to human nature.
    Besides- what happens if a T.G. kid is a complete asshole?

    Kids can be quite cruel. But saying "Zero Tolerance" is required and should be enforced is a futile and impossible task in addition to the harm it actually does to the other kids. It's not just behavior modification, here - but child development. And the more you clamp down, the more these kids are going to find ways of acting out.
    And they will be more cruel when they have to work harder to do it.

    You can't stop it. But what CAN be done is keeping the school counselors informed and up to date and accountable. Hold them to the highest of standards to keep those kids coming under fire sane and alive. To help teach them the strength and courage that they need now and will always need. You cannot protect them from the world. But you can help them to cope with it. They were born with a bum deal. You cannot force everyone else to give and give and give for something that is no more their fault that to the poor kid born that way. You can only teach the kid how to measure up against what he inevitably will always be facing. Let them allow their own strength to shine. Or not.

    If it means letting them use the teachers lounge bathroom once in a while, so be it. But maybe that depends on the kid. Maybe another kid would rather face down those that give him a hard time by not letting them push him out of the restroom.
    And make no mistake, when it comes to cruelty, teenage girls can make teenage boys look like total sweethearts. Putting the T.G. kid in the girls restroom is not always the best bet.


    Maybe another kid will need the comfort of a private bathroom. We had one in our high school that was not T.G. but hermaphrodite. Blanket laws and 'zero tolerance' are just unimpressive. They treat the people as if one rule applies to all, as if there's no escaping their own humanity - humanity for which they are considered wrong. It give no allowance for the actual individuality but most importantly- it just forces the mold instead of really teaching people how to learn and grow up. And it doesn't help the "Victims" learn how to cope, how to stand up, how to rise above or how to stand strong. You can only protect your nest so much... there comes a point where you just have to accept that some folks got a bum deal and some will fall through the cracks.
    but there is zero tolerance for harassment where i work, why do we think that kids deserve less?
    i agree with most of what you say here, but i respectfully disagree as it relates to that.
    no, it won't happen overnight...but there's no reason why kids should expect to be harassed when they go to school.
    teen suicides are on the rise from bullying at school, and online from school classmates.

    and when you look at the schools who allowed this to go on, they claim they had an anti bullying policy in place.
    that's great, but it needs to be enforced.

    schools need to start backing up their policies with actions. 'we have an anti-bullying policy,' ok...what does that mean, exactly?

    but i want to add one thing...
    schools shouldn't have to step in where a parent should be stepping in.
    so there has to be a balance between schools enforcing policies, and parents cooperating.
    Absolutely! It is not tolerated in our business either, nor was it tolerated in the theatre!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    but there is zero tolerance for harassment where i work, why do we think that kids deserve less?
    This question assumes that since it is that way in your workplace- it must, therefor, be correct. That is not necessarily the case. Instead of the word, "Correct" you can use the words, "Lawsuit avoidance."
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    but there's no reason why kids should expect to be harassed when they go to school.
    There is a reason: It's our nature. We are animals. That doesn't make it "Correct," either. It is not necessarily "correct" that in Tornado Alley there will be tornadoes. But there will be tornadoes because that is the nature of it.
    If it's not T.G., it might be race. If it's not race, it might be hair color, freckles, or behavior. Hyperactivity or just being annoying.
    See, that is what I mean- Child Development.
    And if you shut them into boxes, they'll want to break out. Act out. Find someway of releasing that inner animal ape behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    teen suicides are on the rise from bullying at school, and online from school classmates.
    Can you provide evidence of this? On the rise in what manner? As measured against what? How are they on the rise considering earlier arguments pointed out that we've adopted all this zero tolerance in the past TEN YEARS in regards to race and religion and what have you and I don't think transgendered kids can account for that rise you say is happening. Can you provide evidence that teen suicides are drastically rising and that it is because of bullying?
    Because in the 1950's- years ago, bullying was a LOT more tolerated than anything in the last twenty. Have kids gotten really, really sensitive? Or has bullying dramatically increased?

    This claim won't be easy to support, I think because you'll need to find resources that don't have Spin to their reporting.

    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    but i want to add one thing...
    schools shouldn't have to step in where a parent should be stepping in.
    Applause!
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    so there has to be a balance between schools enforcing policies, and parents cooperating.
    There has to be some Freedom, too. You can teach kids. You can encourage them. You can somewhat control them, too. But you cannot Dominate them. They will struggle to break free.
    I am not suggesting that we ignore the issue- I am suggesting that the proposed methods for dealing with the issue are problematic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    A simple way to apply it would be if your child is caught bullying any other child, the school could simply issue the parent an ultimatum. Attend the diversity training, or your kid is expelled.

    If your child never bullies anybody then you don't have to attend. If they do bully someone, then you have one and exactly one way to save them. No other form of complaint or petition will be heard. Your petition is that you attended the training.

    The beauty of it is that it's more-or-less self enforcing. If a child is expelled for bullying, and then the parent refuses to go to the training, and then they write to their city hall representative or a member of the school board or someone like that to petition them to do something, the first thing that person is going to ask them is: "Did you agree to attend the anti-bullying training?" If the the parent says "No.", then they're going to say "Then please quit wasting my time. It's obvious you're not serious about this."


    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    [
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    but there's no reason why kids should expect to be harassed when they go to school.
    There is a reason: It's our nature. We are animals. That doesn't make it "Correct," either. It is not necessarily "correct" that in Tornado Alley there will be tornadoes. But there will be tornadoes because that is the nature of it.
    If it's not T.G., it might be race. If it's not race, it might be hair color, freckles, or behavior. Hyperactivity or just being annoying.
    See, that is what I mean- Child Development.
    And if you shut them into boxes, they'll want to break out. Act out. Find someway of releasing that inner animal ape behavior.
    So what you're saying is: the bully gets to act like an ape, and we should be tolerant of that.


    But we shouldn't act like apes? Getting rid of a troublesome ape is how apes respond to troublesome apes. Why don't you just learn to be more tolerant of that?

    Quit trying to make it a one way street. You must take your arguments and apply them in both directions. Bully any kid long enough and it's kind of like torturing a person. If it's severe enough and lasts long enough then sooner or later they'll break. Stronger ones take longer to break than weaker ones, but it's only a difference of time.

    Bully's are effectively eliminating their victims. What possible objection can they raise if society then decides to bully and/or eliminate them? How can an eliminator object to being eliminated?
    Last edited by kojax; August 18th, 2013 at 01:39 AM.
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    [QUOTE=kojax;452180]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    A simple way to apply it would be if your child is caught bullying any other child, the school could simply issue the parent an ultimatum. Attend the diversity training, or your kid is expelled.

    If your child never bullies anybody then you don't have to attend. If they do bully someone, then you have one and exactly one way to save them. No other form of complaint or petition will be heard. Your petition is that you attended the training.

    The beauty of it is that it's more-or-less self enforcing. If a child is expelled for bullying, and then the parent refuses to go to the training, and then they write to their city hall representative or a member of the school board or someone like that to petition them to do something, the first thing that person is going to ask them is: "Did you agree to attend the anti-bullying training?" If the the parent says "No.", then they're going to say "Then please quit wasting my time. It's obvious you're not serious about this."


    I think your thought is a good one, but I don't know if it would fly, frankly.

    I have worked in both Junior and Senior Public Schools. It isn't all the simple, frankly, as families and family situations are not "standard" as in to economics, health and functional/dysfunctional.

    But I think it is a good idea!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    So what you're saying is: the bully gets to act like an ape, and we should be tolerant of that.
    No, not at all. In fact, I specifically said the opposite.
    What I said was that we all, every one of us, act like apes. We're oblivious to it and much of that has to do with being raised in religious environments that convince us that we're special and above the lowly dirty animals.
    But we do act like apes. We hoot wave our arms and mark territory the same way. We follow all of the basic animal behaviors- even if magnified in effect by intellect or heavy population.
    Admitting that we are animals does not mean that we should tolerate certain behaviors.
    Think about it, if an ape has young and that young behaves in a way contrary to that troop/pack/whatevers rules, it gets reprimanded.
    It doesn't get tolerated.

    Nor does it get blanket "Zero Tolerance" policies that inhibit its very nature.

    It is one thing to react to poor behavior and another thing entirely to restrict all behavior with a blanket assumption of guilt and put that much pressure on a group of differing individuals.
    What I am saying is that there already exists the people, the resources and infrastructure to deal with these situations on a case by case basis. The problem is that they are not doing their jobs.

    Again- if you walk into a restaurant and you get poor service, you complain to the management and they either make right or you walk out. They either lose money or adopt a customer satisfaction policy.
    Government run institutions, however, do not operate that way.
    Complaining to the management brings excuses, not results.
    So this is a part of the problem. The principles, school counselors and teachers are not fulfilling the full scope of their duties* and complaints are not making them accountable to do it, rather they take the lazy approach of just slathering basic rules that will probably not be enforced any better than the current ones. This leads to more of them until enough complaints get in declaring that a Zero Tolerance Lawsuit Avoidance policy must be Strictly enforced because nothing's getting done and all of the sudden, all of the students are being inhibited and being slammed with heaftier punishments than necessary for ridiculous reasons...

    Like the five year old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a girls cheek-
    and the student charged with Drug Dealing for giving her friend some Midol.

    This is what STUPID looks like, folks. It's what incompetence, laziness, stupidity and a lack of accountability looks like.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Bully any kid long enough and it's kind of like torturing a person.
    In some cases, yes. It can cause suicide, or social problems that can last for decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If it's severe enough and lasts long enough then sooner or later they'll break.
    Existing policies, existing principals, asst. principals, counselors and teachers should be doing the job and following the procedures already in place- policies and procedures that have been in place for a long time.
    Adding more writing on papers is not going to fix anything.
    Getting people to do their damned jobs is where the solution will be found.
    They get tired and they get lazy and they just don't want to Deal with the issue or maybe they assume it's not so bad or maybe they dislike the victim who is getting bullied.*
    How many teachers does a kid go through throughout their school career?

    So yes, we're animals. And yes, we need to be allowed to follow our nature. Our nature also includes teaching proper behavior. It's deeply engrained in mammals, at least- We raise our young.
    We teach them how to survive in the world, how to get along with others and interact... Take a squirrel out of the nest and raise it among humans and then release it into the wild- it will be rejected by wild squirrels because it won't have been taught Proper Squirrel behavior and etiquette. Believe it or not, it's true.
    I did not say to tolerate bullying. I said we are tolerating laziness and then excusing it by adding more policies as if it's something new and a big deal when, in fact, existing school rules should cover it all quite satisfactorily.

    *This does not mean all teachers are lazy, incompetent or not doing their best to minimize disruptive student behavior or bullying. The over-all trend is that certain behaviors that break school rules are going ignored by many teachers. But I had some very good teachers in high school that would drag you out in the hall and dress you down Drill Sargent style for acting up in class. I also had some teachers that ignored anything that they didn't want to have to cope with.
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    Zero tolerance for bullying goes against the bully's nature?Bullying isn't a "nature," it's learned behavior.Zero tolerance means the school has different consequences in place should there be bullying incidents.Again, it's just an idea that could strike a balance for everyone.Most schools have anti bullying policies but I wonder what they do to enforce those policies. Hmmm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post

    Nor does it get blanket "Zero Tolerance" policies that inhibit its very nature.
    It's true that it's better to issue a few warnings.

    However, I think some people idealize the animal world too much. Tell ourselves the pack doesn't kill or eliminate one another, but that's not really true. A wolf who continuously annoys the other wolves will quite often be rejected from the pack and then he's on his own. More often than not that means he dies. Some lone wolves do ok for themselves. It depends on the wolf.




    It is one thing to react to poor behavior and another thing entirely to restrict all behavior with a blanket assumption of guilt and put that much pressure on a group of differing individuals.
    What I am saying is that there already exists the people, the resources and infrastructure to deal with these situations on a case by case basis. The problem is that they are not doing their jobs.
    They're also somewhat underfunded. I went back to my old highschool to do some volunteer work once, and I was just amazed that those people had once seemed impressive and competent to me.

    I don't think that the public schools necessarily are able to hire the best help.


    Again- if you walk into a restaurant and you get poor service, you complain to the management and they either make right or you walk out. They either lose money or adopt a customer satisfaction policy.
    Government run institutions, however, do not operate that way.
    Complaining to the management brings excuses, not results.
    So this is a part of the problem. The principles, school counselors and teachers are not fulfilling the full scope of their duties* and complaints are not making them accountable to do it, rather they take the lazy approach of just slathering basic rules that will probably not be enforced any better than the current ones. This leads to more of them until enough complaints get in declaring that a Zero Tolerance Lawsuit Avoidance policy must be Strictly enforced because nothing's getting done and all of the sudden, all of the students are being inhibited and being slammed with heaftier punishments than necessary for ridiculous reasons...
    They're responsive if you know the appropriate channels. The trouble is only a few people know those channels. And so that means they're heavily influenced by a small number of parents.


    Like the five year old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a girls cheek-
    and the student charged with Drug Dealing for giving her friend some Midol.

    This is what STUPID looks like, folks. It's what incompetence, laziness, stupidity and a lack of accountability looks like.
    Which in turn results from under-funding.

    You get what you pay for. If you hire an employee at a wage that's just above minimum wage, and they don't do their job, then it's kind of hard to fire them. Not unless you're sure you can find somebody else who will be willing to work for that low pay.

    And you've got to figure that the pool of people willing to work for that wage is going to be mostly people who can't get better paid jobs. And in most cases there's going to be a good reason why they can't get the better paid job.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Bully any kid long enough and it's kind of like torturing a person.
    In some cases, yes. It can cause suicide, or social problems that can last for decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If it's severe enough and lasts long enough then sooner or later they'll break.
    Existing policies, existing principals, asst. principals, counselors and teachers should be doing the job and following the procedures already in place- policies and procedures that have been in place for a long time.
    Well, actually the current policies and procedures haven't been in place all that long. Go back a few decades and teachers would actually physically strike students who misbehaved. And it wasn't as big a deal to permanently expel a student. Education was seen as more of a privilege and less of a right.

    The hand holding, and exhaustively pouring over every possible option to keep a child involved in the system is probably not older than the 1990's really.


    But I had some very good teachers in high school that would drag you out in the hall and dress you down Drill Sargent style for acting up in class. I also had some teachers that ignored anything that they didn't want to have to cope with.
    Yeah, but nowadays that teacher would likely get reprimanded for being emotionally abusive or some other bollocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Zero tolerance for bullying goes against the bully's nature?
    I did not say anything of the kind.
    I said it goes against human nature.
    You can see that is an exact quote of the wording I've used through out.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Bullying isn't a "nature," it's learned behavior.
    This is debatable...
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Zero tolerance means the school has different consequences in place should there be bullying incidents.Again, it's just an idea that could strike a balance for everyone.
    Yes, like charging a five year old with sexual harassment. Fair? Yes. Maybe the world shouldn't be fair all the time...
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Most schools have anti bullying policies but I wonder what they do to enforce those policies. Hmmm.
    Exactly my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    However, I think a lot of people like to kind of idealize the animal world and tell ourselves the pack doesn't kill or eliminate one another, but that's not really true. A wolf who continuously annoys the other wolves will quite often be rejected from the pack and then he's on his own. More often than not that means he dies. Some lone wolves do ok for themselves. It depends on the wolf.
    See... I'm fully aware of that and frankly, I'm totally ok with the idea of human society being that way.
    Most people, however, are not. So I present a moderate approach. But frankly, we're over populated polluting fat bastards. I think us eliminating eachother is quite agreeable. I envy the wolves.

    For this topic- we've got to be all politically correct and not endorse such animalistic naturalism. Oh noes! We can't talk about people dying (which they will inevitably do anyway and rather than being killed in minutes- they'll suffer for months or years of cancer, instead).
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    They're also somewhat underfunded.
    What the hell does that have to do with it? The people are All There, already. The teachers are there, the counselors are there and the principals are all there. Ok, so if they don't have funding for a New Gym, they cannot enforce existing policy? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I don't think that the public schools necessarily are able to hire the best help.
    So, they don't get paid enough to do the job they agreed to do. Hmmm.

    Maybe education should be privatized, taxes that pay for it returned to the taxpayer and kids go to private schools only. If corporations were running it, they'd have a 24 call center for customer service, incentive programs and sign up bonuses.

    I mean, really. You hear about Public Schools being crap all the time but when does bullying in a private school make the news? It makes a difference when you're not comfortable in knowing the funding is allocated- you've got to earn it with customer satisfaction.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Well, actually the current policies and procedures haven't been in place all that long. Go back a few decades and teachers would actually physically strike students who misbehaved.
    We should go back to that. When I was in grade school the principal had a wooden paddle hanging in his office.
    I, for one, never felt its sting.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Yeah, but nowadays that teacher would likely get reprimanded for being emotionally abusive or some other bollocks.
    Yeah and they shouldn't. They did the job and it had a positive effect to give a little negativity.
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    Zero tolerance of bullying goes against human nature? In trying to understand your point, neverfly.
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    No ...we shouldn't go back to corporal punishment. LolOh my!Maybe that was just sarcasm I hope?:-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Zero tolerance of bullying goes against human nature? In trying to understand your point, neverfly.
    Try reading what I write- I mean really. Did I write it as you did?
    No.
    I said "Zero Tolerance Policies" are inhibitive to human nature. That is what I said. If you didn't change my words each and every time, maybe you would have less difficulty in understanding them.

    They are inhibitive to human nature and if you oppress kids like that, they will Act Out More. And I honestly think we're already seeing a bit of that in public schools NOW.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    No ...we shouldn't go back to corporal punishment. LolOh my!Maybe that was just sarcasm I hope?:-)
    No, it wasn't sarcasm.
    What's wrong with it? Is it so horrifying and appalling and unnatural (ooohhh wait... it's much friendlier than the natural world... wait- WHAT!?) to think about spanking an out of control child?
    Coddle, pander and get smarmy all over their wittle feelings and the lil kiddos will just smile an evil smile and manipulate you and then act out aggressively once your back is turned.

    Such super uber honey dripping sweetness is disgusting. A little whack never killed anyone nor is it shown to create psychological harm or whatever Dr Spock nonsense. I guess it's ok if they go through their whole childhood without a little whack only to get beat into the ground by five cops with nightsticks later.
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    Relax...I see now, ok.One correction though; zero tolerance policies don't assume guilt as you assert above.Like someone at work being accused of harassment doesn't mean it's so. There needs to be an investigation as with anything to determine if bullying went on.It isn't a hard and fast rule but it provides consequences and some structure to build upon.
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    No one should be spanking someone else's kids. The slippery slope that will bring with it!

    No x 1000

    Change topic
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    Wegs, this is a reply to one of your posts...that might have gotten lost as I didn't QUOTE it correctly

    Frankly the posting quote in here is one of the worse I have EVER encountered



    SO HERE IS MY POST TO YOU


    I think your thought is a good one, but I don't know if it would fly, frankly.

    I have worked in both Junior and Senior Public Schools. It isn't all the simple, frankly, as families and family situations are not "standard" as in to economics, health and functional/dysfunctional.

    But I think it is a good idea!
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    Slippery slope? It was acceptable at the time and no slopes got slid.
    If a relentless harasser gets paddled, he might stop harassing others AND get to stay in school.

    I've never once spanked my son- because I haven't needed to. To be frank, I am lucky. I've got a mild mannered kid.
    Some kids out there, though, need a heavier hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Change topic
    Here's a fun one that is off topic but slightly on topic:
    A month or so ago, my son was outside riding his bike (residential area) and I was working in the yard. Garage door open, you know... walking back and forth with tools and such while keeping an eye on him.
    But during a brief moment while I was inside the garage hunting for a tool, a cop was patrolling at low speed and drove by the house just as my son went down the drive way and steered into the road. The cop of course pulled alongside him on the bike and told him that for his safety, he should stay out of the road and then continued on his way.

    I walk out of the garage to see my son miserably straddling the bike fearfully looking at me with tears welling up in his eyes. Figuring he fell down or something, I asked what was wrong...
    "I got busted by the police!"
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  96. #95  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    However, I think a lot of people like to kind of idealize the animal world and tell ourselves the pack doesn't kill or eliminate one another, but that's not really true. A wolf who continuously annoys the other wolves will quite often be rejected from the pack and then he's on his own. More often than not that means he dies. Some lone wolves do ok for themselves. It depends on the wolf.
    See... I'm fully aware of that and frankly, I'm totally ok with the idea of human society being that way.
    Most people, however, are not. So I present a moderate approach. But frankly, we're over populated polluting fat bastards. I think us eliminating eachother is quite agreeable. I envy the wolves.

    For this topic- we've got to be all politically correct and not endorse such animalistic naturalism. Oh noes! We can't talk about people dying (which they will inevitably do anyway and rather than being killed in minutes- they'll suffer for months or years of cancer, instead).
    I think those people we term as "bullies" would be the same ones getting kicked out of the wolf pack, not kept in.

    Sometimes the wolf that has the best nose for finding game isn't the one that can win at single combat. The pack values food. Maybe it already has three really good fighters. If fighter #4 starts harassing the food finder, they're not going to kick the food finder out.

    What bullies seem to fail to understand is that that little runt they're picking on matters to somebody. Quite possibly it is somebody society prefers to keep on the inner circle. Or maybe not. But the point is there isn't actually anything unnatural about putting a stop to bullying. What is unnatural is pack members who don't know their place.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    They're also somewhat underfunded.
    What the hell does that have to do with it? The people are All There, already. The teachers are there, the counselors are there and the principals are all there. Ok, so if they don't have funding for a New Gym, they cannot enforce existing policy? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I don't think that the public schools necessarily are able to hire the best help.
    So, they don't get paid enough to do the job they agreed to do. Hmmm.
    Not saying it's right. Just saying not everyone is honorable. Certainly a person should always have professional pride in their work. But some people don't.



    Maybe education should be privatized, taxes that pay for it returned to the taxpayer and kids go to private schools only. If corporations were running it, they'd have a 24 call center for customer service, incentive programs and sign up bonuses.
    If corporations were running it, they'd only bother to educate promising students too. Why should they want the mediocre ones dragging down their performance ratings?


    I mean, really. You hear about Public Schools being crap all the time but when does bullying in a private school make the news? It makes a difference when you're not comfortable in knowing the funding is allocated- you've got to earn it with customer satisfaction.
    You don't hear about private schools because the parents of a child who gets bullied at a private school have no basis to complain. They chose the school. If they don't want their kid getting bullied there, then they're free to remove him/her and send him/her to some other school.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Well, actually the current policies and procedures haven't been in place all that long. Go back a few decades and teachers would actually physically strike students who misbehaved.
    We should go back to that. When I was in grade school the principal had a wooden paddle hanging in his office.
    I, for one, never felt its sting.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Yeah, but nowadays that teacher would likely get reprimanded for being emotionally abusive or some other bollocks.
    Yeah and they shouldn't. They did the job and it had a positive effect to give a little negativity.
    Definitely agree. Coddling makes it almost impossible to control the kids.

    We always try to imagine them as little philosophers, but a lot of kids simply aren't capable of applying any kind of abstract reasoning to their behaviors. You can't just sit them down and talk them into being ashamed of their actions. You need to go one step further and simply humiliate them in front of the others. Then they learn it as a social norm, at least.

    The pain inflicted by a wooden spoon isn't such a major issue. It's getting hit by it with the whole class watching. Maybe even breaking down and crying.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  97. #96  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think those people we term as "bullies" would be the same ones getting kicked out of the wolf pack, not kept in.
    A reason to be 'ok' with humans being that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    What bullies seem to fail to understand is that that little runt they're picking on matters to somebody. Quite possibly it is somebody society prefers to keep on the inner circle. Or maybe not. But the point is there isn't actually anything unnatural about putting a stop to bullying. What is unnatural is pack members who don't know their place.
    Pretending as though I said it is unnatural to put a stop to bullying ignores what I said in my previous post. If you're going to reply to me, I wish you would read and comprehend what I said. I said that in nature, animals correct eachothers behavior or do not tolerate extreme poor behavior.
    Allow me to quote myself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    So yes, we're animals. And yes, we need to be allowed to follow our nature. Our nature also includes teaching proper behavior. It's deeply engrained in mammals, at least- We raise our young.
    We teach them how to survive in the world, how to get along with others and interact... Take a squirrel out of the nest and raise it among humans and then release it into the wild- it will be rejected by wild squirrels because it won't have been taught Proper Squirrel behavior and etiquette. Believe it or not, it's true.
    I did not say to tolerate bullying. I said we are tolerating laziness and then excusing it by adding more policies as if it's something new and a big deal when, in fact, existing school rules should cover it all quite satisfactorily.
    This is not the first time you've presented what I said as the opposite of what I have said. I really wish you would overcome this poor behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Not saying it's right. Just saying not everyone is honorable. Certainly a person should always have professional pride in their work. But some people don't.
    Hmmm... True...
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If corporations were running it, they'd only bother to educate promising students too. Why should they want the mediocre ones dragging down their performance ratings?
    Because paying customers would demand it or take their wallets to the Competitor.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    You don't hear about private schools because the parents of a child who gets bullied at a private school have no basis to complain. They chose the school. If they don't want their kid getting bullied there, then they're free to remove him/her and send him/her to some other school.
    Oh, nonsense. I think it is far more likely that the parents that are paying for Private Schools go in to the office and pound their fists on the table if their kids are getting bullied.
    Heck- I don't put up with poor service or being "bullied" at Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart doesn't cost anywhere near what an education does.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Definitely agree. Coddling makes it almost impossible to control the kids.
    Yes and it's sad, really to see well intentioned and caring people oblivious to the harm they are causing and the exacerbation of problems due to the well intended, but misguided, advocacy of a failing procedure.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    You can't just sit them down and talk them into being ashamed of their actions. You need to go one step further and simply humiliate them in front of the others. Then they learn it as a social norm, at least.
    See, this is the Deep Waters, here.
    Because other kids will do this. And we call it bullying...
    Fact is- if it's minimal and not the extreme and traumatic bullying we all worry about- it does actually work. Even something as simple as a high school girl chastising another girl on her choice of shoes qualifies. It's small and minor- but it's bullying by definition.
    But it also makes that chastised girl choose whether to conform or to dress independently or what. It's child development. And some negative experiences and painful memories have positive influences and productive results.

    But again, the bleeding hearts would love to tear me apart for saying something like, "A little bit of social embarrassment and mild bullying can be good for a growing human being." Big huge fight- flamewar in the thread- Mods ban me exclusively no matter who else said what.
    So screw it.
    I won't say it.
    I'll just say that I COULD have said it.

    >glare<
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The pain inflicted by a wooden spoon isn't such a major issue. It's getting hit by it with the whole class watching. Maybe even breaking down and crying.
    Exactly.

    There are some pains in my life I wouldn't go back and fix, now... even if at the time, I would have acted to prevent them.
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  98. #97  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think those people we term as "bullies" would be the same ones getting kicked out of the wolf pack, not kept in.
    A reason to be 'ok' with humans being that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    What bullies seem to fail to understand is that that little runt they're picking on matters to somebody. Quite possibly it is somebody society prefers to keep on the inner circle. Or maybe not. But the point is there isn't actually anything unnatural about putting a stop to bullying. What is unnatural is pack members who don't know their place.
    Pretending as though I said it is unnatural to put a stop to bullying ignores what I said in my previous post. If you're going to reply to me, I wish you would read and comprehend what I said. I said that in nature, animals correct eachothers behavior or do not tolerate extreme poor behavior.
    Allow me to quote myself:
    If it were that easy to understand your ideas, then there would be no point in talking with you about them. And it would not be as interesting to hear them.

    I'm suggesting that both the wolf pack, and human society, are right to kick out members who don't know their place and behave accordingly. It's a larger organism, but it's not invincible. The wolf pack collectively has needs and can't afford to be keeping wolves around who don't help in fulfilling those needs, or worse: wolves who actually get in the way.

    If one of the four warrior wolves is picking on the pack's food finder, then the pack needs to take action. Status in any sensible wolf pack is determined by a member's importance to the pack, not any one ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    So yes, we're animals. And yes, we need to be allowed to follow our nature. Our nature also includes teaching proper behavior. It's deeply engrained in mammals, at least- We raise our young.
    We teach them how to survive in the world, how to get along with others and interact... Take a squirrel out of the nest and raise it among humans and then release it into the wild- it will be rejected by wild squirrels because it won't have been taught Proper Squirrel behavior and etiquette. Believe it or not, it's true.
    I did not say to tolerate bullying. I said we are tolerating laziness and then excusing it by adding more policies as if it's something new and a big deal when, in fact, existing school rules should cover it all quite satisfactorily.
    This is not the first time you've presented what I said as the opposite of what I have said. I really wish you would overcome this poor behavior.
    You make it sound like the squirrel's acceptance or non-acceptance is based on arbitrary stuff like "etiquette".


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If corporations were running it, they'd only bother to educate promising students too. Why should they want the mediocre ones dragging down their performance ratings?
    Because paying customers would demand it or take their wallets to the Competitor.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    You don't hear about private schools because the parents of a child who gets bullied at a private school have no basis to complain. They chose the school. If they don't want their kid getting bullied there, then they're free to remove him/her and send him/her to some other school.
    Oh, nonsense. I think it is far more likely that the parents that are paying for Private Schools go in to the office and pound their fists on the table if their kids are getting bullied.
    Heck- I don't put up with poor service or being "bullied" at Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart doesn't cost anywhere near what an education does.
    Private schools would cater to niche markets. There are some people who do want their kid in an environment where bullying is allowed (usually parents of children who are bullies.)

    If you object to having your kid bullied, but the school is one that caters to bullies, then your objection would go unheard. Or rather, they might be kind enough to refer you to a "no bullies" school.

    Think about a biker bar. How far would you get complaining to management that one of the bikers had said something insulting to you if you were in one of those bars? You could threaten to take your business elsewhere, and the owner would probably just nod and say that is a good idea. But at a family restaurant, the person who said something insulting might be asked to either apologize or leave.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Definitely agree. Coddling makes it almost impossible to control the kids.
    Yes and it's sad, really to see well intentioned and caring people oblivious to the harm they are causing and the exacerbation of problems due to the well intended, but misguided, advocacy of a failing procedure.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    You can't just sit them down and talk them into being ashamed of their actions. You need to go one step further and simply humiliate them in front of the others. Then they learn it as a social norm, at least.
    See, this is the Deep Waters, here.
    Because other kids will do this. And we call it bullying...
    Fact is- if it's minimal and not the extreme and traumatic bullying we all worry about- it does actually work. Even something as simple as a high school girl chastising another girl on her choice of shoes qualifies. It's small and minor- but it's bullying by definition.
    But it also makes that chastised girl choose whether to conform or to dress independently or what. It's child development. And some negative experiences and painful memories have positive influences and productive results.

    But again, the bleeding hearts would love to tear me apart for saying something like, "A little bit of social embarrassment and mild bullying can be good for a growing human being." Big huge fight- flamewar in the thread- Mods ban me exclusively no matter who else said what.
    So screw it.
    I won't say it.
    I'll just say that I COULD have said it.

    >glare<
    This brings up an important difference between "bullying" and imposing order. Imposing order is a double edged sword. The governing body threatens to harm you in some way if you don't do what it wants, but also promises to protect you from having to conform to the demands of any other governing body if you obey it. That way you have one master instead of several.

    Imagine if 10 different governments all demanded income taxes from you. (In fact in the USA many states have income taxes, so there are two governments separately taxing you.)

    What if each government wanted 20% of your income? Doing some quick math, that would result in having to pay a total of 200%.

    Bullies are like additional governments separately demanding taxes. The mainstream government does well to put a stop to them.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm suggesting that both the wolf pack, and human society, are right to kick out members who don't know their place and behave accordingly. It's a larger organism, but it's not invincible. The wolf pack collectively has needs and can't afford to be keeping wolves around who don't help in fulfilling those needs, or worse: wolves who actually get in the way.

    If one of the four warrior wolves is picking on the pack's food finder, then the pack needs to take action. Status in any sensible wolf pack is determined by a member's importance to the pack, not any one ability.
    I do not disagree at all- and it's interesting because humans and wolves and apes alike partake in this social behavior.

    But my argument was never against it.

    It was against blanket policies and Zero Tolerance.

    In the ape troop or the wolf pack, all things are reacted to or governed by a case by case basis. A human similarity would be tribal societies, such as my tribe, Lakota (Sioux).
    Disputes were handled among the people and when they could not resolve it, it was brought before an elder or a chief. It was then weighed and discussed.
    For the tribe as a whole, the elders would discuss and weigh issues before reaching a decision and would ask for the words of the people in the tribe and listen to their thoughts.
    When the tribe had dispute with another tribe, perhaps the Chippewa, each tribes elders would meet and discuss.
    Disputes were often settled by a competition similar to Lacrosse. Rarely, war happened. But in the times of no war, peace was celebrated and revered with Pow Wow.

    The Blanket Policing and Zero Tolerance is not about weighing judgments, promoting understanding or growth.
    It is about silencing a political issue. It does not resolve an individuals issue, it puts all people into One container and treats all people as if the same treatment, same resolution, same compensation should settle them. But people are different from one another.
    People want to be heard. Understood. They want a chance to present their case and stand up for themselves, too. Treating people, especially hot blooded children and teenagers in such a manner can and has a strong likelihood of making them resentful, unappeased and less likely to learn a life lesson and more likely to blame others or the system or even, the victim.
    Because they were blanketed and smothered instead of being allowed to speak, allowed to be confronted by their victim.
    The infrastructure and personnel are already in place- No Major changes would be necessary to enforce their doing of the job they are already assigned and following the guidelines already in place. Again the adoption of these "new" policies are nothing more than showboating.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    You make it sound like the squirrel's acceptance or non-acceptance is based on arbitrary stuff like "etiquette".
    Did I choose the wrong word? Maybe you can offer a better one?
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Private schools would cater to niche markets. There are some people who do want their kid in an environment where bullying is allowed (usually parents of children who are bullies.)
    This is possible... I guess a series of regional studies would need to be done to really reach an educated opinion on the ideas viability.
    Is there another developed country that has privatized education for grade school to compare against?
    Last edited by Neverfly; August 20th, 2013 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Fixed quotes
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  100. #99  
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    @ babe: I agree about the quoting lol I thought I was alone in that sentiment. I think that there is a healthy balance as to what the school could do and how it could include parents to cooperate. Change takes time but it could be a start. What strikes me as sad is how much responsibility society places on schools to teach moral conduct...but for the safety of others, it has been born out if necessity. Hilary Clinton did say..."it takes a village." With funding being cut in the American educational system, it just squeezes schools even more. there are no simple easy answers. :/

    @ Neverfly: I think you story of your son is great. Aw, kids say the most innocent things sometimes.

    Re: corporal punishment...I won't debate that. It's a bad idea and always was. There was a time when women couldn't vote and everyone during that time period seemed to accept it, too. But it was wrong. Corporal punishment was acceptable because ppl didnt know better. spanking kids teaches nothing but just elicits fear of the spanking. Corporal punishment only breeds fear and humiliation and the slippery slope would be in the form of lawsuits over the misuse of it. Plus if you think parents will balk at sitting through a video on how to embrace diversity, imagine the backlash if corporal punishment came back!

    The purpose of school is for learning, getting a decent education. The question here should be what is the best way to allow all students this opportunity while keeping them safe?
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  101. #100  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    @ babe: I agree about the quoting lol I thought I was alone in that sentiment. I think that there is a healthy balance as to what the school could do and how it could include parents to cooperate. Change takes time but it could be a start. What strikes me as sad is how much responsibility society places on schools to teach moral conduct...but for the safety of others, it has been born out if necessity. Hilary Clinton did say..."it takes a village." With funding being cut in the American educational system, it just squeezes schools even more. there are no simple easy answers. :/

    @ Neverfly: I think you story of your son is great. Aw, kids say the most innocent things sometimes.

    Re: corporal punishment...I won't debate that. It's a bad idea and always was. There was a time when women couldn't vote and everyone during that time period seemed to accept it, too. But it was wrong. Corporal punishment was acceptable because ppl didnt know better. spanking kids teaches nothing but just elicits fear of the spanking. Corporal punishment only breeds fear and humiliation and the slippery slope would be in the form of lawsuits over the misuse of it. Plus if you think parents will balk at sitting through a video on how to embrace diversity, imagine the backlash if corporal punishment came back!

    The purpose of school is for learning, getting a decent education. The question here should be what is the best way to allow all students this opportunity while keeping them safe?
    Parents should be the ones spanking their kids. And the ones that are ok with kids being paddled at school can sign a waiver to allow it. My mom signed it and I got paddled. But a bunch of whack jobs that never had kids of their own got their panties in a bunch and decided it was bad. Then we got into the age of frivolous law suits. At least you are clear that the slippery slope is one of lawsuits and didn't claim kids would be damaged because of it. I was paddled in school and nothing came of it. When I was little, and where I grew up, if you got paddled at school, you got it at home too. And yes it does create fear of paddling. That is the incentive to not be an ass. Humiliation and/or fear is a great deterrent to misbehaving. When kids got the idea they could call the cops on their parents is when parents lost control of their kids. As things are, we may as well just bend over and shove our heads up our asses and let kids take over. When they do, guess what, those who misbehave get their asses beat. And far worse than a spanking. Kids don't mind spanking. They just want to be the ones doing it.
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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