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  • Yes, I support the content of the bill.

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Thread: Transgender Rights

  1. #201  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Every "transgender" "restroom" here is just a men's room with a different sign.

    no retrofitting needed

    I've a friend who likes to wear a dress. He still used the "mens" room.
    and stalls are the norm.

    (trying to picture a woman using a urinal)
    That's not what the California bill says, though. It says he can go in the men's room or the women's room, what ever he pleases. So can some smartass who just want to ogle the girls. All he has to do is claim he's transgendered.
    you have not actually read the content of the bill have you. Anyone that is trans* will have to talk to the school administration and have letters from their doctor specifying that they are indeed trans* PRIOR to being given the accommodation of choosing which restroom they use.
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  2. #202  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The reason we need the law is to avoid situations like Coy Mathis. (what an unfortunate name--all considered).

    As pointed out there's no need for rebuilding anything. There will of course be money involved in training staff and educators but if Cal works like most states, the funding for new laws is often included in the next budget bill.

    Here's the actual law, and includes more than just bathrooms:
    Bill Text - AB-1266 Pupil rights: sex-segregated school programs and activities.
    Look, I don't disagree with you that the law will provide protection for transgender children. But I do think that the law itself is just a stop-gap measure and it will not address the actual issue of discrimination and fear. That can only be addressed with education and training. Because the reaction from schools and parents is that of fear. Most probably do not even realise or understand that boys who identify as girls use hormones to restrict the development and growth of their male body parts. So they aren't going to be sex starved rampaging teenage boys that some seem to fear, going into the girl's toilets. Instead, they will be given female hormones which will suppress their male hormones which will restrict things like facial hair and deepening of their voices and instead allow them to grow breasts for example. Most don't even realise that. I would imagine those hormones also restrict their male sex drive.

    Personally I find it bizarre that using a toilet has become such an issue. It shouldn't be. Unless all toilets are out in the open in the US without cubicles or doors, it should not be an issue. I am sure boys also do number 2's at school, so the schools would provide toilets in cubicles to ensure their privacy and that boys toilets do not consist solely of urinals, in the case of girls transgender to boys for example. Nor would a boy who identifies as a girl be using urinals as another example.

    Apply the same rules as applies to adults. Adult transgender use the toilets of the sex they identify with. No one has an issue with it and few people even know or realise it.

    Laws are great, it will provide protection for the children at an institutional level. But it will not address where the fear stems from and I think, personally, that is where the issue is.
    A large portion of the restroom segment is to address the very very uncomfortable situation wherein a trans* individual is currently forced to use the restroom opposite of what they identify as. This makes for a very uncomfortable/scary situation for many of them.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  3. #203  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The only problem is the third possibility: a man in a dress, who doesn't believe them self to be female in any sense, walks into a ladies' room, and uses the opportunity to enjoy a (rather perverse) personal fetish. How do you prosecute that guy? You'd have to be able to prove in court that he doesn't see himself as a woman. How would you possibly prove that?
    Privacy violation- he could claim to be closeted in his transsexualism due to harassment from others.

    Optimism is a fine thing. Perhaps in time, attitudes will change as they have for other social issues. But for now, I see such a law as actually placing people into dangerous situations.

    Again- high school girls ain't sweeties. Some may be, but get them in a clique and... whew... watch out.
    Do you really want to put a harassed person in that situation?
    not taking steps due to possible reaction from a small group is not acceptable. There is training involved in the ball already, and many of my generation and younger are MUCH more open to LGBT peers.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  4. #204  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The bills gives the child the choice.
    Well, that's the problem. When you are six years old you don't always make the best choices. Generally the judgment of parents and teachers is better than the judgment of a six year old.
    So you are suggesting 6 year old do not innately know what gender they are mentally? I can say for that you more then likely knew your gender when you were six and your orientation to.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  5. #205  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    As can purposely avoiding anything that my diversify your knowledge of other Dave.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  6. #206  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are discussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise.

    Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    As can purposely avoiding anything that my diversify your knowledge of other Dave.
    If, I avoid all manner of diversity stuff, I will get along just fine.
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  7. #207  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Parents should also have to attend the diversity training, too. Sorry, but that should actually become a standard, just like in theworkplace.
    So, what if parents refuse all this diversity training ? Are you going to suggest another law, to make it happen ? I have never been on a diversity training course in my life, and I never will.
    The past two employers I've worked for, diversity training is part of orientation. No one can opt out. Company policies are disycussed, and videos are shown to better illustrate all types of harassment, sexual or otherwise. Schools could adopt a similar policy of blending it in with orientation for students and parents. How in depth they get, is up to the needs of the school and its students.This doesn't cure bullying and resolve ignorance, but it can help bring about acceptance perhaps.It doesn't need to be cumbersome or a logistical nightmare. And I think it would be well received. Just my thoughts on it anyway.
    If you think, that you can bully parents into accepting diversity training, then you are way off the mark. You may think that compulsory diversity training for parents, will bring acceptance, for whatever diversity that you want to talk about, but in the real world it will bring about a whole lot of resentment. Compulsory diversity training can be very counter productive.
    As can purposely avoiding anything that my diversify your knowledge of other Dave.
    If, I avoid all manner of diversity stuff, I will get along just fine.
    why do you oppose diversity "education?"
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  8. #208  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    If, I avoid all manner of diversity stuff, I will get along just fine.
    Why exactly do you feel the need to do so though? Do differences scare you that much?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  9. #209  
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    While I disagree with Dave's view of diversity itself, if his view has even been clearly stated rather than implied or assumed, I agree with him that you cannot force people to change their opinions on diversity. Forcing them into diversity training is as oppressive as forcing people in to religious training, brainwashing camps, or any other thought police scenario. Part of being a proponent of diversity is accepting that not all people will appreciate or even tolerate diversity. This is why we teach tolerance. Tolerance is really all anyone can ask. We have to accept that some people will be racist and allow them to be racist, so long as their racist views are not inflicted on others. Meaning they do not act on their feelings by beating the hell out of someone of a race they don't like. If they want to sit at home or in their vehicle and use racial slurs all day long and yap on for hours about why they think all of one group or another should be exterminated, that's their right, so long as they don't cause action on those thoughts to be acted upon. They have the right to be offensive and others have hte right to be offended. But we do not have the right to impose on the rights of another. And thought control via mandatory diversity training is imposing on the rights of those who do not like diversity. In a privately owned company the company can require such a thing, but in a state run institution, where people have mandatory attendance, they do not have the right to require that. Like any other group of people out there that gets picked on, these kids are gonna have to toughen up. And parents need to start teaching their kids to disregard ignorant remarks. Give them some emotional strength. I got bullied really bad in school too. And I wasn't gay, a racial minority or anything like that. I just wouldn't put out. And didn't talk much. There isn't a person on this planet that hasn't at some point been treated like or made to feel like an outcast or unwanted person at some point. It's better to learn how to deal with it when you are a kid and still have your parents there than to have it happen for the first time as an adult and have no idea how to handle rejection. Only to find out at that point that you are a psychopath willing to kill someone who rejects you. A person has to taste rejection and ridicule before they know if they can handle it. Better to find out they can't while they are young enough to do something about it.

    This is just my opinion and I am sure many of you will disagree. But I am a realist. Not every child in the world will make it to adulthood. Kids die every day and in every way just like adults do. We, parents, either give them the emotional fortitude to survive, or find ourselves sniveling at their funeral later on, or worse their prison sentencing after having sent multiple other children to their funerals.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  10. #210  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson;457102

    [/QUOTE
    If, I avoid all manner of diversity stuff, I will get along just fine.
    Why?
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  11. #211  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So you are suggesting 6 year old do not innately know what gender they are mentally? I can say for that you more then likely knew your gender when you were six and your orientation to.
    I think they have a pretty good idea. What will they do with that information? Will they lie about it for reasons of popularity or mischief? Will it confuse them and cause them to want to have a different gender identity? At six it's hard to say, because their sense of right and wrong isn't fully developed.

    Note this isn't true just for sexual identity; it's true for everything. That's why parents and teachers, rather than six year olds, get to set the rules in schools and at home.
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  12. #212  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So you are suggesting 6 year old do not innately know what gender they are mentally? I can say for that you more then likely knew your gender when you were six and your orientation to.
    I think they have a pretty good idea. What will they do with that information? Will they lie about it for reasons of popularity or mischief? Will it confuse them and cause them to want to have a different gender identity? At six it's hard to say, because their sense of right and wrong isn't fully developed.

    Note this isn't true just for sexual identity; it's true for everything. That's why parents and teachers, rather than six year olds, get to set the rules in schools and at home.
    While that MAY be a possibility for a small segment of the Trans* population it is NOT true for the majority, who almost invariably want to just feel comfortable and live as the gender they are mentally and not be forced to be the gender there chromosomes gave them.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  13. #213  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    While that MAY be a possibility for a small segment of the Trans* population it is NOT true for the majority, who almost invariably want to just feel comfortable and live as the gender they are mentally and not be forced to be the gender there chromosomes gave them.
    It's true for children of ANY sexual orientation/identity. Not because they are "members of the trans population" but because they are children.

    Transgender children face a lot of challenges; a lot of decisions have to get made as to how to best support them and how to help them grow into their bodies and their lives. Oftentimes children will not agree with such decisions - again, not because they are transgender, but because they are children, and six year olds are often not well prepared to make such decisions. Their parents (primarily) and school officials (secondarily) are the best people to make such decisions. Government bureaucrats in a city 500 miles away from the school are the worst people to make such decisions.
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  14. #214  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    While that MAY be a possibility for a small segment of the Trans* population it is NOT true for the majority, who almost invariably want to just feel comfortable and live as the gender they are mentally and not be forced to be the gender there chromosomes gave them.
    It's true for children of ANY sexual orientation/identity. Not because they are "members of the trans population" but because they are children.

    Transgender children face a lot of challenges; a lot of decisions have to get made as to how to best support them and how to help them grow into their bodies and their lives. Oftentimes children will not agree with such decisions - again, not because they are transgender, but because they are children, and six year olds are often not well prepared to make such decisions. Their parents (primarily) and school officials (secondarily) are the best people to make such decisions. Government bureaucrats in a city 500 miles away from the school are the worst people to make such decisions.
    What decisions are you specifically referring to?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What decisions are you specifically referring to?
    Pretty much everything. What they wear. What they eat. Who they play with. Where they pee. Whether they take baths or not. When they go to sleep. How much TV they watch and what they watch. What they read. Whether or not they take a nap. I am in favor of parents and secondarily teachers, not government bureaucrats, making those decisions.
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  16. #216  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What decisions are you specifically referring to?
    Pretty much everything. What they wear. What they eat. Who they play with. Where they pee. Whether they take baths or not. When they go to sleep. How much TV they watch and what they watch. What they read. Whether or not they take a nap. I am in favor of parents and secondarily teachers, not government bureaucrats, making those decisions.
    so their parents get to force them to be the gender the parents want them to be rather then letting them pick? You never got to pick cloths when you were 6? And the parents are making the decision, with the child and their pediatricians advice.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  17. #217  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    [so their parents get to force them to be the gender the parents want them to be rather then letting them pick?
    No, the parents get to decide what's best for their kids.

    When you were a kid, did your parents get to force you to do your homework instead of letting you freely decide the course of your own life? How about brushing your teeth? Did they get to force their own hygiene values on you, or did they respect your right to make your own decisions on dental care?

    You never got to pick cloths when you were 6?
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I didn't get to wear the Spiderman costume to school, and sometimes I had to wear nice clothes for special events. Somehow I survived that trauma.

    And the parents are making the decision, with the child and their pediatricians advice.
    Good! Then we don't need this law.
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  18. #218  
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    Have you ever read what the wording of the law is and what it does?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  19. #219  
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    Have you ever read what the wording of the law is and what it does?
    Yes, from the links in the first thread.
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  20. #220  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Have you ever read what the wording of the law is and what it does?
    Yes, from the links in the first thread.
    Form you comments it doesnt appear that you did, or you dont understand it.

    Please summarize what you understand the law to be doing.
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  21. #221  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    If, I avoid all manner of diversity stuff, I will get along just fine.
    Why exactly do you feel the need to do so though? Do differences scare you that much?
    I get along with all manner of people. I do not need some dude to tell me how to think , or what to think.
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  22. #222  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So you are suggesting 6 year old do not innately know what gender they are mentally? I can say for that you more then likely knew your gender when you were six and your orientation to.
    I think they have a pretty good idea. What will they do with that information? Will they lie about it for reasons of popularity or mischief? Will it confuse them and cause them to want to have a different gender identity? At six it's hard to say, because their sense of right and wrong isn't fully developed.

    Note this isn't true just for sexual identity; it's true for everything. That's why parents and teachers, rather than six year olds, get to set the rules in schools and at home.
    My personal opinion is that most six year olds have a better idea of right and wrong than most grown adults.

    After all, in my opinion, right and wrong are figments of the imagination and 6 year olds are great at using theirs.
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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