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Thread: "Conspiracy theory", a flavor of ad hominem

  1. #1 "Conspiracy theory", a flavor of ad hominem 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Conspiracies are historical facts, in addition to the countless conspiracies that were never recorded because they usually are secret by their very nature. From power struggles in the Roman Empire to Feudal England, from the Byzantine Empire to the alleys of Medici's Florence, From Organized Crime to Money Laundering, From the British Empires Opium Wars to Cocaine Cartels of Columbia, Agents and Saborteurs, Espionage, Agent Provocateur, from Assassinations in the Japanese Shogunate to Poison of former USSR Agents to Murder by US Predator Drones. It is both 'naive in appearance' and 'belittlement of a kind' to use the phrase "Conspiracy Theories" and "Conspiracy Theorist" to question someone's credibility, this bears similarities to ad hominem of a kind, in my opinion.

    The Golf of Tonkin incident that was used to justify a war that caused over a million people to die (including over 50,000 American solider, for those who value the lives of trained murderers ~people trained to lovingly kill other people with environmentally friendly ordinance~ above that of children), was a Fabrication, a LIE told by the Military, the Government, AND the "free" *Media*. War virtually always starts with Propaganda, Lies told to the people whether by the "free" media or "official sources". Planning for the Wars and elaboration of HOAXES and DECEPTION to fool the Naive public that negate the very idea they could be Lied to as a "conspiracy theory", is a Conspiracy, along with all the other types of conspiracies. Reading "Operation Northwood" shows examples of deceptions that could have been used to justify a war with Cuba, the pattern is that a few people know the truth and everyone else goes along, the False Flags of Operation Northwoods are 'designed' to fool the public, the government itself, foreign governments, the military. It is made possible by hierarchy and compartmentalization (and secrecy) among many mechanisms. Even Generals can be clueless, General Smedley Butler never knew for sure while in service that "War is a Racket", just like Smedley Butler, Chain of Command Hierarchy Brass from the Pentagon can also be clueless as can be interpreted from an Interview of General Clark by Charlie Rose. The biggest lies are easier to pull apparently, because the public discards as unbelievable any hint the Lie is a lie, allowing perpetrators to get away with amazing Plot Holes the size of a Goodyear Blimp, like the BBC screwing up and announcing the WTC7 (which was a controlled demolition for anyone thats not mentally locked) ahead of time while it was in the freaking background, this in the future will be seen as the textbook example of the incredible power of Propaganda when people can deflect reality they are staring at and ignore it, because it doesnt fit their (naive/faithful/trusting/official) view.

    Governments (power structures) abusing their power are also an historical reality. Power corrupts, which often translates in Power being used to leverage more power (often the mechanisms are money, hierarchy and secrecy/control of information). We are seeing this slide down the slippery slope in slow motion in front of our very eyes since the 80s, the slow motion is incremental and deceptive, and allowing abuses that would have been considered unacceptable abject totalitarian abuse when Kennedy was President. Imagine the reaction if in the days following the speech in which Kennedy said
    "Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment."
    a senator would publicly ask for a bill that would have TSA checkpoints and searches Indefinite detention without trial, Murder of US citizens secretly accused of a crime, Torture, Wiretap of citizens, Spying on the Press, people would have cried out this is Police State USSR Bill, with good reason, because we are seeing police State being erected in front of our very eyes, with capabilities that Insoc of 1984 could only dream of.

    (Note the Irony that all of this has occurred while people were fully armed, because they were not informational/Epistemology armed).


    Last edited by icewendigo; July 3rd, 2013 at 11:59 AM.
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  3. #2  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Speaking of ad homs...
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    trained murderers


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  4. #3  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    What would be a more suitable term? Historical theorists? Event theorists? Conspiracies aren't historical facts, while some of them end up being true, many others turn out to be speculations backed up with fallacies.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    What would be a more suitable term?
    My suggestion is that You do not need an ad hominem label or word or catch phrase, instead of falling for the debate 'about' the messenger, debate the facts, the idea, the message instead.
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  6. #5  
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    The majority of those "trained murderers" were draftees, only in the army because failure to comply with the draft would earn them a prison sentence and a lifetime bar to employment in virtually any decent job. Few of those that volunteered had any notion that they were volunteering to kill children. Nowhere on the recruiting posters did it say "baby killers wanted". I have a big problem with the Johnson administration and others escalating this senseless war, but blaming the line troops at the sharp end for a situation they had no control over is nothing but rabid hate mongering.
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  7. #6  
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    [QUOTE=icewendigo;436655]
    What would be a more suitable term?
    Soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors, many of them drafted, obeying the orders of the elected leader of the government.

    You derailed your own thread.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    "is nothing but"
    Right. Right. Theres nothing other that that. And the pressure to end the war came from

    a) because its immoral to kill other humans, including women and children?
    b) because US Soldiers were being killed?

    I dont want to rain on your parade, but the reason I prod and poke you with this banter is not to put blame on the soldiers (in which case you have to apply this to Nazi Soldiers btw), but on the Warmongering part of the culture that worships guns and war (toy guns, etc, etc), and drinks war propaganda kool aid and asks for more, and whose main Vietnam complaint (generally speaking) often revolves around that it lost the war and the soldiers didnt get a hero's welcome. Look at the movie Platoon, it doesnt give a shit about millions of people killed, the US Soldiers going to the other side of the planet to wage War are portrayed as the good guys, the people, the peasants that LIVE THERE are portrayed as the ENEMY, if the US would have won it would have been a great war with flags and parades, nothing sad about killing millions of people. I hope you get the idea.

    There ARE people in the US (and other countries if they have an equivalent) who DO see the Vietnam memorial and Soldiers that died as THE main reason why Vietnam was "bad", its for those people that I say, that if they appear not to give a crap about human life outside their own country, they should at least avoid the War Racket for the soldiers who do the killing. (Last I checked the barber in Santa Barbara didnt kill and wasnet trained to kill, nor did people who went to jail as conscientious objectors).

    Wars without heavy military casualties are trivialized, it is a militaristic mind set that needs to be challenged
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 3rd, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    "You derailed your own thread."
    Im afraid you are right on that one

    I should have made a separate anti-militarist and anti-sugar-coating-murder-by-military-euphemism thread


    ("Soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors" this sounds nice but they need to take some part in the responsibility, I was "just" following orders is getting old and is in part why all wars are being fought and why millions of humans die, unless they can say that geriatric Rumsfeld and Cheney "forced" them do it, the blind mindless following the hierarchy is part of the problem)


    The core problems are systemic, and people have to start to object to hierarchy, secrecy, (and money when they eventually figure it out), thats in part why Snowden is a Hero, because he willing to risk a job and his comfort and risks jail by going against a powerful hierarchy, he did NOT just say "well I was just following orders"
    (~so you asked peasants to dig a trench, line up, and mowed them down with a machine gun, is that right?
    - Well, I was just following orders you know, its not my fault, there wasnt a sign saying I be mass killing villagers/bombing/organge agent dumping/depleted uranium shelling/etc when I was drafted/joined~).

    But, indeed, calling Solders "trained murderers" was a mistake, I should indeed condemn the actions soldiers do, and the unacceptable arguments used to justify the war crimes / crimes against humanity they commit and that the ruler are equally guilty of, as well as the system that needs to be changed in order to find permanent solutions.
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 3rd, 2013 at 03:12 PM.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "is nothing but"
    Right. Right. Theres nothing other that that. And the pressure to end the war came from

    a) because its immoral to kill other humans, including women and children?
    b) because US Soldiers were being killed?
    Both played a large role in getting us out of Vietnam.

    I don't want to rain on your parade, but the reason I prod and poke you with this banter is not to put blame on the soldiers...
    Than why did you use inflammable language to describe them....they were not part of the problem, even as you think the problem was--they were, for the most part, not part of that war making culture--a good number of them were not there by choice and wanted to end the war as much, if not more, than their loved ones at home. (and today most Soldiers want no part of war--especially those they have seen some of it).
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  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Than why did you use inflammable language to describe them....they were not part of the problem, even as you think the problem was--they were, for the most part, not part of that war making culture--a good number of them were not there by choice and wanted to end the war as much, if not more, than their loved ones at home. (and today most Soldiers want no part of war--especially those they have seen some of it).

    agreed, the language used was distracting from my point

    (if there were "some"
    conscientious objectors the culture may have discouraged it and many people acted in accordance with the social environment and available information/point of view, which makes Conscientious objectors and Whistleblowers even more praise worthy.)

    The culture of compliance with hierarchic authority and of war needs to be changed/updated as is the system that fosters the problems


    So to make amends, if anyone dropped a bomb on a wedding party killing a dozen civilians, just because you were told to and just followed orders and didnt want to object based on basic morality nor risk going to jail, let me be clear, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. This needs to be applied both ways though, which means it should apply (generally speaking) to Nazi soldiers that invade European countries or any soldiers that bomb US civilians and kill men women and children because they are "just" following orders, right? Its the system that needs to change, its not a 'its not fascism when we do it' 'bad for others but good for us' situation, correct?



    (Crap me the militarism, its tough to keep quiet and not rant and its counter productive, must hold back)
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 3rd, 2013 at 06:27 PM.
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  12. #11  
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    [QUOTE=Lynx_Fox;436690]
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    What would be a more suitable term?
    Soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors, many of them drafted, obeying the orders of the elected leader of the government.

    You derailed your own thread.
    It may have been unintentional, but it had the ironic effect of showing how ad hominem works. Oh God! He doesn't approve of soldiers!!!! Disbelieve everything he says. He holds one wrong opinion!!!! All his opinions must therefore be wrong!!! Every last one of them!!!

    If such a person says the sky is blue, it must therefore be purple!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    , the False Flags of Operation Northwoods are 'designed' to fool the public, the government itself, foreign governments, the military
    It's good that you include the government fooling itself. It's easy for people to think the government can't fool itself. It comes from excessively constructed thinking. "The Government" is an object/person/thing. How can a thing fool itself?

    Well that thing is actually composed of many smaller things (or actually people), each with their own separate personalities, views, and minds that can be fooled by things they see or hear.

    Furthermore, "The Government" has no unified purpose. It has a policies, and declared objectives, but ultimately each individual person in the government has their own separate, and independent, reasons for showing up for work in the morning. Most of them are just trying to make a living.

    We are seeing this slide down the slippery slope in slow motion in front of our very eyes since the 80s, the slow motion is incremental and deceptive, and allowing abuses that would have been considered unacceptable abject totalitarian abuse when Kennedy was President. Imagine the reaction if in the days following the speech in which Kennedy said
    "Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment."
    a senator would publicly ask for a bill that would have TSA checkpoints and searches Indefinite detention without trial, Murder of US citizens secretly accused of a crime, Torture, Wiretap of citizens, Spying on the Press, people would have cried out this is Police State USSR Bill, with good reason, because we are seeing police State being erected in front of our very eyes, with capabilities that Insoc of 1984 could only dream of.

    (Note the Irony that all of this has occurred while people were fully armed, because they were not informational/Epistemology armed).
    Yeah.

    Democracy is pretty much useless if the people have no way to know what they're approving or disapproving of.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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