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Thread: Gun Control Debate

  1. #701  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Lol "operator error" is a very broad catchall term..how do we know that distraction via phone call or text messages didn't cause the error?

    Join the Army, the Marines or your local militia, Rambo. You gun nuts make me sick.
    I already did- We covered this.
    HHB 3-82 1CD, U.S. Army.
     

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    In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment "codified a pre-existing right" and that it "protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home"[9][10] but also stated that "the right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose". They also clarified that many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court are consistent with the Second Amendment.[11]
    Yeah, thanks to redneck lobbyists and the jackasses at the NRA. To me, this is akin to the "corporations are people" ruling. It is a perversion of law.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Lol "operator error" is a very broad catchall term..how do we know that distraction via phone call or text messages didn't cause the error?

    Join the Army, the Marines or your local militia, Rambo. You gun nuts make me sick.
    I already did- We covered this.
    HHB 3-82 1CD, U.S. Army.
    Thanks for your service. Now serve yourself by getting an education.
     

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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Lol "operator error" is a very broad catchall term..how do we know that distraction via phone call or text messages didn't cause the error?

    Join the Army, the Marines or your local militia, Rambo. You gun nuts make me sick.
    If it weren't for us gun nuts, you'd likely be dead or living in some tyrannical regime where the king had right of first night with your wife.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Yeah, thanks to redneck lobbyists and the jackasses at the NRA. To me, this is akin to the "corporations are people" ruling. It is a perversion of law.
    It is adherence to the Constitution of the United States of America. Perversion of law is people taking and taking and taking some more and using laws to validate their take, take, take.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Lol "operator error" is a very broad catchall term..how do we know that distraction via phone call or text messages didn't cause the error?

    Join the Army, the Marines or your local militia, Rambo. You gun nuts make me sick.
    If it weren't for us gun nuts, you'd likely be dead or living in some tyrannical regime where the king had right of first night with your wife.
    You people can't hold a candle to the US military. You think you prevent tyranny? You CREATE anarchy instead of allowing the police to deal with crime.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Thanks for your service.
    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Now serve yourself by getting an education.
    Agreed. But nothing you've said is educated- It is editorialized opinion.
    YOU want to enforce YOUR personal viewpoint on Everyone Else. That is called tyranny and oppression and this country was founded on opposing that.

    To paraphrase what Lynx_fox said earlier, if the Founders of the nation knew how anti-freedom the U.S. citizens would become, they would never have stuck their necks out.
    Like Franklin : "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
    and Nathan Hale "I regret I have but one life to give for my country."
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    You people
    YOU people?!
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    You think you prevent tyranny? You CREATE anarchy instead of allowing the police to deal with crime.
    Provide evidence to support this absurd assertion.

    The actual statistics are that More Homeowners defend their homes lawfully than police are able to make it out to take care of.
    More people are raped, burglarized or assaulted when they are unarmed and Police Action was not swift enough to save them.

    You want someone to rush to your rescue and maybe make it- maybe not- FINE. I do not and you do not have the right to tell me how to defend my life or family.



    http://www.examiner.com/article/audi...age-statistics
     

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    Ok, it may not be anarchic in your neighborhood but we need to think about hot spots of crime like Detroit and Harlem. THAT is where you run into problems and that is where most gun deaths occur.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Lol "operator error" is a very broad catchall term..how do we know that distraction via phone call or text messages didn't cause the error?

    Join the Army, the Marines or your local militia, Rambo. You gun nuts make me sick.
    If it weren't for us gun nuts, you'd likely be dead or living in some tyrannical regime where the king had right of first night with your wife.
    You people can't hold a candle to the US military. You think you prevent tyranny? You CREATE anarchy instead of allowing the police to deal with crime.
    You people? Dude, maybe you should take a break, go relax, take a shower and visit your happy place.

    Upholding the Constitution is hardly creating anarchy. On the fourth of july go visit a VA and talk to those who have fought and suffered endlessly to protect your right to talk trash about our constitution, those who have given their limbs and lost their best friends to assure that you can insult the without consequence. Those who have had their lives utterly destroyed by the horrifying PTSD and permanent physical and emotional disabilities so that you can spit in their face without retribution.

    Anarchy is when people who have a chip on their shoulder can do whatever they want, such as up-heave the very foundations of a nation because they are scared they may get shot. You know, there are ways to reduce your chances of getting shot.

    1. Don't threaten to take away our rights.

    2. Don't abuse other people.

    3. Don't commit crimes.

    4. Don't go into areas which show evidence of high crime.

    5. Don't go around talking crap, especially to cops or people with guns.

    6. Assume everyone has a gun and will shoot you if you do any of the things I suggested that you don't do above.
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Ok, it may not be anarchic in your neighborhood but we need to think about hot spots of crime like Detroit and Harlem. THAT is where you run into problems and that is where most gun deaths occur.
    So don't go there.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

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    I agree- MikePotter, I'm not telling you to stop debating nor to leave the thread- But I DO suggest that you get a grip. Maybe take a break for the night or something- Calling people 'sickening gun nuts' and all that... This is getting Too Heated.

    Use facts and statistics- not junk you just made up to support your position.
     

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    The actual statistics are that More Homeowners defend their homes lawfully than police are able to make it out to take care of.
    More people are raped, burglarized or assaulted when they are unarmed and Police Action was not swift enough to save them.
    Yeah, I don't trust a Libertarian Extremist Examiner article as a reliable source. Also, did you not read the sources I've posted showing that guns tend to do more harm than good for women who carry and that people are 22 times more likely to injure themselves or a friend/family member than use a gun in self-defense?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Ok, it may not be anarchic in your neighborhood but we need to think about hot spots of crime like Detroit and Harlem. THAT is where you run into problems and that is where most gun deaths occur.
    So don't go there.
    Yeah, because who cares about them, right?
     

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    Yeah- from liberal extremist sources.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Yeah- from liberal extremist sources.
    Most Libertarians are Conservative Republicans in sheep's clothing. William F. Buckley, an outspoken Libertarian, influenced Ronald Reagan's views on private property rights, for example.

    http://www.amazon.com/Buckley-Willia...liam+f+buckley
     

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    I grant you, that Libertarians are smart concerning some social issues before you jump to their defense...but Ron Paul said he would NOT have voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 due to private property provisions..and he is one of the icons of the Party...not all Libertarians share his views but this is what many people at the top think...his son Rand Paul made similar comments...

    "in Paul’s statements about civil rights. In a 2004 statement condemning the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Paul laid out his doctrinaire libertarian opposition. “[T]he forced integration dictated by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 increased racial tensions while diminishing individual liberty,” he wrote. “The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties.”
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ts-racism.html
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Upholding the Constitution is hardly creating anarchy.
    Misinterpreting the Constitution, or failing to recognise this is the 21st century, not the 1700s, might be worse than anarchy.

    Don't go around talking crap, especially to cops or people with guns.
    Because, as we all know, people who talk crap deserve to be shot.


    2. Don't abuse other people.
    Send me a pm when you plan to start on that one yourself.


    A few years ago, here in Houston, a rather drunk fellow Scot, knocked on the door of a household in the early hours of the morning. The homeowner shot and killed him. In his home town the worst that would have likely happened to the drunk would have been a hangover and a few choice words. So while you are besmirching MikePotter's character I suggest you go take a shower and contemplate the thousands who die each year in this country as a consequence of your requirements for 'freedom'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Constitution, or failing to recognise this is the 21st century, not the 1700s, might be worse than anarchy.
    What does the date really have to do with anything? Has some Magic occurred that human nature and governments have radically changed?
    People have been complaining about teenagers and claiming each generation isn't as good as theirs since the ancient Roman days.
    This fallacy of the date is nonsense- Whether it was 200 years ago, Now, or 200 years from now- Oppression, tyranny, freedom and other such principles will all be the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Because, as we all know, people who talk crap deserve to be shot.
    Would you say that people that punch Grizzly Bears deserve to get mauled?
    It's exactly the same- and it's not about whether they deserve it or not- it's about whether they unwisely instigated some shit they couldn't finish.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Send me a pm when you plan to start on that one yourself.
    You could do the same- You get abusive and then you claim anyone that dared snap back at you is forever Out To Get You.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    A few years ago, here in Houston, a rather drunk fellow Scot, knocked on the door of a household in the early hours of the morning. The homeowner shot and killed him. In his home town the worst that would have likely happened to the drunk would have been a hangover and a few choice words. So while you are besmirching MikePotter's character I suggest you go take a shower and contemplate the thousands who die each year in this country as a consequence of your requirements for 'freedom'.
    Nonsensical anecdote.
    No real details are given- who knows what actually happened and I'm sure everyone can make an opinion based on that tiny tidbit you just made up.

    MORE people die from CARS.
    We really need to ban those hunks of metal. How DARE people demand the freedom to travel freely.

    How dare those poor southern ranchers have to go broke and lose their lands for those ungrateful slaves requirements for freedom.
    Last edited by Neverfly; June 24th, 2013 at 01:46 AM.
     

  20. #720  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Upholding the Constitution is hardly creating anarchy.
    Misinterpreting the Constitution, or failing to recognise this is the 21st century, not the 1700s, might be worse than anarchy.

    Don't go around talking crap, especially to cops or people with guns.
    Because, as we all know, people who talk crap deserve to be shot.
    Maybe you think that, but its more like people who talk crap usually get themselves into fights. And if you get into a fight with someone that has a gun, there is a good chance that gun will come into play. Are you having fun distorting my words?


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    2. Don't abuse other people.
    Send me a pm when you plan to start on that one yourself.
    What is that supposed to mean? Are you accusing me of abusing people? Maybe you should PM me rather than my husband telling him to order his wife around.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    A few years ago, here in Houston, a rather drunk fellow Scot, knocked on the door of a household in the early hours of the morning. The homeowner shot and killed him. In his home town the worst that would have likely happened to the drunk would have been a hangover and a few choice words. So while you are besmirching MikePotter's character I suggest you go take a shower and contemplate the thousands who die each year in this country as a consequence of your requirements for 'freedom'.
    His character? He said he wanted to dismantle part of the constitution. I criticized what he said. I didn't say anything about his character. Apparently mods aren't above mudslinging.

    Btw, public intoxication is a crime in most places and I doubt you know first hand how this fellow was behaving while intoxicated and knocking on people's doors. Had he not gotten drunk and went around knocking on doors he likely would be alive today.

    Did you consider he may have been belligerent and threatening in his drunken state when the homeowner answered the door? Sorry but I don't have sympathy for people who get themselves killed doing stupid things.

    I'm done with this thread. If a participating mod can't even act rationally, and I am referring to JohnGalt, not Lynx_fox, and he has to make the debate personal then this thread isn't worth participating in anymore.

    Lynx, while we disagreed, I at least appreciate you never making it personal. It's one of the reasons why you are one of the mods I respect the most.

    Kalster, Thanks for at least trying to bring back the sanity. And I apologize for any mistakes I may be oblivious to. feel free to Pm me to point them out, not that you need my permission.
    Last edited by seagypsy; June 24th, 2013 at 01:53 AM.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

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    Yeah... Us "gun nuts" make him sick and we're besmirching his character.

    "Prevent All Darwin Awards! We must go forth and multiply..."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    I grant you, that Libertarians are smart concerning some social issues before you jump to their defense...but Ron Paul said he would NOT have voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 due to private property provisions..and he is one of the icons of the Party...not all Libertarians share his views but this is what many people at the top think...his son Rand Paul made similar comments...

    "in Paul’s statements about civil rights. In a 2004 statement condemning the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Paul laid out his doctrinaire libertarian opposition. “[T]he forced integration dictated by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 increased racial tensions while diminishing individual liberty,” he wrote. “The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties.”
    How Ron Paul
    1.) As far as I knew, Ron Paul is a Republican and not a Libertarian. Has he identified himself as otherwise? He is NOT an Icon of libertarians- He is just a Well Known Republican. Whether he is an Icon to Republicans- it is not my place to say.
    2.) Just because Ron Paul, a Republican, thinks that way, does not mean every Libertarian agrees with him.
    3.) This is a Red Herring and an Ad Hom (the Second Ad Hom attack accusing others of Racism) attack akin to Godwins Law- you are trying to claim that Libertarians are gun toting redneck racists- Again. Your stereotypes and heavy handed freak-outs, such as "I will dismantle the constitution and there's nothing you can do about it" are utterly out of line and uncalled for.

    You really should be ashamed of yourself. You claim a political party is racist from a source that distorts what a Republican said, (He said he supports the right to make free choice, he did not endorse racist actions, attitudes or behavior) yet you stop just shy of calling anyone that disagrees with you "Redneck White Trash."

    No, actually you did call us Rednecks. And Gun Nuts. And said we make you Sick.

    And we're besmirching your character while you do all of this- RIGHT?

    John Galt, you need lessons in reading comprehension. It is no wonder that you believe that "The Right Of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall Not be Infringed" is magically "misinterpreting," your word, the constitution. No... claiming that the words, "THE PEOPLE" are magically not in there is imaginative misinterpretation and no amount of slithering around it will change that reality.
     

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    [QUOTE=Neverfly;433755]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    That position, in and of itself--the idea that people should just leave rather than debate in the public square, is at its core anti-american; our founding fathers might have bristled at the thought. It also doesn't' make for good conversation.
    Nonsense. Debating is debating.
    Advocating doing away with the constitution and telling people what to do is as permissible as me saying leave if you don't like it here.

    Yep....start doing away with teh constitution and we are going down fast. We already seem to be living the book "1984", in more ways than I would like to see happen.
     

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    Yeah, well... who needs the constitution when we have Police?
    Just call the cops- who aren't there when you call and must sort out who is doing what... and may or may not show up in time (More likely to show up in time to clean up the mess and wonder who the burglar was) IF they show up at all.

    Many people that live in Big Cities advocate such extreme actions- utterly oblivious to their taking their luxuries, like WalMart and Cops, for granted.
    Well, WalMart does not care about you. Neither do the police.
    You're outside of their MonkeySphere.

    But the majority of the population of the United States does not live in the Big City.
    They live out there where the cops may or may not show up. If they do, they probably won't show up in time.

    And in time of Disasters, like Katrina- the cops won't show up at all. Not only do you need to defend your lives and resources, your firearm is a hunting resource for your own survival. Knowing what plants are safe to munch on or not is one thing, but everyone knows almost every animal you can shoot is palatable and safe to eat.

    The complacency of "It won't happen to us" plays, I believe, a very large role in taking this supposed safety for granted.
     

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    FastFacts website and what not lists 30 odd thousand people died in 2010 from firearm incidents.
    It doesn't say how many were suicides or what not... but I just had a thought:

    How many were police shootings?

    I cannot find anything that tells me.

    And I think that's really relevant.

    From what I can find, 19odd thousand are suicides, which is over 60% of the over-all figure.

    That leaves about 14 odd thousand which we have no idea what the circumstances where and how many were police.

    What that leaves us with is that if a large chunk of that is police shootings- then claiming that banning guns will stop all this needless civilians killing other civilians is moot- You'd need to ban cops or something. Yeah... right.
    And if the police are not the largest chunk but a small chunk- then we must ask, how many of those shootings were law abiding people shooting unlawfully entering or invading parties? In which case- we can chalk that chunk up to less shooting deaths and more rape and stab victims from burglaries, perhaps.
    Or shootings from burglaries by the invader- since the banned guns didn't allow the homeowner to off the attacker and protect his wife and kids.

    SeaGypsy was right- I was wrong.

    There really cannot be a rational discussion using the supposed statistics- every source twists and distorts them by their own agenda.

    Which leaves us with this: Allow people the Freedom to defend home and life or not?

    I say that Freedom, as a founding principle, necessary for the pursuit of happiness, is fundamental to the United States and the necessity to preserve and protect freedom trumps all else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Yeah, well... who needs the constitution when we have Police?
    Just call the cops- who aren't there when you call and must sort out who is doing what... and may or may not show up in time (More likely to show up in time to clean up the mess and wonder who the burglar was) IF they show up at all.

    Many people that live in Big Cities advocate such extreme actions- utterly oblivious to their taking their luxuries, like WalMart and Cops, for granted.
    Well, WalMart does not care about you. Neither do the police.
    You're outside of their MonkeySphere.

    But the majority of the population of the United States does not live in the Big City.
    They live out there where the cops may or may not show up. If they do, they probably won't show up in time.

    And in time of Disasters, like Katrina- the cops won't show up at all. Not only do you need to defend your lives and resources, your firearm is a hunting resource for your own survival. Knowing what plants are safe to munch on or not is one thing, but everyone knows almost every animal you can shoot is palatable and safe to eat.

    The complacency of "It won't happen to us" plays, I believe, a very large role in taking this supposed safety for granted.
    When you live in a rural area. Often there is a small police force! Our Fire Department is VOLUNTEER!

    You need to make sure you can take care of your needs.

    I am not advocating shooting people, I just think guns have a proper place in our lives, and it is our RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS!
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    The reality of the situation is that the right to bear arms is a constitutional right in the United States. Anyone who attempts to Violate that constitutional right is a tyrant.
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    Agreed- and I was a VFD for Jonestown near the Austin area when I lived there ( I lived in Leander).
     

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    yes yes yes!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Agreed- and I was a VFD for Jonestown near the Austin area when I lived there ( I lived in Leander).
    Well thank you and all the VFD's.
     

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    What is a VFD? Volunteer fire department?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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    Yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    What is a VFD? Volunteer fire department?
    Yes and a very important part of many areas that have no regular fire department.

    However that would be a different thread.
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    Voluptuous Female Department is what KALSTER was thinking...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Voluptuous Female Department is what KALSTER was thinking...
    *laughing* he's seen me! *L* Now I shall behave!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Voluptuous Female Department is what KALSTER was thinking...
    I always think that. Everything else is secondary.
    Neverfly and babe like this.
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    Would you say that people that punch Grizzly Bears deserve to get mauled?
    It's exactly the same- and it's not about whether they deserve it or not- it's about whether they unwisely instigated some shit they couldn't finish.
    Actually, guns often allow insecure, weak people to have an advantage against a superior foe. It is more like a Grizzly Bear getting shot by a human. It sounds like you are grandstanding here and it is highly annoying.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Actually, guns often allow insecure, weak people to have an advantage against a superior foe. It is more like a Grizzly Bear getting shot by a human.
    This can be true enough...




    Warning - Explicit -: http://blog.kabo.nu/wp-content/uploa...scaled1000.jpg




    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    It sounds like you are grandstanding here and it is highly annoying.
    Coming from the guy that called us Rednecks, said we make him sick, etc... There really is way too much Ad Hom flying around in this thread.
    Take a good look in the mirror.
    Ask yourself if your motivations truly are altruistic.


    The bad guys like to be armed, too. So, illegal firearms? Tell me, are folks still selling drugs?

    It really is very simple: "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have them."
    You think taking away peoples protection is the smart way to be?
    Well, I don't agree with that... I am not a nice sweet and kind loving fella. You want to take, you're not altruistic. Same as the bad guys with guns do. You want to take away what is Protected. For what? So you feel safer? Safety is worn on your hip or slung over your shoulder. It's not just a phone call away.
    So if the bad guys are going to have them, anyway...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    This is weird, Lynx, I don't think I have ever seen you link to someone's blog to back up a claim.
    I have when the numbers are easy to find in official public records--the article put context on them.

    More importantly than the actual numbers, and as I've stated, is actually trying to extract meaningful information from small sample sizes. There's a reason the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), bureau of crime statistics and other official means do not measure cities and areas below 25,000 population--because the low incidence rates of what they are trying to measure, and it's error bars too broad to use. In short, despite it's use by popular reality web sites and such, there's little to no meaningful information from the year to year variations in 5000 person towns. And using such numbers without consideration of the errors inherent in low sampling size creates all sorts of interesting interpretations, such as this one that shows according to the raw FBI records that little town is only in the 35% of safe cities as of last year--that is most places are safer. The years before it probably showed the opposite. A single bad domestic quarrel could make it appear to be the worst town in America for that year.
    Kennesaw crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout So be cautious whenever looking at small town numbers.

    Though firewalled there has been a more statistics based reviews of that small town: One concluding: "It has often been argued that civilian firearm ownership acts as a deterrent to crime. Much of the support for this claim is based on incidents that have called attention to the prevalence of privately owned guns. We examined several such incidents and failed to and persuasive evidence of a deterrent effect."
    GENERAL DETERRENCE THROUGH CIVILIAN GUN OWNERSHIP: AN EVALUATION OF THE QUASI-EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE - McDOWALL - 2006 - Criminology - Wiley Online Library
    Another that looks at the specific problems with drawing conclusions from that town:
    Guns in American Society - Gregg Lee Carter Ph.D. - Google Books
    In short:
    -too small sample size
    -mandatory gun law is mostly paper and not enforced so not very meaningful
    -doesn't account for demographics for the town nor it's shifting demographics.

    --
    NV, it is disturbing to see you turn to logical fallacies in this thread--and quite uncharacteristic.

    --

    But just to be clear, don't cast me as some anti-gun nut. I was raised with them, have them and think most homes should have them, particularly in rural communities where help isn't available in time to prevent a threat to family. That being said though, I've always against hand gun--the evidence is overwhelming that they are too dangerous even in experienced hands, and not very effective even in defense situations.

    As for mass murders, I just wish both sides of the debate would take a look at the data: there are only two characteristic that again and again result in the mass slaughters--semi-auto + large capacity magazines--all attempts to improve safety, training and registration should focus on that rather than mostly cosmetic "assault weapons" nonsense.

    Lastly, I think gun safety training should be part of every school curriculum in America--that alone would probably do more to reduce accidents than all other measures combined.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; June 24th, 2013 at 09:09 AM.
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  40. #740  
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    I live in a house where I chased away 4 burglars by being large and loud. They had already broken off the burglar bars and were about to enter the house when I came into the kitchen.

    Guy one street over was shot in the back and killed as he tried to get away from home invaders.

    Brother was assaulted when the shop he was working at got robbed.

    Parent's neighbours' home got invaded, 17 year old girl got raped, house burgled.

    Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc.

    Violent crime has affected a large portion of the people I know. I don't own a gun, neither does anyone in my family, neither does my closest friend. Must be a different mindset I guess.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Violent crime has affected a large portion of the people I know. I don't own a gun, neither does anyone in my family, neither does my closest friend. Must be a different mindset I guess.
    I really think such is the case. Owning a firearm just isn't for everyone.
    A lot of people don't hunt. What would they need a hunting rifle for?
    I might argue that it would be pretty handy to have if you did need it...
    A lot of things fall under that- "Be Prepared."

    Let's examine your post and speculate about your personal life a bit:
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I live in a house where I chased away 4 burglars by being large and loud. They had already broken off the burglar bars and were about to enter the house when I came into the kitchen.
    You don't need to be armed to spook a burglar. If they are unsure- they are likely to flee. You were being large and loud- but a 17 year old girl that looks frightened probably wouldn't be very good at being burly.
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Guy one street over was shot in the back and killed as he tried to get away from home invaders.
    Had he been armed and undergone safety training, he probably could have shot them, instead. Now, he's got a back injury, if still alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Brother was assaulted when the shop he was working at got robbed.
    This one is problematic. Sometimes, you won't have enough time to draw a weapon and trying to in such a situation is liable to get you shot first. Compliance can save a life in some situations but cost one in others and sadly- it can be pretty unpredictable. A series of security precautions for the shop may have added up to reduced risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Parent's neighbours' home got invaded, 17 year old girl got raped, house burgled.
    Had she been trained and armed, she very likely would not have been raped, not had that traumatic memory and removed a rapist from the world.
    Not for everyone? Could be... but for those that it is for, someone declaring to dismantle protective rights and seeking to take away protections that will end up only in the hands of criminals are telling that girl that she has no choice but to lie there and take it.

    I dunno about the rest of you but that does not sit right with me.

    Not. At. All.
     

  42. #742  
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    Let me first say that I am not against firearm ownership.

    I am not a US citizen, but from what I can see the gun control laws over there are very lax indeed. Try to limit ownership in any way and the NRA and Republicans lose their minds.
    Like you say, there is no need to own a hunting or automatic rifle if you don't hunt or...are in the military. There is no reason why you need boxes and boxes full of ammunition or large sized magazines. If you really need to own a large rifle or automatic weapon, you should have to jump through a series of very tough hoops in order to be able to get them legally.

    I'll look for a source later, but I read that a large portion of crime related gun injuries are from the perpetrator using the person's own weapon against him. It is not a good idea to have guns laying around the house, so they'll have to be locked away.

    Chances are that girl or guy would not have had a chance to get to the gun before being overwhelmed by the burglars. Also, 17 year old girls don't normally have gun training. She might have been shot in addition to being raped. If you pull out a gun, you are more prone to getting shot if the perpetrators have guns themselves.

    Owning a gun should be a difficult decision to make. You shouldn't be able to buy one at Walmart.


    I'd like to own a gun of some sort, but mostly for shooting at ranges with. It is huge fun. I have shot with a 9mm pistol, R1 automatic assualt rifle, 12 gauge shotgun, .22 target pistol, etc. I do enjoy it, but I am not convinced that owning a gun is necessarily the best way to defend yourself. For me, if a robber enters your store/home, cover him in pepper spray or shock the shit out of him and call the cops/security. If he has a gun, give him everything he wants. It is safer to get insurance.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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    The opinions you guys are expressing on this issue seem to centre mainly around whether or not guns are effective to defend life &
    property but also whether having access to the guns is justifiable when people are dying because of them. It seems reasonable that hunting
    and recreational range or club shooting are acceptable usages for firearms, but even so there is still the issue of how to keep
    the guns out of the hands of the type of nutters that are likely to massacre innocent people in outrageous shooting sprees.

    In general I would certainly support the idea of having more checks and making it harder for people to obtain fire arms, perhaps they
    could also include a mandatory assessment session with a psychiatrist to ensure that any fire arms are held only by those of sufficient
    mental stability. Also a requirement that each gun owned is registered with the local police, so they have records and can take
    action if a problem arises. Maybe also the possibility for a police or local authority issued license requirement to legally
    buy or own firearms.

    Smaller magazines and limited ammunition also seems pretty much like a no-brainer, of course if people could present a genuine and
    valid reason for needing extra capicity then in such circumstances exceptions could be made. Surely there is some room for movement on
    the issue here by the NRA, there intransigence on the issue just seems like a kick in the teeth to all the families of shooting victims.

    The issue as to whether it is better to have a gun in the home to protect yourself is one that will probarbly run for a while, with
    some espousing the benefits whilst others clearly feel the opposite. I guess the reality is that there will be situations where having
    a weapon could be of benefit and cases where it clearly isn't. I would probarbly prefer people, if they need a weapon for home defence,
    to choose something that isn't quite so lethal as a gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    The reality of the situation is that the right to bear arms is a constitutional right in the United States. Anyone who attempts to Violate that constitutional right is a tyrant.
    I'll gladly take on the role of Tyrant for the right cause.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Ok, it may not be anarchic in your neighborhood but we need to think about hot spots of crime like Detroit and Harlem. THAT is where you run into problems and that is where most gun deaths occur.
    So don't go there.
    I'll go where I please.
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    Tyrannos omnes oportet perire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    This is weird, Lynx, I don't think I have ever seen you link to someone's blog to back up a claim.
    I have when the numbers are easy to find in official public records--the article put context on them.
    Yes a very biased context. Which is what just about any argument based on statistic does, regardless of which side of the issue the argument is in favor of. That's why I dislike using statistics. They are the least accurate form of data collection available and almost like a religious text can be interpreted any way the reader chooses. My reason for posting that about Kennesaw was simply to express that it's the kind of place I want to live, and that I was in error in that no laws had been made forcing anyone to own guns. But it seems people are overlooking that and attaching motives to me that I did not demonstrate. Btw, I am only coming back to the thread because you have been keeping it sane and not making it personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    More importantly than the actual numbers, and as I've stated, is actually trying to extract meaningful information from small sample sizes. There's a reason the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), bureau of crime statistics and other official means do not measure cities and areas below 25,000 population--because the low incidence rates of what they are trying to measure, and it's error bars too broad to use. In short, despite it's use by popular reality web sites and such, there's little to no meaningful information from the year to year variations in 5000 person towns. And using such numbers without consideration of the errors inherent in low sampling size creates all sorts of interesting interpretations, such as this one that shows according to the raw FBI records that little town is only in the 35% of safe cities as of last year--that is most places are safer. The years before it probably showed the opposite. A single bad domestic quarrel could make it appear to be the worst town in America for that year.
    Kennesaw crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout So be cautious whenever looking at small town numbers.

    Though firewalled there has been a more statistics based reviews of that small town: One concluding: "It has often been argued that civilian firearm ownership acts as a deterrent to crime. Much of the support for this claim is based on incidents that have called attention to the prevalence of privately owned guns. We examined several such incidents and failed to and persuasive evidence of a deterrent effect."
    GENERAL DETERRENCE THROUGH CIVILIAN GUN OWNERSHIP: AN EVALUATION OF THE QUASI-EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE - McDOWALL - 2006 - Criminology - Wiley Online Library
    Another that looks at the specific problems with drawing conclusions from that town:
    Guns in American Society - Gregg Lee Carter Ph.D. - Google Books
    In short:
    -too small sample size
    -mandatory gun law is mostly paper and not enforced so not very meaningful
    -doesn't account for demographics for the town nor it's shifting demographics.

    None of this means anything to me. As I have said over and over, I don't trust statistical data collection and interpretation regardless of who's side it supports. I see it as weak, terribly inaccurate and incapable of taking all variables into account.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    --
    NV, it is disturbing to see you turn to logical fallacies in this thread--and quite uncharacteristic.

    --
    I'm not sure if you are talking to me or someone else here. If it is me, then what logical fallacy are you referring to and can you quote me. I'd like to understand where my mistake is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    But just to be clear, don't cast me as some anti-gun nut.
    No one has cast you as any kind of nut. The only person calling anyone nuts has been mikepotter84. You may have overlooked it but I actually thanked you for being rational throughout this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I was raised with them, have them and think most homes should have them, particularly in rural communities where help isn't available in time to prevent a threat to family. That being said though, I've always against hand gun--the evidence is overwhelming that they are too dangerous even in experienced hands, and not very effective even in defense situations.
    I don't know enough about guns personally to know what hte effectiveness is. But if someone is on top of you, you can't easily point a shot gun at them and blow them away. Shot guns are also very heavy. Hell, I have trouble lifting some hand guns. A Saturday night special is about all I can hold. I have very tiny weak wrists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    As for mass murders, I just wish both sides of the debate would take a look at the data: there are only two characteristic that again and again result in the mass slaughters--semi-auto + large capacity magazines--all attempts to improve safety, training and registration should focus on that rather than mostly cosmetic "assault weapons" nonsense.
    I wouldn't have any issue with stronger restrictions being put on these, however given the international political climate change, I think the odds of us being attacked on our soil with an actual army is increasing all the time. Our country is not invincible, there should be provisions in place that should the USA come under attack by foreign invaders that every household be provided with ak47s and be taught how to use them. Then other countries would not only be facing our army but our huge armed population. Which is one of the inspirations of the 2nd amendment to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Lastly, I think gun safety training should be part of every school curriculum in America--that alone would probably do more to reduce accidents than all other measures combined.
    I agree with you 100%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I'll look for a source later, but I read that a large portion of crime related gun injuries are from the perpetrator using the person's own weapon against him. It is not a good idea to have guns laying around the house, so they'll have to be locked away.

    Chances are that girl or guy would not have had a chance to get to the gun before being overwhelmed by the burglars. Also, 17 year old girls don't normally have gun training. She might have been shot in addition to being raped. If you pull out a gun, you are more prone to getting shot if the perpetrators have guns themselves.
    Is there any evidence for such assertions?
    Given the numbers, even a substantial amount of incidents where the perp took the firearm away from someone and used it on the owner seems very unlikely. Perps will avoid an armed victim and go for unarmed.

    Given that 87% of gun statistics are made up on the spot by Believers of gun/anti-gun spouting... Given that they will gladly Pad the numbers with inapplicable cases since no one can really check...
    I mean, really- how would they know? And the Majority?! REALLY?!

    "The majority of traffic fatalities are caused by exploded livers."

    As far as pulling out a firearm, you are more prone to get shot-- Perps don't like leaving people alive that can I.D. them. You speak of absurd chances with no evidence- yet, would you rather have what you need when you need it or be wishing you had?

    "Well... I certainly would not want the ability to defend myself from an armed attacker cuz I dunno, something might go wrong or maybe I'll blow off my big toe..."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Tyrannos omnes oportet perire
    Not until I serve my purpose.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    [and I'm sure everyone can make an opinion based on that tiny tidbit you just made up.
    You really want to think long and hard before you call me a liar again.
     

  51. #751  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    [and I'm sure everyone can make an opinion based on that tiny tidbit you just made up.
    You really want to think long and hard before you call me a liar again.
    Is that a threat?
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

  52. #752  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    [and I'm sure everyone can make an opinion based on that tiny tidbit you just made up.
    You really want to think long and hard before you call me a liar again.
    Lies are not necessary- if you relay an anecdote or if I relay an anecdote- you're making up the story as you go because it's your interpretation, description and bias involved in the making of it. It is not an objective report.
    You gave a vague anecdote lacking in any detail. There is nothing of any value, no lesson, no evidence for assertions contained within it in any way.

    As far as "think long and hard," I stand by what I said. I have absolutely no reason to take your word for it on a useless and vague anecdote on the topic. That was not a report, with times, dates, details- No, Nothing of the kind. Not even remotely close. Whatever actually happened that night was certainly not contained in your version that you typed in a few vague sentences. So that means that you most certainly did make that up. If you had put that in front of a Judge you would have been told the same.
     

  53. #753  
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    Why do you two insist on going the nasty route?

    Neverfly: you are accusing John of lying, twice, and think it is ok. I would have been at least as unhappy about that as he was. Your dance around/defence of that is nonsense. Any reasonable person would simply ask for more detail, but you go straight for an attack on his character. How do you know this person wasn't one of his friends?

    Then you, seagypsy, respond with a school yard prod for a reaction?


    I can't understand this. But I'll act decisively and I won't be popular with either of you. So be it. I am away for a while and have to come back to the same shit.

    I am giving both of you off for two weeks. I want you to return and think before you act from then on. This isn't just about this indecent, but it was the proverbial last straw. I don't want you two to leave permanently, but the ball is in your court now.


    I'll leave the thread open for now.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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  54. #754  
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    If i understand what i see
    when the member's name is in orange, they have been suspended?
     

  55. #755  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    If i understand what i see
    when the member's name is in orange, they have been suspended?
    Yes.

    --
    As for claims the thread about dangers of guns being mostly anacdoctals, that's simply not the case--it is extensively studied by many organizations. Here's an article that lays out the many that show overwelmingly the inherent dangers of gun ownership.

    The Self-Defense Self-Delusion
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  56. #756  
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    If i understand what i see
    when the member's name is in orange, they have been suspended?

    ...........
    here's a couple Galtisms/ophioliteisms
    I'd have let it run. If we remove the controversy the forum would die.
    and
    Since I may simply not be applying a robust enough 'sneering factor', I have recently upped the ante, as this remark, directed at galexander illustrates.

    You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are a moron, with the intellectual capacity of a kangaroo's turd, the debating skills of a dyslexic e.coli and the knowledge base of a gabbroic diapir.
    I felt it had a nice rhythym to it, which transforms it from a mere insult into a proper sneer. :wink:
    gee, John, how you've mellowed(nice rhythym indeed)
     

  57. #757  
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    My family hunts. Kids grew up hunting as did their father and grandfather. We ate what they shot. We do not own any handguns and our ammunition is locked up securely in a different spot than the rifles. Sorry my return doesn't seem to function, so this is rather a run on paragraph. In order to OBTAIN their hunting license, the kids attended a two hour once a week class on hunting safety and gun safety. They then had to go to the range for two Saturdays with their rifles, and were properly taught the proper use of their rifles and had to pass a test on the range to show their knowledge of proper gun handling and proper gun safety. In order to obtain their RIFLES, they had to fill out a form. The form had to be approved and it was a 2 or three (I honestly don't remember) week waiting period. The permit to buy the rifle is kept on file. I will say, however, this is State of California, and I do not know other state's criteria for purchasing and owning a gun.
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  58. #758  
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    I'm a gun owner and target shooter. In all my years, and they're more than a few, I've never been in a situation where I needed a gun for self defense, nor do I ever expect to be.
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    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

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    In order to purchase an Iowa hunting license,
    Resident and nonresident hunters born after Jan. 1, 1972, must satisfactorily complete a hunter education course in order to obtain a hunting license. A person who is 11 years-old or older may enroll in a course, but those who are 11 and successfully complete the course shall be issued a certificate of completion which becomes valid on that person's 12th birthday. Residents under the age of 12 can be issued deer and turkey licenses, but the youth hunter must be accompanied by and under the immediate control of or direct supervision of a licensed adult hunter
    I never valued "target shooting" 'cepting to zero in the weapon. It always seemed a waste of ammunition.
    (I think I'm frugal, but maybe I'm just cheap?)
    Aside from the zeroing, I eat what I shoot. Not being a cannibal .... ... .
     

  60. #760  
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    In New Hampshire you do not need a permit to open carry. You do need a permit for concealed carry, but it is a 'must issue' state, meaning unless you have a criminal record, mental health issues or a restraining order, the local police in whatever town you live in must issue the permit. You also need the permit to carry a loaded weapon in your car. My permit is useful for carrying my guns to and from the firing range.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

  61. #761  
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    I think i'm gonna read the laws.
    I had never thought that i'd need a carry permit to take a weapon out on the road with me.
    I had assumed that a carry permit was for a handgun.

    hmmm
    ??
     

  62. #762  
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    These are the kinds of people we have to deal with on the Right. There are hundreds of such videos on youtube of police harassment and an unwillingness to even show ID to prove they are not felons and save lives:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah3a7dQqyZI

    Open Carry Hardee's Incident (part 1) - YouTube

    Matthews vs. Gun Owner: "You're Carrying A G-D D-mn Gun!" - YouTube
     

  63. #763  
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    well will never have a hand gun....per se....*cough*

    but all kidding aside, I just dont' see the need for one.......I'd be shaking so hard I'd probably shoot myself in the foot!
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  64. #764  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Ok, it may not be anarchic in your neighborhood but we need to think about hot spots of crime like Detroit and Harlem. THAT is where you run into problems and that is where most gun deaths occur.
    People who use guns to commit crimes are, by definition, criminals. When you outlaw guns, the only ones to have them will be criminals. Would you rather wait for cops who are extremely unlikely to show until after the crime, or would you rather let people protect themselves from crime? Remember that many of these crimes don't just rob people of property, but of their lives.
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  65. #765  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    These are the kinds of people we have to deal with on the Right. There are hundreds of such videos on youtube of police harassment and an unwillingness to even show ID to prove they are not felons and save lives:

    Open Carry Arrest - Master Sgt, police are "exempt from the law" - YouTube

    Open Carry Hardee's Incident (part 1) - YouTube

    Matthews vs. Gun Owner: "You're Carrying A G-D D-mn Gun!" - YouTube

    You don't HAVE TO show ID unless you are accused of or suspected of a crime. State supreme courts have even ruled that open carry is not grounds for suspicion or having to show your license. It's not a crime to exercise your constitutional rights, but failure to do so may very well cause them to slowly disappear.
     

  66. #766  
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    Good. I hope to hell the 2nd amendment disappears. This fucking gun culture in America is retarded. People here are like children.

    You don't HAVE TO show ID
    Such arrogance.

    Wahhh "I don't have to do anything I don't wanna cause nobody tells me what to do!"

    WHY NOT ALLOW THE COP TO MAKE SURE YOU AREN'T A FELON WOULD THAT HURT YOU? NO.
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  67. #767  
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    Because it allows the government to monitor, and harrass, people whenever they want. Also, there's a pesky thing called "illegal search and siezure" that prevents the police and government from investigating you in order to find crimes that you commited. They must first show that you might have commited a crime.
    As for the second amendment comment, like I said, would you rather protect yourself, or be assaulted, raped, mugged, robbed, or murdered, while those that are supposed to protect you never seem to get there in time.

    There's a saying I heard. "When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away." So far, it seems to be accurate.
     

  68. #768  
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    The ONLY reason they would check your ID when carrying a gun is to make sure you aren't a criminal. That's it. There is no hidden agenda.
     

  69. #769  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    The ONLY reason they would check your ID when carrying a gun is to make sure you aren't a criminal. That's it. There is no hidden agenda.
    Just how naive can you be?
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

  70. #770  
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    Are you a conspiracy theorist?

    Maybe you misunderstood. I was saying in that situation, that is the only reason they ask for your ID.
     

  71. #771  
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    You have never been stopped and had a cop try to pin something on you, when you were in 100% abiding by the law, have you. There are cops with agenda's. I know this one up close and PERSONAL.
     

  72. #772  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Good. I hope to hell the 2nd amendment disappears. This fucking gun culture in America is retarded. People here are like children.

    You don't HAVE TO show ID
    Such arrogance.

    Wahhh "I don't have to do anything I don't wanna cause nobody tells me what to do!"

    WHY NOT ALLOW THE COP TO MAKE SURE YOU AREN'T A FELON WOULD THAT HURT YOU? NO.
    The law might not allow a cop to ask you for registration, but, like you say, why is it such a huge attack on your rights if they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable
    Because it allows the government to monitor, and harrass, people whenever they want. Also, there's a pesky thing called "illegal search and siezure" that prevents the police and government from investigating you in order to find crimes that you commited. They must first show that you might have commited a crime.
    The "government"? The guy is a cop. His job is to protect you and your fellow citizens. If he asks you for your papers, that is what he is doing. I have to tell you, from an outside perspective, it seems like some of you Americans are just looking for something to gripe about. Sure the government does some stupid and appalling things, but on the whole you live in a kickass country.

    Gripe about things that really encroaches on your liberty, not inane things that is designed not to oppress you, but to protect you in the end. "Oh, hi officer, here is my licence". How difficult is that? It is not as if it is a Nazi asking you: "Ihre papiere bitte". There must be too many corrupt cop movies in the rounds or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe
    You have never been stopped and had a cop try to pin something on you, when you were in 100% abiding by the law, have you. There are cops with agenda's. I know this one up close and PERSONAL.
    Think honestly now; do you think he did that because of some nefarious concerted effort by the police, or because that particular human was being a douche bag?

    Sure there will be cops with agendas. There are people with agendas all over the place. That should go without saying.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

  73. #773  
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    TheUnknowable likes this.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

  74. #774  
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    With all the recent scandles in the government, you still trust them to not abuse their power?
     

  75. #775  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    With all the recent scandles in the government, you still trust them to not abuse their power?
    Overactive imaginations aren't always a good thing.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
     

  76. #776  
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    Alex, I had no idea you were so paranoiac...

    I agree with Goebbels on this. He may have been a bad man but the quote is spot on. Simply because one person who says something is evil, doesn't make that something evil. Logical fail. You are basically resorting to an ad hominem attack on people who think like me by equating us with Nazis. Ignorant and childish.

    PASS AUF! FEIND HOERT MIT *SARKASMUS*
     

  77. #777  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Alex, I had no idea you were so paranoiac...

    I agree with Goebbels on this. He may have been a bad man but the quote is spot on. Simply because one person who says something is evil, doesn't make that something evil. Logical fail. You are basically resorting to an ad hominem attack on people who think like me by equating us with Nazis. Ignorant and childish.
    It's an ad hominem to equate you with people you agree with?

    Whereas I do think you're juvenile, naive and inexperienced.

    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

  78. #778  
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    Oh well, I overestimated your intelligence apparently. Continue your whiny rants against your Imaginary Hitler.

    https://www.facebook.com/ImaginaryH1tler
     

  79. #779  
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    Now that is an ad hominem.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

  80. #780  
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    It's an ad hominem to equate you with people you agree with?

    Whereas I do think you're juvenile, naive and inexperienced.
    Please tell me you were dropped on your head as a child. If this is the new normal I don't want to live on this planet anymore...
     

  81. #781  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Now that is an ad hominem.
    Typical, you start shit and insult me and then I respond with an insult and then you complain.
     

  82. #782  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Now that is an ad hominem.
    Typical, you start shit and insult me and then I respond with an insult and then you complain.
    Juvenile, sophomoric, and not very bright.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

  83. #783  
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    Two people kicked. More personal attacks by others, (the very thing that resulted in the kicks).
    And now Nazi Germany. (Godwin's rule!)

    Sorry folks this thread is doing more harm than good.
    KALSTER, MrMojo1 and babe like this.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
     

  84. #784  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    I am not personally a fan of using single quotes from historical figures to make points. I find that generally for every point made by a quote, the opposite could be made with another, equally "reputable" source. Kind of like idioms.

    For instance, how do you define "essential liberty"? Obviously it doesn't mean you should be able to do what you like, so where and how are the lines drawn? Who decides?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

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