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Thread: Hawking demands pardon

  1. #1 Hawking demands pardon 
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    Is stephen Hawking correct, should Alan Turing be given a posthumous pardon?
    Turing of course was a mathematician and most famous for designing a computer to help crack the enigma code back in the 1940's. But it was in 1952 when he fell from grace eventually being convicted of homosexuality, something that is certainly not now regarded as a crime in our era.
    The idea behind the pardon has come up thanks to a private member's bill introduced in the House of Lords by Lord Sharkey, a Liberal Democrat peer. It was then followed up by a letter from Stephen Hawking, the world-renowned physicist, and 10 other signatories suggesting David Cameron should "formally forgive" Turing. Amongst the other signatories are Lord Rees, the astronomer royal, Sir Paul Nurse, the head of the Royal Society, and Lady Trumpington, who worked for Turing during the war.

    It was only in 2009 that the then prime minister Gordon Brown made a posthumous apology to Turing, describing his treatment as "appalling". But strangely he was not officially pardoned.

    Previous attempts to obtain a pardon for Turing have failed, so now perhaps now with the support of world famous scientists such as Stephen Hawking is it time that Turing is pardoned to have his name cleared so he can once again retake his rightful place in British history?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...n-Hawking.html


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    Iuvenis ducis Darkhorse's Avatar
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    Absolutely.


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    Yes. What a bizarre law and enforcement of it.
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    Alan Turing lived in different times, the Cambridge spy ring was on the loose in those days. You think that he should be pardoned, great, but why stop there.
    What about Agnes Sampson, she was executed in Edinburgh Scotland, on 28th January 1591, she was garotted and burnt at the stake, after confessing to being a witch.

    Agnes Sampson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Alan Turing lived in different times, the Cambridge spy ring was on the loose in those days. You think that he should be pardoned, great, but why stop there.
    What about Agnes Sampson, she was executed in Edinburgh Scotland, on 28th January 1591, she was garotted and burnt at the stake, after confessing to being a witch.

    Agnes Sampson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Do you not think that if someone as intelligent as Stephen Hawking has put his name to it then it must at least have some merit?
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    Hawking might be able to pull the political weight to get it passed, but his intelligence isn't really a factor- his popularity is.
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    Me don't thinks you'll get to many folk argueing with him though, he's not really the type of person you'd normally expect to win an argument with.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

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    me thinks you could maybe be right about that.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Gonna play the bad guy... er um.. bad girl here. The idea of a pardon is to suggest that an innocent person was convicted of a crime. If it was actually illegal to be homosexual during his time and he was in fact homosexual, then there is no cause for a pardon. If there is, then anyone convicted of selling alcohol during prohibition era in the US also needs to be pardoned. Then that would open up a can of worms creating justification for convicting people of crimes that were not crimes when they were committed. Issuing out posthumous convictions to slave owners of the 1800's because today it is illegal to own slaves.

    Now if there is sufficient evidence that the man was not at all homosexual, then grounds for a pardon is there. But if there is not. and he was indeed homosexual, then the charges and conviction under the law at the time were proper under that law. I don't see how his conviction for homosexuality, however, lowers his place in history. Anyone today would read of his conviction, roll their eyes and still consider his achievements while noting to themselves that the laws back then sucked big harry crab apples. Obviously this man has not lost respect in his fields of science among scientists of today.

    If anything, his standing conviction could place him in a position of being a hero to the LGBT community in that he was homosexual(assuming he was, I know nothing about him) at a time when it was strictly illegal. If he was gay and confessed then he could be seen as a pioneering gay rights activist. How many protestors have been arrested for maintaining their position and eventually won and were then heralded as heroes? Rosa Parks comes to mind.


    Edit: Just realized I made a mistake in my definition of Pardon. Pardon is not the overturning of a faulty conviction as I had assumed. It is forgiveness for committing a crime.

    I still don't think he should be pardoned however. Homosexuality isn't something that requires forgiveness. Forgiving implies that something wrong was done. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual. So there is nothing to forgive. This is just my opinion though, based on my perspective. I realize not all people view forgiveness the same way I do.
    Last edited by seagypsy; December 17th, 2012 at 08:40 PM.
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    It's a political point.
    Yes, sadly, Turing is dead and the damage cannot be undone.

    However, the fact that it was illegal at the time to naturally be who you are is demonstrative.
    I agree that to "forgive him" is nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Gonna play the bad guy... er um.. bad girl here. The idea of a pardon is to suggest that an innocent person was convicted of a crime. If it was actually illegal to be homosexual during his time and he was in fact homosexual, then there is no cause for a pardon. If there is, then anyone convicted of selling alcohol during prohibition era in the US also needs to be pardoned. Then that would open up a can of worms creating justification for convicting people of crimes that were not crimes when they were committed. Issuing out posthumous convictions to slave owners of the 1800's because today it is illegal to own slaves.

    Now if there is sufficient evidence that the man was not at all homosexual, then grounds for a pardon is there. But if there is not. and he was indeed homosexual, then the charges and conviction under the law at the time were proper under that law. I don't see how his conviction for homosexuality, however, lowers his place in history. Anyone today would read of his conviction, roll their eyes and still consider his achievements while noting to themselves that the laws back then sucked big harry crab apples. Obviously this man has not lost respect in his fields of science among scientists of today.

    If anything, his standing conviction could place him in a position of being a hero to the LGBT community in that he was homosexual(assuming he was, I know nothing about him) at a time when it was strictly illegal. If he was gay and confessed then he could be seen as a pioneering gay rights activist. How many protestors have been arrested for maintaining their position and eventually won and were then heralded as heroes? Rosa Parks comes to mind.


    Edit: Just realized I made a mistake in my definition of Pardon. Pardon is not the overturning of a faulty conviction as I had assumed. It is forgiveness for committing a crime.

    I still don't think he should be pardoned however. Homosexuality isn't something that requires forgiveness. Forgiving implies that something wrong was done. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual. So there is nothing to forgive. This is just my opinion though, based on my perspective. I realize not all people view forgiveness the same way I do.

    Well you make some interesting points, the British government has had this weird position in recent years of admitting things were wrong like with slavery, apolagising for them, but then not 'officially doing anything about these things', there's been lots of such incidents now. I just think the whole thing has got a bit daft. I mean can you imagine someone convicted of a crime in this day and age, then the government comes and announces you shouldn't have been convicted you didn't actually do anything wrong, but then does absolutely nothing about overturning the conviction. This position seems bonkers to me, but then hey I'm not a lawyer, they'd probarbly have some fancy way of explaining it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It's a political point.
    Yes, sadly, Turing is dead and the damage cannot be undone.

    However, the fact that it was illegal at the time to naturally be who you are is demonstrative.
    I agree that to "forgive him" is nonsense.
    I think this is somewhat of a gray area they either have to admit it shouldn't have been illegal at the time, i.e. change the law retrospectively, don't think there is any time limit on this, or just get a judge to quash the original conviction. But I'd like to see them do something so as to help untarnish the reputation of someone who should be remembered for his computer design and work on the enigma code.
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    " But I'd like to see them do something so as to help untarnish the reputation of someone who should be remembered for his computer design and work on the enigma code. "

    Alan Turing enjoyed posthumous good fortune in the matter of biographers. Andrew Hodges wrote a beautiful book about him, Alan Turing The Enigma. Then Hugh Whitemore made a fascinating play based on the book, it was called Breaking The Code.
    I would like to know why Hawking et al, decided that Turing needed to be pardoned.
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    I don't really see the point of pardoning someone who is dead. Seems like they already repealed the law, and made the necessary apologies. And what particular standing or expertise does Hawking have in the matter?
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    There has been a lot of publicity here over the work that was done at Bletchley Park, this is the home of Britains secret war time efforts to break the German communications code known as 'Enigma', at the time the Germans believed that this code was not only secure but 'unbreakable'. Alan Turing was instrumental in helping to crack the Enigma codes, I say codes because even though the Germans believed their code unbreakable they did keep updating and changing it throughout the war which meant that the British code breakers had to keep up with them and continue to respond to the changes. One of the really significant things that Turing did was come up with a design and then manufacture from scratch, using components from a post office telephone exchange, one of the worlds first computers. This was a real break through back then and allowed the allies to have intelligence in 'real time' about the contents of German orders and communications. So it has to be said from a British perspective it is difficult to over state the real contribution that Turing made to the war effort.

    So it's probarbly with this in mind that of late there has been a real push towards getting a pardon granted for Turing, perhaps in a way it's more about trying to say thank you to him for his efforts and perhaps in some way mitigate the awful way in which he was treated, personally I think that it's possibily more about trying to show his family, loved ones and friends that he is now finally being truely apprieciated for his efforts and maybe also a nod towards British pride, or at least some pride in a generation that faced the might of the Nazi's, and about their efforts, achievements and ingenuity.

    I can't honestly say whether or not it is truely right to pardon someone for something which was after all a crime at the time, but what I can say is that I believe that it would be just for such a pardon to issued, and that it would have a lot of meaning to many people, so that that in of itself makes it a worthwile endevour in my book.
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    I was going for brevity, but Dark Horse beat me to it. My Yes would have been shorter, but lacks the certainty of his/her Absolutely.

    I can't honestly say whether or not it is truely right to pardon someone for something which was after all a crime at the time,
    So you would object to the pardons for the shell shocked soldiers who were executed for cowardice in World War I?

    I don't really see the point of pardoning someone who is dead.
    That's right Harold. They can't complain. And it's really just a social stigma that remains in place. I mean we can apologise, but let's not go to the extent of pardoning the man - that would imply our apology was sincere. We can't have that, can we?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I was going for brevity, but Dark Horse beat me to it. My Yes would have been shorter, but lacks the certainty of his/her Absolutely.

    I can't honestly say whether or not it is truely right to pardon someone for something which was after all a crime at the time,
    So you would object to the pardons for the shell shocked soldiers who were executed for cowardice in World War I?
    No I wouldn't object to the pardoning of shell shocked soldiers at all, in fact again I would go so far as to apologise to their families that they were ever convicted in the first place, as well. No, the point of the line you are quoting is to highlight that I can't pass judgement on such a wide range of possibilities that the suggestion that it acceptable to pardon someone for a crime that actually was considered a crime at the time could lead to a such a precedent being set. I think in terms of the context of my whole post you can clearly see that what I am saying is I do stongly believe that there are certain individual cases such as in Turing's case where I would most definately support a pardon being granted.

    The position I'm taking on this is that I'm not conviced or comfortable with the notion of a generic precedent set where all previous crimes could be suddenly considered for a pardon, but I am accepting that there are most certainly some cases of such injustice that they should most certainly be relooked at it in a modern context with a view to righting possible wrongs and subsequently the issuing of pardons, this I feel though should be on merit for the most deserving cases, just as each case is judged on it's own merits in the courts currently when it comes to trying criminal cases.

    Perhaps you could clearly allude to your own particular reasoning on this issue.
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    Catharsis, decency and pissing of conservatives. All sound motives in my book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    That's right Harold. They can't complain. And it's really just a social stigma that remains in place. I mean we can apologise, but let's not go to the extent of pardoning the man - that would imply our apology was sincere. We can't have that, can we?
    Okay, you will draw up some papers, get some official signatures on them, and that will make you feel better about yourself? It is an empty gesture, not that it matters to me one way or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Catharsis, decency and pissing of conservatives. All sound motives in my book.
    Don't you mean "pissing off "
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    While I agree with the sentiment that he deserves a pardon. I think it would be a slap in the face to all the other men and women of the time who were also convicted of the same crime and nothing more. To say that his fame and obvious contributions to science and the war efforts entitles him to a pardon, indirectly implies that it is only for the reason of his contributions to society that he deserves a pardon. What about all the unknown individuals that never committed any crime other than being gay? Do they not deserve pardons as well? Why just Turing?

    Trying to see from the perspective of the homosexual community, I would not be impressed with a pardon of such a famed individual at this point. And the idea of forgiving him of his crime is insulting. Imagine someone telling you they forgive you for being who you are. It sounds too much like something I heard a racist pretending to be "tolerant" of other races. Frankly I find the word tolerant to be insulting as well.

    "Now people, you have to learn to tolerate the blacks. They can't help it that they were born that color and behave that way."

    The audacity!

    I think rather than an insulting pardon, there should simply be an award of some kind, A military medal or something for facing extreme adversity in the face of danger, becoming a prisoner of war, or something. The irony is that WW2 was a war against bigotry on many levels. And yet one of the most impressive minds that aided in defending against that bigotry machine was then taken prisoner by the very people his work defended simply because of bigotry.

    I think something else would be more appropriate. Perhaps a financial award to his surviving family members since they were certainly hurt by his suicide, which was surely caused by his emotional distressed cause by the conviction. A statue built in his honor stating his achievements and how he was convicted of breaking a law that had no business existing in the first place. And apologizing not only to him but everyone that was ever incarcerated for being gay.

    There should be a financial award set aside for convicts or their next of kin to claim. Or a foundation to provide free legal aid, specializing in anti-discrimination laws, to homosexuals who feel they have been discriminated against, created in his honor, named after him with the initial start up funds to come from the state.

    A simple pardon would be a cop out , an easy escape from reparations, and an insult to Turing himself and all the other men and women who were convicted of the same crime. That's just my opinion. I am not a UK citizen and I shouldn't have any say in the matter, and don't. But if I were Turing, or his sister or niece, I would accept no less. I am simply the mother of one bisexual child and the aunt to a homosexual one and the idea of pardoning feels insulting to me.

    edit: I just read that there IS statue in his honor located in Manchester UK. So now if the rest can be done, if it hasn't been already, then I would be satisfied. I honestly don't believe this conviction has besmirched his reputation at all unless, one views homosexuality in a bad way. Every site I have seen discussing his life, focuses on his achievements and honors, and the issue of his arrest and death are presented in a way to show him as being treated badly. I have seen no publication insinuating that he deserved his fate.
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    You make a very persuasive case, but one I feel is more about fairness and justice. It comes across that you wouldn't feel happy with him being singled out for a pardon purely on the basis of his status and past good works. Quite surprisingly you have altered my viewpoint on this issue, but not quite I suspect as much as you might have hoped. What you have done is reminded me of the issue of fairness and equality, and that perhaps maybe just pardoning Turing wouldn't be enough, that if we indeed do start to go down that road then we have to show that same level of fairness and equality to all those other unknown individuals who you quite rightly allude to. Perhaps it is time to try to right past wrongs, since the British government has already formerly apologised over the treatment of Turing maybe it is time that they do take the necessary steps to right the such wrongs, but indeed for 'all' those who were wronged. What I don't think you will change my mind on though is the idea that he should be pardoned, yes I can agree with you that to do this for him alone would be unfair, but I don't think that this alone is a good enough reason why he shouldn't, so I still say pardon him but also pardon everybody else who were also convicted because of such unfair and outdated laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You make a very persuasive case, but one I feel is more about fairness and justice. It comes across that you wouldn't feel happy with him being singled out for a pardon purely on the basis of his status and past good works. Quite surprisingly you have altered my viewpoint on this issue, but not quite I suspect as much as you might have hoped. What you have done is reminded me of the issue of fairness and equality, and that perhaps maybe just pardoning Turing wouldn't be enough, that if we indeed do start to go down that road then we have to show that same level of fairness and equality to all those other unknown individuals who you quite rightly allude to. Perhaps it is time to try to right past wrongs, since the British government has already formerly apologised over the treatment of Turing maybe it is time that they do take the necessary steps to right the such wrongs, but indeed for 'all' those who were wronged. What I don't think you will change my mind on though is the idea that he should be pardoned, yes I can agree with you that to do this for him alone would be unfair, but I don't think that this alone is a good enough reason why he shouldn't, so I still say pardon him but also pardon everybody else who were also convicted because of such unfair and outdated laws.
    A pardon for all I would be more willing to accept. but I think rather than pardons, the convictions should be overturned. Overturning the conviction shows that the conviction was wrong, a pardon shows that the "criminal" was wrong but deserves special consideration. I think overturning every conviction for breaking the laws against homosexuality would be more appropriate, as well as reparations perhaps along the line of the ones I suggested earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    A pardon for all I would be more willing to accept. but I think rather than pardons, the convictions should be overturned. Overturning the conviction shows that the conviction was wrong, a pardon shows that the "criminal" was wrong but deserves special consideration.
    Never thought of that but would most certainly be in favour, with logic and thinking like that perhaps we could persuade you to come over here and stand for parliment, then we might get some better legislation passed and some more sensible descisions made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    A pardon for all I would be more willing to accept. but I think rather than pardons, the convictions should be overturned. Overturning the conviction shows that the conviction was wrong, a pardon shows that the "criminal" was wrong but deserves special consideration.
    Never thought of that but would most certainly be in favour, with logic and thinking like that perhaps we could persuade you to come over here and stand for parliment, then we might get some better legislation passed and some more sensible descisions made.
    I'd probably be killed rather quickly. My logic and reasoning tends to rub certain people the wrong way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post



    edit: I just read that there IS statue in his honor located in Manchester UK. So now if the rest can be done, if it hasn't been already, then I would be satisfied. I honestly don't believe this conviction has besmirched his reputation at all unless, one views homosexuality in a bad way. Every site I have seen discussing his life, focuses on his achievements and honors, and the issue of his arrest and death are presented in a way to show him as being treated badly. I have seen no publication insinuating that he deserved his fate.

    Exactly, so why all the fuss ?
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    Pardoning him doesn't make any sense, if the crime was that he was homosexual then he was guilty of that. Its a damn shame that they looked at homosexuality as a crime. I mean what stupid fool came up with that law and why was it passed. Honestly the mentality of people in the past knows no bounds. And you cannot use that 'it was a different world' argument, its bollocks. The rational human mind comes to the same conclusion no matter what century you are from, and it just goes to prove that you have fools elected into power, supported by commonly accepted ignorant notions fuelled by a fearful and misunderstanding of human nature public, electing them EVERYWHERE and everywhen throughout history. This is why I have a problem with democracy as you see it today. Leaders elected by fearful ignorant masses, whats the difference from a dictatorship if the electees mentality is compromised? This is why I love science, it stands objectivley in defiance of all kinds of hateful dogmatic preaching and states the facts. If it weren't for science and the backbone of rationally minded people standing up for their rights as human beings we probably wouldn't be sitting here having this discussion, least of all us bringing up one mans right to be pardoned of a crime which was really a false crime, a witch hunt of sorts.

    I don't doubt for one minute people will be saying the same about us in several decades time.
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    Post-hummus awards, pardons and the like... funerals, wakes, parties and the like... When it come to those that die, everything that happens after is not about them, but about how the living cope with the memory.

    Everything that we are is about the memory.

    The purpose of the "pardon" is not for the man that is dead and has no capability no care about it. It's about the living, who must live with themselves and their own political struggles.

    The purpose is illogical, yes, but that's human nature. It sends a message the to the living. It says, "We were wrong for what we did. That should not have been illegal." The memory.
    Learning from the past is a great way to avoid its repetition.

    To pardon the man is to pardon everyone from feeling as though it is a crime to be homosexual. It makes that political impact, to make people think about their attitudes. Just leaving it in the past isn't good enough. What Hawking is looking to do is direct attention to history and say, "Look at what we have done. We must account for that and not do such things again."

    It's this kind of behavior- for the living and for the memories yet to be made that has brought about the changes in attitudes we've observed in our history.

    In order to grow up, you have to admit your failings.
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    I am rather saddened at the comments that basically as "well it WAS illegal at the time, so why pardon him". The thing it was a natural and immutable part of who he was, and the law was on the same level as saying being left handed is illegal. The pardon would be removing the criminal record and admitting the law was wrong.
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    Yes, but a pardon just says he was guilty, but he is forgiven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I don't really see the point of pardoning someone who is dead. Seems like they already repealed the law, and made the necessary apologies. And what particular standing or expertise does Hawking have in the matter?
    I agree everyone living now knows the score. Here in Washington state when pot was legalized they released all those awaiting trial for simple possession, and I believe they will be addressing those already convicted of that same no longer a crime. The point is all these people are still alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I am rather saddened at the comments that basically as "well it WAS illegal at the time, so why pardon him". The thing it was a natural and immutable part of who he was, and the law was on the same level as saying being left handed is illegal. The pardon would be removing the criminal record and admitting the law was wrong.
    But the law was wrong. What's wrong with admitting it? Well changing the law is the same as admitting it, isn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Yes, but a pardon just says he was guilty, but he is forgiven.
    Hmm, Im not sure, does the British legal system regard it as the American system does? There doesnt seem to be a closer legal term for the situation here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I am rather saddened at the comments that basically as "well it WAS illegal at the time, so why pardon him". The thing it was a natural and immutable part of who he was, and the law was on the same level as saying being left handed is illegal. The pardon would be removing the criminal record and admitting the law was wrong.
    But the law was wrong. What's wrong with admitting it? Well changing the law is the same as admitting it, isn't it?
    The law has been removed by the British, but the problem is that those charged with the crime of buggery still have the crimial record that is associated with the law (as I understand it), thus they are still regarded legally as past criminals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I am rather saddened at the comments that basically as "well it WAS illegal at the time, so why pardon him". The thing it was a natural and immutable part of who he was, and the law was on the same level as saying being left handed is illegal. The pardon would be removing the criminal record and admitting the law was wrong.
    But the law was wrong. What's wrong with admitting it? Well changing the law is the same as admitting it, isn't it?
    The law has been removed by the British, but the problem is that those charged with the crime of buggery still have the crimial record that is associated with the law (as I understand it), thus they are still regarded legally as past criminals.
    It would be better that all citizens that have ever been convicted of the previous crime have their convictions overturned. stricken from the record. a pardon doesn't really clear your past record, it only says you are forgiven. But one should not have to be forgiven for something that should have never been deemed wrong in the first place. A pardon for this one man would not be fair. All convictions for every citizen need to be overturned.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    As you can see, I side what seagypsy has said on several points. And if it's done for Turing, then why not everyone else for everything that's no longer a crime?

    Everyone should consider a legal principle called stare decisis, which says that once a decision in a case has been made and all appeals have been exhausted, the case should not be revisited or revised except for the most extraordinary of reasons. I wish to differentiate this from precedent, which Wikipedia seems to equate to it. I'm referring to the decision in a particular case and the revisiting of that particular case, and not the overturning a precedent. In fact, in the normal course of law, even when a precedent is overturned, the old case is not revisited and its decision is not revised.

    Revisiting and revising individual cases, or even offering pardons, would be rather continually laborsome and expensive tasks as humanity constantly progresses, and more than just the change in convictions, there would be restitution to victims and families for false imprisonment, loss of relationships, loss of wages, etc. You're talking a big, big, big can of worms. If it turned out to be wrong to convict them, then didn't prosecutors wrongfully convict them? Consider, for example, those young adults convicted of having sex with slightly underaged persons (although within five years of their own age), which is now legal in some jurisdictions, so all those cases would need to be revisited and revised to wipe out those convictions, monetary restitution given to those formerly convicted, etc. Consider the dropping of the drinking age in America to 18 and then raising it again to 21.

    More importantly, in looking at the present and the future, people today might feel justified in committing crimes that they feel should not be crimes because they think that such acts will be decriminalized at some point in the future (hopefully the near future). Anarchy.

    Perhaps Hawkings is bewailing the apparent loss to the field of computer science due to Turing's downfall and suicide.
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    "Downfall" and suicide? He was forcibly sterilized by the government and ostracized for being gay. This caused him to take his life. This is more then just a legal wronging of him, it was physical harm to him do to an immutable part of his being, This is a situation where the buggery charges should be removed from the records of those who were convicted of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    pissing of conservatives.
    I did that once. Like any other kidney stone, but more judgmental.

    As for the actual argument, maybe it's just a soft side of me but I'm with Paleo. You can say that what he did WAS illegal at the time, but that seems like a funny way to stymie a pardon. I mean, it WAS legal to own slaves in America so I don't see why African Americans today are still so upset about it. We didn't do anything wrong, after all.

    Come on.

    If it's such a hollow gesture, then let the people who want it just have it. It apparently means something to them. Like Paleo said, we don't celebrate the dead for the sake of the dead. This apparently has some importance to quite a few living people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    "Downfall" and suicide? He was forcibly sterilized by the government and ostracized for being gay. This caused him to take his life. This is more then just a legal wronging of him, it was physical harm to him do to an immutable part of his being, This is a situation where the buggery charges should be removed from the records of those who were convicted of it.
    My mind was vague on the exact circumstances when I wrote that post; I remember now that he was chemically castrated.

    The UK government already rejected a request in 2012 to pardon Turing.

    Changing history by removing buggery charges/convictions from the records is rather incongruous, fictitious and fraught with endless difficulties and ramifications as whenever anyone falsifies. In doing so, we would also need to change history to read that the government chemically castrated Turing unlawfully (and so why weren't officials charged with such a heinous act?) and that Turing committed suicide because of it, or that the government never chemically castrated Turing who then committed suicide for no apparent reason (poor chappy must have been horribly depressed). How far will the fictitiousness extend? Will it include Holocaust denial but in reverse? Will those who arrested, charged, held, transported, defended, convicted and/or chemically castrated Turing be banned/censored from ever mentioning what supposedly happened? All sorts of records would require expunging, from the police criminal investigation report of a breaking and entering of Turing's house, to Lord Sharkey's Alan Turing (Statutory Pardon) Bill, and all the media publications, broadcast records, social network pages, etc of all these events (including these forum posts and YouTube videos).

    We cannot change former wrongs by turning a blind eye to them.

    Remember George Santayana's eternal adage —

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    "Downfall" and suicide? He was forcibly sterilized by the government and ostracized for being gay. This caused him to take his life. This is more then just a legal wronging of him, it was physical harm to him do to an immutable part of his being, This is a situation where the buggery charges should be removed from the records of those who were convicted of it.
    My mind was vague on the exact circumstances when I wrote that post; I remember now that he was chemically castrated.

    The UK government already rejected a request in 2012 to pardon Turing.

    Changing history by removing buggery charges/convictions from the records is rather incongruous, fictitious and fraught with endless difficulties and ramifications as whenever anyone falsifies. In doing so, we would also need to change history to read that the government chemically castrated Turing unlawfully (and so why weren't officials charged with such a heinous act?) and that Turing committed suicide because of it, or that the government never chemically castrated Turing who then committed suicide for no apparent reason (poor chappy must have been horribly depressed). How far will the fictitiousness extend? Will it include Holocaust denial but in reverse? Will those who arrested, charged, held, transported, defended, convicted and/or chemically castrated Turing be banned/censored from ever mentioning what supposedly happened? All sorts of records would require expunging, from the police criminal investigation report of a breaking and entering of Turing's house, to Lord Sharkey's Alan Turing (Statutory Pardon) Bill, and all the media publications, broadcast records, social network pages, etc of all these events (including these forum posts and YouTube videos).

    We cannot change former wrongs by turning a blind eye to them.

    Remember George Santayana's eternal adage —

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Who said anything about turning a blind eye or erasing the events from the history books??? Removing the buggery conviction in no way would be doing that, and the history will still accurately record that he was wronged. He was not castrated unlawfully he was castrated wrongfully.

    You are implying much more in the concept of removing the buggery charge then anyone has at any point suggested, and are moving very close to a strawman argument with the suggestion that it requires the purposeful cover-up of what happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Gonna play the bad guy... er um.. bad girl here. The idea of a pardon is to suggest that an innocent person was convicted of a crime. If it was actually illegal to be homosexual during his time and he was in fact homosexual, then there is no cause for a pardon. If there is, then anyone convicted of selling alcohol during prohibition era in the US also needs to be pardoned. Then that would open up a can of worms creating justification for convicting people of crimes that were not crimes when they were committed. Issuing out posthumous convictions to slave owners of the 1800's because today it is illegal to own slaves.

    Now if there is sufficient evidence that the man was not at all homosexual, then grounds for a pardon is there. But if there is not. and he was indeed homosexual, then the charges and conviction under the law at the time were proper under that law. I don't see how his conviction for homosexuality, however, lowers his place in history. Anyone today would read of his conviction, roll their eyes and still consider his achievements while noting to themselves that the laws back then sucked big harry crab apples. Obviously this man has not lost respect in his fields of science among scientists of today.

    If anything, his standing conviction could place him in a position of being a hero to the LGBT community in that he was homosexual(assuming he was, I know nothing about him) at a time when it was strictly illegal. If he was gay and confessed then he could be seen as a pioneering gay rights activist. How many protestors have been arrested for maintaining their position and eventually won and were then heralded as heroes? Rosa Parks comes to mind.


    Edit: Just realized I made a mistake in my definition of Pardon. Pardon is not the overturning of a faulty conviction as I had assumed. It is forgiveness for committing a crime.

    I still don't think he should be pardoned however. Homosexuality isn't something that requires forgiveness. Forgiving implies that something wrong was done. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual. So there is nothing to forgive. This is just my opinion though, based on my perspective. I realize not all people view forgiveness the same way I do.
    impressive - although I'm an admirer of Turing and his contribution at Bletchley - I can't fault this logic !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Removing the buggery conviction ...

    ... removing the buggery charge ...
    conviction = the guilty finding of an offense charged
    charge = an accusation or indictment

    I responded to the language used —

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    This is a situation where the buggery charges should be removed ...
    And actually removing a conviction would involve something like exoneration not merely a pardon.

    pardon = the release of a person from further punishment for a crime, often involving release from incarceration
    exoneration = the freeing of a person from the imputation of guilt

    However, exoneration actually means the acknowledgement that the person did not commit the act for which he was charged/convicted. For example, Sacco and Vanzetti might be exonerated of having never committed the deadly armed robbery of which they were charged and convicted (and executed).

    Yet, Alan Turing apparently did engage in homosexual relations. So, what you mean sounds more like jury nullification

    jury nullification = the acquittal of a defendant who is technically guilty, but who does not deserve conviction or punishment, typically because the jury finds the statute to be "bad law"

    And for Alan Turing, the court would perform this nullification nunc pro tunc

    nunc pro tunc = Latin "now for then", to apply a court ruling retroactively

    Sorry to get so exact about this, but I don't know a word that would cover what you seek. An invented word would be "unconvict". It would amount to nullifying the law retroactively, and I think that such a thing has never been done.
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    Im interested, why are you against it happening though?
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    I think it would be more of "feel good" gesture than anything else. Turing's legacy is for his brilliant mathmatical skills, code breaking ability, and help with the birth of modern computing. His work saved countless Allied soldier's lives...and that is what people remember him for. Nobody today faults him for liking to play the "skin flute" on the side. Although I did learn something from this thread...I was unaware he committed suicide. That's a damn shame.

    It just amazes me, with my not-very-mathmatical mind, how someone could decipher the Enigma machine. With all those dials and wheels and combinations....I don't even know where you would start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Nobody today faults him for liking to play the "skin flute" on the side. .
    Never heard the term " skin flute "
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Nobody today faults him for liking to play the "skin flute" on the side. .
    Never heard the term " skin flute "
    Neither have I, however the meaning was very clear.
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    I don't think the pardon is necessary, having said that - maybe apologizing on behalf of the government for the law and everyone who got persecuted because of it would be amiable. Pardoning Turing won't do anything. I think the real principle here is recognizing and admitting when a government did something wrong, and apologizing for that.

    Edit: Granting the obvious redundancy if it already has.
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    In my view what the kingdom did to Turing was unpardonable.

    The kingdom should be executed, overthrown in a republican revolution and consigned to the dustbin of history.

    Scum who believe the power of the state is always right, crucifying Jesus was legal at the time according to the Roman Empire so OK never mind, gassing Jews was legal according to the Reich so OK never mind etc. ...

    ... such scum ought to be shunned from decent company, invited to set up a state of their own far away from decent people like us and given a boot up the backside to help them on their way.

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    I guess the snowy weather is keeping you indoors these days Peter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Is stephen Hawking correct, should Alan Turing be given a posthumous pardon?
    Turing of course was a mathematician and most famous for designing a computer to help crack the enigma code back in the 1940's. But it was in 1952 when he fell from grace eventually being convicted of homosexuality, something that is certainly not now regarded as a crime in our era.
    The idea behind the pardon has come up thanks to a private member's bill introduced in the House of Lords by Lord Sharkey, a Liberal Democrat peer. It was then followed up by a letter from Stephen Hawking, the world-renowned physicist, and 10 other signatories suggesting David Cameron should "formally forgive" Turing. Amongst the other signatories are Lord Rees, the astronomer royal, Sir Paul Nurse, the head of the Royal Society, and Lady Trumpington, who worked for Turing during the war.

    It was only in 2009 that the then prime minister Gordon Brown made a posthumous apology to Turing, describing his treatment as "appalling". But strangely he was not officially pardoned.

    Previous attempts to obtain a pardon for Turing have failed, so now perhaps now with the support of world famous scientists such as Stephen Hawking is it time that Turing is pardoned to have his name cleared so he can once again retake his rightful place in British history?

    Enigma hero Alan Turing 'should be pardoned for historic gay conviction', says Stephen Hawking | Mail Online
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    Pardon's are given with broad discretion including if the law that was violated was bad law.

    Yes, Yes, Yes absolutely Alan Turing should be given one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Pardon's are given with broad discretion including if the law that was violated was bad law.

    Yes, Yes, Yes absolutely Alan Turing should be given one.
    The Queen has pardoned Alan Turing, but the link will not play the game.
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    To the best of my understanding, pardons here in the usa are given by the executive--governor or president.
    It seems that many(most?) are given just before leaving office.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Pardon's are given with broad discretion including if the law that was violated was bad law.

    Yes, Yes, Yes absolutely Alan Turing should be given one.
    The Queen has pardoned Alan Turing, but the link will not play the game.
    Caught this on the news earlier myself, cheers Dave for posting it , great news really and couldn't have happened at a better time. A wonderful Christmas present for his family and all his supporters!
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    The queen is a ceremonial head of state with no actual political power. The pardon is a moot point, Mr. Turing having died some time ago. It appears to me to be quasi-religious ceremony, like a priest praying for the souls of the departed. It seems to have some importance for some people, though.
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    Do we then go back and pardon everyone that was accused of things that now are accepted in certain societies?
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    ex post facto
    .............
    gee, what fun
    we could go out to the old graveyards, and dig up and arrest every dude that had sex with a woman under the current age of consent, try their rotten corpses, convict 'em, then chisel into their grave stones:
    "Convicted sex offender"
    .....................
    works both ways?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    ex post facto
    .............
    gee, what fun
    we could go out to the old graveyards, and dig up and arrest every dude that had sex with a woman under the current age of consent, try their rotten corpses, convict 'em, then chisel into their grave stones:
    "Convicted sex offender"
    .....................
    works both ways?
    You are one sick puppy.
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    some days
    fersure
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    ex post facto
    .............
    gee, what fun
    we could go out to the old graveyards, and dig up and arrest every dude that had sex with a woman under the current age of consent, try their rotten corpses, convict 'em, then chisel into their grave stones:
    "Convicted sex offender"
    .....................
    works both ways?
    You are one sick puppy.
    Tried to insert a smiley after my post, but it will not fly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The queen is a ceremonial head of state with no actual political power. The pardon is a moot point, Mr. Turing having died some time ago. It appears to me to be quasi-religious ceremony, like a priest praying for the souls of the departed. It seems to have some importance for some people, though.
    I'm sorry to say that you are most certainly somewhat mistaken on this particular issue. Though it's both fair and true to say that the queen acts mainly as a ceremonial figurehead for the United Kingdom in actually she has considerable powers should she choose to exercise them.

    Normally executive powers are enacted through the UK government on her behalf, though these are to some degree limited by parliment, there have and still are times when the queen exercises her power without recourse to parliment. But be in no doubt here the Queen does indeed have the right to rule, the people of Britain are not citizens, but subjects of the monarch. Most public servants must swear an oath of loyalty, or make an affirmation of their loyalty, to the crown.

    In 1972 Edward Heath brought Britain into the EEC and parliament was not even consulted until afterwards. Also in 1982 Margaret Thatcher used royal prerogative to take the UK to war in the Falklands.

    When it comes to exercising her power directly the queen usually 'chooses' not to, this avoid any potential political crisis, certainly though not because she can't. One of the powers that the queen has that many people are unaware of is the ability to choose her own prime minister, this is usually based on the political party with a clear majority, however in cases of no overall majority then the queen can certainly make the difference as nearly happened in February 1974, when Labour failed to win an overall majority but the Conservatives considered power-sharing with the Liberals.

    Other powers that the Queen has are the power to enact legislation, to award honours, to sign treaties and to declare war and all by royal prerogative, so please be under no illusion about the Queen's actual power.
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    the queen still has the power to disolve parliament?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    the queen still has the power to disolve parliament?
    That is a somewhat more complicated issue, the reason being here is that parliment passed an act that requires a fixed percentage requirement of MP's voting for parliment to be dissolved if it is prior to the fixed 5 year term, obviously in order to pass this act parliment required the Queen's royal assent, so it may be possible for this assent could be withdrawn and parliment dissolved. In any event it would probably cause some constitutional problems and with the outcome uncertain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    ex post facto
    .............
    gee, what fun
    we could go out to the old graveyards, and dig up and arrest every dude that had sex with a woman under the current age of consent, try their rotten corpses, convict 'em, then chisel into their grave stones:
    "Convicted sex offender"
    .....................
    works both ways?
    This has actually been done - Oliver Cromwell, dug up and executed.
    Oliver Cromwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Relevant:

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I mean we can apologise, but let's not go to the extent of pardoning the man - that would imply our apology was sincere. We can't have that, can we?

    I'm against pardoning only because it may wash away history. Let his conviction stand as a reminder of the horrors that many had to endure. Let it serve as a marker for how far (or little for that matter) we've come as a world. It may be hyperbolic but look at the concentration camps from WWII. Many wanted those places bulldozed, but if we do that, how quickly do we forget? We shouldn't be allowed to forget. If we have a gigantic rotting prison standing there it makes it a little hard to forget, as a matter of fact it forces us to remember and stares us in the face. It makes it that much harder for someone to try crap like again. But if we remove it, it gives just a little bit more doubt to add to the holocaust deniers propaganda. "where are the camps, huh?"

    If this fellow is pardoned how soon do we forget what happened to him and how soon does something like that persecution come back around again. He'll always be famous for his Computer and we shouldn't be allowed to forget how he was treated. A pardon may sweep the injustices done to him away, and that would be tragic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If this fellow is pardoned how soon do we forget what happened to him and how soon does something like that persecution come back around again.
    I fail to see how a pronouncement by a figurehead of state will affect whether anything is remembered or not.
    He'll always be famous for his Computer and we shouldn't be allowed to forget how he was treated. A pardon may sweep the injustices done to him away, and that would be tragic.
    How does a pardon "sweep the injustices away"? You seem to put a lot of stock into the queen's pronouncement. Does she have some magical powers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I mean we can apologise, but let's not go to the extent of pardoning the man - that would imply our apology was sincere. We can't have that, can we?

    I'm against pardoning only because it may wash away history. Let his conviction stand as a reminder of the horrors that many had to endure. Let it serve as a marker for how far (or little for that matter) we've come as a world. It may be hyperbolic but look at the concentration camps from WWII. Many wanted those places bulldozed, but if we do that, how quickly do we forget? We shouldn't be allowed to forget. If we have a gigantic rotting prison standing there it makes it a little hard to forget, as a matter of fact it forces us to remember and stares us in the face. It makes it that much harder for someone to try crap like again. But if we remove it, it gives just a little bit more doubt to add to the holocaust deniers propaganda. "where are the camps, huh?"

    If this fellow is pardoned how soon do we forget what happened to him and how soon does something like that persecution come back around again. He'll always be famous for his Computer and we shouldn't be allowed to forget how he was treated. A pardon may sweep the injustices done to him away, and that would be tragic.
    Sorry but I actually feel that a pardon reflects our ability to learn from past mistakes and to show that we are not bound by them. It demonstrates that at this time we are capable of understanding that it shouldn't be a crime to gay and that where possible our society should have this message reinforced from the top down.

    I also think it's a important step forward for his supporters and family that have had to live with this stain upon his reputation for decades, if for nothing else than to give them peace of mind then this pardon is still a huge success and has been a worthwhile endeavour.

    It doesn't make us forget injustices of the past it reminds us of those very injustices and our determination that where possible such injustices should be set right and that such injustices shouldn't and won't ever be repeated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I mean we can apologise, but let's not go to the extent of pardoning the man - that would imply our apology was sincere. We can't have that, can we?

    I'm against pardoning only because it may wash away history. Let his conviction stand as a reminder of the horrors that many had to endure. Let it serve as a marker for how far (or little for that matter) we've come as a world. It may be hyperbolic but look at the concentration camps from WWII. Many wanted those places bulldozed, but if we do that, how quickly do we forget? We shouldn't be allowed to forget. If we have a gigantic rotting prison standing there it makes it a little hard to forget, as a matter of fact it forces us to remember and stares us in the face. It makes it that much harder for someone to try crap like again. But if we remove it, it gives just a little bit more doubt to add to the holocaust deniers propaganda. "where are the camps, huh?"

    If this fellow is pardoned how soon do we forget what happened to him and how soon does something like that persecution come back around again. He'll always be famous for his Computer and we shouldn't be allowed to forget how he was treated. A pardon may sweep the injustices done to him away, and that would be tragic.
    Sorry but I actually feel that a pardon reflects our ability to learn from past mistakes and to show that we are not bound by them. It demonstrates that at this time we are capable of understanding that it shouldn't be a crime to gay and that where possible our society should have this message reinforced from the top down.

    I also think it's a important step forward for his supporters and family that have had to live with this stain upon his reputation for decades, if for nothing else than to give them peace of mind then this pardon is still a huge success and has been a worthwhile endeavour.

    It doesn't make us forget injustices of the past it reminds us of those very injustices and our determination that where possible such injustices should be set right and that such injustices shouldn't and won't ever be repeated.
    No need to apologize, we just disagree. I think the pardon would do more for the state than the person. Eventually the injustice of the government against him will be forgotten if he's pardoned, that he was prosecuted for nonsense, effectively diminishing the criminal state that government can be. They apologized, thats good as far as recognition, but let the conviction stand as what kind of bastards government can be. you wipe it away and now it's like the government didn't persecute him. (at least it's more likely to be forgotten) So, from my eyes the pardon does more for the government than it does for him especially since he's dead... now if he were living that would be a different story.
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    pardon does more for the government


    The government is the people--that's why it is important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I'm against pardoning only because it may wash away history. Let his conviction stand as a reminder of the horrors that many had to endure.
    A pardon does not wash away a conviction. It is simply a recognition that, while a crime has occurred, the punishment will be foregone due to some extenuating circumstances. This is particularly pointless after the punishment has already occurred.

    May I suggest sacrificing a goat? It used to help the ancient Jews to expunge their guilt during the days of atonement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I'm against pardoning only because it may wash away history. Let his conviction stand as a reminder of the horrors that many had to endure.
    A pardon does not wash away a conviction. It is simply a recognition that, while a crime has occurred, the punishment will be foregone due to some extenuating circumstances. This is particularly pointless after the punishment has already occurred.

    May I suggest sacrificing a goat? It used to help the ancient Jews to expunge their guilt during the days of atonement.
    Your view is too narrow, at least in the US, there is no Constitutional established standard....it is done for what ever reason the President thinks it should be done...and often Presidents and State Governors have included correcting bad laws as among reasons for pardons. I guess whether it's pointless is in the eye of the people. There's was powerful symbolism to acknowledge that anti-gay laws were incorrect--an example of the types of symbolism that are the hallmark of political leadership and mark important turning point people can use to illustrate progress. It is probably the best of all reasons for pardons, especially after the victim of social injustice is dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I'm against pardoning only because it may wash away history. Let his conviction stand as a reminder of the horrors that many had to endure.
    A pardon does not wash away a conviction. It is simply a recognition that, while a crime has occurred, the punishment will be foregone due to some extenuating circumstances. This is particularly pointless after the punishment has already occurred.

    May I suggest sacrificing a goat? It used to help the ancient Jews to expunge their guilt during the days of atonement.
    Your view is too narrow, at least in the US, there is no Constitutional established standard....it is done for what ever reason the President thinks it should be done...and often Presidents and State Governors have included correcting bad laws as among reasons for pardons. I guess whether it's pointless is in the eye of the people. There's was powerful symbolism to acknowledge that anti-gay laws were incorrect--an example of the types of symbolism that are the hallmark of political leadership and mark important turning point people can use to illustrate progress. It is probably the best of all reasons for pardons, especially after the victim of social injustice is dead.
    A pardon helps who, exactly? Now that he's dead it's like pardoning ourselves for our own bad behavior...especially since he did nothing wrong. If this guy is pardoned we can carry on like the state never did anything wrong. I mean, after all, if he's pardoned, what reason is there to talk about our own bad behavior anymore? (in this instance, that is.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    A pardon helps who, exactly? Now that he's dead it's like pardoning ourselves for our own bad behavior...especially since he did nothing wrong. If this guy is pardoned we can carry on like the state never did anything wrong. I mean, after all, if he's pardoned, what reason is there to talk about our own bad behavior anymore? (in this instance, that is.)
    It helps everyone. It is something point at, a mark on the calendar and event and to be recorded in the history books and taught to our children as symbolic when "We the people" (or it's equivalent in free societies) recognized that a past law was wrong and that we are now more tolerant and enlightened. It also becomes a precedent considered by future heads of state and courts for measuring public resolve and progress on a social issue. It becomes part of the standard by which you assess contemporary "bad behaviors" as you put it.

    You might not appreciate such events but it plays a critical role in defining cultural views for current citizens, the type of society their children will live in, and how future historians will view the merits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    A pardon helps who, exactly? Now that he's dead it's like pardoning ourselves for our own bad behavior...especially since he did nothing wrong. If this guy is pardoned we can carry on like the state never did anything wrong. I mean, after all, if he's pardoned, what reason is there to talk about our own bad behavior anymore? (in this instance, that is.)
    It helps everyone. It is something point at, a mark on the calendar and event and to be recorded in the history books and taught to our children as symbolic when "We the people" (or it's equivalent in free societies) recognized that a past law was wrong and that we are now more tolerant and enlightened. It also becomes a precedent considered by future heads of state and courts for measuring public resolve and progress on a social issue. It becomes part of the standard by which you assess contemporary "bad behaviors" as you put it.
    I like this, what you wrote. This idea. But, I suppose I'm more pessimistic than you, though. If it's a point on the calendar and it stays that way then great. I'm all for it. I just don't see it developing like that. I see it as a reason to forget we were once like that.

    as it is now these are the conversations I can see appearing... (using this thread as the basis of course.)

    A
    1-"Alan Turing was a great mind."
    2-"He sure was. It's a shame what the government did to that guy"
    1-"agreed completely barbaric. He should be pardoned"
    2- "I agree"
    Under this conversation we all still know.

    B
    30 years from after a pardon was granted
    1-"Alan Turing was a great mind."
    2-"He sure was. It's a shame what the government did to that guy"
    1- "Agreed! Completely barbaric, But it sure is nice they finally pardoned him some 40-50 years later"
    2-" yeah, 30 years ago today!"
    Under this converssation some of us still know

    C
    and then 30 years after the last conversation
    1-"Alan Turing was a great mind."
    2-"He sure was."
    Under this conversation probably nobody knows and those that do are considered crack pots... Let it stay on the books.

    The way it plays out in my head is that eventually the state gets forgotten for all of it's wrong doing because based on the pardon no one feels the need to talk about the injustices anymore.

    If he is never pardoned Conversation A is always had and his suffering remains for all to see and feel.

    How many years will pass before a generation has no idea Galileo was ostracized by the catholic church for his discoveries in astronomy? Galileo was pardoned in 1992... but for 350 years him being shunned was always part of his story. There is no need to tell that part anymore because of the pardon. It's washed away and is now lily white.


    You might not appreciate such events but it plays a critical role in defining cultural views for current citizens, the type of society their children will live in, and how future historians will view the merits.
    I definitely appreciate the sentiment behind the motion. I just think it does more to clean our conscience than it does for Alan. It should stick around and it should sting as a reminder from what we are moving away from and what we no longer are or want to be. It should be there to force us to talk about it, to remember that stuff happened. If we've "fixed it" no need to dwell on it anymore and that would be tragic.

    Besides, you think one pardon is going to shape the views of the current citizens? Jesus, man, I'd love to be that optimistic.
    Last edited by grmpysmrf; January 14th, 2014 at 01:17 AM. Reason: more clarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It helps everyone. It is something point at, a mark on the calendar and event and to be recorded in the history books and taught to our children as symbolic when "We the people" (or it's equivalent in free societies) recognized that a past law was wrong and that we are now more tolerant and enlightened.
    History tells us that our descendants will almost certainly record how our generation was so unenlightened as to (fill in the blank with some value we now hold that will be obsolete). They will be ashamed of us and have some sort of event (holding a pardoning ceremony, driving a scapegoat into the wilderness, etc.) to mark how they are so much more enlightened than we are and cleanse their souls of our sins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    A pardon helps who, exactly? Now that he's dead it's like pardoning ourselves for our own bad behavior...especially since he did nothing wrong. If this guy is pardoned we can carry on like the state never did anything wrong. I mean, after all, if he's pardoned, what reason is there to talk about our own bad behavior anymore? (in this instance, that is.)
    It helps everyone. It is something point at, a mark on the calendar and event and to be recorded in the history books and taught to our children as symbolic when "We the people" (or it's equivalent in free societies) recognized that a past law was wrong and that we are now more tolerant and enlightened. It also becomes a precedent considered by future heads of state and courts for measuring public resolve and progress on a social issue. It becomes part of the standard by which you assess contemporary "bad behaviors" as you put it.
    I like this, what you wrote. This idea. But, I suppose I'm more pessimistic than you, though. If it's a point on the calendar and it stays that way then great. I'm all for it. I just don't see it developing like that. I see it as a reason to forget we were once like that.

    as it is now these are the conversations I can see appearing... (using this thread as the basis of course.)

    A
    1-"Alan Turing was a great mind."
    2-"He sure was. It's a shame what the government did to that guy"
    1-"agreed completely barbaric. He should be pardoned"
    2- "I agree"
    Under this conversation we all still know.

    B
    30 years from after a pardon was granted
    1-"Alan Turing was a great mind."
    2-"He sure was. It's a shame what the government did to that guy"
    1- "Agreed! Completely barbaric, But it sure is nice they finally pardoned him some 40-50 years later"
    2-" yeah, 30 years ago today!"
    Under this converssation some of us still know

    C
    and then 30 years after the last conversation
    1-"Alan Turing was a great mind."
    2-"He sure was."
    Under this conversation probably nobody knows and those that do are considered crack pots... Let it stay on the books.

    The way it plays out in my head is that eventually the state gets forgotten for all of it's wrong doing because based on the pardon no one feels the need to talk about the injustices anymore.

    If he is never pardoned Conversation A is always had and his suffering remains for all to see and feel.

    How many years will pass before a generation has no idea Galileo was ostracized by the catholic church for his discoveries in astronomy? Galileo was pardoned in 1992... but for 350 years him being shunned was always part of his story. There is no need to tell that part anymore because of the pardon. It's washed away and is now lily white.


    You might not appreciate such events but it plays a critical role in defining cultural views for current citizens, the type of society their children will live in, and how future historians will view the merits.
    I definitely appreciate the sentiment behind the motion. I just think it does more to clean our conscience than it does for Alan. It should stick around and it should sting as a reminder from what we are moving away from and what we no longer are or want to be. It should be there to force us to talk about it, to remember that stuff happened. If we've "fixed it" no need to dwell on it anymore and that would be tragic.

    Besides, you think one pardon is going to shape the views of the current citizens? Jesus, man, I'd love to be that optimistic.
    So your argument is that at no point should the abhorrent act that caused him to take his life be acknowledged as wrong by the government?

    What evidence do you have that that fact of his chemical castration and subsequent suicide is now going to be removed from history books and not taught? Especially given his importance in LGBT history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    History tells us that our descendants will almost certainly record how our generation was so unenlightened as to (fill in the blank with some value we now hold that will be obsolete). They will be ashamed of us and have some sort of event (holding a pardoning ceremony, driving a scapegoat into the wilderness, etc.) to mark how they are so much more enlightened than we are and cleanse their souls of our sins.
    I don't know about the scape goats comment. But history of Western democracies has been to strongly trend towards increased tolerance and acceptance of individual rights--religion, race, gender, the handicapped and now sex preference.

    There's still a lot of work yet to do before we are a truly free society--I hope our descendents continue that trend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So your argument is that at no point should the abhorrent act that caused him to take his life be acknowledged as wrong by the government?
    There was an apology. but I think that is where the acknowledgement should end for the reasons I've stated.



    What evidence do you have that that fact of his chemical castration and subsequent suicide is now going to be removed from history books and not taught? Especially given his importance in LGBT history.
    Evidence? no evidence, but I'd like to think I know a little about human behavior and given the opportunity to pretend like something never happened or to "forget" that it did happen, people are generally quick to jump on opportunities like that, especially if they think it will clear their conscience.

    I'd rather not take that chance. That guy suffered and any opportunity to let the state walk away from that suffering is injustice and that's what I think the Pardon does. It lets the state walk away.

    Chemical castration and suicide all wiped away cause the state was able to say "We know we were wrong.. All forgiven?" I'd like to think his suffering is worth a lot more than that. I think He EARNED that pink triangle let him wear it as a badge and let no state ever take it away from him. "that's right! I'm gay and look what you did to me for it!!!" that's worth more than any "pardon!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So your argument is that at no point should the abhorrent act that caused him to take his life be acknowledged as wrong by the government?
    There was an apology. but I think that is where the acknowledgement should end for the reasons I've stated.



    What evidence do you have that that fact of his chemical castration and subsequent suicide is now going to be removed from history books and not taught? Especially given his importance in LGBT history.
    Evidence? no evidence, but I'd like to think I know a little about human behavior and given the opportunity to pretend like something never happened or to "forget" that it did happen, people are generally quick to jump on opportunities like that, especially if they think it will clear their conscience.

    I'd rather not take that chance. That guy suffered and any opportunity to let the state walk away from that suffering is injustice and that's what I think the Pardon does. It lets the state walk away.

    Chemical castration and suicide all wiped away cause the state was able to say "We know we were wrong.. All forgiven?" I'd like to think his suffering is worth a lot more than that. I think He EARNED that pink triangle let him wear it as a badge and let no state ever take it away from him. "that's right! I'm gay and look what you did to me for it!!!" that's worth more than any "pardon!"
    what evidence do you have that the LGBT community will just try to, or let others, sweep this under the rug so to speak?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So your argument is that at no point should the abhorrent act that caused him to take his life be acknowledged as wrong by the government?
    There was an apology. but I think that is where the acknowledgement should end for the reasons I've stated.



    What evidence do you have that that fact of his chemical castration and subsequent suicide is now going to be removed from history books and not taught? Especially given his importance in LGBT history.
    Evidence? no evidence, but I'd like to think I know a little about human behavior and given the opportunity to pretend like something never happened or to "forget" that it did happen, people are generally quick to jump on opportunities like that, especially if they think it will clear their conscience.

    I'd rather not take that chance. That guy suffered and any opportunity to let the state walk away from that suffering is injustice and that's what I think the Pardon does. It lets the state walk away.

    Chemical castration and suicide all wiped away cause the state was able to say "We know we were wrong.. All forgiven?" I'd like to think his suffering is worth a lot more than that. I think He EARNED that pink triangle let him wear it as a badge and let no state ever take it away from him. "that's right! I'm gay and look what you did to me for it!!!" that's worth more than any "pardon!"
    what evidence do you have that the LGBT community will just try to, or let others, sweep this under the rug so to speak?
    I have profound respect for GLAAD as well as any organization that represents any oppressed minorities, but really this is one they don't need to campaign on if it's left alone. The situation speaks for itself.

    Don't get me wrong, it's a thoughtful (even if empty) gesture, it's just way too late since he's not here to accept it. How do we know how he would accept it? leave it alone and let history speak for itself instead of throwing one more thing on GLAAD's plate to have to champion. Just because the state is supposedly sorry for their actions doesn't change the fact that he was gay.

    Think of it like the "cool kids" at high school picking on you for being a loser after you did their homework for them, and they just make your life a living hell. Then one day the teacher finds out that you did their homework for them and all of the sudden they see the error of their ways and they want to say they are sorry... Is that really an apology you want after the living hell they put you through? is that really an apology he wants after the robbed him of his dignity and his life? Me? I say no way and get out of my face with that nonsense. the school will know what you did to me for generations to come. That's fine you can let it be known that you're sorry, but I'll be damned if the school is going to accept that apology on my behalf.
    ya' dig?
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    Who said anything about Glaad? I certainly did not.

    And I would contend that it is not an empty gesture, as it shows a change in the way the LGBT is perceived, and for many young LGBT or questioning people, the knowledge that this is NOT how the government wants them treated is a positive result of this.

    Its a lot more complex then you are seeming to make this out to be.

    No I do not accept that analogy.
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    Is a "Royal Pardon" a thing? Is that better than an ordinary pardon?

    I'd demand a Royal Pardon for such a thing. The conviction and sentencing itself was the most criminal thing about the whole affair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Who said anything about Glaad? I certainly did not.
    Didn't know GLAAD had nothing to do with LGBT...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    And I would contend that it is not an empty gesture, as it shows a change in the way the LGBT is perceived, and for many young LGBT or questioning people, the knowledge that this is NOT how the government wants them treated is a positive result of this.
    This all comes with actions not token gestures (and it is a token gesture unless they are going to read off the names of every LGBT person they oppressed and pardon them as well- he doesn't represent them all). No LGBT person is going to wake one day hear the news of the pardon and think it's a brand new day if the behavior of the society hasn't changed. And if the behavior of the society has changed there's not really any need for a "pardon" seeing as how actions speak louder than words

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Its a lot more complex then you are seeming to make this out to be.
    Interesting, seeing that I believe that is what you are doing by insisting on a pardon... The only reason my view doesn't seem complex to you is because I kept having to dumb it down in the hopes that you would understand, but I see that was never your intention to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No I do not accept that analogy.
    Whatever. I've put forth a plethora of reasons to not do so. I believe you have put up 0 reasons to do so. We'll just disagree. Good day
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Is a "Royal Pardon" a thing? Is that better than an ordinary pardon?

    I'd demand a Royal Pardon for such a thing. The conviction and sentencing itself was the most criminal thing about the whole affair.
    So, Alan gets a Pardon... what happens to the state for committing such an act. nothing? just the egg on their face for having to grant a pardon? Let the state live with their atrocity... on record
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    Let the state live with their atrocity... on record
    The state's actions remain "on the record", as well as their future acknowledgement that it was wrong. You write as if there's some sort of Stalinist purge happening here to remove all the evidence, when in fact, the exact opposite has happened--those past incorrect actions have been brought again to the forefront.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Who said anything about Glaad? I certainly did not.
    Didn't know GLAAD had nothing to do with LGBT...
    It does, but its not the end all and be all of the LGBT community as you are using it. I can think of three other advocacy organizations (Pflag, Trevor project and HRC) off the top of my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    And I would contend that it is not an empty gesture, as it shows a change in the way the LGBT is perceived, and for many young LGBT or questioning people, the knowledge that this is NOT how the government wants them treated is a positive result of this.
    This all comes with actions not token gestures (and it is a token gesture unless they are going to read off the names of every LGBT person they oppressed and pardon them as well- he doesn't represent them all). No LGBT person is going to wake one day hear the news of the pardon and think it's a brand new day if the behavior of the society hasn't changed. And if the behavior of the society has changed there's not really any need for a "pardon" seeing as how actions speak louder than words
    He is probably one of the highest profile gay men in the last 100 years to have suffered from that law, and he is talked about in just about every modern history class in high school. He IS and example that a young closeted or out lgbt person will look to.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Its a lot more complex then you are seeming to make this out to be.
    Interesting, seeing that I believe that is what you are doing by insisting on a pardon... The only reason my view doesn't seem complex to you is because I kept having to dumb it down in the hopes that you would understand, but I see that was never your intention to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No I do not accept that analogy.
    Whatever. I've put forth a plethora of reasons to not do so. I believe you have put up 0 reasons to do so. We'll just disagree. Good day
    What factual evidence do you have that Turings sentence and suicide will be expunged from history. Please back your assertion with documented examples from modern history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What factual evidence do you have that Turings sentence and suicide will be expunged from history. Please back your assertion with documented examples from modern history.
    Man1: "I have Alan Turing's pardon!"
    Man2: "You should destroy that pardon; all evidence of his criminal conviction must be expunged."

    Man1: "So why did I bother going to all the effort to get a pardon for his criminal conviction?"
    Man2: "What criminal conviction?"
    Man1: "Alan Turing's criminal conviction!"
    Man2: "Who is Alan Turing?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Let the state live with their atrocity... on record
    The state's actions remain "on the record", as well as their future acknowledgement that it was wrong. You write as if there's some sort of Stalinist purge happening here to remove all the evidence, when in fact, the exact opposite has happened--those past incorrect actions have been brought again to the forefront.
    No No, No purge, I just think that a pardon could overshadow what was done to him so that people would no longer want/need to acknowledge it. I.E. They hurt him, they apologized it's over. No need to talk about either anymore. I don't think there should ever be situation where this could be forgotten. If he's never "pardoned" We Will Always be talking about was done to him, because at the very least people will still be arguing over the pardon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    He is probably one of the highest profile gay men in the last 100 years to have suffered from that law, and he is talked about in just about every modern history class in high school. He IS and example that a young closeted or out lgbt person will look to.
    So, only he is allowed the pardon while the other people that this was done to get a big middle finger... He doesn't represent everybody. They stay convicted so should he.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What factual evidence do you have that Turings sentence and suicide will be expunged from history. Please back your assertion with documented examples from modern history.
    What factual evidence do you have that it won't? If I provide "examples" of suffering and injustice that have been forgotten, then they really wouldn't be forgotten now would they? I can only add a blank line for the sufferings that aren't remembered ___________________________ because they have been forgotten.

    500 years from now I still want Alan's suffering at the hands of the state still known. Might not be possible if the state "pardons" him. because no one feels the need to discuss it anymore based on the pardon.

    if he doesn't get pardoned 500 years from now you and I are still going round and round about whether he should be pardoned or not and thus 500 years from now his injustice at the hands of the state is still well known. Why is that so hard to understand?
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    A pardon isn't a case of wiping the slate clean like nothing ever happened.

    A pardon is an admission that they totally f**ked up when they sentenced him in the first place. That admission of up-f**kery, and thus the sentence that warranted the admission in the first place, will forever be on the government's permanent record.

    Recipients of English royal pardons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    A pardon isn't a case of wiping the slate clean like nothing ever happened.

    A pardon is an admission that they totally f**ked up when they sentenced him in the first place. That admission of up-f**kery, and thus the sentence that warranted the admission in the first place, will forever be on the government's permanent record.

    Recipients of English royal pardons
    Recipients of British royal pardons
    This is probably the most concise reason for a pardon put forward by any post in this thread, but the fact still remains that of these 52 people who have been pardoned how many of them aren't remembered for their suffering anymore? I think Alan's particular brand of suffering should never be forgotten and even though there may be an "official record" of the Pardon that doesn't mean anybody will pay attention to either anymore. The pardon could just becomes a page in a dusty book that nobody opens and Alan is remembered for helping to win the war and the atrocity of the state and ultimately what happened to Alan is forgotten inside of a book?

    Let me try one more time to explain it to Paleoichneum...

    How many people remember phone numbers anymore? Nobody, because we have them all written down to be called up when they are needed. If Alan is pardoned there is no need to call up his suffering anymore and is thus forgotten... If you don't write it down but commit t to memory it will always be there and never forgotten.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    How many people remember phone numbers anymore? Nobody, because we have them all written down to be called up when they are needed.
    Yes. Whenever something is written down it is forgotten.
    The bible is a good example: people wrote down details about their religion and now nobody even remembers that there is a bible.
    And think of all the books in the world! But nowadays, no-one remembers what they contain or even who wrote them.
    /sarcasm off

    Seriously - your argument is pretty facile.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If Alan is pardoned there is no need to call up his suffering anymore and is thus forgotten...
    An official pardon has no effect on whether I discuss someone's suffering.
    Will you really stop talking about his (and many other's) unjust prosecution, simply because he was officially pardoned?
    I know it won't stop me - which rather undermines your claim.

    You also claim there is no need to "call up his suffering" if he is pardoned - and yet you object to the pardon because there is a need to "call up his suffering".
    That seems contradictory.
    Either there is a need or not. A pardon does not affect that need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    He is probably one of the highest profile gay men in the last 100 years to have suffered from that law, and he is talked about in just about every modern history class in high school. He IS and example that a young closeted or out lgbt person will look to.
    So, only he is allowed the pardon while the other people that this was done to get a big middle finger... He doesn't represent everybody. They stay convicted so should he.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What factual evidence do you have that Turings sentence and suicide will be expunged from history. Please back your assertion with documented examples from modern history.
    What factual evidence do you have that it won't? If I provide "examples" of suffering and injustice that have been forgotten, then they really wouldn't be forgotten now would they? I can only add a blank line for the sufferings that aren't remembered ___________________________ because they have been forgotten.

    500 years from now I still want Alan's suffering at the hands of the state still known. Might not be possible if the state "pardons" him. because no one feels the need to discuss it anymore based on the pardon.

    if he doesn't get pardoned 500 years from now you and I are still going round and round about whether he should be pardoned or not and thus 500 years from now his injustice at the hands of the state is still well known. Why is that so hard to understand?
    The onus is on you to support your assertion, with data, that your suggestion will come true.

    Phone numbers are not a viable comparison at all as they are something not integral to the history of someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    How many people remember phone numbers anymore? Nobody, because we have them all written down to be called up when they are needed.
    Yes. Whenever something is written down it is forgotten.
    The bible is a good example: people wrote down details about their religion and now nobody even remembers that there is a bible.
    And think of all the books in the world! But nowadays, no-one remembers what they contain or even who wrote them.
    /sarcasm off

    Seriously - your argument is pretty facile.
    So, you remember EVERYTHING in the bible? You remember EVERYTHING that is written down? I think not. I think you are trying to turn my point into a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If Alan is pardoned there is no need to call up his suffering anymore and is thus forgotten...
    An official pardon has no effect on whether I discuss someone's suffering.
    So everybody knows the atrocities that were subjected to anybody who has ever had a pardon?
    You and I may still feel the need to discuss what was done to him after he is pardoned but what happens after we're dead if nobody else does, based on the pardon?

    Will you really stop talking about his (and many other's) unjust prosecution, simply because he was officially pardoned?
    I know it won't stop me - which rather undermines your claim.
    Unfortunately, you and I don't represent the whole of humanity.

    You also claim there is no need to "call up his suffering" if he is pardoned - and yet you object to the pardon because there is a need to "call up his suffering".
    That seems contradictory.
    That's actually not what I said because of the way you left out the context of the statement.

    "Yes, there is no need to call up his suffering *anymore* if he is pardoned because evil has been punished and the state has made a declaration. YaY the state admitted he did nothing wrong we can finally go about our business knowing that wrongs have been righted. Thus, nobody has any reason to discuss what the state did because they have, in a sense, apologized.

    So, Yes, I am against the pardon because we (when I see "we" I mean posterity not actually "me right now") should always know what happened to Alan. It should always be connected with him, not officially written down in some book to be forgotten or lost or called upon when we feel like checking out history. In effect, we shouldn't have to hunt around for what happened to Alan, it should be there, not forgotten to time because we made note of it somewhere.

    Either there is a need or not. A pardon does not affect that need.
    we, obviously disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The onus is on you to support your assertion, with data, that your suggestion will come true.
    So how is this supposed to work? I name a person and then you come back and say "well you remembered him." What are we, 5 years old?

    My inability to provide somebody who has been forgotten is my proof. As I said before, producing a name and a situation only serves to bolster your argument. So, doing so appears to ruin my argument even though there are still people's situations who have been lost to time, which is why I can't name them, which is why they weren't... remembered.


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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    So, you remember EVERYTHING in the bible? You remember EVERYTHING that is written down? I think not.
    Nope. No-one remembers everything about anything.
    But that has nothing to do with your claim that writing things down makes us forget things.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf
    If Alan is pardoned there is no need to call up his suffering anymore and is thus forgotten...
    An official pardon has no effect on whether I discuss someone's suffering.
    So everybody knows the atrocities that were subjected to anybody who has ever had a pardon?
    Nobody knows all the atrocities that were subjected to anyone who has ever been pardoned.
    And nobody knows all the atrocities that were subjected to anyone who has never been pardoned.
    So - what's your point exactly?


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    You and I may still feel the need to discuss what was done to him after he is pardoned but what happens after we're dead if nobody else does, based on the pardon?
    That was not your most successful sentence.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Will you really stop talking about his (and many other's) unjust prosecution, simply because he was officially pardoned?
    I know it won't stop me - which rather undermines your claim.
    Unfortunately, you and I don't represent the whole of humanity.
    Then why are you deciding - on behalf of everyone else - that they will stop talking about him after he is pardoned?


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    You also claim there is no need to "call up his suffering" if he is pardoned - and yet you object to the pardon because there is a need to "call up his suffering".
    That seems contradictory.
    That's actually not what I said because of the way you left out the context of the statement.
    "Yes, there is no need to call up his suffering *anymore* if he is pardoned because evil has been punished and the state has made a declaration. YaY the state admitted he did nothing wrong we can finally go about our business knowing that wrongs have been righted. Thus, nobody has any reason to discuss what the state did because they have, in a sense, apologized.
    You are speaking on behalf of the rest of the world again. Remember: "you and I don't represent the whole of humanity".


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    So, Yes, I am against the pardon because we (when I see "we" I mean posterity not actually "me right now") should always know what happened to Alan. It should always be connected with him, not officially written down in some book to be forgotten or lost or called upon when we feel like checking out history. In effect, we shouldn't have to hunt around for what happened to Alan, it should be there, not forgotten to time because we made note of it somewhere.
    That claim is invalid as you have yet to show that we would forget simply because he was officially pardoned.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Either there is a need or not. A pardon does not affect that need.
    we, obviously disagree.
    Well, I don't forget things simply because a civil servant writes it down in a book.
    Do you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    If it's such a hollow gesture, then let the people who want it just have it. It apparently means something to them. Like Paleo said, we don't celebrate the dead for the sake of the dead. This apparently has some importance to quite a few living people.
    Nail on the head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The onus is on you to support your assertion, with data, that your suggestion will come true.
    So how is this supposed to work? I name a person and then you come back and say "well you remembered him." What are we, 5 years old?

    My inability to provide somebody who has been forgotten is my proof. As I said before, producing a name and a situation only serves to bolster your argument. So, doing so appears to ruin my argument even though there are still people's situations who have been lost to time, which is why I can't name them, which is why they weren't... remembered.


    Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Which is the exact point you are trying to rely on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    So, you remember EVERYTHING in the bible? You remember EVERYTHING that is written down? I think not.
    Nope. No-one remembers everything about anything.
    But that has nothing to do with your claim that writing things down makes us forget things.
    I disagree. actively discussing things keeps us from forgetting, Archiving does not automatically keep us from forgetting. Archives can become lost.
    If we are forever discussing whether to pardon or not we are in effect forever remembering.

    What's the likelihood of us forgetting if we are forever discussing versus it being written down somewhere and no longer a point of discussion?

    His suffering is far more severe to leave it up to possibly becoming a reference point. If he is never pardoned you (not literally you but the side you represent) will always be calling for a pardon and his suffering will always actively be in focus rather than regulated to a foot note in a book.

    You obviously don't agree with me but I find it hard to believe you can't understand the angle I'm coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf
    If Alan is pardoned there is no need to call up his suffering anymore and is thus forgotten...
    An official pardon has no effect on whether I discuss someone's suffering.
    So everybody knows the atrocities that were subjected to anybody who has ever had a pardon?
    Nobody knows all the atrocities that were subjected to anyone who has ever been pardoned.
    And nobody knows all the atrocities that were subjected to anyone who has never been pardoned.
    So - what's your point exactly?
    They do if the decision to pardon or not is constantly a bone of contention. My point, exactly, is what reason do you or anyone else have to think about his treatment anymore if it's apologized for? I can't believe this is so hard for some of you to understand. Although, I suspect that that is probably the point. You understand my point. you obviously do not agree with it but you understand it, but you'd much rather play dumb and try to attribute factors to it that don't exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Will you really stop talking about his (and many other's) unjust prosecution, simply because he was officially pardoned?
    I know it won't stop me - which rather undermines your claim.
    Unfortunately, you and I don't represent the whole of humanity.
    Then why are you deciding - on behalf of everyone else - that they will stop talking about him after he is pardoned?
    I'm not "deciding," I'm suggesting. I'm offering an opinion, which was called for at this thread's creation, that posterity may end up forgetting Alan's suffering because based on the pardon, future generations will no longer feel the need to discuss the injustice because a few words supposedly righted it.

    By not pardoning him *YOU* constantly bitch and moan at the injustice of of no pardon, there by keeping his history of suffering alive and well and in the foreground of his hitsory.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    You also claim there is no need to "call up his suffering" if he is pardoned - and yet you object to the pardon because there is a need to "call up his suffering".
    That seems contradictory.
    That's actually not what I said because of the way you left out the context of the statement.
    "Yes, there is no need to call up his suffering *anymore* if he is pardoned because evil has been punished and the state has made a declaration. YaY the state admitted he did nothing wrong we can finally go about our business knowing that wrongs have been righted. Thus, nobody has any reason to discuss what the state did because they have, in a sense, apologized.
    You are speaking on behalf of the rest of the world again. Remember: "you and I don't represent the whole of humanity".
    No I'm not . again, you are associating things that are not connected with my stance.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    So, Yes, I am against the pardon because we (when I see "we" I mean posterity not actually "me right now") should always know what happened to Alan. It should always be connected with him, not officially written down in some book to be forgotten or lost or called upon when we feel like checking out history. In effect, we shouldn't have to hunt around for what happened to Alan, it should be there, not forgotten to time because we made note of it somewhere.
    That claim is invalid as you have yet to show that we would forget simply because he was officially pardoned.
    I've tried to explain multiple ways for my train of thought. You either don't understand or don't want to understand. This is no longer my problem.

    What it comes down to is I've offered an opinion that you don't agree with.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Either there is a need or not. A pardon does not affect that need.
    we, obviously disagree.
    Well, I don't forget things simply because a civil servant writes it down in a book.
    Do you?
    What about society at large? do they?
    Reply With Quote  
     

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