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Thread: radical islamists

  1. #1 radical islamists 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    It seems that the US and allies are supporting removal of secular arab leaders who are being replaced by radical islamists.

    Is this intended? and then for what reason?
    Or:
    Are the people making life and death and war decisions really clueless?

    I guess what I'm asking is, are they evil? or idiots?


    Last edited by sculptor; November 28th, 2012 at 06:24 PM. Reason: ,
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  3. #2  
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    This is like the Crusades. It could go on for centuries, sorry to say.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    I think we need to stop playing in their back yard.
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  5. #4  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    I almost always assume ignorance over malice.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  6. #5  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    how long and over how many events can ignorance be assumed ?
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  7. #6  
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    It seems that the US and allies are supporting removal of secular arab leaders who are being replaced by radical islamists.

    Is this intended? and then for what reason?


    Of course it's not intended. But the US has trouble accepting sometimes the people will vote for them or recognizing that "will of the people" when it does happen. I think it's beyond most American's imagination that it even could happen.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    curiouser and curiouser

    ......
    reasons for continuing the behaviour when it yields an unwanted consequence?
    or is that really "unwanted by our dept. of state?
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  9. #8  
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    One could look at it as a conspiracy and one can also see it as idiocy. I just hold that the majority of the planet's political leaders are idiots.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  10. #9  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    Thanx Quant
    I feel all better now
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  11. #10  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Glad I helped. I wish we could change the world I do, but the question is does the world want to change?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  12. #11  
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    Yes it is intended, given the situation, or as you put it, "they" are a bit of both, evil(imperialist) and idiots.

    The US typically supports right-wing factions, which come in two reactionary flavors, the right-wing tin pot banana Republic pro-corporate regime(Pinochet) or the right-wing religious fruitcake obscurantist extremists(Saudi Regime), but they usually have to work with what's available. The last thing you want is someone like Mossedeq, that wants to help the people get the benefits of their own resources, when these resources can be plundered by US(or British) corporations.

    Radical Islam has been funded and fostered by the US to destabilize and attack states surrounding the USSR periphery. Its part of the age old divide and conquer by supporting minorities and leveraging religious divide which was in part the bread and butter of British Empire every time it needed to undermine a rival or weaken a target for colonial control. They use whatever tool/leverage is available is the target area. Apparently Women had access to university in Afghanistan before the US supported radical Islam and Osama Ben Laden and the opposition to the Soviet friendly government of Afghanistan. Radical Islamists are viewed as imbecile tools that can be used to attack enemies of US interests, be it in the Balkans, Afghanistan, etc, and that on top of that can be used as an Orwellian narrative framework to push police state policies and budgets, the War on Terrorism being fake fabrication to replace the Red Scare Paranoia and narrative to topple nationalist governments that had nationalist policies to have resources benefit the people and put in place a corporation-rubber-stamping Banana Republic Leader, or secular petro-Euro leader with an islamic tool kissing the Petro-Dollar. Note that the first thing the new islamic-y regime in Libya did was adopt changes to the central bank (and drop any idea of a new currency or alternate banking, not unlike Saddam which happened to turn to the Petro-Euro before being pointed as being part of the the Axis of Evil).

    When all you have is a hammer all problems look like nails, and since the US was already using Radical Islamists as tools to attack rivals and scare the US populations, hence they have some control over such groups, thats what they can use to destabilize a regime that says they will use the Petro-Euro or do this or that.

    (Also note that the public's propaganda fertilized fear of Islam, is not shared to the same extent by people of influence, partially in a similar way to the leaders of 1984 not fearing Goldstein since he was a fake opposition, and partially for the same reasons Seneca said Religion "the common man thinks its true, the wise that its false, the Rulers that it is useful" and why Bush senior singled out Atheist as not being worthy of citizenship, since a professional liar prefers people that believe without questions rather than people who might question the established order/leaders.)
    Last edited by icewendigo; November 29th, 2012 at 01:52 PM.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    It seems that the US and allies are supporting removal of secular arab leaders who are being replaced by radical islamists.

    Is this intended? and then for what reason?
    Or:
    Are the people making life and death and war decisions really clueless?

    I guess what I'm asking is, are they evil? or idiots?

    I think one of things that seems odd is why many people within many of these countries are graviting towards radical islam after, what has usually been the case, being oppressed by leaders that treated them brutally in the first place. "Yes we must replace one nutter with another nutter", I if was living one of these countries I'd want a nice very moderate and liberal leader to help rebuild the country in a spirit of friendship and co-operation with other countries, escpecially those countries who helped freed me in the first place.

    From a western perspective I can only really think of two things that can possibly being going on, firstly that for once the west doesn't want to really be seen to be supporting anyone, they instead want to been seen as really pushing the people of a country to be democratic and choose fairly. Or the west is pushing for more radical figures because somehow feel they might be beholden to us and could at some stage in the future be used to steer some of the radicals away from their hatred of and violence to us in the west.
    Whether in reality either is really a plausable objective, I would prefer probarbly the first, as then we can say that we are actually helping countries because we believe it's the right thing to do and it might help end some the constant accusations of interference based on our interests.

    I just wonder if a policy of honesty might actually work, I mean if our governments were actually honest about there objectives is it really going to harm the outcome?, I don't really think so, also then they could actually tell all what is going on and what they trying to do. We would then have some trust and feel able to support them with confidence.
    As things stand since the Iraq war and I don't know about you guys but I'm not completely trustful about my governments real motives in the middle east.
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  14. #13  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    how long and over how many events can ignorance be assumed ?
    Ignorance can be as vast as the ocean. I've found that many acts, even malicious ones, are often, at their root, driven by ignorance.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  15. #14  
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    For much of the 20th century is was about resources and nothing more. Didn't matter who was in charge, as long as it provides a stable environment for getting what the West needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post

    I guess what I'm asking is, are they evil? or idiots?
    Anyone that does believe that he has the right to run a country based on an absurd, man made "holy script" is mentally retarded, he does not have the capacity to reason. Mental retards, however, can also be evil.

    Extreme Islamists do a lot of harm to humanity for that reason, but in terms of numbers of people killed and maimed, the Christians have the upper hand, they do it with shock and awe, and they do it for the same senseless reason.

    Bush's Shocking Biblical Prophecy Emerges: God Wants to "Erase" Mid-East Enemies "Before a New Age Begins" | Alternet
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I almost always assume ignorance over malice.
    The malicious people of the world must love you.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    how long and over how many events can ignorance be assumed ?
    Ignorance can be as vast as the ocean. I've found that many acts, even malicious ones, are often, at their root, driven by ignorance.
    Reminds me of the Enron documentary "The Smartest Guys in the Room" Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia got a few sharp tacks who know full well what's going on, who it will hurt, and how badly, but who are just so greedy they don' care.And they're surrounded by a bunch of enthusiastic cronies who are like you suggest: too ignorant to know better. The cronies are a warm protective blanket the real culprits may wrap themselves in when/if it all comes apart.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I almost always assume ignorance over malice.
    The malicious people of the world must love you.
    Only if you're implying that I cannot detect and have high tolerance for malice. I assure you, that isn't true.

    I find that true malicious intent stands out pretty readily. Without knowing all the details, however, it seems insincere to assume wrongful intent over misguidance.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  20. #19  
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    Where do you classify willful ignorance? Some people are just greedy and don't know or care who will be hurt.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  21. #20  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    wild guess du jour

    It is planned to work exactly like it is working.
    And we will work to destroy the secular government of syria, plunging it into a civil war based on religion and ethnicity.

    is the goal to surround israel with radical islamist governments?

    who in hell is in charge?
    what are they playing at?
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  22. #21  
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    Maybe Israel's leadership likes playing it's people against their neighbors. If your goal is totalitarian rule, you need your citizens to be in a struggle they can't afford to put on hold. We needn't assume that just because a person is a Jew that they automatically care about all other Jews. Maybe some Jewish people conspire against the other Jewish people (just like some Americans may conspire against other Americans, or some Italians may conspire against other Italians......etc)
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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