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Thread: as/re anti islam movie?

  1. #1 as/re anti islam movie? 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    as/re anti islam movie?
    What in hell are they talking(fighting and killing) about?


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    Sam Bacile - YouTube

    I don't know what to say about either the video or the reaction. Simply dumbfounded by the sheer idiocy of the whole situation.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    Jeez
    what a boring poorly made movie
    (wild guess du jour) the film budget was $13.48(which included a bag of ditch weed reefer)
    Is the whole fucking world totally insane?
    Or do those guys just get the media attention?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Jeez
    what a boring poorly made movie
    (wild guess du jour) the film budget was $13.48(which included a bag of ditch weed reefer)
    Is the whole fucking world totally insane?
    Or do those guys just get the media attention?
    From what I heard, not accounting for accuracy, he raised several million dollars and spent 3 months filming.

    I haven't actually watched it, nor do I intend to. It's just a bold example of a pervasive human ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Jeez
    what a boring poorly made movie
    (wild guess du jour) the film budget was $13.48(which included a bag of ditch weed reefer)
    Is the whole fucking world totally insane?
    Or do those guys just get the media attention?
    Yes Sculptor the world is gone mad. Sadly it will get worst before it can get better, a price to pay, things fall apart.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    as/re anti islam movie?
    What in hell are they talking(fighting and killing) about?
    I suspect they are fighting and killing for the same reasons that most do.. Power and control..

    The film is kind of funny. Reminds me of all the funny films and skits about other religions and religious figures. It is a good thing the Catholics do not try to kill everyone and anyone every time hollywood does a scene about the pope.

    Anyone seen "Year One"? Are jack black and the rest of those folks foolish hate mongering bigots? Just trying to clarify and understand who it is we are allowed to talk about or make fun of.

    The film does not bother me and frankly, I think we need more films or parts in films making fun of islam, muslims and muhammad.
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    It is a good thing the Catholics do not try to kill everyone and anyone every time hollywood does a scene about the pope.
    I agree, but there's a big difference between the Pope and Mohammad. A much better comparison would be anti-Jesus films, such as the "Temptation of Christ," which brought wide spread, but relatively peaceful, protest.
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    Last edited by Ascended; September 16th, 2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason: removed at my request
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    So, are we going to blame ourselves now? It's our fault because a few of us made fun of Muhammad (and we didn't stop them by force from doing so), and that "inflamed Muslim hostilities", and so a few of them got together killed some ambassadors (and they didn't stop them by force from doing so)?

    Who really ought to be stopping their own people by force from doing what?
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    Some people wander about with a chip on their shoulders, just looking for an opportunity to take offense and act pissed off.
    I have lived through silliness like that with black power, womens lib, etc............long ago a friend of a friend accused me of being anti-semitic, and I said that i wasn't really anti-semitic, and it was just him that I didn't like.

    Some battles ain't worth fighting
    Like argueing with my wife during a younger day when the red flag of an open box of tampons was on the back of the toilet
    pointless. I would never win, and any pursuit was just gonna be painful.

    Ignore the silly bastards.
    Why in hell we stay involved there is beyond my understanding
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    We should mock Islam until it acts against us on a more official level. If they're angry enough, they won't be able to restrain themselves to just using fringe groups. They'd have to move up the chain into mainstream territory about it, and then we'd find ourselves in a political position where we are allowed to formally attack the mainstream.

    If we're going to do it, we should act now, before they get nukes. Islam needs to learn humility, to stop feeling entitled to violently attack everyone around it. (Only truly strong nations are entitled to do that, and we have to yield to international diplomacy when we do so. ie. we are subject to checks and balances.)

    It's worth fighting if we can win. If every time they take up arms, they're beaten back and humiliated, then sooner or later they'll probably do like other groups that have been in the same situation and resort to pacifism.
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    Last edited by Ascended; September 16th, 2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: removed at my request
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    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” -Seneca

    Who benefits?

    Why did the same people in the US administration that saw Islam as a way to surround the USSR with trouble across the board also funded the most radical islamic schools?
    Who replaced the relatively secular Afghan gov which allowed women to go ti university with the precursor of the Taliban?
    Who replaced Saddam a secular guy that was relatively nationalist?
    Who replaced Gadafi(relatively nationalist, independant sovereign fund, etc) ended having Libya (or Lybia?) under more muslim rule(and who made banking laws made first to boot)?
    Look at who open the floogates in europe to muslims immigrants.

    It seams to me that some groups/industries/companies and a particular (war by deception) country, are happy like little girls, each time muslims can be shown as deserving of being invaded, bombed and industrially degraded.

    And, with a tiny ounce of lucidity, you ought to wonder, why SOME Muslim countries are portrayed as the bad guys, while others just as bad or Worst, but on the right side, are utterly off the media Bandwagon radar (as long as they remain subservient).

    hum, yeah, those Muslims, arent they bad. Sure 10,000 americans were murdered by other americans last year, but that doesnt count, its those 4 you want to focus on, you need to squeeze all the warmongering octane you can out of those. (and dont forget to forget about the USS Liberty, its not like americans working for the US can be killed by the US/Israel for the purpose of pushing a geopolitical agenda, naah, had they been killed without witness, its not like the arabs would have been the scapegoat of that one, nope, no sir-ee, that sort of thing cant exist)
    Last edited by icewendigo; September 14th, 2012 at 03:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The people who made that film must take some responsibility. We live in a world of different views and opinions that we should be respectful of, not set out to offend the maximum number of people in the worst possible way.

    Right now the US claims the right to extradite people who they feel commit crimes against America, even if those crimes are committed in other countries such as computer hacking. If middle eastern countries adopt this policy and decide that insulting islam is a crime people like these film makers could find themselves in trouble.

    I can just imagine them being hauled off to the middle east to explain their actions in court, now that might make people think twice before do anything else stupid like making this video.
    If countries in the middle east had such a law, just about every american would line up to insult and/or offend them.

    We Americans, as a whole, love to insult and offend dictators, kings, nations and religions with our words, arts and crafts.. In fact, we love to insult and offend each other... It is one of our most treasured traditions and rights.
    Last edited by gonzales56; September 15th, 2012 at 04:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The people who made that film must take some responsibility. We live in a world of different views and opinions that we should be respectful of, not set out to offend the maximum number of people in the worst possible way.

    Right now the US claims the right to extradite people who they feel commit crimes against America, even if those crimes are committed in other countries such as computer hacking. If middle eastern countries adopt this policy and decide that insulting islam is a crime people like these film makers could find themselves in trouble.

    I can just imagine them being hauled off to the middle east to explain their actions in court, now that might make people think twice before do anything else stupid like making this video.
    If countries in the middle east had such a law, just about every american would line up to insult and/or offend them.

    We Americans, as a whole, love to insult and offend dictators, kings, nations and religions with our words, arts and crafts.. In fact, we love to insult and offend each other... It is one of our most treasured traditions and rights.
    To be realistic its not just about Americans, it might be depending on how we want to look at it. I would like to look at it from the angle of planet earth and the mother father concept.


    First I would think that it is imperative to know our selves and how we function on a collective level on the serface of the planet. if we cannot comprehend the DNA of our selves how are we to comprehend the DNA of the planet.? People are the first object, then comes subject, everything moves around people they are the center point of their gravity. The trees are the center point of their gravity, each to its own. There is a part of us that is connected to the earth and to each other and in some way we have severed this connection with science a toll that is supposed to serve us, has taken over itself.

    Listen there are laws that govern earth that was once common and have now become esoteric laws exposed only to a few, and they in tern must keep the secrets in order to not cause more distortion from lack of understanding.

    The other side of the equation is that we have not recognised the evolution of concepts and ideas coming from our ancestors. I am aware a lot of people do not understand the idea of the anestors who walked the face of the earth and the information they left behind for us to follow.

    The question I ask myself all the time is, where has religion shown us any way to solve the deterioration of the legasy from our fore mothers and fathers.? We have killed each other for centuries and we have learnt it well, we can now achieve that with great effeciency and can kill more in the name of greed and profit. All of this we are experiencing has nothing to do with religion but a cosmos desease caught by earth that resembles a cosmic cold and appear in the form of humans. It is like a virus that attacks the immune system very much like the one we know called AIDS created by man. This disease affects the crossing point of the brain and as damaged the border section where vital finer matter information is transported and in other ways created. Science has not yet developed the tool to identify this problem and is doing everything to keep some of this information as a tool to control the masses.


    Racism, tribalism, relgion, and all the others are tools in the quest for power to rule the world. The question is after the world is concoured then what? What if we smash up the world, who is going to repair or live on it? We are caught in our own trap, only we can save us now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We should mock Islam until it acts against us on a more official level. If they're angry enough, they won't be able to restrain themselves to just using fringe groups. They'd have to move up the chain into mainstream territory about it, and then we'd find ourselves in a political position where we are allowed to formally attack the mainstream.

    If we're going to do it, we should act now, before they get nukes. Islam needs to learn humility, to stop feeling entitled to violently attack everyone around it. (Only truly strong nations are entitled to do that, and we have to yield to international diplomacy when we do so. ie. we are subject to checks and balances.)

    It's worth fighting if we can win. If every time they take up arms, they're beaten back and humiliated, then sooner or later they'll probably do like other groups that have been in the same situation and resort to pacifism.
    It seems you have caught the same disease the Muslims have caught, maybe you should change sides the grass is usually preseved as greener on the other side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some people wander about with a chip on their shoulders, just looking for an opportunity to take offense and act pissed off.
    I have lived through silliness like that with black power, womens lib, etc............long ago a friend of a friend accused me of being anti-semitic, and I said that i wasn't really anti-semitic, and it was just him that I didn't like.

    Some battles ain't worth fighting
    Like argueing with my wife during a younger day when the red flag of an open box of tampons was on the back of the toilet
    pointless. I would never win, and any pursuit was just gonna be painful.

    Ignore the silly bastards.
    Why in hell we stay involved there is beyond my understanding
    Scultor, there is always a reason, its you and me who can't see them. I am religion, I do not need to defend it. I am everthing and I dont have to defend it. I do not worship any specific God no need to. There is a common thread that ties us together but it remains elusive and there is a reason for that. We need a new modell for future evolution, or a new modell of the universe which ever comes first.


    I hope I will not anger some of the specific religous oriented people out there, but I think when one does not take responciblity for one self one needs a crotch like religion to continue the trip of life and death.
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    To all Postes this Thread. My heart is indeed heavy when I revue the current upset between the Islamic World and Western concepts. It dosen't help that the religious Doctrines have been a source of conflict now since before the Crusades. The westwern World has the freedom of choice between several Faiths. Our Human Rights allow us to critisize the Dogma associated with these Faiths. Personally, though Baptised Church of England when a baby, and freely gave my version of early Christian Faith as a Sunday School Teacher on a help out basis, it never caught on with me. So Jesus of the Christain Bible is a good friend of mine, and tried hard for his people to come to a better understanding of Life. But it ends there for me. However, we are dealing with a different kettle of fish when we come to the more radical Islamic Faith. Live and let live I say. But if you try and impose your faith down my neck at the point of a bayonet, or try to steathily take over my way of life, or steal my Country, or try to change the way my Society is ruled or Governed, then I will fight you until the Death. Put on my explosive jacket and I shall come among those who would bind me in chains and make me less than human. If it means a struggle to the Death, then now is the time. Not tomorrow. Tomorrow will be too late. We will be able to save nothing tomorrow. westwind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    To all Postes this Thread. My heart is indeed heavy when I revue the current upset between the Islamic World and Western concepts. It dosen't help that the religious Doctrines have been a source of conflict now since before the Crusades. The westwern World has the freedom of choice between several Faiths. Our Human Rights allow us to critisize the Dogma associated with these Faiths. Personally, though Baptised Church of England when a baby, and freely gave my version of early Christian Faith as a Sunday School Teacher on a help out basis, it never caught on with me. So Jesus of the Christain Bible is a good friend of mine, and tried hard for his people to come to a better understanding of Life. But it ends there for me. However, we are dealing with a different kettle of fish when we come to the more radical Islamic Faith. Live and let live I say. But if you try and impose your faith down my neck at the point of a bayonet, or try to steathily take over my way of life, or steal my Country, or try to change the way my Society is ruled or Governed, then I will fight you until the Death. Put on my explosive jacket and I shall come among those who would bind me in chains and make me less than human. If it means a struggle to the Death, then now is the time. Not tomorrow. Tomorrow will be too late. We will be able to save nothing tomorrow. westwind.
    Passion is showing here, but that is not necessarily going to bring change. I think a good place to start is to try and change ones self. Ego is not evrything, we humans like to think if we take a step backwards we are going to die. Truth is we are not going to die if we do not kill ourselves. I do not think that religion is the answer, you have to know that politics is also religion, its not only about Christians and Muslims.


    Quetion to you is, can you change yourself and bring back sanity to the planet?
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    Last edited by Ascended; September 16th, 2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: removed at my request
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    To all Postes this Thread. My heart is indeed heavy when I revue the current upset between the Islamic World and Western concepts. It dosen't help that the religious Doctrines have been a source of conflict now since before the Crusades. The westwern World has the freedom of choice between several Faiths. Our Human Rights allow us to critisize the Dogma associated with these Faiths.
    Hey Westy, I think it saddens us all the current troubles and you are quite right with the above quote, we are lucky with the freedoms and tollerance we have in our respective parts of the world. We should make the most of this and accept for it is. To start making videos, cartoon's or even comments about religions or religious figures in less tollerant parts of the world though is like sticking a hand in a lions mouth and expecting not to bite.

    Unfortunately though in this particular instance these film makers are sat safely within the protection of a tollerant part of the world that defends it's citizens, whilst the people whose job it is to defend these citizens are on the frontline having to take the brunt of the backlash against such arrogant stupidity, it's their families who are left to worry and yet they are not culpable and haven't offended anybody.
    To be fair and a slightly objective your neck of the woods is quite intollerant of certain things that the other cultures are very tollerant off, the buck goes around. I think most of you should stop thinking that the other side is worst. No side is better they are both sick and intollerant.
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  23. #22  
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    In the days of feudalism
    when the peasants grew restless
    the local lord would attack his neighbor's peasants
    the neighbor would respond by attacking the local lord's peasants
    who would all run to the local lord for protection and willingly give up more tax revenues and freedoms

    the more things change
    the more they remain the same
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The people who made that film must take some responsibility. We live in a world of different views and opinions that we should be respectful of, not set out to offend the maximum number of people in the worst possible way.

    Right now the US claims the right to extradite people who they feel commit crimes against America, even if those crimes are committed in other countries such as computer hacking. If middle eastern countries adopt this policy and decide that insulting islam is a crime people like these film makers could find themselves in trouble.

    I can just imagine them being hauled off to the middle east to explain their actions in court, now that might make people think twice before do anything else stupid like making this video.
    Which set of rights makes more sense?

    1) - The right to say whatever you want, even when you know it will light off a powder keg, and the angry people who make up that powder keg will run amok and kill people.

    2) - The right to be a powder keg.

    Do you really want to live in a world where every little gesture you make, word you say, or look you give someone could turn out to be a crime, and you go to jail because some other guy got mad, or was offended and maybe he commits murder, but now you have to be punished because it's not his fault. You just made him so mad he couldn't stop himself?

    Does veiling that kind of idiocy in religion make it ok? If some guy's god says he has to commit murder every time you slip up and offend him, is he now entitled to get away with it? Maybe we should invent a religion that requires us to go rob banks every time we're offended. It would be slightly less violent, and a great deal more profitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We should mock Islam until it acts against us on a more official level. If they're angry enough, they won't be able to restrain themselves to just using fringe groups. They'd have to move up the chain into mainstream territory about it, and then we'd find ourselves in a political position where we are allowed to formally attack the mainstream.

    If we're going to do it, we should act now, before they get nukes. Islam needs to learn humility, to stop feeling entitled to violently attack everyone around it. (Only truly strong nations are entitled to do that, and we have to yield to international diplomacy when we do so. ie. we are subject to checks and balances.)

    It's worth fighting if we can win. If every time they take up arms, they're beaten back and humiliated, then sooner or later they'll probably do like other groups that have been in the same situation and resort to pacifism.
    It seems you have caught the same disease the Muslims have caught, maybe you should change sides the grass is usually preseved as greener on the other side.
    The freedom of speech is very valuable to me. I grew up with a slight bit of autism, minor case of Asperger's syndrome, and I already do live my life somewhat terrified I'll make some kind of social mistake and get myself into a lot of trouble with someone. Growing up I had teachers and friends alike who'd get offended for reasons I simply couldn't understand and act out against me.

    The freedom of speech is my guarantee that, however people may feel about the things I do or say, they won't actually harm me.

    If Muslims want to take that away from me, then I find myself in a permanent state of war with them. It can only be resolved if either:

    A) - They change their minds and decide that I can keep this right which I depend on so much.

    or

    B) - Every last one of them is dead.

    I prefer A, but I'll accept B. You don't tell a person that you're going to take their lifeline away and then expect that they'll do anything but want to kill you. Hopefully it will only require a small number of deaths to get them to choose A.
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    from what I've read on the subject, I've formed the opinion that the jackass responsible for making the film is in all likelyhood a sociopath, if not a psychopath.
    as a society, we tend to claim that we tolerate the mentally ill,
    but
    in point of fact, they are a disproportionately large part of our prison population, as are the retarded, and poor.
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    If I'm not mistaken, sociopathy an psychopathy are considered to be personality disorders, not insanity. There's no real cure for either one, nor any kind of meds. You wouldn't put such a person in a mental institution even if we were still funding ours.

    Anyway, I largely agree with the points made in the film, even if their presentation was poor, and they overplayed their hand quite a bit. I seriously believe that Islam's popularity stemmed largely from its doctrine that the property, women, and etc of unbelievers was due as spoils to whoever fought for Islam. It appealed to the most base, wolf-like instincts of the people of that generation, and gave them a tool to pursue those instincts. In addition to legitimizing them. (Much like how the Crusades legitimized base behavior in Europe's knights.)

    Of course, it also offered laws. Any source of law, no matter where it comes from, helps people to get along. With such a huge warrior class, the law was easy to enforce, and the warriors mostly extorted foreigners in order to make their living, which kept their attention off the locals. So the local non-warrior class benefits because the warrior class isn't extorting them as much. It's obvious why they'd be in favor of it, and think it's so wonderful.

    The only people it's not wonderful for are those hapless non-believers. And if Islam ever runs out of non-believers for its warriors to extort and/or rob, one of two things will have to happen.

    1) - The warrior class will turn on the locals.

    2) - The warrior class will decide that some of the locals aren't "Islamic enough".

    It's no wonder that people in places like Egypt live in such terror of being seen as "un-Islamic" by their peers. Also no wonder women took to wearing those headdresses after the 6-days war. The warriors of Islam suddenly realized they couldn't win a fight against the infidels, and chose to support themselves by option #2. Extorting anyone who wasn't "Islamic enough".

    Terrorism's popularity probably comes from the hope that the warriors will decide to join the terrorists and refocus their efforts back on the infidels and leave the local population alone again.
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    Of course, it also offered laws. Any source of law, no matter where it comes from, helps people to get along


    Yes, that is an incredibly strong reason--even the extremist Taliban were welcome with open arms in much of Afghan (despite American propaganda that disputes that bit of factual history) because they were better than living under the lawless thugs equipped with salvaged Soviet or American provided equipment. Also, in Islam's case many of those laws were quite revolutionary at their time--women with a right to be a witness, women with rights to property, the equal standing of men and women in the eyes of Allah during the Hajj (much more rights than the Bible and today translates into women leadership more represented in some Islamic nations than in the US), strong lessons to take care of the environment to preserve the obvious sensitivity of their desert environment, to take care of the poor, and a clear and unambiguous way to devote and surrender's one's life to god that's almost unparalleled. Also, I've been told, even by Christian friends who learned Arabic that the original prose (I never got past numbers and street signs...lol), available to many in the Arab world are amazingly poetic and powerful--something that even the best translations can't mimic, but a non-Arabic listener can sense watching a crowd stirred and swept into balling open tear of joy or sadness with a musical recitation (like Baptist x 10!).

    --
    But lets not make the mistake of thinking most Islam are anything like the mobs, or the violence was even a product of the mobs, rather than an extreme element taking advantage of the chaos to do Americans harm.
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    kojax, it always raised a concern with me when, after taking an interest in the habitate of Humans in the Time Scale of our known existance, one thing that always became apparent, no matter where in the World I was looking at, no matter the grouping--Family or Tribal -or Early Farming Communities-- The Ditch, the Pallistrade, the fortified hilltop, the Redought, the castle, the Walls, the Woods, the Rivers---anywhere where one could escape to in the event of an attack. Wild Animals?? No. Try again. Other groups of Huminoids? Spot on.!!!! There is no peace, the Bastards will not leave us alone to live in peace.
    OK. Well it might very well be the now that we have to settle this problem once and for all. Theres no Quality of Life for all Citizens unless we know beyond doubt that we are safe in our beds. The problem we are about to experience world wide from this time on is slowly growing its tenticles and infilterating other stable communities biding the time to come when Allah will decree that the blood of all infidels must create new rivers to the sea. You may wonder if old westwind has lost his nerve in his old age. He has grown fearful. He sees shadows where there are none. Would it be true. I will pass unnoticed shortly, as all men must, but my dying thoughts will be---when, oh when can mankind live in harmony in an economy of love?

    I hope the Western Midnight Candles burn brightly until a decision is made of how best to secure the furure of Mankind.( I meant future, strange that fraudian slip ). Perhaps we are not delivering our message strongly enough. Perhaps our message is making no impact. Would that be because the indoctrination of those who would destroy us have been foretold, that the infidels will struggle to resist but it is destined the victory will be with the Terrorist(s), the warriors of Allah.?

    So we are not hitting hard enough. Following predictable, foretold patterns, and it will only be a matter of time before the will of the West( Infidels ), is broken.

    So, given another5/10/15 years--as Economies and Trading patterns change, as balance of Power Cenntres Change, as Alliances are subtley destroyed or modified by the change of Leaders at the top, as perhaps a little thing like corruption of belief-- the loss of will to stand and fight because of moralizing and always wanting to be seen as being rightious and civilized and never to descend to the tatics being used against us, all because of how we perceive ourselves, we will surrender our cultures of freewill and freespeech and turn belly up.

    Is that what you are prepared to accept.? Or shall we now in no uncertain manner deal with this matter by seeing through the simple tactics of infilteration, breeding, disruption, destroying one fence post at a time, slowly working terror into everyday communication, getting the West on the backfoot, looking over our shoulders so to speak--- dealing with it now. By changing our compassionate thinking, by enforcing the norms of our everyday ways of life on those who would spit on our principles and laugh in our face because of our weakness.

    It will take resolve. It will take the rule of enforcement of Civil Law. It will take what we do best, out technology, where we lead at the moment, but not in 20 years time. Our technology will enable us to ferret out those who are spreading poison among their own, indoctrination, smokescreening the benefits of living in a true democracy, blinding and blinkering their own with fear, murdering all the time to show what will happen if they do not comply.

    So let all our resolve centre around our advantage in technology to separate the wolves and tha cannibals and the would be thugs from what well may be a peaceful flock. But start tonight so that the enemy do not have a moment of secure peace. He who would plot against the democratic and free life of my unborn grandchildren should expect no mercy from me. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The people who made that film must take some responsibility.
    So, you are blaming the people who made the video, within their right of free speech, rather than the people who rioted and murdered? That's sickening.
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    I just watched the 15 minute preview of the 2 hour "movie", and was bored less than half way through that. I can see how they are trying to make points, but they are so poorly executed that it just makes me cringe. Not going to bother with the whole "movie". There are plenty other better made documentaries, debates, and interviews on the topic of religion that are much more enlightening.

    Overall content in this "film" - maybe 3%, and that's stretching it. Having said this, the reaction to the film from certain sectors of the Muslim community is equally, if not more ludicrous. If someone made such a film about something I was passionate about I would laugh at it and ignore it as the attempt would be so futile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave this statement, from which it is clear she feels the film makers should take some responsibility for their actions and is clearly unhappy about the film they made:


    “Let me state very clearly, and I hope it is obvious, that the U.S. government had absolutely nothing to do with this video. We absolutely reject its content and message... This video is disgusting and reprehensible. It appears to have a deeply cynical purpose – to denigrate a great religion and to provoke rage.”
    A gutless response by our government.
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    I agree.

    Blaming instead of explaining...

    Missing an opportunity to link the values those same protesters want to with the ability of people to speak freely whether others agree or not....

    Lacking an appeal to moderate Muslims, and those not protesting to demonstrate the peaceful nature of their faith and condemn the violence.

    Not Hillary at her best for sure.
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    Chris do you think is the best statement standing behinds our values?

    Do think it's was wise for the President to blow off his intelligence briefing and jet off to to the American Sodom and Gomorrah (Las Vegas) to give a fund raising speech while our consolate was burning and embasador missing? Or do you perhaps, just maybe, think there might have been more important things to consider regardless of his political party.

    Just saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The people who made that film must take some responsibility.
    So, you are blaming the people who made the video, within their right of free speech, rather than the people who rioted and murdered? That's sickening.
    I would want to say it takes one to do the jig and two to do the tango. Ego can be inflated especialy when one thinks one is better than the rest.
    I for my part know that violence is a part of life, there can be many ways to provoke to violence. I do not subscribe to the theory that words are wind and blows are unkind. I would not like the wind to be too strong especially when it is coming out of the mouth. One cannot take a position that anything can be said without a price to pay. Some time hurricane force winds come out of the mouth it deserves a response. What you have to understand is that pain is being felt in a way that requires a violent response, which means the perpetrator has achieved maximum results for the input. The question is what was the desired outcome of the video.?

    On the other side tolerance and the control of ego is the force to get under control in terms of behavour and religious order. I guess it is ludercris to think that Allah could be in cahoots with people that has no order.
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    People dont appear to realize that the attack was not a random fruit of angry mob, the mob was at best a cover, it appears the attack was performed by a prepared, very informed and organized group of well armed mercenaries/terrorists/death-squad, not by a spur of the moment angry mob. Also note that the various radical Islamic groups in Libya were supported by the US in the west-supported civil war against the relatively independent, secular and nationalist Qaddafi.
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    I do not understand why we helped the british and french overthrow the first Libyan born leader they had in over a century.
    Some days, it seems that our depratment of state works to remove secular leaders to be replaced by radical islamists.
    What in hell are these people playing at?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I do not understand why we helped the british and french overthrow the first Libyan born leader they had in over a century.
    Some days, it seems that our depratment of state works to remove secular leaders to be replaced by radical islamists.
    What in hell are these people playing at?
    The official story was that the "Arab Spring" was just about regular people like you and me, who just wanted to be free and they would establish friendly western style democracies if we would just help them overthrow the ruling dictators.

    Some of us saw the takeover by the Muslim brothehood coming, but we were dismissed as right wing Islamophobes.
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    some of us saw british commandos in country well before the uprising, fomenting rebellion and promising arms and military aid
    some of us saw a power grab by the eastern libyans whose Benghasi had been the old seat of government

    "islam"= submission to god
    which brings us round to the various "god" threads on this site
    which seems to lead us no where, slowly, tediously, redundantly, painfully no-where

    the more I know, the less I know
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    The West had a hundred reasons to remove Gaddafi. Desire to remove someone with such a bloody history wasn't really in question.

    But, like any revolution, you never know what's going to come out of it. It's still nowhere near to certain.

    --
    I also don't really follow the line of thinking linking Gaddafi's removal with the consulate attack. Thus far there seems to be be no link between the new government and the attacks, other than they've been pretty aggressive and cooperative with the US trying to round up who did it.
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    George W. Bush thought that by getting rid of the hated Saddam, the American troops would be hailed as liberators by the Iraqis. This was based on the erroneous notion that the Iraqis were more or less just like us with the same basic wants and desires for freedom and human rights, as we see them. That failed because the culture is fundamentally different. I think we will fail in the same manner in Egypt, Libya, etc.

    I think we also saw the Arab Spring revolutions as more or less inevitable, and we didn't want to be on the losing side. This would put us at odds with the eventual ruling regime. I don't think that strategy worked very well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    (A)... someone with such a bloody history ... .

    (B)I also don't really follow the line of thinking linking Gaddafi's removal with the consulate attack. Thus far there seems to be be no link between the new government and the attacks, other than they've been pretty aggressive and cooperative with the US trying to round up who did it.
    A) is the pot calling the kettle black?
    B) while the right hand of the guy standing in front of you is shaking your hand, his left hand is stabbing you, and then his right hand slaps his left hand as he says"Bad Hand!"
    "That's ok" you say
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    (A)... someone with such a bloody history ... .

    (B)I also don't really follow the line of thinking linking Gaddafi's removal with the consulate attack. Thus far there seems to be be no link between the new government and the attacks, other than they've been pretty aggressive and cooperative with the US trying to round up who did it.
    A) is the pot calling the kettle black?
    Perhaps, but when dealing with American politics one should assume whatever policy is followed is the right one--no matter how obvious the facts dispute that claim. I'm being sarcastic but it's just about impossible to overestimate US hubris.

    B) while the right hand of the guy standing in front of you is shaking your hand, his left hand is stabbing you, and then his right hand slaps his left hand as he says"Bad Hand!"
    No facts linking the two--aka there's no evidence so far of a government left hand. It seems much more likely the new government doesn't have total control--nothing new for any new nation--including early America (or current one--we can't stop all the crazies). Can you imagine Qaddafi allowing FBI teams to enter and conduct an investigation?
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    (wild guess du jour)
    It's the oil exporters who are funding and supporting the violent radicals, so we fear oil interruption from violence, and we're willing to pay more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Of course, it also offered laws. Any source of law, no matter where it comes from, helps people to get along


    Yes, that is an incredibly strong reason--even the extremist Taliban were welcome with open arms in much of Afghan (despite American propaganda that disputes that bit of factual history) because they were better than living under the lawless thugs equipped with salvaged Soviet or American provided equipment.



    I would say they were the same thugs (and probably most of the thugs were absorbed by them). They just had a new victim.

    All Islam does is turn Muslim's violent tendencies outward. It doesn't curtail them. It doesn't even attempt to. Their culture gets inward peace at the cost of outward chaos and violence. ..... Until those thugs start losing the outward war. Then they come back inward again, and start making fellow Muslims live in fear, like a lot of people do in Egypt.

    The golden age of Islam was when the culture's thugs were getting the most plunder from the outside. Once that flow of plunder stops, the whole system immediately breaks down.

    [quote]
    Also, in Islam's case many of those laws were quite revolutionary at their time--women with a right to be a witness, women with rights to property, the equal standing of men and women in the eyes of Allah during the Hajj (much more rights than the Bible and today translates into women leadership more represented in some Islamic nations than in the US), strong lessons to take care of the environment to preserve the obvious sensitivity of their desert environment, to take care of the poor, and a clear and unambiguous way to devote and surrender's one's life to god that's almost unparalleled. Also, I've been told, even by Christian friends who learned Arabic that the original prose (I never got past numbers and street signs...lol), available to many in the Arab world are amazingly poetic and powerful--something that even the best translations can't mimic, but a non-Arabic listener can sense watching a crowd stirred and swept into balling open tear of joy or sadness with a musical recitation (like Baptist x 10!).
    Just like how a mafia don spoils his own children.

    --
    But lets not make the mistake of thinking most Islam are anything like the mobs, or the violence was even a product of the mobs, rather than an extreme element taking advantage of the chaos to do Americans harm.
    Yet, this "extreme element" has always been there. An integral part of the culture. In times past they were Barbary Pirates, or outright holy crusaders marching into foreign continents. The constant influx of slaves and treasure kept the greedier people busy. Why rob the locals and be a criminal if you can rob foreigners and be a hero?

    It's not exactly magic.
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    I would say they were the same thugs (and probably most of the thugs were absorbed by them). They just had a new victim.

    Many were killed, that ones that were absorbed, had to follow strict Islamic rules which in most cases was far more consistent and peaceful than then the ones they had be practicing--Islam is at its heart a great deal about social justice.

    All Islam does is turn Muslim's violent tendencies outward. It doesn't curtail them. It doesn't even attempt to.


    Actually is does, which is why according to the Haddiths the inner struggle is the greater Jihad. I will concede though that in Islam, peace often comes secondary to Justice--a position Americans would find very comfortable except for it reminds them of their own reflection when that mirror is held up.

    --
    But that's get crazy shall we and attribute the actions of desperate people and a small group who attacked and killed 4 Americans as if they represent over a billion.


    Perhaps the film in question has something worthy to reveal, since its a lot more about cunnilingus than killing :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Chris do you think is the best statement standing behinds our values? Do think it's was wise for the President to blow off his intelligence briefing and jet off to to the American Sodom and Gomorrah (Las Vegas) to give a fund raising speech while our consolate was burning and embasador missing? Or do you perhaps, just maybe, think there might have been more important things to consider regardless of his political party. Just saying.

    Apologies for the hissy fit and subsequent removal of my posts.


    The problem that we are all facing is that we are at a point where a decision has to be made. A decision about what we think is or isn't acceptable. There are those who strongly believe in the right to free speech and freedom of expression and feel this should protected at all costs, then there are those who also believe in free speech but feel that caution should be used when exercising this right so as not to knowingly cause harm or offense to others. Then are those who feel that what we can or cannat say should be dictated by Government. There are those that feel the ordinary people should be telling the Government what the limitations on free speech should be.

    We are currently faced with a situation where people's lives are not only in danger but have also been lost. The truth is there are so many varying opinions about just what free speech is or should be. Do people want free speech where we can go up to politicians and call them names without getting arrested? Do people want free speech where we can say things about someone else that arn't true and not get sued? Do people want free speech where we can show whatever we want on television or the internet with absolutely no censorship? Do people want free speech where we can influence others to commit crimes? Do people want free speech where we get others to commit murder? If yes to all of these then, should there be a need for any limits on free speech? If no to some of them then where do we draw the line and how do we agree?

    Some may feel let down by our politicians for not taking a tough enough stance, whilst others may feel that it is better to use reconciliatory language to attemp to diffuse tension and to help save lives. How do we all reach agreement ourselves on the correct course of action? Is it better for all of us to go out do something considered offensive on the basis that they can't kill us all? Or is it better we try to understand what it is that they get so offended by and can then decide for ourselves whether what we want to do or say is really worth it to us to justify to us causing the offense to them. Was free speech about being able to offend others is that what we believe?, is that what we want?, perhaps some may think so, do we all think so? Is this what we should all collectively decide? Are there any other opinions, maybe something more noble that justifies the high regard in which we hold the ideal of free speech, perhaps the idea that it is about the ability to speak for the weak or the poor, to speak for those who don't have a voice, to stand up against oppression to offer comfort and hope to the lonely and frightened, to fight to say no to corruption or inequality. Perhaps some may feel that this was the real right of free speech, perhaps some may feel that is what it was really mean't for.

    To these questions I don't have the answers, but I hope one day all of us together will do.
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    The problem that we are all facing is that we are at a point where a decision has to be made. A decision about what we think is or isn't acceptable.
    I agree. In the US, much of this was hammered out very early in the republic when
    anti-sedition acts were tried and ultimately failed. Later came the concept of the Heckler's veto, where authorities couldn't stop someone from speaking about something for the sole purpose of preventing others from doing something illegal. In both cases, the courts have slipped the criteria a bit--now police might stop a speaker if the violence by others is clearly imminent. My personally belief is speech should be almost entirely open except in cases where there isn't time for rebuttle (such as fire in a theater example). I don't like the overt lies backed by millions of dollars during this political season either, but can't come up with a coherent way to limit it without infringing on people's liberties.

    I also don't think there's a strong relation between the video and the attack or deaths, though the real reasons are obviously obscured by the protest--RPGs aren't something you see people bring to protest, even in the Arab world.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; September 18th, 2012 at 12:18 PM.
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    Of course there are limits on free speech. There are laws against slander and libel, terroristic threats, and so forth. The radical islamist aren't claiming anything in the film is not true. We shouldn't change our laws because of threats from a bunch of crazies in the middle east. Nor should we apologize for standing up for our values.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Chris do you think is the best statement standing behinds our values? Do think it's was wise for the President to blow off his intelligence briefing and jet off to to the American Sodom and Gomorrah (Las Vegas) to give a fund raising speech while our consolate was burning and embasador missing? Or do you perhaps, just maybe, think there might have been more important things to consider regardless of his political party. Just saying.

    Apologies for the hissy fit and subsequent removal of my posts.


    The problem that we are all facing is that we are at a point where a decision has to be made. A decision about what we think is or isn't acceptable. There are those who strongly believe in the right to free speech and freedom of expression and feel this should protected at all costs, then there are those who also believe in free speech but feel that caution should be used when exercising this right so as not to knowingly cause harm or offense to others. Then are those who feel that what we can or cannat say should be dictated by Government. There are those that feel the ordinary people should be telling the Government what the limitations on free speech should be.

    We are currently faced with a situation where people's lives are not only in danger but have also been lost. The truth is there are so many varying opinions about just what free speech is or should be. Do people want free speech where we can go up to politicians and call them names without getting arrested? Do people want free speech where we can say things about someone else that arn't true and not get sued? Do people want free speech where we can show whatever we want on television or the internet with absolutely no censorship? Do people want free speech where we can influence others to commit crimes? Do people want free speech where we get others to commit murder? If yes to all of these then, should there be a need for any limits on free speech? If no to some of them then where do we draw the line and how do we agree?

    Some may feel let down by our politicians for not taking a tough enough stance, whilst others may feel that it is better to use reconciliatory language to attemp to diffuse tension and to help save lives. How do we all reach agreement ourselves on the correct course of action? Is it better for all of us to go out do something considered offensive on the basis that they can't kill us all? Or is it better we try to understand what it is that they get so offended by and can then decide for ourselves whether what we want to do or say is really worth it to us to justify to us causing the offense to them. Was free speech about being able to offend others is that what we believe?, is that what we want?, perhaps some may think so, do we all think so? Is this what we should all collectively decide? Are there any other opinions, maybe something more noble that justifies the high regard in which we hold the ideal of free speech, perhaps the idea that it is about the ability to speak for the weak or the poor, to speak for those who don't have a voice, to stand up against oppression to offer comfort and hope to the lonely and frightened, to fight to say no to corruption or inequality. Perhaps some may feel that this was the real right of free speech, perhaps some may feel that is what it was really mean't for.

    To these questions I don't have the answers, but I hope one day all of us together will do.
    I could not say anything else but Amen to Chris, since I would love to express myself like this, I have no alternative but to say, this is surely food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The West had a hundred reasons to remove Gaddafi. Desire to remove someone with such a bloody history wasn't really in question.

    But, like any revolution, you never know what's going to come out of it. It's still nowhere near to certain.

    --
    I also don't really follow the line of thinking linking Gaddafi's removal with the consulate attack. Thus far there seems to be be no link between the new government and the attacks, other than they've been pretty aggressive and cooperative with the US trying to round up who did it.
    The West had a hundred reasons to remove Gaddafi. Desire to remove someone with such a bloody history wasn't really in question.
    LF, I am sure you realise that you are terrible biased and not really looking closly at what you are saying. I am going to say this as the opposite to your remarks. The East has had a hundred reason the get rid of America. I don't know what you hear my friend but that sounds wrong in my ear.
    What about your history? I am positive it is endowed with both good and bad. To think that the interference of external powers in internal affairs of other nations can fertilise the soil for meaningful germination to take place is inconceivable. Try turning the cituation around, let some one from another nation come in and kill your president and you would have experienced what it is like.


    A lot of the problems stem from thinking that ever one or countries are the same. We are alike and yet different. We cannot allow ourselves to become prisioners of our selves. We are different cultures, color, texture, size, and the list goes on. Take it from there man.
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    You're right I'm biased. I think a dictatorship who takes over by coup, exercises extremism on his own nation, practiced international terrorism, and which never gave his people even an tiniest bit of freedom, organization, or free expression, might possibly be less credible and less deserving of respect, recognition and immunity from meddling than freedom loving peoples who cherish free speech and elect their leaders every four years--call me crazy. There's no room for equivocation between our desire to remove Qadafi and the angst other feel towards the US when it makes mistakes. If that makes me uncompromising about the value of freedom--than so be it--I spent the better part of my adult life willing to put my life on the line for those core principles. Qadafi was a monster pure and simple and I'm glad we and the Europeans were on the right side of history for a change and able to help his people take him out for relatively little cost (about time).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The problem that we are all facing is that we are at a point where a decision has to be made. A decision about what we think is or isn't acceptable.
    I agree. In the US, much of this was hammered out very early in the republic when
    anti-sedition acts were tried and ultimately failed. Later came the concept of the Heckler's veto, where authorities couldn't stop someone from speaking about something for the sole purpose of preventing others from doing something illegal. In both cases, the courts have slipped the criteria a bit--now police might stop a speaker if the violence by others is clearly imminent. My personally belief is speech should be almost entirely open except in cases where there isn't time for rebuttle (such as fire in a theater example). I don't like the overt lies backed by millions of dollars during this political season either, but can't come up with a coherent way to limit it without infringing on people's liberties.


    I would also outlaw fraud and extortion.

    As for political money, we just need to require super pacs to disclose their donor lists (for any donor over X amount.) The right to speak anonymously is ambiguous at best.

    Another option would be for the names of private donors to be hidden from those accepting the donation also. Make it all or nothing. Either

    A) - You want the recipient to know who you are (so you can have influence over what they do), and you want the whole world to know who you are.

    or

    B) - You want nobody anywhere to know who you are. Even the recipient. The recipient will therefore have no reason to do your bidding.

    The problem now is that these super packs are effectively charities for hire. A corporate interest can pay them X amount of money, stating openly that they expect the super pack to do some specific thing with it (just like a normal employee), and if they decide not to do it, then they know the money will stop too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Chris do you think is the best statement standing behinds our values?

    Do think it's was wise for the President to blow off his intelligence briefing and jet off to to the American Sodom and Gomorrah (Las Vegas) to give a fund raising speech while our consolate was burning and embasador missing? Or do you perhaps, just maybe, think there might have been more important things to consider regardless of his political party.

    Just saying.
    Actually yes. I think that is the best thing for him to do. We should "carry on" like the British do in times of catastrophe. It's sending the wrong message if we let terrorists disrupt our routines with their childish tantrums.

    It's better to either do something, or let it go. Making a big fuss about it and then doing nothing makes us look the weakest of any course of action we can take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Actually yes. I think that is the best thing for him to do. We should "carry on" like the British do in times of catastrophe. It's sending the wrong message if we let terrorists disrupt our routines with their childish tantrums.

    It's better to either do something, or let it go. Making a big fuss about it and then doing nothing makes us look the weakest of any course of action we can take.
    Totally true.

    They look at the internet, see a movie made by individuals, about their prophet, ridiculing it. They could laugh, and think, how stupid is this creator, at least i know better. They turn overly violent and start riots, protests, and demonstration against someone who did nothing wrong, simply expressing his satire in a non violent way in the form of a movie.

    This shows the doubt muslim have about their own religion to me. This shows the vollatility they show upon themselves, and now turn outwards to america, because an american created the movie?

    France (some paper), is bringing out a comic, picting muhammed naked, and in several humoristic intended situations. The publisher in turn thought it would be smart to hire extra protection. A dutch comedian i recently visited, depicted EVERYONE, as bad, he started ridiculing jews, which i thought was unappropriately, that hitler did right etc. The room was in shock. And he continued then with ridiculing jesus, and the cross, the church etc. This was much more appropriately, because it took away a part of the discrimination. After this, he ridiculed all other religions, except buddhism and hindi, as he could not think of anything bad for that part. I'd see this as a big step in comedy myself, as id never thought anyone would dare go this far, mainly on the muslim religion.

    I myself don't share any of these ideas. I'm not into telling to muslim what muhammed was. Because i don't know, nobody knows. The koran itself, is a good book, contains about 80% of all stories from the bible, and shows basic knowledge, wisdom and how to use faith itself. Why can't muslim act, like the muslim people from the movie "kingdom of heaven". I was astounded of the chivalry from these muslim warriors. If that's what actually happened, why did they change so much these days?

    I think it's us. We are trying to hard to set an example for them. We are helping them, while they want to be able to help themselves. They feel like they are invaded while we intend to help them, give them food, shelter, medicine. In the ancient times it were the muslim who excelled in astronomy, calculus, mastrony, filosophy. They are losing themselves, changing themselves in the proces, to our shadowpart. This is in no way what they want, and they want the honor they should have. But..... it's not that simple.

    It's a powder keg maybe. But their original culture was always self dependent. They were able to get by for themselves. I think they see great shame in the need to accept help from us. So one half of their population thanks us for the help, while the other half blames us for needing help the first place. They are totally right in this way.

    I see 2 solutions here.

    -- Eiter, we cut them off totally. Leave them to themselves. No extortion, but also no help, and turning a blind eye to all the suffering that will probably occur there.
    -- Or we help them solve the problem.

    To bad the second one can not be completed, as to do this we'll need to conquer their land, and rule it ourselves. And they would never bow to another. We have introduced Democracy as a perfect system of government. We have failed to tell them it's far from perfect, but the easiest, best possible system we could think of (for now).

    We should not EVER show them ANY weakness. I'd say let them kill whomever they want, as long as they are willing to suffer for this. And also, let them know there is no such thing as 72 virgins. On this account they should grow the heck up. A man only has one penis, what would you ever need 72 virgins for? Doing dishes? Like there are dishes in heaven.. Like there is a heaven.. There is only the dream, and you can only dream when your alive.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Islam, the religion of peace ! Islam will not tolerate intolerance of Islam. These crazy MF`s, can riot all they want in a Muslim country as far as I am concerned. What I do find very worrying, is when main stream politicians in the West, appease Islam. We appeased Hitler and look how well that went.
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    Here we go again with the "Islam isn't the religion of peace" nonsense. Christians have done more than their fair share of killing in the name of God. This is a failing of humanity, not of religion. It's all a symptom of the collective ignorance of our race. When it comes down to it, we can be as uncivilized and barbaric as any other species in this planet. Blaming organized religion is just a subset of blaming humanity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    some of us saw british commandos in country well before the uprising, fomenting rebellion and promising arms and military aid
    some of us saw a power grab by the eastern libyans whose Benghasi had been the old seat of government

    "islam"= submission to god
    which brings us round to the various "god" threads on this site
    which seems to lead us no where, slowly, tediously, redundantly, painfully no-where

    the more I know, the less I know
    This concept is not as easy to grasp as you might want it to. Allah must realise by now that the people are no longer listening. Allah and God should show us that they have control. It goes to show if the people do not want to listen no one or God can make them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Here we go again with the "Islam isn't the religion of peace" nonsense. Christians have done more than their fair share of killing in the name of God. This is a failing of humanity, not of religion. It's all a symptom of the collective ignorance of our race. When it comes down to it, we can be as uncivilized and barbaric as any other species in this planet. Blaming organized religion is just a subset of blaming humanity.
    Mostly Hardline Christianity organized as a response to the threat of Muslim invasion. They became the monster so the monster would not kill them. The teutonic invasions of pagan regions of Europe started after, not before, Charles Martel had repelled an invading army of Berbers at the Battle of Tours. Spain had fallen, but he managed to stop them before they could conquer France. His grandson Charlemagne is remembered basically as the king of the "Holy Roman Empire".

    Point is, the Muslims invaded Europe first. . Europe later launched the crusades as an offensive, but that was much later than the initial Berber invasion. Actually way much later. There wouldn't have been a large enough "Christian" army to be able do anything much if they'd started right away. It was only after they'd consolidated control that they had the means to push back.

    I know it's weird to think so now, but there was a time when Islam used to be the big bad bully, and Christianity was the underdog.
    Last edited by kojax; September 19th, 2012 at 01:26 PM.
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    As for violent suppression, I think our goal should be to drive Muslims to pacifism. The successful movements of the modern ere wherein oppressed people have sought and received redress have been pacifist movements like Martin Luther King, or Ghandi. Islam is more likely to get the respect it needs, and the treatment its people deserve if it gives up on war as a means to get there.

    We just need to help them along on that. Every attempt at battle with us must end in humiliation, loss of privileges lands or wealth, and bad memories for the civilian population (because they're the ones who tell the story to future generations. - IE the ones who keep the memory of the warriors after they're done/gone.)

    Then, once they're totally broken, if Islam really is a "religion of peace", a Ghandi figure will emerge from their culture and lead them in a more sensible march to dignity and respect.
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    That sounds like one of the most catastrophic and destructive social engineering plans I've ever heard.

    Have you considered the notion that continued conflict with Islam will only strengthen their resolve and drive more people to the radical groups? How do you fight an enemy willing to kill himself to destroy nothing but a few planes? Without the fear of death, your enemy becomes unstoppable. Violence will not defeat them, it will give them conviction.
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    You talk as if they are unified, and most already don't prefer peace. How many times must it be shown that by comparison Islam's history is no worse than most others and its death rates and number of wars are actually lower than Western nations over the past century.


    . Every attempt at battle with us must end in humiliation, loss of privileges lands or wealth,

    The tiny minority of Muslims who feel angst against the West are specifically because they already have suffered in humiliation, loss of privilege and often wealth, at the hands of colonial power or through international companies supported by more modern Western powers. I doubt they could have been more humiliated than they already have been over the past century.

    To be honest this predominantly American opinion of Islamic peoples, (because I've been around the world and seldom heard it from anyone else) is a byproduct of underestimating the devastating impact of modernity on tribal cultures (not just Muslim ones) and an astounding level ignorance about Islam (and other cultures) given it's nearly a billion strong.

    Our problem is not the billion+ Muslims, most of which are just trying to get by, raise a family and not be screwed with by outsiders who don't know anything about them, but a narrow and extremely small segment of Islamic views who reject internal struggle of human nature (greed, lust, pride etc...basically the same "sins" as the Christians believe) as the greater Jihad, and had misinterpreted their own religious text to carry war to anyone who doesn't adhere to their views.

    Point is, the Muslims invaded Europe first.
    Honestly that's not what he was referring to. Christianity has tremendous blood on it's hands even outside of involvement with the Muslims. It really didn't' calm down until the widespread ideas of secularized governments took hold which separated religious power from military and legal authority. A similar transformation will likely convert the Muslim world in the small number of places where it's still prone to violence.

    And don't' get me wrong...I'm not supporting Islam, not in the least, I find it and most other superstitious beliefs deeply abhorrent and responsible for the deepest held worldviews that cause misery in its adherents--but I also reject the notion that its worth annialating nations and
    people to change it--it's neither effective nor humane. Much better to show by example, contain real threats and support the moderates as unintrusively as possible.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; September 19th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We just need to help them along on that. Every attempt at battle with us must end in humiliation, loss of privileges lands or wealth, and bad memories for the civilian population
    Stripping people of their dignity in an attempt to bend them to your will is a horrifying prospect and I sincerely hope my nation is above such barbaric acts on a large scale. It's bad enough we engage in these kinds of acts on individuals.
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    Uncle Sam is a filthy stinking diseased junky
    crumpled in a gutter awash in his own filth
    threatening, begging, screaming and crying
    for just one more fix of opec oil
    anything for just one more fix
    steal from your neighbors friends and family
    for just one more fix
    anything for just one more fix
    ...........
    Is it any wonder that our pushers treat us with contempt?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    A similar transformation will likely convert the Muslim world in the small number of places where it's still prone to violence.

    Are you serious Lynx ? In the small number of places where it's still prone to violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    A similar transformation will likely convert the Muslim world in the small number of places where it's still prone to violence.

    Are you serious Lynx ? In the small number of places where it's still prone to violence.
    Yes I am completely serious. That's why I keep pounding at the number of wars, murders in Muslim nations, which are actually lower than other nations and if you include the early 20th century dramatically lower. Islam does have a terrorism problem, but that's always been a relatively low % of total violence in any nation. In Arab nations you can't even do a greeting or a departure with anyone else without pronouncing peace for them and their families--the nation of peace is profoundly ingrained in their language and psyche and mostly taken quite seriously.

    Here's a tidy study which covers it in additions to other that's I've put up in other threads, but I encourage you to groom through CIA data for murder rates and see it for yourself. Muslims are by and large not violent peoples--only the few crap holes most Americans think they know something about. (you know the same places most know so much about they couldn't find it on a darn map---not putting you in that group...just saying)
    http://polisci.berkeley.edu/people/f...ishM/Zaman.pdf
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    I'm not sure what the crime rate within a Muslim country has to do with the question at hand. We are more interested in how Muslims treat non-Muslims. As, for example, the amount of freedom to practice other religions in Muslim countries, which is not good.

    The statistic cited which states that Muslims are not more prone to interstate violence is kind of dumb. When there is interstate violence between Muslims and non-Muslims, then both Muslims and non-Muslims are involved. It doesn't show who instigated it.
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    Even by that very narrow measure, how many Muslims are really attacking non-Muslims? It's a problem is only a small number of places being carried out by a very few. And even in that small number of cases, as at least one study shows, the extremist are more likely to focus on other Muslims who are cooperating with the Western "oppressors" than on Christians.
    Study: Muslim extremists not looking for world domination – CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogshttp://csc.asu.edu/wp-content/upload...ran-verses.pdf
    This later point is also why dozens of moderate Muslim intellectuals has been murdered over the past half century--but again it's a couple dozen with a narrowly focused purpose.

    Back to my point though about effect of secularization if it gets combined with Muslims, in a recent Gallop pole, Muslims polled as the most peaceful religious group:

    [img]http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/...2cnawawxka.gif
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    "As, for example, the amount of freedom to practice other religions in Muslim countries, which is not good."

    Thats funny, unless Im mistaken people in Iran can practice other religions(theres a jewish community), while the US Backed Saudi Arabia (autocratic) monarchy does not. Also note that Afghanistan had women going to universities before the US supported (Saudi backed) muslim "extremists" who destroyed ancient statues of great historical value but of the wrong religion. Also note that Iraq, and Libya were relatively more secular before the West/NATO/Anglo-Zionist/Whatever bombed, and that in Iraq Brisith special forces were caught dressed up as arabs (with explosives?) at a time were sectarian terrorism (age old divide to conquer) was being kindled.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not a fan of any religion, least of all islamic, and dont think that the most maladjusted fervant fruit cakes should be allowed to immigrate in any progressive country because they are not integrating nor respecting the values already present (they should only go to jesusland USA ), but for people whose war-addicted government bombed and killed foreigners by the hundreds of thousands and props up extremists left and right for geopolitical reasons, to point the finger at muslims really takes the cake (to the bakery), I give an oscar to the crapy anti-islamic fake-movie for best performance in the population manipulation category.

    cheers

    (The heroic Osama Bin Ladin, a "mujahideen" "freedom fighter", is fighting the russians. The evil Osama Bin Laden, a "musilm" "terrorist" is fighting the US. Breaking news "muslim" "terrorists" just bombed US (military) partol in... in other news "chechen" "freedom fighters" bombed russian installations in... LAter a bomb exploded in Russia, it was a political statement by the Caucasus "Mujahideen". Today the US denounced the despotic government of egypt is defyling human right with pepper spray on crowds of pro-democracy civilans, meanwhile the US praised the royal house in Bahrain for its use of measured majestic main battle tanks of freedom to cleanse a crowd of dangerous agitators and restore harmony and stability to the regal state. In Syria peaceful civilian demonstrators with peace and love signs somehow killed 15 army soldiers, its not like we're supporting a civil war against a country that Israel is holding th ebullseye over, no, its just regular people with flowers holding hands and singing away army platoons and artillery. In other news the "Budist" government of Myanmar is repressing, what? whats that, oh, thats incorrect, that is the "red china sympathizing" government of Myanmar, is... Last week in Ireland "Christian" "terrorists", oops, we meant "Dissident republicans" left a van full of explosives/car bomb... )


    (addendum: For cyber-archaeological historians in the future, I cant say if people in the middle ages really believed in dragons, but in case you are wondering, yes, its true, the people in our time actually believe the news, were not putting you on and its not a 24h comedy act, people really really believe what they are told. If its on TV they think its true and dont put it in perspective to see if its spin or cherry picked or BS. )
    Last edited by icewendigo; September 20th, 2012 at 10:26 AM.
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    Like the rest of my generation I began growing up in the shadow of the cold war, we would often see movies that showed us as the the good guys. We didn't really think of ourselves here in Western Europe as much different than people living America. It was pretty much the us and them mentality, us being NATO and them being the Soviet Union. As you grow up, especially after the fall of Berlin wall, you begin to realise things arn't quite so black and white as they once appeared. The communists weren't really evil and not really so much the bad guys, in most cases they seemed just as frightened by us as we we did by them. Along with these realisations comes some understanding that the expectations we've had since childhood that the West is always the good guys and acting always from the best of motives needs a reality check. No country up group of countries is or could ever be perfect, sometimes the reality is that it is impossible to live up to our expectations, we've built things up so much that we can even feel let down at times. Other times we may feel justified in our belief that we were right all along. But at the times when we feel our freedoms and our way of life is under attack it is to America that we look, it is to this same veiw of America that we've had for decades of our great protector leading a free world against those which would enslave us. This idealistic veiw of America is ingrained in many of us, so sometimes we forget and don't really understand why people in other countries don't see us as the good guys. I say us because things have seemed to change that much in the way we are veiwed by some around the world, how much distinction does a rioter & murder make between an American a Brit or an Australian? Not much, even though slightly culturally different, we all represent the same freedoms, ideals and values that we have in common.

    Right now around the globe there will be similar discussions and debates being played out, as are taking place here, about the rights and wrongs of free speech and freedom of expression and how we reconcile these ideals with those of not offending others. I don't really think there is much need for any discussion of the rights or wrongs of rioting and murder I think every civilised person accepts this is wrong without any need for debate.

    The problems we have are that the people doing the rioting and murdering do not seem to understand that it is wrong. So yes we can consider trying to enforce our will onto them by being as brutal and sadistic as we can in response thus taking such a draconian approach that might force them to stop such muderous reactions to perceived offense. But is that the best approach has it got a good track record of success? Quite frankly I don't think so. Just going back to the second world war we can learn lessons from the brutality applied by the Nazi's, they would often execute 20 civilians when resistance fighters killed a German soldier and it didn't stop the resistance at all, because they believed in their cause. Other such examples are littered throughout history of just how brutality utterly fails when confronted by true believers of any cause.

    Also we are civilised people, do really want to become or even be thought of as brutal monsters because of a policy of extreme retaliation. This would be allowing the behaviour and actions of others to change fundamentally who we are and our way of life forever.

    Wouldn't we be better to start the debate from a postion of understanding?
    How do we do this though when it is so hard to get our heads around the idea that some people can make a rather dull video and next thing we know thousands of people are out rioting and killing? Well I would say we all have buttons that can be pressed and we react, some us may react more strongly than others, but the point is all have things we react to. In this situation we know what the rioters are reacting to, we just don't understand the level they are taking it to.

    What we could do is start to actually try to find some common ground, try to ensure that this doesn't happen again, no more senseless deaths. We could have our politicians sitting down with some of their politicians and religious leaders and try and work out some sensible limits on what does or doesn't cause them offense and assurances that if we in the west agree to pass laws, such as we already have that protect people from racism, that they will do everything in their power to prevent any future rioting. Then everyone will know where the limits to free speech are and that crossing won't result in roiting or murder but would result in prosecution, just like it would if they deliberately set out to make racist, homophobic or anti semitic material.

    Would this be a starting point for discussion that could help bring everyone within the rule of law?
    I would like to think so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "As, for example, the amount of freedom to practice other religions in Muslim countries, which is not good."

    Thats funny, unless Im mistaken people in Iran can practice other religions(theres a jewish community),
    They haven't exterminated all the Jews in Iran, so that is your idea of religious freedom? It is a freaking Islamic republic, for crying out loud. It is ruled by Muslims, by their constitution. Everybody has to study Shia islamic theology in school. I'm sure if a US school would hang a copy of the 10 commandments on the wall, that would cause you extreme anguish. The double standard is stunning. Apostates can be sentenced to death. Read about freedom of religion in Iran here. Freedom of religion in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    while the US Backed Saudi Arabia (autocratic) monarchy does not.
    So the US is forcing Saudi Arabia to repress non-Muslims. Amazing.
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    "The double standard is stunning."
    Indeed it is, since Saudi Arabia, backed, propped and armed by the US is WORST than Iran who get alls the bad press and islamophobic-hysteria, the day Saudi Arabia joins the SCO or stops being a puppet you will have the same wall to wall media circus about how bad Saudi Arabia is. One person dies in a shady color revolution plot ala Operation Ajax in Iran and its shirt-tearing hysteria about how Iran is undemocratic, while tanks being used to repress people in a state without any election is a half column article on page 16 because its a US backed Regime. Saddam was the friendly neighborhood Rumsfeld-hand-shaking kurd-gasing President friend of the US one day, then hes the tyrannical dictator the next. Noriega is a responsible statesman that happens to deal drugs when hes on the CIA payroll, but hes a "Drug Smuggler" that needs to be brought to justice with a shake and bake war-du-jour when he starts talking to Cuba. The Orwellian double standard in the media is beyond stunning, its grotesquely obvious to the point of being burlesque and comical.
    Last edited by icewendigo; September 20th, 2012 at 11:44 AM. Reason: had to insert "Orwellian", its ceremoneal
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    Wouldn't we be better to start the debate from a postion of understanding?
    Your intentions are good, but you might have important information missing about the situation.

    know thousands of people are out rioting and killing?
    Before I go further, I want to point out that rioters didnt just walk to the embassy and pulled out grenade launchers from their falafel pita, the Libyan embassy attack was a commando operation, not a riot. The riot was coincidental (best case scenario) or manipulated as cover(worst case).

    I suggest reading "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler, it dates back to prior WW2, but is nonetheless relevant(propaganda back then was crude but did the job). Then look at propaganda that's well oiled at least since WW1 to manipulate public opinion, specially about wars, typically in fabricating or exaggerating an enemy and demonizing the intended target AND concealing the geopolitical reasons for the upcoming/ongoing/ended war or regime change/destabilization.

    If it was just a question of talking things through, it would be one thing, but there are people that purposely fan the flames and the media distort/frame/lie/lie-by-omission to influence public opinion to support policies (war against target X) it would not support otherwise.
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    An ideologue is someone whose beliefs are never shaken by any possible evidence. Example: The US props up a dictator in the Middle East - It just goes to show the US is the devil. The US overthrows a dictator in the Middle East - It just goes to show the US is the devil. The US embassy is attacked - It just goes to show the US is the devil, they obviously staged the attack.
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  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post

    Wouldn't we be better to start the debate from a postion of understanding?

    .
    Yes, global Islamification is our adversary.
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    "An ideologue is someone whose beliefs are never shaken by any possible evidence. Example: The US props up a dictator in the Middle East - It just goes to show the US is the devil. The US overthrows a dictator in the Middle East - It just goes to show the US is the devil. The US embassy is attacked - It just goes to show the US is the devil, they obviously staged the attack."
    I guess thats me

    1- The US props up a dictator in the Middle East - It just goes to show;
    a) the US and Media are full of Shite when proclaim they are sending altruistic bombs of democracy in Operation Iraqui Liberty(O.I.L.) to liberate Oil rich nation (see 2- below)that are enemies of influencial groups within the empire and whose control benefits groups within the empire
    b) the Media arefrequently tools of imperial policy that both foster war with lies and conceal the real reasons for war
    c) the public is misinformed about the nature of the Empire they are part of and guilible with respect to what is presented by media and asserted by government
    d) the US is immoral, as an Empire, willing to kill, exploite and subjugate, to obtain advantages deamed strategic (power, position, money, energy, etc)
    e) the Us will also instate a dictator able to rubber stamp imperisalist exploitation and keep the people being exploited in place, unless the dictator feels secure enough to turn the table an ask for a beigger piece of the action, in which case...


    2- The US overthrows a dictator in the Middle East - It just goes to show;
    a) They're full of it, the Media is full of it, as show above (and by the fact that other imperial puppet dictators dont even get a tiss)
    b) That there are alternate means to control a client state, such as the age old
    c) Divide and conquer, as well as bribery, but if there are not enough you go back to 1


    3- The US embassy is attacked - It just goes to show
    It show nothing really, but you ought to know
    a) you cant be sure from media spin, if its an inside job, an inside rogue feud, a false flag(israel), a proxy retaliation (Syria), blow back (from supporting terrorists to topple Qaddafi), but what is most evident is that
    b) the least probable of scenario is that the mob just pulled grenade launchers from their pants and that the attack happened because the mob was angry (and provided warmongering fuel for US and Israel to make bombing of muslims more acceptable)


    You will note that though the US is refered to as an Empire, like the Roman Empire and British Empire, it is of a different form that is more subltle and complex, though a part of the population is apparently ignorant of this (and jumps on the warmongering propaganda bandwagon).


    The Empire, is the outcome of historical events(which determine which group wins the Empire lottery), and is nourished by organizational and economical dynamics that date back to Antiquity(which explain why there is a lottery). So if the Empire collapses, the systemic dynamic will imo cause another Empire to rise though it may be different/unrecognizable (the same way that is a Mafia Don gets taken out, all else being equal, another Mafia's boos will take over, unless the environment fertile for the emergence of a Crime Boss is changed, which means a change in the social and economical culture/structure we inherited from the feudal ages; money, hierachy, secrecy.
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    Is this not the same ole, same ole? As I recall the cold war retoric has died down and the new age project is called Islam against western values. There has always been some demon lurking around the corner to take away some God given rights of some one. Freedom of speach has caused thousands of deaths and can even cause war if some phobic mind decides it is thretened.

    Why is America and Europe so involved in other countries problems? waving money around to decoy and install what and whom they like. If you get into bed with a dog you cant expect not to have flees. I would think the best thing to do is get out of the bed and get a bath to get rid of the stenge.
    I think there is a need for soul searching to go on every where with every one.
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  80. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post

    Wouldn't we be better to start the debate from a postion of understanding?

    .
    Yes, global Islamification is our adversary.
    Islam isn't the issue some people would just find something else to be offended by, what is the issue is showing we are tollerant to their veiws and willing to show respect and by doing this just maybe we might get some back. How can they respect us if we don't respect them or their veiws?

    Just for example imagine if they went rioting because someone critisised their style of architecture, that wouldn't have anything to do with islam but would still come down to respect, if they feel we are being distrespectful then we are faced with a choice do we want to try and force them into submission or do we want to find a way in which they believe that we are respectful of their sensabilities whatever they maybe. The choice is ours to make, we are the ones in the position of power it's more really about us and the type of people we wish to be.

    Do we use force or
    Do we use diplomacy?

    This is the choice we must make.
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  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post

    Wouldn't we be better to start the debate from a postion of understanding?

    .
    Yes, global Islamification is our adversary.
    Islam isn't the issue some people would just find something else to be offended by, what is the issue is showing we are tollerant to their veiws and willing to show respect and by doing this just maybe we might get some back. How can they respect us if we don't respect them or their veiws?

    Just for example imagine if they went rioting because someone critisised their style of architecture, that wouldn't have anything to do with islam but would still come down to respect, if they feel we are being distrespectful then we are faced with a choice do we want to try and force them into submission or do we want to find a way in which they believe that we are respectful of their sensabilities whatever they maybe. The choice is ours to make, we are the ones in the position of power it's more really about us and the type of people we wish to be.

    Do we use force or
    Do we use diplomacy?

    This is the choice we must make.
    Okay, Chris. Why do we have to respect their laws but they don't they have to respect our laws? They are using force, and it seems to be working. It's bringing you into compliance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Okay, Chris. Why do we have to respect their laws but they don't they have to respect our laws? They are using force, and it seems to be working. It's bringing you into compliance.
    Harold although we don't see eye to eye on how to get there I'm pretty sure both you and I just both want to live in a world without rioting or killing whatever ever the reason.
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    I won't say it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Harold although we don't see eye to eye on how to get there I'm pretty sure both you and I just both want to live in a world without rioting or killing whatever ever the reason.
    As do we all, my good friend, as do we all.

    They want exactly the same as us.. They want ultimately peace. Even the most warmongerous people want peace eventually. Then why can't it be? Well we are still not on the same level when we speak about peace. When we say peace, we mean peace out there. When they say it, they mean peace out here (in their country).
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    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    For Zwolver and Lynx Fox. On the topic of wanting peace. How do Middle Eastern Countries really define the Peace they want? Is it the same peace we want? And on what conditions would they embrace peace? Have Iraq and Afganistan ever experienced long periods of peace and contentment? Of living happily with their neighbours? There greatest achievements seem to be behind them. Omar Kyam(sic) seems to me to be a touchstone in understanding the mindset of the Arabs in their golden years. Are they now embittered against Nations that brought about the end of their former civilization? Do the people associate with their History with any relevance to their existance today? Was The discovery of the Oil Fields and the exploitation of theit natural rights the the main reason fot the disintergration of their socialability? They cannot bring their glorious past back. So how do you think they might imagine improvement of their Nations in the near Future? The Western Nations are trying the Pacification methods to bring stability.


    What does Trade, other than Oil and Petrolium, mean in these Countries. Is there no developement or resources other than Oil? How come there are Modern Cities in some of the Arab kNations but not in Iraq, Aphafganistan, and Pakistan? The Will of the people must be in a highly disordered state. I s there no collective will that would enable stable Government to begin to move forward?

    Or is there another Aggenda here. Are these nations sacrifical because of the interests of other Nations nearby? Does the World hang by a thread or hinge on the outcome in the Middle East? westwind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    You talk as if they are unified, and most already don't prefer peace. How many times must it be shown that by comparison Islam's history is no worse than most others and its death rates and number of wars are actually lower than Western nations over the past century.
    Alright. Christian extremist bombs an abortion clinic. What happens?

    Islamic fundamentalist group bombs and American embassy. What happens?


    . Every attempt at battle with us must end in humiliation, loss of privileges lands or wealth,

    The tiny minority of Muslims who feel angst against the West are specifically because they already have suffered in humiliation, loss of privilege and often wealth, at the hands of colonial power or through international companies supported by more modern Western powers. I doubt they could have been more humiliated than they already have been over the past century.
    It's about how they try to alleviate it. If you have a headache and then you take an aspirin and the headache gets worse, will you keep trying to take aspirin?

    Right now, Islam still believes it can win a fight with us. We're so riddled with guilt over our past crimes that we just take it when the punch us in the face, or respond with helpless anger and "nation building" (like they must only be attacking us because they're so desperate - so let's help them), which just makes them more bold to do it again. Worst case if they attack us, we'll bomb them a bit and then build them some new roads and schools.


    To be honest this predominantly American opinion of Islamic peoples, (because I've been around the world and seldom heard it from anyone else) is a byproduct of underestimating the devastating impact of modernity on tribal cultures (not just Muslim ones) and an astounding level ignorance about Islam (and other cultures) given it's nearly a billion strong.

    Our problem is not the billion+ Muslims, most of which are just trying to get by, raise a family and not be screwed with by outsiders who don't know anything about them, but a narrow and extremely small segment of Islamic views who reject internal struggle of human nature (greed, lust, pride etc...basically the same "sins" as the Christians believe) as the greater Jihad, and had misinterpreted their own religious text to carry war to anyone who doesn't adhere to their views.
    So what is your answer? Pity? When someone punches you in the face and you buy them lunch because you think they must have had a rough childhood, or maybe you took their job or bullied them when they were younger.... etc.....

    Do you think that will make them want to stop?

    If they punch you in the face, and then you punch back, then that won't end things either. You'll just keep trading punches.

    If they punch you in the face, and then you trip them, and then jump on them and beat them savagely until they're within an inch of their life, then stand up and mockingly invite them to stand and fight you again, pulverizing them every time they move. .... That ends things. It's a matter of depriving them so badly of honor that nothing they could ever do would win it back. Not just causing pain. It's specifically got to be humiliation.



    Point is, the Muslims invaded Europe first.
    Honestly that's not what he was referring to. Christianity has tremendous blood on it's hands even outside of involvement with the Muslims. It really didn't' calm down until the widespread ideas of secularized governments took hold which separated religious power from military and legal authority. A similar transformation will likely convert the Muslim world in the small number of places where it's still prone to violence.


    I'm saying it was much like the Cold War. Christianity started imposing itself on pagan Europe in order to gather a bigger army. No other purpose. The leaders naturally stood to gain by getting as big an empire as they could, but they wouldn't have been able to do what they did if the common soldiers under them didn't think it was necessary to their own survival.

    All of Europe was scared. Who do you think they were scared of really? An imaginary devil? Who could harm them?



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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    You talk as if they are unified, and most already don't prefer peace. How many times must it be shown that by comparison Islam's history is no worse than most others and its death rates and number of wars are actually lower than Western nations over the past century.
    Alright. Christian extremist bombs an abortion clinic. What happens?
    The same thing and worse that's going to happen once the new Libyan government gets hold of the folks who stormed our consulate--they'll be capture and probably killed.

    Islamic fundamentalist group bombs and American embassy. What happens?
    The greatest military power on Earth, repeats its mistakes of the past decade, goes ape shit, attacks people who had nothing to do with the attack, and its actions result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims? Is that our plan?

    Right now, Islam still believes it can win a fight with us.
    Says who? Who is this leader of Islam? Do you mean Bin Laden who carried no religious credentials? Our problems are not with "Islam," they are with groups of Islam. Just curious did you condemn all of Christianity and accuse all of them of being against secularism in a war they believe they can win every time the Army of God kills an abortion doctor? Yes I know that's oversimplified, but I seriously do wonder why you paint the desires of a billion people, the vast majority of which live more peacefully than most Americans, for the actions of a few?

    It's about how they try to alleviate it. If you have a headache and then you take an aspirin and the headache gets worse, will you keep trying to take aspirin?
    In the few places there are problems, most of their efforts are trying to get Western influence out of their nations. It's pretty much the one desire of Bin Laden that made him popular--though we surprised him by going after him instead of following in line with his ideas that Westerners would go after Islam in general, like your conveying you'd want to do. And other than that annoying oil addiction we'd probably do that--but what the hell---the addiction is stronger--it's not their resources after all because we're stronger and one American is worst at least a few hundred of theirs. (A disgusting opinion I chewed out more than a few Soldiers for expressing).
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    The place people grow old is different in different region. For example: imagine a typical kid next neighbor... the whole 20 years that they live they didn't know the world we know. -So imagine the children that grow in a conflict region; it will definitely shape their worldview into becoming more aggresive.

    What I am saying is: don't be ridiculous. Responding with destruction don't make sense at all. You are not making the region stable enough to be peaceful in long term.
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    It seems to be becoming obvious that none of us clearly understands the reasons behind our seemingly endless international military entanglements.

    Do we acknowledge the power of the pro-israel lobby in the US? (an example would be Koch urging us to attack Iran) Is being pro-israeli equal to being anti-muslim?
    Or, is the current stance that which produces anti-american actions to which we will almost invariably react? Are we destined to be eternally reactionary rather than pro-active?
    Why does the US have special operations forces active in 60-75 countries?

    I suspect that the truth is that our presence and activities are producing a constant supply of enemies, any one of which could become the enemy du jour distracting the electorate from domestic policies, much as a magician uses misdirection to distract the eye of the audience?

    And, it ain't just the dollar, and it ain't just the oil.

    whither hence?
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    Again kojax demonstrates well why so many people around the world hate Americans.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  91. #90  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    You talk as if they are unified, and most already don't prefer peace. How many times must it be shown that by comparison Islam's history is no worse than most others and its death rates and number of wars are actually lower than Western nations over the past century.
    Alright. Christian extremist bombs an abortion clinic. What happens?
    The same thing and worse that's going to happen once the new Libyan government gets hold of the folks who stormed our consulate--they'll be capture and probably killed.
    That's attacking individuals, but not the ideal behind them.

    In the case of abortion clinic bombings, the whole ideal is roundly criticized by everyone. It becomes quickly apparent that the actions those individuals committed will not be an "inspiration" to their fellow Christians. Rather they are made to understand that their fellow Christians are ashamed of them (making it appear less probable that Jesus will be welcoming them into heaven after it's over.)


    Islamic fundamentalist group bombs and American embassy. What happens?
    The greatest military power on Earth, repeats its mistakes of the past decade, goes ape shit, attacks people who had nothing to do with the attack, and its actions result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims? Is that our plan?
    No. Because that's helpless rage. It's not targeted right. Getting bombed is painful but not humiliating. We make ourselves just look terribly weak.

    The pain we inflict should be economic in nature. Not taking their lives, but taking their livelihoods and making them live with the shame of being unable to give their children anything.

    Yes I know we've done it to them already by accident. Just wait till we start doing it on purpose.

    Right now, Islam still believes it can win a fight with us.
    Says who? Who is this leader of Islam? Do you mean Bin Laden who carried no religious credentials? Our problems are not with "Islam," they are with groups of Islam. Just curious did you condemn all of Christianity and accuse all of them of being against secularism in a war they believe they can win every time the Army of God kills an abortion doctor? Yes I know that's oversimplified, but I seriously do wonder why you paint the desires of a billion people, the vast majority of which live more peacefully than most Americans, for the actions of a few?
    Because they don't criticize it. They don't turn their heads away in shame, and make the ones doing it feel disowned, abandoned, and un-wanted.

    The power of shame is the greatest power religion has. When I see it un-used, I know something is wrong. Because it is only EVER left unused on purpose, never, ever by accident.

    That's the part of the picture you're missing here. No religion would ever give up its most powerful tool unless it wanted to.

    It's about how they try to alleviate it. If you have a headache and then you take an aspirin and the headache gets worse, will you keep trying to take aspirin?
    In the few places there are problems, most of their efforts are trying to get Western influence out of their nations. It's pretty much the one desire of Bin Laden that made him popular--though we surprised him by going after him instead of following in line with his ideas that Westerners would go after Islam in general, like your conveying you'd want to do. And other than that annoying oil addiction we'd probably do that--but what the hell---the addiction is stronger--it's not their resources after all because we're stronger and one American is worst at least a few hundred of theirs. (A disgusting opinion I chewed out more than a few Soldiers for expressing).
    His goals are fine. His methods are the problem. It's not just that his methods aren't justified. Maybe they are justified, for all I know. However, they will never achieve anything. The blood, death, and gore will stack up higher and higher, .......all for nothing. It's like betting at the craps table in a casino, getting behind, and then betting more and more to try and "win it all back".

    Osama's goals cannot be bought in blood. They have to be bought with another currency.

    A pacifist approach like Ghandi or Martin Luther King's approach would get better results for everyone (especially the Islamic community who needs the changes.)
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    Not taking their lives, but taking their livelihoods and making them live with the shame of being unable to give their children anything.


    Honestly you to spend some time overseas....and see and smell for yourself that many these people already have NOTHING to loose. Their life sucks, in many cases they loose their children for want of basic necessities, jobs are difficult to come by with even cultural things replaced by mass import from overseas. Honestly I've to some of those crap holes and probably would be just as anxious to kill Americans if my people, land and everything I believe in was being stripped from me by wealthy foreigners. You seem to think they have anything to loose that can convince them to change--they don't and attempts to make their condition worse just hardens them--deepening the hatred for those that already don't like us, and makes the neutral ones hate us. The suggestion we hurt people that already have hardly anything economically is laughable and amazingly ignorant. And honestly such tactics almost always deepen religious feelings--making them all the more extreme.

    The Americans should understand that at least a little, because the concept is similar to why poverty is so linked to self destructive actions resulting in one of the largest prison populations--but we've covered that somewhat in the racial intelligence thread that was also so full of false perceptions. But unfortunately too many Americans are too ignorant to understand that punishment isn't the answer--that helping them help themselves with protection and constructive policies are about the only thing that can word.

    Osama's goals cannot be bought in blood.

    You do realize that despite his disappointments with us not going after Islam, as you seem to think the answer is, he did achieve many of his strategic objectives: Our military was kicked out of Saudi Arabia, Iraq is more religious and less Western than under Saddam (or anyone else since about 1920), Afghan is probably going to return to Taliban rule and across the Middle East there is much less tolerance for Western ideas and culture than when he started. Things are going backwards -- at least in part due to Western misunderstandings of their cultures, missed opportunities, dozens of broken promises and almost always putting the price of gas above the quality of life for people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Not taking their lives, but taking their livelihoods and making them live with the shame of being unable to give their children anything.


    Honestly you to spend some time overseas....and see and smell for yourself that many these people already have NOTHING to loose. Their life sucks, in many cases they loose their children for want of basic necessities, jobs are difficult to come by with even cultural things replaced by mass import from overseas. Honestly I've to some of those crap holes and probably would be just as anxious to kill Americans if my people, land and everything I believe in was being stripped from me by wealthy foreigners. You seem to think they have anything to loose that can convince them to change--they don't and attempts to make their condition worse just hardens them--deepening the hatred for those that already don't like us, and makes the neutral ones hate us. The suggestion we hurt people that already have hardly anything economically is laughable and amazingly ignorant. And honestly such tactics almost always deepen religious feelings--making them all the more extreme.


    It seems they still have hope. We can take that away. That's why I think it's such a strong threat if we threaten to take it away on purpose. They've seen what we can do by accident. They know full well that if we wanted to deprive them on purpose, they would have no chance to stop us.

    I'm not trying to be totally heartless. I simply perceive that their situation can improve if we break them all the way down first. They need to reach a point like the Japanese did, where instead of resisting Western Influence, they embrace it, adapt to it, and integrate themselves into it. Then they won't be so poor anymore, at least not for long.

    I don't want to kill off Islam. I want to change it. Japanese nationalism drove them to become the world's best car manufacturers. Islamic nationalism could drive Muslims to build excellent cars as well, if they'd re-direct it. But first, like the Japanese were, they have to be beaten down to the point where they no longer have anything to gain in war.


    The Americans should understand that at least a little, because the concept is similar to why poverty is so linked to self destructive actions resulting in one of the largest prison populations--but we've covered that somewhat in the racial intelligence thread that was also so full of false perceptions. But unfortunately too many Americans are too ignorant to understand that punishment isn't the answer--that helping them help themselves with protection and constructive policies are about the only thing that can word.
    You think constructive policies haven't been tried?

    We have a huge prison population because people aren't scared of prison. It's not such an unpleasant place, unless you're the one getting picked on by the gangs in there (and if you go in as a gangster, then probably you're not.) Malcolm X is more popular than Martin Luther King these days, because people are starting to realize that Martin Luther King's approach won't get them reparations for all the past harms that have happened. It got black people equality, but now a lot of people in that community want to have the pendulum swing the other way. --- It doesn't work like that.

    The white majority feels so bad about the past, we almost want to let black people victimize us back, just to make up for it. What we're failing to realize is that it's a never ending pit. Absolutely no amount of reverse victimization will ever create balance.

    Anyway - you're definitely right that it's the same problem in a different version.

    Osama's goals cannot be bought in blood.
    You do realize that despite his disappointments with us not going after Islam, as you seem to think the answer is, he did achieve many of his strategic objectives: Our military was kicked out of Saudi Arabia, Iraq is more religious and less Western than under Saddam (or anyone else since about 1920), Afghan is probably going to return to Taliban rule and across the Middle East there is much less tolerance for Western ideas and culture than when he started. Things are going backwards -- at least in part due to Western misunderstandings of their cultures, missed opportunities, dozens of broken promises and almost always putting the price of gas above the quality of life for people.
    Things are also going backward the other way. Very few Americans are going to feel sympathy if an American corporation feels like marching its mercenary army into Afghanistan to strip mine all the ore out of its mountains.

    What poor Osama forgot is that we have more guns. We will always win every military confrontation. The further he pushes the divide, the worse his people will be victimized. The more non-secular they get, the easier their homes are to steal from them.

    The US Federal Government might go bankrupt over the war, but that government wasn't his real enemy. The corporations he meant to harm are laughing all the way to the bank right now.
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    How many innocent people have been killed from drone attacks? Don't think I'm having a go at the US here because I'm not, the British it turns out have been supplying targeting intelligence for these drone strikes which means we are equally responsible. Ok I accept they are trying to stop terrorism and kill terrorist leaders, I have no problem with that aspect. What we do have to consider though is the sovereignty of these countries is being violated and it is their innocent civilians that have to pay with their lives as we continuously break their laws at our will.

    The response to this is protests and anger yes, but not on the same scale that we see when their religion is in their minds offended, this is their sensibility the thing to them that they value above all others, this why I think we should try to find a way to compromise and show them we respect their religion.

    We have different sensibilities, we hold for most our liberty and our lives and we are angry that people have been killed and we should be angry human life to us is very precious, but lets not kid our selves we are blameless.

    If we want an end to the killing then we should do it in a peaceful way, no show of force, brutality or violence but peaceful negotiation, co-operation and mutual respect. We should treat them with the same respect as our friends and allies then they might believe we are sincere and we may be able to find peaceful solutions to any future problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    How many innocent people have been killed from drone attacks? Don't think I'm having a go at the US here because I'm not, the British it turns out have been supplying targeting intelligence for these drone strikes which means we are equally responsible. Ok I accept they are trying to stop terrorism and kill terrorist leaders, I have no problem with that aspect. What we do have to consider though is the sovereignty of these countries is being violated and it is their innocent civilians that have to pay with their lives as we continuously break their laws at our will.
    Maybe it should be that country's obligation to stop its own terrorists from attacking us.

    Suppose two armies have been at war, and the generals meet to discuss a truce with their armies gathered waiting outside, but one of the generals' armies is so undisciplined that some of his men decide to shoot one of the soldiers on the other side during the meeting. How much confidence would you have that the treaty signed in that meeting would really be honored? Is that general showing he has the ability and desire to force his men to stand down?

    The reality we're discovering is that a local population has about a bazillion times more ability to weed out terrorists from among its own ranks than we do as a foreign occupying army. In the first place, the local population speaks the same language. Their ability to gather useful intel is a whole world different from ours because they are aware enough of the local culture that they can infiltrate the terrorists. So .... why aren't they doing it?

    The minimum achievement any government must have to be considered self governing is the ability to sign and keep treaties. Wherever else they fail, it's none of our concern because no other failing on their part is a danger to us. If they can't do that, then they should automatically lose the right to govern.

    It's like if you owned a bunch of dogs, say Rottweilers. And you showed you couldn't control them well enough to keep them from attacking local children. I'd say at that point you've lost the right to own dogs. I don't really care if your dogs love you or not. You can't keep them.
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    Chrisgorlitz,

    It's worth noting that Islamic terror and violence is not just directed at the West. It is targeted at almost anything that they have a problem with: List of Islamic terrorist attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The last thing you want to do is give these people, or their beliefs, any respect. They don't deserve any.

    It's also worth noting that Arab media can often be full of anti-Jewish and anti-Christian cartoons (some of it beyond the pale). If they can dish it out, surely they can take it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwirko View Post
    Chrisgorlitz,

    It's worth noting that Islamic terror and violence is not just directed at the West. It is targeted at almost anything that they have a problem with: List of Islamic terrorist attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The last thing you want to do is give these people, or their beliefs, any respect.

    But the problem is that many ordinary caring people that are Muslims can be offended, these people arn't the type of people that go out rioting or killing and all they want to do is live normal lives and bring up there children. If it is to these people we are showing our respect and consideration of their faith then surely the extremists won't have any reasons to go amok killing people and they'll find recruitment much harder.
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    The last thing you want to do is give these people, or their beliefs, any respect.
    I think the crux of this discussion, at least for me, is who is "their?"

    We should show no more disrespect for innocents Muslims living in some of the worse conditions on earth who aren't participants in the terror, than we should for those who sat shoulder to shoulder with Anders Breivik listening to Christian sermons every week. When our net is too large, we add to the problem. Islam, like many religions has a dark side in it's formal doctrine that can be exploited to legitimize the worst actions--and might even be worse than most--but that's still no reason to humiliate its innocent members nor add to the very conditions that allow those extremist interpretations to gain momentum.
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    As my list makes clear: these people need very little justification for going ape. Being offended is the least of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwirko View Post
    As my list makes clear: these people need very little justification for going ape. Being offended is the least of them.
    Of course i agree. But again it's a matter of perspective. Blasphemy, for example, was only completely stricken from US and UK laws in the past few decades. If you're an Arab, it's still very much part of their laws. Right or Wrong, it's quite easy to measures others against your own standards and find other's actions unacceptable.
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    Sure.

    However, I fail to grasp the reasons for taking offence when I think about the level of intolerance and disrespect of other religions that is often on display in some sections of the Arab world. If blasphemy is still part of ones law, then why firebomb Christians at prayer? It's a vile double-standard.
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