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Thread: What happens to immigration in Europe?

  1. #1 What happens to immigration in Europe? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Public surveys shows that overhelming majority of Europeans are
    against sizeable immigration to their countries.
    Europeans overwhelmingly against immigration: Poll | EurActiv
    In the same time ruling parties in European countries principally do not want to reduce
    number of immigrants or newcomers who come in different ways and in some European
    countries (for example United Kingdom) number of immigrants reaches hundreds of thousans
    per year.This leads to constant increase in popularity of ultraright parties.But why just not
    follow mind of population majority and not strongly reduce immigration?Is it democracy after
    all?Or maybe this is organized to allow ultras come to power?..
    The Labour Party, a political party in the UK in power from 1997 - 2010 seemed to believe that all immigrants would vote for them and with more immigrants it would also keep British people out of work and that the then out of work people would also vote for them. So they then deliberately set about ensuring that immigrants were given benefits and incentives to come to the UK. This why the UK immigration has been so high, the current UK government are not in favour of immigration but seem to have absolutely no idea what to do about it.

    BTW, I'm quite in favour of immigration if it gives people the opportunity to improve their lives, I'm not in favour of it for gerrymandering purposes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    This why the UK immigration has been so high, the current UK government are not in favour of immigration but seem to have absolutely no idea what to do about it.
    If majority of population is strongly against of immigration and rulling party too,then what is a problem in actually cutting it?
    It is called " The European Human Rights Act " The nice Mr Blair signed up the UK in 1998 and became law in 2000. If a murderer, rapist or any other unsavoury character turns up in the UK, they can claim asylum by uttering the magic words " my life will be in danger if you send me back to my home country " Equally, if these people turn up and commit murder or rape in the UK, and they have a wife, child, girlfriend or a pet cat here in the UK, they can not be deported as they have a " Right to a family life " You could not make this shit up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    This why the UK immigration has been so high, the current UK government are not in favour of immigration but seem to have absolutely no idea what to do about it.
    If majority of population is strongly against of immigration and rulling party too,then what is a problem in actually cutting it?
    It is called " The European Human Rights Act " The nice Mr Blair signed up the UK in 1998 and became law in 2000. If a murderer, rapist or any other unsavoury character turns up in the UK, they can claim asylum by uttering the magic words " my life will be in danger if you send me back to my home country " Equally, if these people turn up and commit murder or rape in the UK, and they have a wife, child, girlfriend or a pet cat here in the UK, they can not be deported as they have a " Right to a family life " You could not make this shit up.
    I don't think it's right to give the impression that immigrants are criminals. Though you are of course right it's almost impossible to get rid of 'undesirables'. The EU gives most, not all but most, EU citizens the right to come live and work in the UK. This makes it very hard for the government, they have powers to temporarily suspend EU immigration, but this is only designed for specific circumstances and can't be used as a long term solution.
    Last edited by Ascended; June 6th, 2012 at 12:28 PM. Reason: missed a word out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Public surveys shows that overwhelming majority of Europeans are
    against sizeable immigration to their countries..
    Ya, we have the same problem in the US. A major disconnect from the reality that the proportion of elder being taken care of by government and younger people to pay taxes to support them is a continuing trend that's putting incredible pressure on our budgets. We need immigrants as a labor force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post

    I don't think it's right to give the impression that immigrants are criminals. Though you are of course right it's almost impossible to get rid of 'undesirables'. The EU gives most, not all but most, EU citizens the right to come live and work in the UK. This makes it very hard for the government, they have powers to temporarily suspend EU immigration, but this is only designed for specific circumstances and can't be used as a long term solution.
    We have enough home grown murders and rapists here in the UK, without importing anymore. We do not need anymore, and there is nothing wrong with pointing this out.
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    The rulers of our false democracy want cheap labor and wage suppression. Alan Greenspan laid it out in an interview decades ago, and even if he had not it should be pretty obvious by now.


    "We need immigrants as a labor force"


    Isnt anyone out of work in the US? And how about having a few thousand less people working to kill afghan farmers on the other side of the planet and having a few thousand more trained to care for people in their own country instead? Instead of investing billions into technology to remotely kill people with automated systems why not do this for systems that automatically provide basic care services?

    It seams to me theres a gigantic waste of human potential, due to our current economic and social organisation system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    A major disconnect from the reality that the proportion of elder being taken care of by government and younger people to pay taxes to support them is a continuing trend that's putting incredible pressure on our budgets. We need immigrants as a labor force.
    That's right. Population growth is bad - if it's our own population that's growing. It's only good if we are importing illegal immigrants. It's the suicide of the West.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    .But why just not
    follow mind of population majority and not strongly reduce immigration?Is it democracy after
    all?Or maybe this is organized to allow ultras come to power?..
    It's because those immigrants' children will grow up to be voters later on. Democratically elected leaders then have to take into account both the desires of their current constituents and the possible future desires of the constituents they would end up alienating if they make life difficult for those immigrants. Also, since a lot of immigrant groups crank out babies like a wind mill, their future say is stronger, per capita, than the existing population with it's 2 children per family.

    Democracy is on a collision course with population reduction. The two will never fully agree, because reducing the population requires giving heed to the will of the ones who want there to be fewer votes out there. If one party resists the wave of immigration and another party embraces it and manages to keep them flowing in, the one that embraced it will get all those votes later on. If all parties equally resist the wave of immigration, and immigrants don't keep flowing in, then nobody gets those votes. Essentially, the immigrant population has this big bag of goodies to bribe those politicians with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post


    Isnt anyone out of work in the US?
    Of course- but the US had been nearly fully employed for decades until the more recent depression hit two years ago. Immigration plummeted accordingly:
    Net Migration from Mexico Falls to Zero

    --
    It's only good if we are importing illegal immigrants. It's the suicide of the West.
    I don't see how. In the US most of them are Westerners anyhow. Those that aren't assume Western values in a couple generations, just as most of our ancestors did. And I also think we both recognize Europe's has different problems than the US, which from the West side of the Atlantic, looks like far more non-Westerners combined with over-willingness to accept their some things from their native cultures that can directly erode European government, such as their legal systems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Those that aren't assume Western values in a couple generations, just as most of our ancestors did.
    Our ancestors who didn't integrate right away were persecuted mercilessly until they did. Now that persecution is off limits, so we might expect the rate of immigration to be much slower, and possibly less complete.
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    so we might expect the rate of immigration to be much slower, and possibly less complete.
    Immigration is driven by emigration. There are lots of highly desirable places to live in the world, but most people don't just stay in their country of birth, they stay in the same region they were born in. People need a reason to up sticks and move permanently to a new and unfamiliar place.

    The things that speed up emigration/immigration are famine and violence in the first place. Less extreme economic hardship (compared to famine that is) and political/religious oppression or discrimination or uncontrolled, unpredictable violence from any group, not just governments. Of course, what normally happens is that people 'emigrate' to the nearest safe harbour, often a refugee camp in places where such facilities are available. They don't move very far at all. For the most part, when the impetus is economic the move is from rural peasant poverty to marginal edge-of-city slum poverty. But that's just because people often don't know that they won't be better off when they move. They're optimistic.

    Which explains the Africans towards Europe, South American towards North America style of movements. Not very far. And not as much better off as they might have hoped. But the movements within those countries and regions is always much larger than the movements right out of them.

    The way to slow emigration/immigration is to do as much as possible to reduce poverty and violence and to increase racial and religious tolerance and co-existence in the regions where these problems are most serious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Those that aren't assume Western values in a couple generations, just as most of our ancestors did.
    Our ancestors who didn't integrate right away were persecuted mercilessly until they did. Now that persecution is off limits, so we might expect the rate of immigration to be much slower, and possibly less complete.
    That's only true for some, nowhere near the majority, that gets glamorized because it somehow makes Americans feel better somehow. Economic opportunity has been the usual driving force. In the middle east of the dozens of Arabs I know trying to immigrate, it's a combination of wanting good job, and a peaceful place to raise their kids--most are trying to get to Europe because it's simpler and cheaper.
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    Oh dear. .... I meant to say "integration" not "immigration". I don't know how I got the words switched like that. I think with less persecution, we can expect people will be more reluctant to integrate.

    If an immigrant can get all the benefits of the local economy and political stability, without having to sacrifice any of their personal customs or attitudes, clearly they will prefer getting the best of both worlds. The purpose of mercilessly persecuting those who fail to integrate is to make them choose one or the other option (either to forgo the economic benefit by leaving, or forgo their culture.) If their culture is really the cause of most of their problems, then that's a choice they must make. To not make it, or choose both, merely dooms all of us to have to choose the first option (lose our economic and political stability) with them.

    A failed system is more likely to be the result of a bad blueprint than merely bad luck. Of course luck is the only thing you're allowed to blame and still be politically correct...
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    ROFL...np on confusion.

    If an immigrant can get all the benefits of the local economy and political stability, without having to sacrifice any of their personal customs or attitudes, clearly they will prefer getting the best of both worlds.
    Absolutely.

    To some degree the nations that adopt them can allow that. On the other hand there needs to be well demarked lines that cannot be crossed--things like the legal system that their adherence to has to be the cost of admission.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; June 7th, 2012 at 09:29 PM.
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    I think with less persecution, we can expect people will be more reluctant to integrate.
    I find that notion a bit strange. What I observe around the world is that the less violence and more tolerance, the easier it is for people to become part of the large, relaxed, tolerant, peaceful group.

    With more violence and less acceptance, people become more defensive, and more aggressive in maintaining their cultural 'identity'. When people are denied jobs, rented housing, school admission or whatever, they are more likely to fiercely cling to whatever ethnic or cultural identity singled them out for bad treatment in the first place. Their parents are less likely to accept them being involved in friendships, relationships or marriages with people from the dominant culture in such circumstances. Pretty soon you've got yourself an isolated, impoverished, violent ghetto.

    I'd need a much better explanation of the positive outcomes you expect from such an approach. Perhaps a couple of examples where it's worked out well?
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    First off, all this immigration talk has its roots, in people like Adolf Hitler.
    You Westerners think that you all, are the master race, but the fact is, the West stole its inventions from Asia, Arab countries and Africa.
    Your beliefs of the master race are not true, you all should go thank the Asians, Arabs, and Africans you stole your technology from.
    You are not the master race!!!
    (Note: I am German, Sicilian, and Irish)

    We are all the same species, and there is no such thing as race in a scientific classification. But (your) crowd can not understand this.


    Then theres the facist's in America, who speak of tax dollars spent on immigration. But the fact is America spends 500x more money giving the rich and corporations tax cuts and insane wars, than they spend on immigration. Their complaints are not based on economics, but rather racism. America can not even survive without illegal South American immigrants, because they pick ALL our crops and clean our buildings.

    And it seems that there are Europeans who are talking bad about immigration, but once more these racists, do not realize that countries like Germany will soon need lots of immigrants, to take care of them when they are old. To all you European racists "do not bite the hand that feeds you."

    When lots of you European racists are old, you will need these immigrants to feed you, clean your bed, give you a bath, and cook your your food. If there are no immigrants around when you are old, you will be laying in a bed soaked in your own urine. You should be nice to the immigrants who will one day be taking care of you.

    Its sad that all of you are not smart enough, to look for the (cause) of the problems you speak of, instead you cry like a 6 year olds.

    Hopefully one day all of your Adolf Hitler like, hate and insanity, will be in the garbage were it belongs. And you all will look for the cause of the problems you see, rather than attack the (humans) who pick your produce, and will be changing your urine soaked underwear.




    I am sorry if I was rude,
    Chad.

    I had second thoughts about posting this, but I just walked into my room, and saw a picture of a black woman in the news paper.
    I then realized the way the racist Americans, feel about that woman, so I am posting it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post

    I'd need a much better explanation of the positive outcomes you expect from such an approach. Perhaps a couple of examples where it's worked out well?
    If you go back to pre-1924, Ellis Island... etc... A lot of parents of those immigrants wouldn't even let their kids talk their native language in the home. My grandfather on my mother's side was one such child. His parents were fully German, but he never knew the language, only English. There could be two factors in play here, and I'm having a hard time telling which one is more dominant.

    1) - Ellis Island immigrants weren't subject to immigration quotas. Their presence was more or less welcome. You only got rejected if it looked like you were in bad health (ironically) or otherwise wouldn't make a good citizen.

    Ellis Island - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

    2) - The USA was quite fully racist at the time. It was not in any smart immigrant's best interests to go flaunting their culture about.

    Or it could be a synthesis. Learning English quickly was a way to show the other Americans they had come to contribute. However, that plan only works if there is a basic assumption that immigrants are capable of doing something we consider a "contribution". Having quotas is a very straightforward way of telling people we don't want them (and will only tolerate a certain number out of the generosity of our hearts.)

    Unfortunately, that is (mostly) the truth. I'm hard pressed to think of any job an immigrant does that isn't either possible to automate now, or shows promise of being possible to automate in the near future.
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    I'm hard pressed to think of any job an immigrant does that isn't either possible to automate now, or shows promise of being possible to automate in the near future.
    Start off with aged care workers, nannies, housemaids, gardeners, cooks.

    Good equipment and some automation can help perform some of these tasks, but not all. Certainly not hand-feeding infants or the frail elderly.
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    In China, it seems they're solving the infant problem by way of the elderly raising the young instead of their direct parents doing it. However, after an elderly person can no longer sustain themselves, I'm not sure what they do for that. I guess put the children to work?

    But in the USA, I guess our standard of living demands that we be able to send our elders to a care center of some kind. The kids are too busy watching TV and playing video games to help with any of that, and you're a "bad parent" if you don't take an active role in raising your own child.
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    A lot of parents of those immigrants wouldn't even let their kids talk their native language in the home.
    That was our house in the 1960s...we were French Canadian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    You Westerners think that you all, are the master race, but the fact is, the West stole its inventions from Asia, Arab countries and Africa.
    Your beliefs of the master race are not true, you all should go thank the Asians, Arabs, and Africans you stole your technology from.
    You are not the master race!!!
    .
    Chad,
    Do you have any evidence to back up this inane nonsense ?
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    ... Japan ... Will you accuse them in racism too?
    Absolutely.

    They're not just racist about immigrants, their treatment of indigenous but-not-the-same-as-the-dominant-islands people is also pretty shabby. (I know as an Australian we don't have a lot to be proud of on this issue. But I can recognise the same kinds of flaws in other countries.)

    A relative of mine has worked in Japan for many years. He can't be 'naturalised' and gain the same citizenship status as a person in similar circumstances would do in Australia or the USA. He can't even get his superannuation and similar savings out of the country and return to Australia unless and until he jumps through a pretty forbidding series of hoops. (There are some quite peculiar conditions attached to his employment because he's not Japanese.)

    When he started working there he quite liked the country and the people. Now he doesn't exactly hate it, but he can't wait to meet all the qualifications for getting himself and his cash out of there. Australians often criticise each other for being racist. He reckons they should meet some real racists.
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    Lets all racist create their own country and live there separatly
    No. Places like Japan and Malaysia and Zimbabwe and Fiji and dozens of others come up with all sorts of racist/religious/ridiculous notions for discriminating within their own countries and in dealing with others. I think organisations like the European Union, the Commonwealth, ASEAN, the UN, OECD and others can be very effective in pointing out to these countries that there are better ways to do things.

    The fact that none of us is perfect and we will never have a perfect grouping of perfect countries shouldn't stop us from trying to do the best we can ourselves. And there's no harm in showing other countries that they'd be better off if they concentrated on bringing out the best in all their citizens rather than getting them to point fingers at one another. Because we all know, once the fingers start pointing, some people will think about pointing guns.
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    The problem I see is cultural mixing. Multiculturalism gets touted like the greatest thing since sliced bread, but what actual evidence is there that a mixing of cultures really benefits anyone? Mexico is a grand synthesis of two cultures, and it's a hole. The USA is on the opposite side of the spectrum, a case where two cultures clashed and one wiped the other out utterly.

    Eastern Europe mixing Mongolian culture into its primarily slavic European culture was consistently ~200 years behind the West for most of the middle ages. It's a rich and interesting culture, but those states composed of people from that culture are mostly failed states. Are there any reliable counter examples? Any known situations where two or more cultures evenly mixed and it brought about a good result?
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    Multiculturalism gets touted like the greatest thing since sliced bread, but what actual evidence is there that a mixing of cultures really benefits anyone?
    Australia, New Zealand, USA. Only NZ really counts as having done pretty well with their indigenous population despite some continuing problems, but all three are pretty good examples of taking in immigrants from many places and ending up with a fairly reasonable, fairly peaceable - interesting - blending, mixing and highlighting of cultures, religions, customs.

    I don't know Europe well enough to pick out who's done better/worse on these criteria. But I'd say they've not done too badly by and large once you isolate the ripple effects around the Serb-Croat-Muslim conflicts and prejudices.

    Lets all racist create their own country and live there separatly.
    Can't be done. We are all capable of prejudice, discrimination and worse behaviour based on perceived differences. Those bad people could just as easily be us ourselves in some circumstances - unless you believe that Germany, Rwanda, Zimbabwe populations were suddenly taken over by entirely different kinds of people for a few years or decades of their history.

    Bad circumstances, bad politics, bad leaders can combine to bring out the very worst in people who would, in other times and circumstances, be kind, generous and peaceful. Once again, look at peaceful, successful countries around the world who've done awful things based on racial or religious prejudice in the past. The people who live there now are not innately different from those who went before, but they are profoundly different in behaviour and attitudes.
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    but what actual evidence is there that a mixing of cultures really benefits anyone?
    Just the fact I can take my wife to a movie and diner tonight and mix it up with Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Arabs and we won't all want to kill each other or simply refuse to even enter the building until they leave would be completely alien to even people even as close in time as our grandparents.

    We take so much for granted.
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    even people even as close in time as our grandparents.
    Being older than most of you, I can remember rude name-calling and other childish stuff between gangs of kids who went to the parish schools and all of us protestants who went to state school. But I really envied catholic kids their fish and chips for lunch on Fridays while I was stuck with the same packed lunch as usual. By the time I left primary school, the whole picture had changed due to immigration of many, many thousands of mainly Italian and Greek families who just sent their kids to the nearest school.

    I also remember my grandmother telling me that I should be careful who I talked to and danced with at social events because "Catholic boys will lead good Protestant girls astray". It was only later that I learned that grandpa was "protestant" only because his very catholic grandfather had had a row with the parish priest - and started going to the Methodist (Presbyterian?) chapel across the road.

    Now? My nephew's children go to a Greek Orthodox church with their mother and grandparents and 'Greek school' on Saturday mornings. One of my closest friends is Fijian-Indian. Nobody bats an eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Eastern Europe mixing Mongolian culture into its primarily slavic European culture was consistently ~200 years behind the West for most of the middle ages.
    It would be interesting to analyze in which exactly aspects Russia always was behind West for 200 years? For example in France most of peasants received freedom only after 1789 revolution.In Russia it happened peacefully in 1861.Only 70 years after French.Though in large part of Ukraine peasant received freedom after Khmelnitski uprising in 1647.One of the first free serfs in Europe!And lost freedom again only in 1795 by order of Catherine the Great (who wasn`t Russian).Ukrainian cossacks for example,were quite democratic people.They didn`t have any particulary cruel and meanengless panishments such as burning at stake, etc.They had formal elections in which any common cossack could participate.And they had tradition by putting dirt on head and face of their newly elected Hetman (the ruler) so he would not be too proud.It doesn`t have any references to Mongolian and other despotic cultures of those times.Easter Europe avoided meaningless inquisition and widescale witch hunting which devastated Western Europe.
    I'm mostly going off of this:

    Mongol invasion of Rus' - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    I think mostly it was technology that lagged, but I'm not sure. Ukraine certainly is an interesting country, though. Hard to say what it could have achieved if it hadn't lost so many wars.


    Up to now it`s difficult to find the same amount of beauty women in Western Europe as you could find in Eastern.Some people say it is due to witch hunting.Any beauty woman was proclaimed a witch.
    Definitely have to agree that's an advantage.

    The USA is on the opposite side of the spectrum, a case where two cultures clashed and one wiped the other out utterly.
    I lost in attempts to guess which two cultures you exacly mean?[/QUOTE]

    The Indigenous American population (natives) were pretty much wiped out wholesale by the American settlers.

    Technically, I guess there was more than one culture among the natives. (I'm sure a Souix would be somewhat insulted to be told they're "just like" a Cherokee, but ... at least they're similar compared to a European.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    but what actual evidence is there that a mixing of cultures really benefits anyone?
    Just the fact I can take my wife to a movie and diner tonight and mix it up with Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Arabs and we won't all want to kill each other or simply refuse to even enter the building until they leave would be completely alien to even people even as close in time as our grandparents.

    We take so much for granted.
    That's a good description of multi-culturalism. But I'm failing to see what's so great about it. If they all lived in different places, and avoided contact, why not hate each other? What's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Multiculturalism gets touted like the greatest thing since sliced bread, but what actual evidence is there that a mixing of cultures really benefits anyone?
    Australia, New Zealand, USA. Only NZ really counts as having done pretty well with their indigenous population despite some continuing problems, but all three are pretty good examples of taking in immigrants from many places and ending up with a fairly reasonable, fairly peaceable - interesting - blending, mixing and highlighting of cultures, religions, customs.

    I don't know Europe well enough to pick out who's done better/worse on these criteria. But I'd say they've not done too badly by and large once you isolate the ripple effects around the Serb-Croat-Muslim conflicts and prejudices.
    Good point. I forgot that the USA was a "mixing pot" of cultures from Europe. So multiple cultures come together to form one.

    Perhaps what I object to is the "salad bowl" approach. With a mixing pot, you end up with a culture that has discernable attributes. With a salad bowl, you don't really end up with anything. Just a bunch of random pieces that don't come together to form anything in particular. We're not mixing late Renaissance painting styles with Mestizo to get a new art form. We're just randomly throwing paint on the canvass.
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    With a salad bowl, you don't really end up with anything. Just a bunch of random pieces that don't come together to form anything in particular.
    What on earth do you want? Some kind of picture postcard, identifiable from space tourist attraction comes to my mind.

    I like to think of the little protestant church I went to as a kid. By the time I was 30 it had been bought and reconsecrated as an Orthodox local church - and I got one of the choir chairs because it had been donated originally by my grandparents. Now it's been knocked down and the whole site has become a Muslim community centre. The foundation stone is now in the side garden of another close by church. In all phases it's been adopted and adapted to the needs of the surrounding community. It's probably sheer luck that it wasn't on a bigger road that made it attractive or necessary to knock down and obliterate for commercial or transport purposes.

    Uniformity and homogeneity of any kind I find a bit distasteful. When my husband was teaching at an English language school for recent immigrants and temporary residents he could never understand the fuss in newspapers and the larger community about headscarves for Muslim girls. They were only allowed to attend there for 2 years. At the beginning all the headscarves would be carefully adjusted and maintained. By the end of their second year, many of these girls would happily discard a scarf in order to play sport or other schoolyard games. Some did much the same thing as other girls do with makeup. Leave home carefully complying with parents rules, arrive at school bareheaded as in other schools girls arrive with makeup on.

    If you just leave them alone, in his view, the kids will adjust to the surrounding culture quite smoothly. Just as other immigrants did before them.
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    It never ceases to amaze me, when I read these discussions about race and religion. Almost everyone comes out of the woodwork, to say that they have friends who are Muslim, friends who are black, friends who are Asians, friends who are Arabs. I do wonder if they have any friends who are white. I live in Carlisle Cumbria, all of my friends are white Anglo Saxon Celts, Protestant or Catholic. Am I retarded ? Do I need reorientated ? I travel to my capital city, London, once a year for the rugby league final, and the benefits of multiculturalism are plain to be seen.
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    Another aspect is often seperation reinforces the notion of good reasons for the seperations that end up being extended to smaller and smaller differences within their own groups. The white Catholic boy who speaks with a French accent (me) gets picked on by the white Methodist boys. The Masch Arab tribe which burns another tribes villege to a group, though they share the same religion, customs and several common ancesters-- (only distinquished by the colors they wore to our American eyes). It seems once you accept seperation for what ever reason it becomes the stalking horse for other irrational xonophobias.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post

    [/b]Uniformity and homogeneity of any kind I find a bit distasteful. [/b]When my husband was teaching at an English language school for recent immigrants and temporary residents he could never understand the fuss in newspapers and the larger community about headscarves for Muslim girls. They were only allowed to attend there for 2 years. At the beginning all the headscarves would be carefully adjusted and maintained. By the end of their second year, many of these girls would happily discard a scarf in order to play sport or other schoolyard games. Some did much the same thing as other girls do with makeup. Leave home carefully complying with parents rules, arrive at school bareheaded as in other schools girls arrive with makeup on.

    If you just leave them alone, in his view, the kids will adjust to the surrounding culture quite smoothly. Just as other immigrants did before them.
    That first part is unfortunate. People need a common framework to work within. I note on the physics forum that whenever the discussion turns deep into theory, there's this whole other language that emerges, with "Hamiltonians", "Eigenstates", and "Minkowski Space".... etc. I know most of those words are simply the last name of whoever discovered the concept and bear absolutely no phonetic relationship to the concept they describe. Others are left over German terms from back when Germany was running the show.

    The point is, they need a language. There has to be common agreement about the groundwork or nobody can build anything on top of it. I suppose too much agreement would mean the system was too inflexible. But too little agreement means the system is flexible like how a blob is flexible, in that there is no specific form for it to even deviate from in the first place.

    Salad bowl integration simply discards whatever framework was in place and replaces it with nothing. That's why it creates the kind of chaos and poverty Dave Wilson seemed to be hinting at seeing in London. You've got multiple different systems of thought all overlapping each other. Each possibly capably of building a functional society on its own, but not able to do so to completion because someone will accuse them of being inflexible if ever they dare bring in the rigid parts. But any functional system has to have rigid parts. Taking the un-rigid parts of 10 systems, or even 100 systems won't give you a working society.
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    Any time two cultures meet and disagree, we seem to always expect them to take the lightweight approach as their unifying principle. One country has the death penalty, the other doesn't: therefore nobody can be executed. One country lops off the hands of thieves, the other imprisons them: therefore thieves must be imprisoned. ....etc.

    The trouble is you can't run a functional society with no heavyweight rules in it. But, that's the only way multi-culturalism can work. Most of the time, the heavy weight rules don't integrate very well unless they just so happen to overlap completely. If both cultures lopped the hands off of thieves, then a multi-cultural mix of them would do so also. With melting pot on the other hand.... both cultures disappear and are replaced by the new hybrid. The new hybrid can have heavyweight rules in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Ukraine certainly is an interesting country, though. Hard to say what it could have achieved if it hadn't lost so many wars.
    And would not experience too many genocides.
    Pogroms don't count?

    Ukraine doesn't have a sparkling history in the anti-Semitism area.
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    I read only the first few posts and then stopped because I suspected I would get annoyed.

    I don't like nations. I don't like nationalism. I don't like "My country right or wrong" patriotism.

    We are one species living on one planet. Borders and bigotry don't get my vote.

    Maybe I'm an idealist, but I'd rather like ideals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    For exaple,how is it possible that mind
    of majority of population and influential politicians is
    completely ignored?
    Because sometimes it is wise to ignore stupdity and bigotry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Ukraine certainly is an interesting country, though. Hard to say what it could have achieved if it hadn't lost so many wars.
    And would not experience too many genocides.
    Pogroms don't count?

    Ukraine doesn't have a sparkling history in the anti-Semitism area.
    Yeah. And Cossacks, for all the enlightenment they showed in their internal politics, were perpetual war mongers, pillaging and plundering everyone they could win a fight with in the regions adjacent to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Because sometimes it is wise to ignore stupdity and bigotry.
    Absense of democracy could lead to something good?
    Singapore under the direction of Lee Kuan Yew.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I guess we could tell that throughout its history Ukraine lost largest part of its population.Maybe even best part of its population.
    It certainly retained the best parts of its female population.

    To be honest, I think the military stability of Western Europe was due to having two sides of its major borders on the Sea. Ukraine was surrounded by ethnic groups that hated each other and them. Poland, the Tatars, the Ottomans..... Europe on the other hand, was invulnerable to assault from the North or West, because nobody lived over there to attack them. Only on the South and East did they really face any opposition, and most of it was met by the people who lived on the outer edges of those borders. European powers certainly fought one another, but since they all hailed from a common culture, their peasants were compatible. If the King of England were to conquer a province in France, the French peasants would simply lend him their allegiance, and pay the same taxes they'd already been paying to their old ruler. Ukraine's peasants didn't have that option, because each of their likely rulers was totally different from the other. There was no way for them to make all three happy.
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    I hope you can see that I'm trying to steer this back into the OP. Ukraine's problem all throughout its history has been that it was forced to interact with cultures that its own culture was incompatible with. Cultural incompatibility breeds misery. Ukraine experienced quite a lot of that misery.

    Either the dominant one uses draconian measures against the other, or both of them must simply endure total anarchy, because in order to impose any laws, the question will always have to be resolved of: who's laws? Who's right? Who's wrong? On what basis do we criticize the actions of a person from another system of thought? And yet we must criticize if we are to punish. And we must punish if our laws are to have any meaning.
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    You know, going back to immigration itself: it's not so much that it's cultural mixing. It's that the worst members of the culture are the ones most likely to immigrate. Mexicans may not have a statistically higher likelihood of possessing a criminal mindset than Americans, but Mexican immigrants aren't average Mexicans. They're the dregs of Mexican society who couldn't make it in their homeland. We get Mexico's trash. I think the same could be said of immigration in Europe. Western Europe is tired of absorbing everyone else's trash.

    As far as Ukraine, I've been meaning to start a thread about this: I think what would do the most to fix that country would be to improve their tort laws (introduce class action law suits). The best way to deal with a corrupt police force is to allow the citizens to sue the police department every time an officer deviates from the written rules of his/her profession. If some officer asks you to pay him a bribe, and threatens to lie and say you committed a crime if you don't, you tape it, get his badge number, and let him arrest you, then sue the police department for 200,000 Hryvnia. They'll fire him immediately.

    The same goes for wealthy citizens who may escape justice by bribing officials or hiring really good lawyers. Some rich guy runs over your kid in his BMW, and the police won't arrest him (terrified of his connections.) Fine. Sue him instead. I can tell you in the USA if some rich guy runs over your kid, he doesn't laugh and drive off. He comes to you with his hat in his hand and begs you "Please don't sue me."

    But that could be Ukraine too, if they were to copy America's tort system over and use it. I realize now that it's not so much a matter of Americans being "brave" against our government. We wouldn't be nearly so brave if we didn't have this kind of recourse. And, if you think about it, we really weren't. Prior to World War II (which is when the tort suits began), police corruption was quite a lot worse in the USA.
    Last edited by kojax; July 30th, 2012 at 02:09 AM.
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    I`m curious to know how thats happened that in the last 40 years U.S. accepted 40 millions of latinoamericans?Did they come there as leagal immigrants or what program they used to legalize in U.S.?
    Both. And in some cases both at the same time, entering for example with a legal work VISA but never returning home after it expired.

    And in many ways they've been a tremendous boom to American economy combining cheap labor with strong family values which has lowered the crime rate where they've settled--they are not the dregs of Mexican society--in many ways they are the motivated to improve their plight. Unfortunately there's a ignorant segment of American society which refuses to look at the data and instead uses fear to spread bigotry against this latest group of people.

    The few Middle Eastern workers I met in Iraq trying to immigrate to Europe were much the same way--honest, with strong family values and had almost unlimited drive to improve the plight of their family's lives. They've been a great addition into any society tolerant enough to have them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    As far as Ukraine, I've been meaning to start a thread about this: I think what would do the most to fix that country would be to improve their tort laws (introduce class action law suits).
    Courts in post USSR countries are not less corrupted than police.There is often cases when police cautch some criminal boss but he pays something like 100.000 $ and more and court let him go or give him a laughable sentence.
    It is not easy to prove the case in the court either.The rich guy could hire good layer who will ``prove`` anything he wants.And why do you think that guy on BMW would have connections in police but not in courts?This is not particular police officers who are corrupt but the entire system.Everithing is linked in this system to each other.The judges in the courts are usual human beings and depend on the entire system as well.If some guy will sue a police officer then other police officers will come to his house and will ``find`` heroine there.
    I think that post USSR countries are lost cause for the few next decates.Something could change there only through violent revolution with elimination of substantial (corrupted) part of population or surrendering sovereignity to some much less corrupted country.The last variant is of course something that elites will try to prevent and possible only in violent manner.

    I agree that you're right, and you can't win in criminal court. If the police are corrupt, and the rich person is well connected, then they will probably get away with it.

    However, civil court is different from criminal court. It's entirely different.

    The way a civil case works in the USA is there is no presumption of innocence. For example, if you sue somebody because they slashed the tires on your car and caused you to miss work, you would start by estimating how much money you think their actions cost you, and then you would file a law suit in civil court claiming they owe you that much money as "damages". Since you are an ordinary citizen, the court presumes that it is just as likely that you are telling the truth as that you are not, and so the person you're accusing is also considered equally likely to be guilty as innocent.

    If it's a rich guy, and he ran over your child and killed them, then you would file a "wrongful death" suit, and since it's difficult to put a value on human life, you could sue for millions of dollars. Lawyers will gladly take your case, offering to only charge you if you win, but expecting a percentage (sometimes as high as 33% of whatever you win in court.) So if you're suing for millions of dollars, you will probably have a really good lawyer working for you. If you win the rich guy doesn't go to prison, but he has to pay you whatever the amount of money was, which probably means he will be poor now.

    If it's a police officer who did something wrong, then you don't sue the police officer. Instead you sue the whole police department. You say it's the department's fault that officer did what he did. Your high priced lawyer will probably have good private investigators and hire body guards for you if you need them (remember he expects to make a lot of money when/if you win). If the police come to your house "looking for drugs" your lawyer would have his investigator watch them with a camera while they search. If they try to frame you, then you can sue them for even more money.


    A fine example of what I'm talking about would be OJ Simpson, who was a famous celebrity who was accused of murdering his wife and a friend of hers. He hired a really good lawyer, and managed to be found innocent of the murder in criminal court. However, afterward, the parents of the friend (Ronald Goldman) sued him for "wrongful death" of their son. Since the burden of evidence was lower, he wasn't able to prove he was innocent with enough certainty and the court ruled in favor of the friend's family. He was required to pay them $33,500,000.00 for murdering their son. He never went to prison, but he lost all of his money.

    O. J. Simpson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by kojax; July 31st, 2012 at 11:01 PM. Reason: correct detail - was Ronald Goldman' family, not Nicole Simpson's family that sued.
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