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Thread: Are we wasting our time in the middle east Kill Kill Kill seems the only thing they Know?

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Yes, but Omar Sharif was eventually a Hollywood actor.
    Thus no language barrier.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    maybe they're worth saving after all.
    The intention that remains the stalking horse for a myriad of atrocities throughout human history.

    And honestly I've already put up 50+ examples from business and music; you seem just unwilling to acknowledge them as examples of non-violent "celebrity... (famous would probably be better)people. Here's another , Nawal El Saddawi famous literary author who's been a big proponent of women's rights in the region.
    Oh no. I am not intending to discount them. I've even listed a few of their accomplishments on my own. I'm just fishing for more. There can never be too many.

    I'm mostly trying to criticize the manner in which the anti-hate proponents go about their argument. Instead of saying "They probably have accomplishments. You just don't know about them because you're an ignorant American who can't speak every language known to man, and isn't personally familiar with every single culture in the whole world." It would be better to say: "Look. Here's one of their non-war accomplishments. Isn't it great?" You get a lot further being specific, and the longer the list of specifics the better.
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    Oh no. I am not intending to discount them. I've even listed a few of their accomplishments on my own. I'm just fishing for more.
    Fair enough.

    But I hope you see that if an American-Arab where to read this thread: the way the original thread was worded, the idea the middle east people needs saving, the demonstrated ignorance that US (and recent European history) is actually more violent by some measures than most of Arabia, that there's a complete unwillingness to do a bit of research--well is all supports the notion and characterization of Americans as ugly, egomaniacs unwilling to see their own faults while all the while eager to fabricate information about other cultures then claim they need "saving".
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  4. #104  
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    I'm hoping they would see an ignorant OP that was then refuted intelligently by other posters who were able to demonstrate an awareness of what the middle East's accomplishments actually are. It's like being on a date with a woman and simply telling her she's "great". She'd probably prefer a sincere compliment, one that shows you know something about her. Something.... specific.

    If neither side can provide that, then both sides are equally ignorant. One is simply making more generous assumptions.
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    I know that Islam religion came from there and it itself is a big accomplishment that change many nation. It introduce compulsory hygiene (5 times a day wash hand feet and face), and compulsory praying that bring community to the like of pilgrim in Mecca, and maybe more. That is something big, since at that time there's plague ravaging thru Rome and Europe... killing alot of people.
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    That's the problem with it too. It was a great innovation, which then proclaimed that there would be no more innovations after it (Mohammad being the "last prophet" and all.) It's like being paid a big lump sum of money but then losing your source of income to get it. It's great for a while because you're so rich, but in the long run you'd have been better off keeping your job.

    The introduction of Islam rapidly changed an uncivilized land full of nomadic bandits into a functional society, and then stopped them from ever being able to progress further than that. Meanwhile Western Europe chugged along slowly, absorbing some of the good scholarly progress from some great Islamic scholars that the other Muslims were casting aside and spitting on (in particular the scientific method which an Islamic scholar came up with... but the other Islamic scholars never adapted and used). But Europe kept those innovations and kept adding to them until it pulled ahead.

    If we wait another 1000 years, Islam will probably just fall another 500 years behind. That should put it 300 years ahead of where we are now.
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    There's also one called Islamic Banking... Which use alternative loan/lending scheme.
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    Did Islam Philosophy/ Religious Beliefs arise in the 6th/7th Century? In Western Culture would this have been the time of the Dark Ages? The Eastern World had reasons and needs to implement new Policy. One of the main reasons being Uniting the Federation of Arab States by accepting the confines of a structured Faith Order. Allah's will. Who, in the Arab world could see that this would lead to a stronger Nation? A Nation that could raise an Empire? World History repeating itself. These were Pragmated considerations. The German Nation needed Living Space, said Hitler, so this is what we have to do. The Romans just wanted conquest of the whole known world. The Spanish, Portuguese, the Dutch, set themselves up to grab what they could. So, in the case of the Islamic Faith, wasn't this just a means to an end that became an end to its means? Once strong and united under Arab leadership they spread their wings into Spain/Gaul, into Africa, into India. So they had a stradgetic control network. What will we do next they said to themselves. The so called Western European Catholic Nations were living on dirt floors while Islamic Master Tradesmen were building some of the great Mosques and Cities. As usual, it was the Catholics who woke from a deep misunderstanding and misjudgement of the real power of Islamic Fundermentalists, that the final battle for World Dominance was not that far away. So now, after an adventurous 1500 hundred years or so, the Islamic Fundermentalists needed to sieze the new opportunity to unite all muslim Nations. The new Glue? Oil. The new revival, Islam and the Koran. And what are the Western Nations using for Glue? westwind.
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  9. #109  
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    Did Islam Philosophy/ Religious Beliefs arise in the 6th/7th Century? In Western Culture would this have been the time of the Dark Ages? T
    Hard to say. The fall of the Western Roman Empire was about 476 AD, so the would probably mark the start of the decline, but one could argue that the Medieval era of Europe didn't start until shortly after the Battle of Tours in 732 AD, which is the moment in history where Western Europe suddenly realized it would need to unite and fast, or they'd get wiped out by the Islamic fundamentalists to their South. A huge army of Muslims had just conquered Spain and were marching north into Gauls/France. Europe was just lucky enough to have a really, really good general in charge of their armies (Charles Martel).

    So, perceiving that they'd probably lose the next round if things stayed as they were (Charles wasn't going to live forever), the Europeans decided to fight fundamentalism with fundamentalism, and that's when the most severe phase of forced-Christian-conversions began. There's a lesson from history in this: don't become your enemy in order to beat your enemy. Since 911, I've often wondered whether we plan to learn it or not.



    The Spanish, Portuguese, the Dutch, set themselves up to grab what they could.
    Yeah, after they finally had gotten themselves out from under Muslim rule.

    As usual, it was the Catholics who woke from a deep misunderstanding and misjudgement of the real power of Islamic Fundermentalists, that the final battle for World Dominance was not that far away. So now, after an adventurous 1500 hundred years or so, the Islamic Fundermentalists needed to sieze the new opportunity to unite all muslim Nations. The new Glue? Oil. The new revival, Islam and the Koran. And what are the Western Nations using for Glue? westwind.
    Personally I'm hoping we'll learn our lesson and not try to counter glue with glue.

    If the price of defeating Islamic culture without wiping them out is going to be for us to lose our own basic freedoms in the process, then I'd rather we do to them like we did to the American Indians, and feel bad about it later (while continuing to enjoy our freedoms.)

    If we can be assured that we'll be able to have it both ways and both keep our freedoms and avoid wiping them out, then by all means let's do that. But only if we're sure. Usually whenever you try to have your cake and eat it too, you end up with neither.
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  10. #110  
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    Western economics need to recover first...
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    What I can't understand is, being British, we were at war with the IRA for decades and they managed to create havoc, constant bombings and real terrorism (in the actual sense and not the derogatory one).

    Why is it that there has only been two actual incidents of so called terrorist acts from al-qaeda ?, they should be able to construct a terror campaign unrivaled by any other as there funds and measurably larger than the IRA's, and so are there pool of believers. But alas there is very little. It struck me one day, when the British airlines companies were complaining about the security measures in place and the fact that very little activity had taken place. The next day bombs were found inside of photocopier parts that were being flown in their cargo hulls, the complaints stopped. Very convenient I think... ?

    The use of security measures to subdue our civil liberties is comprehensive in the UK and the US, when the threat of terrorism is unknown to the majority of us, the media plays there part in hyping up the so called dangers. I'm sorry to say that the real terrorists are our own governments and large corporations who rape and pillage the resources of other countries to feed the ever hungry capitalistic societies in which we live. Using the IMF and central banks to lend monies to countries that have very little hope of ever paying it back, and thus using the debt as levers to control the resources, where this fails war follows.

    Western economies are based on the need for constant ever ending growth, without growth the markets reel inwards, for western society to prevail we have no choice but to continue plundering the resources of other countries. China has also realised this as there entire manufacturing economy relies on the western consumerism, hence the need for the growth in Africa.

    The problem is and has always been greed, power and religion.

    Until a catastrophic event occurs this will always be the case, we never learn from the wall street crash of 1929 to the world financial crisis of 2007/08. The people caught up in the middle are 99% who do not own a bean. Muslim people are generous, kind, compassionate people who have strict values and ideals, where the majority of westerners are decadent and have no morals or values. The job as good Muslims is to convert the rest of us, but war is their last resort. You cannot take 1,000,000,000 people and lump them all into the container called evil. Because they view the world differently to us does not make us right and them wrong. Of course there are those Muslim people that twist there teachings into an extremist view but the same can be said for almost any religion the world has to offer.

    For the record, I am not Muslim, a do-gooder, religious or insane. :-)

    Iraq -100,000 civilians dead ;
    Afghanistan - 32,000 civilians dead ;
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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by garr View Post

    Until a catastrophic event occurs this will always be the case, we never learn from the wall street crash of 1929 to the world financial crisis of 2007/08. The people caught up in the middle are 99% who do not own a bean. Muslim people are generous, kind, compassionate people who have strict values and ideals, where the majority of westerners are decadent and have no morals or values. The job as good Muslims is to convert the rest of us, but war is their last resort. You cannot take 1,000,000,000 people and lump them all into the container called evil. Because they view the world differently to us does not make us right and them wrong. Of course there are those Muslim people that twist there teachings into an extremist view but the same can be said for almost any religion the world has to offer.

    For the record, I am not Muslim, a do-gooder, religious or insane. :-)

    Iraq -100,000 civilians dead ;
    Afghanistan - 32,000 civilians dead ;

    It's something to do with the idea of forcible conversion, and that 50% of our population (the female half) would be required to sacrifice all notions of having "rights".

    They're probably right that our decadence and materialism is out of hand, though. A nice truce would be one where we leave everyone's resources alone and focus on surviving off the resources within our own borders. But that's "isolationism" and the globalists condemn it. Somehow conservative Americans have fallen in with that way of thinking too, forgetting that most of America's history is one of nearly fantical isolationism. No President of the USA ever left American soil prior to Woodrow Wilson.
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    It's something to do with the idea of forcible conversion, and that 50% of our population (the female half) would be required to sacrifice all notions of having "rights".
    Actually Islam specifies considerable amount of rights for women, more than was common in any Western cultures until secularization. You might want to do some reading about it. The cultural restrictions are often much worse than what the Koran and Hadiths, that is Islam, calls for. Some Islamic nations might also surprise you, for example Afghanistan's parliament has a much higher proportion of women than US congress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's something to do with the idea of forcible conversion, and that 50% of our population (the female half) would be required to sacrifice all notions of having "rights".
    Actually Islam specifies considerable amount of rights for women, more than was common in any Western cultures until secularization. You might want to do some reading about it.
    Yes. Islam is really great at doing well now in areas we used to do very badly at a long time ago.

    The cultural restrictions are often much worse than what the Koran and Hadiths, that is Islam, calls for.
    And you think they'll only forcibly convert us to the Koran and Hadiths, but leave out all the cultural stuff?

    Some Islamic nations might also surprise you, for example Afghanistan's parliament has a much higher proportion of women than US congress.
    That is actually pretty cool. We can add that to our list of things Muslims know how to do besides kill kill kill. Once we get enough of them maybe I'll consolidate them into a single post.
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    as/re isolationism:
    the machine through which I am communicating has parts from eastern europe, korea, china, and other asian countries...etc.etc.
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    So do you really believe everything that we are told and shown. Do you really think that all the trouble, strife and kill,kill,kill is solely due to the Muslim faith and or people. I really doubt that, they are no better or worse than the western culture they despise so much. We have given the fundamentalists exactly what they need to rally the conversion cries, and they have given the despot western leaders something to rally behind to hide there incompetence. They both need each other, they feed from each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's something to do with the idea of forcible conversion, and that 50% of our population (the female half) would be required to sacrifice all notions of having "rights".
    Actually Islam specifies considerable amount of rights for women, more than was common in any Western cultures until secularization. You might want to do some reading about it. The cultural restrictions are often much worse than what the Koran and Hadiths, that is Islam, calls for. Some Islamic nations might also surprise you, for example Afghanistan's parliament has a much higher proportion of women than US congress.
    Are women allowed to drive an automobile in Saudi Arabia ?
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    no they are not
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  20. #120  
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    Quote Originally Posted by garr View Post
    Muslim people are generous, kind, compassionate people who have strict values and ideals, where the majority of westerners are decadent and have no morals or values.
    That is a sweeping statement. Where do you fit in ?
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    lol. Yes it is quite sweeping isn't it, but...

    read this --> http://www.lancs.ac.uk/jais/volume/docs/vol4/4_111-131serajzade1.pdf

    I
    sound like their perfect, but obviously they are not and nor are we.

    Where do I fit in, well that's a little beyond the scope of this post
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  22. #122  
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    I hope that you did not go to this school.

    Pakistan: Jihadis blow up girls' school - Jihad Watch
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    Obviously that is appalling, but do you condone dropping bombs on children like the west do ?

    The war mongers of this planet do not care who they kill and our government is no better than those jihadis in your link.

    I'm not saying that 100% of all Muslims are good what I am saying is that we are no better, and that the normal Muslims have descent values and live peaceful lives.
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    Here in the us, our bureau of propaganda seeks to keep us a violent culture. On our media, you will see thousands of murders, and no breasts. And the hero police violate constitutional rights "for the better good" on a regular basis. We are taught that lying and cheating by the "good guys" is ok. Even our laws are skewed in such that it is ok for the police to lie to a suspect, but lying to the police can land you in jail. For every 1000 shootings by police, 1 may actually go to trial. The childern of the powerful are not usually pursued by the law.

    So what do I expect from our foreign policy people?
    Not one whole hell of a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garr View Post
    Obviously that is appalling, but do you condone dropping bombs on children like the west do ?
    The last time that I looked, the West does not condone dropping bombs on children, baby milk factories or wedding parties. Are you from the East ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Here in the us, our bureau of propaganda seeks to keep us a violent culture. On our media, you will see thousands of murders, and no breasts. And the hero police violate constitutional rights "for the better good" on a regular basis. We are taught that lying and cheating by the "good guys" is ok. Even our laws are skewed in such that it is ok for the police to lie to a suspect, but lying to the police can land you in jail. For every 1000 shootings by police, 1 may actually go to trial. The childern of the powerful are not usually pursued by the law.

    So what do I expect from our foreign policy people?
    Not one whole hell of a lot.
    I watched " J. Edgar " on DVD last night, give it a go.
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    Many years ago, Muammar Gaddafi said that the USA were the real terrorists, sending in our warbirds at the drop of a hat to wreak hell havoc and terror on the world. We promptly responded by sending in a couple war birds to bomb his tent. Muammar wasn't home, but we did manage to kill his 3 year old son.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Many years ago, Muammar Gaddafi said that the USA were the real terrorists, sending in our warbirds at the drop of a hat to wreak hell havoc and terror on the world. We promptly responded by sending in a couple war birds to bomb his tent. Muammar wasn't home, but we did manage to kill his 3 year old son.
    Collateral damage then.
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    No I'm not from the east.

    Collateral damage means what exactly. Does a just cause provide the right for anyone to become collateral damage ?

    So the 3000 or so people killed in New York collateral damage then ?
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    There's a difference between dropping a bomb knowing that there is a chance a child *might* get caught in the blast, and deliberately marching into a school, grabbing the children in person, and dropping acid in their faces or shooting them. Also a difference between blowing up a building that you know has civilians inside and poses no immediate threat to your own live or any of your soldiers' lives (and you know this prior to targeting it).

    If it were prosecuted as a murder, the worst you could get for America's actions would be manslaughter, or maybe Murder 2: depraved indifference. The actions of the Jihadists would be murder 1, because it's premeditated. They meant to hurt civilians.



    Quote Originally Posted by garr View Post
    So do you really believe everything that we are told and shown. Do you really think that all the trouble, strife and kill,kill,kill is solely due to the Muslim faith and or people. I really doubt that, they are no better or worse than the western culture they despise so much. We have given the fundamentalists exactly what they need to rally the conversion cries, and they have given the despot western leaders something to rally behind to hide there incompetence. They both need each other, they feed from each other.
    I think both your version and the media's version are incorrect.

    The Islamic people are responding to a sudden collapse of their once-great empire. (By "sudden" I mean within the last 100 years). It has traumatized them so much to go from being feared the world over to being a laughing stock (that can't even take down one little country on the Mediterranean when they all band together), and they're trying to cope with it by simply demanding respect at gun point. It won't work, but they don't know that yet. Maybe they'll never figure it out. It always worked before, back when they were powerful.

    It's like when a once attractive actress who has since let herself go tries to play a leading role in some romantic comedy. But she's like fat and unattractive now. She still thinks she's hot so she's going around blowing kisses, and etc. It's really pathetic to watch.

    The difference is that the Islamic community is playing with fire when they do it. Their bullets can still cause harm, and their bombs can still disrupt the peace, even if they're not likely to be able to conquer anybody, or even hold their territory against invasion.
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    And American culture with it's overt projections of whores for women and brutal dishonest and violent men doesn't have a thing to do with their hatred for the West?......right....
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    I've got to say that stuff's just an excuse. Being offended at how someone else exercises their own freedom of speech has got the be the single most pathetic reason to hate anyone.

    Unless they're outright advocating your demise or breathing threats at you. In which case their likely behavior is what you're upset about, not their opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I've got to say that stuff's just an excuse. Being offended at how someone else exercises their own freedom of speech has got the be the single most pathetic reason to hate anyone.

    Unless they're outright advocating your demise or breathing threats at you. In which case their likely behavior is what you're upset about, not their opinions.
    Says the free American. You don't have any experience growing up in those kind of conditions, so your subjective judgements have little value imo. Rather, from my point of view, I'd be concerned with your display of xenophobia and lack of tolerance and understanding every so often on this forum.
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  34. #134  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Unless they're outright advocating your demise or breathing threats at you. In which case their likely behavior is what you're upset about, not their opinions.
    That's exactly what you've been proposing in this and other threads---the outright demise of their culture. The threat to their culture is not just an excuse--it is central to the many dozens of speaches and many writings by Bin Laden and others; he wanted most of all for the US and its Western national influence OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST. No Hollywood compromising their youth with whorish women and violent dishonest men; no more Western multicorporations corrupting their governments (aka his hatred for Saudi Royal family), or our governments overtly supporting the most brutal (e.g., Sha, Mobarak, etc); no more artificial borders imposed on their peoples (almost all the international borders were put there through colonial struggle), no more disinformation and lies about the violence, which as we've shown in this thread, is no worse than most of the West; no more of half the half baked Western ideas such as you propose to "make things better."

    Of course I don't entirely agree with their positions, but I certainly seen enough of the exploitation in person in the Middle East, share their hatred of how the US broadcast the most morally bankrupt aspects of our culture, and seen, eaten, listened, celebrated and shared enough of their culture to understand it's beautiful in its own way, and like peoples everywhere they deserve enough freedom to make their own choices regardless of how much it cost to fill the gas tank of an SUVs.
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  35. #135  
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    Kojax, I lived in Egypt for four years. I lived in Indonesia for two years and have visited many times. I visit Malaysia a couple of times a year. I have visited Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, Oman, Bahrain, Syria, Iran, Bangladesh, the United Arab Emirates, Jordan and Pakistan. I work with Algerians, Tunisians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Palestinians, Iranians, Syrians, Saudis, Kuwaitis, Indonesians and Malays. I am married to a Malay muslim. Your impression of Islam and of muslims does not reflect reality, but your own prejudices. Irrational and bigoted thinking is not only of no value it is socially dangerous.
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  36. #136  
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    It has been said that we defeated the soviet union by kicking up the cost of the cold war, eventually making the cost too high for the soviet union to survive.
    (wild guess du jour)
    In this sense, al quada may just be winning this economic war. The US is borrowing money to pay the interest on the debt of borrowed money to support our massive military budget, and is looking like we'll have over a trillion dollar annual deficit added to the extant debt. For the bail outs, the fed tripled the money supply, much of which is sitting and waiting instead of being reinvested to boost the ever growing world economy. How deep in debt can the west go before the costs become unbearable?
    Bin Laden said that he was waging an economic war, forcing us to spend trillions for his $500,000. investment in 9-11.
    And, xenophobic war mongering sabre rattling rhetoric (should it be effective) only assures the eventual victory of Bin Laden's al quada.
    When anyone is talking about more investment in military actions in service to settling foreign affairs, they are doing a serious disservice to their culture and economy. And, indeed assuring Bin Laden's success.

    What side are you on?
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  37. #137  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Unless they're outright advocating your demise or breathing threats at you. In which case their likely behavior is what you're upset about, not their opinions.
    That's exactly what you've been proposing in this and other threads---the outright demise of their culture.
    If you read carefully, you'll note that what I'm really advocating is that we properly apply MADD. Either both sides have to agree to be 100% non-genocidal, or both sides need to go to the extreme of full genocidal. MADD breaks down if you let it get forced into gray areas.

    Imagine during the Cold War, if the Soviets launched a single ICBM, and blew up Omaha Nebraska. Then the Soviet Premier gets the US President on the phone and asks him if he'd like to:

    A) - Target a single Soviet city and have the Soviets then target another American city

    B) - Surrender

    C) - Go full nuclear, and launch everything.

    I think we quickly realized that our survival (and the World's) would require us to always choose C, when faced with that scenario, and inform our enemies of that intention. The situation doesn't change if the Soviets use a proxy organization supposedly "unaffiliated" with them, nor if they use a smaller nuke that only affects a small group of civilians. It probably would have extended to them intentionally blowing up a landmark with civilians inside.

    It really concerns me if MADD starts to break down, because it's the only thing protecting humanity from our own technology. We have no choice but to preserve it. There is no alternative. Lots of emotional thinkers are appalled by the MADD strategy in general, and criticize it vehemently, but when you press the question, none of them have an alternative solution to offer. The hell with emotional thinking then, if it can't offer any answers. Maybe those people might decide to grow up for a second, turn off their feelings, and just use their brain.

    When you add it up logically (by which I mean 100% logic, and 0% emotion), you come to the conclusion that whoever starts a genocidal exchange has to be brought to suffer so horribly, that all onlookers are intimidated by what they have witnessed. That ensures the survival of the species.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The threat to their culture is not just an excuse--it is central to the many dozens of speaches and many writings by Bin Laden and others; he wanted most of all for the US and its Western national influence OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST. No Hollywood compromising their youth with whorish women and violent dishonest men
    The trouble here is when cultural genocide gets lumped together with physical genocide. Cultural genocide is basically inevitable. Violence won't stop it.

    How does any terrorist propose to prevent fellow Muslims from seeing naked pictures of women? Internet access will eventually become as cheap as cell phone tech already is. Unless the Muslim nations are kept in utter poverty forever, their people are inevitably going to get connected to it.

    As far as colonialism, a lot of that was already under way when the first nuke hit Hiroshima. We can't really incorporate political change into MADD because we'd have to come up with excuses for why nukes weren't already launched after a number of previous trigger conditions were already met.

    So for now... the only valid trigger has to remain the deliberate and physical taking of civilian lives. That's what happened on 9/11.
    Last edited by kojax; July 7th, 2012 at 10:52 AM.
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  38. #138  
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    100% logic, and 0% emotion
    So that'll be on the planet Jxyeb then, not here. If we want to make good decisions about human societies and their international relationships, we'd better start with a real understanding of what people are really like.

    You are working on the basis that if one country or group of countries does one particular thing, then the consequences are predictable. You might, just possibly, be right about that. What you've not demonstrated is that such a response will be both lasting and beneficial. There have been plenty of countries and other invaders who've pursued the kind of approach you advocate. You ought to know some history. Where are they now?

    The British had the a worldwide empire established and maintained with the kind of that'll-teach-'em violence you seem so fond of. They are still a wealthy country, but powerful? In control? They kept up the that'll-teach-'em strategy for centuries in Ireland. Did they ever 'win' for more than a few weeks or months or 20 or 50 sq miles at a time? And they finished up with just a remnant of the country which still managed to cause them grief for a good long while after Ireland itself reestablished self government.

    The Brits weren't the only ones. The Dutch. The Japanese. The Austro-Hungarian. The French. The Ottomans. The Russians and the USSR. And all the others. They invaded. They fought wars. They spent fortunes and lost countless lives as well as earning a fortune from various places. Death, injury and misery all round. And they couldn't hang on! What remains? What's so different about what you propose. You'll be even more violent and destructive and vicious than anyone in history and that'll-teach-'em?
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  39. #139  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The Brits weren't the only ones. The Dutch. The Japanese. The Austro-Hungarian. The French. The Ottomans. The Russians and the USSR. And all the others. They invaded. They fought wars. They spent fortunes and lost countless lives as well as earning a fortune from various places. Death, injury and misery all round. And they couldn't hang on! What remains? What's so different about what you propose. You'll be even more violent and destructive and vicious than anyone in history and that'll-teach-'em?

    The problem with all of these groups is they were attempting to dominate someone. To force them to do something for them. That meant they couldn't kill them off all the way, because that would mean there'd be nobody left to dominate. The groups they targeted knew this. They knew they just had to be determined and they'd win sooner or later when the Brits/Dutch/Russians... etc got tired of spending money on troops and getting nothing back for their money.

    MADD is different from that. The goal is for the other person/group to stop doing something. Whether the reason they stop is because they're finally intimidated, or because every last one of them has perished, the result is the same. America's history with native Americans demonstrates the effectiveness of that approach (as does Australia's history with the aborigine). If you wipe them out they don't come back. The trick is just to make sure you don't wipe someone out who could have been intimidated instead. Unfortunately some people can't be intimidated. Some people are too brave for their own good.
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