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Thread: IMF, world bank, criminal enterprises?

  1. #1 IMF, world bank, criminal enterprises? 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    Are the International monetary fund and world bank criminal enterprises?


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  3. #2  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Some people might say Yes, others might say No, I'll just say
    I thinks there's a matter of perspective and a matter of nuance

    The perspective aspect can be illustrated with this video
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEO3RWnHb4E
    Pirates and Emperors

    The Nuance is that we need to consider systemic problems with our current civilization (money, hierarchy, control of information, individualistic perspective) that we are so used to we dont perceive them as being problematic but natural(thats the way it is) that in effect lead to problems without it being a purposeful backroom cigar-smoking mafia-style decision. The illustration for this would be removing water from a ship with a hole in the hull (without realizing there a hole) or getting rid of organized crime without addressing the causes and thus having another kingpin fill the vacuum.

    I am convinced that most of the people in the IMF do not perceive themselves to be criminals, the same way most economists do not perceive themselves to be the "charlatans equivalent to the medieval priesthood supporting monarchy" that they are. The few that know they are bastards are probably as delusional as some Roman emperors may have been.


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  4. #3  
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    The objectives of these organisations always have to take on board the wishes and interests of world leaders and big banks. They don't always act in the best interest of the countries they paport to help. The ultimate aim of both organisations is economic stability that allows the banks to continue operating and making money.

    Whilst, for the sake of balance, it has to be said they are sometimes the only available help to countries who's economies get into real trouble it should also be noted that the conditions that usually accompany such help is not always advantagious to the long term health of the countries involved. In many cases there is a requirement made for countries to open up their markets to allow in foreign companies, companies that almost always end up exploiting the countries who are then often powerless to do anything about it.

    Many of the employees themselves don't really fully understand the way these organisations work or there true objectives, which leads in many cases to them genuinely believing that their actions are honest and in good faith.

    The is an old adage that springs to mind that seems apt; 'you don't get something for nothing'.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post

    I am convinced that most of the people in the IMF do not perceive themselves to be criminals, the same way most economists do not perceive themselves to be the "charlatans equivalent to the medieval priesthood supporting monarchy" that they are. The few that know they are bastards are probably as delusional as some Roman emperors may have been.
    It's fun when we occasionally agree on something. I remember the last econ class I took. It was a high level class (I had pursued it past the early classes in the vain hope that it would begin to be less speculative at the higher levels.) The professor was brilliant in the way he could take difficult derivative/integral problems, and find ways to rearrange the information into a solvable form, but..... I never once saw him question any of the assumptions those equations were built upon. It's like the math itself was just so interesting it engaged his full attention. The resulting answer can be ridiculous, but the math is accurate, so it "must be true".

    The main problem with Econ as a science, is you can only reliably test an economic theory at the small scale. The "micro-econ" level. If you try to test it on the large "macro-econ" level, you run into the problem that there are so many contributing factors, there is no way to reliably determine which one caused your experiment to succeed or fail. Worse, even if you get it right in one environment, investors will eventually find exploits and loopholes in the system you set up that change that system so your plan stops working in the new environment. All success is temporary success.

    Yet, the unreliable system is treated as the word of God by its supporters (anyone who anticipates being favored by the outcome.)
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  6. #5  
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    [QUOTE=kojax;327223]
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post


    The main problem with Econ as a science, is you can only reliably test an economic theory at the small scale. The "micro-econ" level. If you try to test it on the large "macro-econ" level, you run into the problem that there are so many contributing factors, there is no way to reliably determine which one caused your experiment to succeed or fail. Worse, even if you get it right in one environment, investors will eventually find exploits and loopholes in the system you set up that change that system so your plan stops working in the new environment. All success is temporary success.

    Kojax, you make a valid point about the bigger the scale the greater the complexity thus more things can go wrong and this makes the cause harder to identify, however there are still basic economic principles that can almost be treated as science since they have been tried and tested time and again and the outcome remains constant, take for example supply and demand, this works through out the world on every level and yes whilst there maybe other factors that take effect from time to time the basic principle always holds true. Just like in science there are basic laws to economics that enable us to understand how and why things happen.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    however there are still basic economic principles that can almost be treated as science since they have been tried and tested time and again and the outcome remains constant, take for example supply and demand, this works through out the world on every level and yes whilst there maybe other factors that take effect from time to time the basic principle always holds true. Just like in science there are basic laws to economics that enable us to understand how and why things happen.
    Yeah. That's an example of a rule you learn in Micro-economics. At the micro-econ level, it's quite scientific and highly reliable.

    But, once you get into macro econ, you've got currency values, fiscal policies, and different markets playing into each other in complicated ways. It's sort of like how you can use physics to model air flow in a laboratory, but it's nearly impossible to accurately predict the weather. As a society, we have the common sense not to take the weatherman/woman too seriously when he/she makes a prediction. If people knew more about economics, they'd treat economists the same way.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  8. #7  
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    It's sort of like how you can use physics to model air flow in a laboratory, but it's nearly impossible to accurately predict the weather.
    That just prompted a thought. Economic theory arguments suddenly look a bit like climate versus weather.

    You can't predict weather with any fine accuracy because it's just too hard to work with all the initial conditions that you either can't measure or get the information fast enough to make it useful. Whereas climate, as conventionally defined - minimum of 30 years of ' weather', is highly predictable.

    Not sure about the links to economics though. Need a day or two to let the notion simmer at the back of my mind.

    (I had pursued it past the early classes in the vain hope that it would begin to be less speculative at the higher levels.)
    I never got there. I still remember sitting in the lecture theatre, madly trying to copy down the "4 dimensional graph" the deluded lecturer was chalking up, and wondering what on earth I was doing there. That was more than 40 years ago. I've always had the fantasy that if you get past degree level, then past doctorate level, you might eventually get to do some economics that looked, even marginally, like the real world.

    Sort of like learning some fiendishly difficult musical instrument. You have to study for years and years to get scales, chords, fingering, volume under control. After years of dedicated hard graft, driving your family and neighbours to distraction, you finally get to play in public. Ta, da!! At which point you tentatively pick out " Three Blind Mice" - which anyone present could have done 10 years ago with a mouth organ.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  9. #8  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    long ago, when in the military, it dawned on me that we were "keeping the world safe for democracy" by supporting every dictator in sight.
    an oxymoron?
    a tie in to the free markets and the sledge hammer approach theat the IMF and World Bank follow?

    one case i looked at had one of these organizations giving a small country massive loans, which the local dictator and his family and friends promptly squirrelled away in foreign banks, then they moved on--leaving their poor countrymen to repay the loan, so the poor people of the country(even though they received not one penny of the loan) were forced to repay the $

    if the actions of the dictator were criminal, then the funding body was participating in a criminal enterprise?

    remember the tv series and movies about the I.M.F. (impossible missions force)

    it seems to me that:
    much as the word "democracy" is used to justify non democratic actions
    the phrase "free markets" is used to justify it's opposite

    ...........
    but then again'
    it is entirely possible that the comfort of the international trade provides would suffer without these (criminal?) organizations
    this computer i type on, this desk and chair inside this building, all have components from various countries all around the globe, from monarchies, democracies, republics, dictatorships, etc.etc. it seems that the political definitions matter little , it is trade that is the real king--emperor of all---
    so, the organs that make this happen are every bit as powerful as armies and weapons
    and, maybe, just maybe it is the desire to control debt that leads to the ultimate corruption of the symbolism of the facade of ...
    order within the chaos of the marketplace?
    shiva-the creator and destroyer of world(illusion)s ?

    have you seen(read of) any action on the parts of the IMF or World Bank that you personally deem criminal?
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  10. #9  
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    The problem is though even if we may take the veiw point that the IMF and World Bank have acted criminally, any other organisation that may be set up in there place would likely as not still be subject to the same pressures and manipulations that have plagued both the IMF and World Bank years. Also without at least one such organisation in place many countries would be left with absolutely no lender of last resort.

    The result is countries can be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea and have very little choice than to go along with conditions these organisation impose.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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