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Thread: Australia and New Zealand Remembers.

  1. #1 Australia and New Zealand Remembers. 
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Tomorrow is Anzac Day here in Australia and likewise in New Zealand. ( 25th April, every year ). There is a proclaimed Holiday so that the Nations can Remember those who fell on the beaches of the Dardenelles in 1915. Our Soldiers could not win this conflict, the Turks were too well led and held the better ground and supply routes. But Australians were blooded in this encounter, and their courage is remembered by the Nation tomorrow. Anzac Day can be reviewed by those Members interested on hundreds of Google Sites. westwind. Lest we Forget.


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  3. #2  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    So... whats the point of remembering again? That its easier to defend your country from invaders than to invade other people's land on another continent? I agree, invading other people's land does require more logistical efforts.
    Another thing to remember is that the people sent by each side are patriotic flag waving militarists who enable wars by taking part in Hierarchic organizations (influenced by greed and money, and using secrets and lies) and then want the rest to remember they died while killing people themselves. (one side is saying "what a shame he died or he could have killed a little more on the other side", -"yep what a shame alright, if only he could have killed 10 more of the other side", -"they'd be grateful, cause they'ed have more killers to remember", -"yep, lets remember", -"yep, Lest we forget", -"amen", and the other side is saying the exact same thing "its sad they died, but at least they killed a good fat load of those other human beings" )

    nonetheless, Happy Anzac Day.

    They should really make a "War is a Racket" Day or a Smedley Butler Day.


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  4. #3  
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    Happy Anzac Day.
    There's nothing happy about Anzac Day.

    And I think the Gallipoli consequences are a bit exceptional.

    Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours... you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land. They have become our sons as well.

    This inscription appears on the Kemal Atatürk Memorial, ANZAC Parade, Canberra.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  5. #4  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Dear icewendigo. We march to remember the horrors of conflict. We march because the innocents left our Family homes on a great adventure and failed to return. They believed they were fighting for freedom, to protect the Mother Country, to fulfill an obligation they falsly believed was owing to that Country. When you are indoctrinated from childhood to uphold the ideals of your Mother Country, in our case, England, it is an easy an honourable thing to do to repay a so called debt to that Country. And if we had not answered the call to arms, if we had isolated ourselves at that time, ( 1stWW), with our then population of around 4 million, how would have we found the dignity and strength to go on and build one of the great Democracies of the present time? There is more to War than Killing people. There has always been Alliances. There has always been obligations. Sure, people die because we fail to find an alternate solution to whatever the problem is. And whose fault is that? The Soldier with the Gun? This Thread was posted in the Politic Forum for a good reason. Australia as a Nation suffered the loss of a generation of fine young men, nearly every Family lost someone. We are wiser now. But we still connect to those young soldiers that didn't come home. Lest we Forget. westwind.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Ok, but if you remember the horrors of war, why then join a "Coalition of the Willing" and jump into another war on another continent, against Iraq, based on propaganda, lies and warmongering imperialist interest (Oil, Petro$)?
    Its not the "fault" of soldiers with a gun that are killing people, but you as a society send yet again soldiers with guns to a foreign land. Reading a book like "War is a Racket" might have allowed more people to understand some of the mechanisms that favor wars or at least be a little critical. The social mechanisms that lead to war remain unquestioned and unchallenged, analyzing these mechanism (such as hierarchy, money/profit motive, secrecy/propaganda, etc) and finding alternatives would be more productive for humanity than saying we remember the horror but well do it all over. What should not be forgotten is that in our current social system, the first casualty of war is the truth because the governments and media LIE, and that War is a Racket.

    If I had a choice Id rather have no (new) neat memorial quote because war was no longer part of human society (anymore than accusing humans of being witches and burning them alive) , than having many wars to come with each having a beautiful memorial monument with a moving quote. But that's just me.
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    But that's just me.
    No. It's all of us.

    If more past conflicts had ended with this kind of reconciliation - note that Turks now attend dawn services at Anzac Cove on Anzac Day along with all the Aussies and Kiwis - we'd all be better off.

    I remember my heart sinking when I heard a Serb/Croat/someone or other start raving on about some atrocity someone had committed 700 years ago. I knew it would be awful. And it was. It had never been allowed to become part of a shared history of mutual regret after horrible war, it is still constant fuel for further, even worse, atrocities. I'm not convinced these festering resentments won't be used to justify more such vile behaviour if the occasion for serious differences arises again.

    And they're not the only ones. Think South Asia, several regions of Africa, as well as the Middle East and half a dozen other obvious, long-running if not always 'hot', disputes around the world.

    And of course the gunrunners who now peddle frightful weapons of war as 'respectable' businesses as well as criminal gangs have no interest in any governments or individual leaders doing anything worthwhile on the diplomatic front. They are perfectly happy to make cliff-hanger problems turn into outright war if they can turn a profit doing it.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    For icewendigo. I may not agree entirely with your No. 5 Poste but I am prepared to lay down my Life for your right to make that poste. No educated or civilised person in normal circumstances wants war. That is unless they want what you have got. It has always been so. Winston Churchell was clever enough to be Prime Minister of England. And in his so called judgement it was a good idea to send Soldiers to the Dardenelles to force an entry to the Black Sea to capture Constantinople, and creep up behind the Germans, isolating Turkey from the Russian Back Door. But Churchells judgement amounted to pig-headiness, he was thinking in the British Empire mode, fire a few broadsides and everyone will run and hide. And it will not matter if a few Colonials are sacrificed, it'll probably do them good. Well, it did do us good. We learnt a lesson, and when the 2nd WW. came along, we pulled our Divisions back from Africa and Crete to fight the Japanese who were threatening our Homeland. Churchell didn't like that and he never forgave us. He was prepared to let the Japenese take Australia with the so called promise that when he had dealt with European problems he would then come and clean up the Japanese. Who saved Australia? America. No matter what the Politics, the obvious reasons, America saved our Democracy. So we are in the Co-ilition of the Willing, we do not forget what we owe America, for whatever reasons, good or bad, Australians will repay where they can. Maybe the day will come when America might be needed again in Australia in the defence of free speech. I hope not. But if you can deter would be exploiters by showing that you have powerful friends is that not a good thing? Australians are not Warmongers. But they are red-blooded. They are Human. Until a way is found to resolve differences and aggressive thinking by tyrants full of self importance and ambition we will always be in danger of open conflict, as has been the case throughout History. westwind.
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    westwind, don't be too kind to Churchill. He did an outstanding job in WW2, but we can blame him largely for the Dardanelles fiasco.

    He was in charge of Admiralty just before WW1 and British shipyards were building a couple of ships for the Turks - which had been paid for by public subscription, not by the government directly. Did he cultivate positive relationships with a neutral country which could go either way in a future conflict which looked to be more and more likely? Did he hell! He commandeered those ships - basically stealing from every shopkeeper and peasant and schoolchild in Turkey who'd scrimped and scraped to pay for the things.

    So guess who they didn't side with when the inevitable conflict broke out. So instead of a possible ally (or neutral country) in a critical area, we got a committed, resentful enemy. My suspicion is that if the ships had been delivered as promised they would have been an ally. Gratitude and all that. Way to go, Winston.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I remember my heart sinking when I heard a Serb/Croat/someone or other start raving on about some atrocity someone had committed 700 years ago. I knew it would be awful. And it was. It had never been allowed to become part of a shared history of mutual regret after horrible war, it is still constant fuel for further, even worse, atrocities. I'm not convinced these festering resentments won't be used to justify more such vile behaviour if the occasion for serious differences arises again.

    .
    That's a good way of putting it. The holiday is kind of a collective funeral for us to remember the lost, and hopefully in a way where the focus is on them instead of on how angry we are at the ones who fired the bullets that killed them.

    It's easy to forget how successful this approach has been, so now countries like Japan and Germany can be close allies with the same people that previously bombed their cities, instead of spending every waking minute trying to figure out a way to avenge it.

    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    O Reading a book like "War is a Racket" might have allowed more people to understand some of the mechanisms that favor wars or at least be a little critical.
    You appear to put an awful lot of faith in just one book.

    The social mechanisms that lead to war remain unquestioned and unchallenged, analyzing these mechanism (such as hierarchy, money/profit motive, secrecy/propaganda, etc) and finding alternatives would be more productive for humanity than saying we remember the horror but well do it all over. What should not be forgotten is that in our current social system, the first casualty of war is the truth because the governments and media LIE, and that War is a Racket.

    If I had a choice Id rather have no (new) neat memorial quote because war was no longer part of human society (anymore than accusing humans of being witches and burning them alive) , than having many wars to come with each having a beautiful memorial monument with a moving quote. But that's just me.
    How would it play out if we focused everything on resentment toward the war? Would that not likely lead us to revive it, because realistically the most likely result of our analysis would be to (somewhat unobjectively) arrive at the conclusion that "they started it" followed soon by "those bastards!!!", and then by "let's end this problem once and for all!!!"

    Looking at the profiteers who manipulated everyone is difficult because indirectly most of us take part in it somehow. Even if one doesn't work in the defense industry them self, there's the matter of cheap imports from countries that are too afraid of us to charge full price, or the devils' alliances we make with brutal dictators to balance our position against Russia and China, or the simple matter of knowing what would happen if the oppressed people of the third world became empowered and began competing with first worlders for the world's oil, iron, .... etc. It wouldn't spread very far before it became scarce. It's not just the defense industry.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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