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Thread: What do you think about GŁnter Grass and Israel?

  1. #1 What do you think about GŁnter Grass and Israel? 
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    At first I will introduce Mr. Grass for those of you who've never heard before of him.

    GŁnther Grass is a german author, he won the Literature Nobel Price with his book "the tin drumm" which is about the german nazi time, at the ending of the book a guy is suffocating with a Nazi Button, which he is trying to hide it front of the russian troops coming. So he is quite famous and popular in Germany in spite of, he didn't admit for a long time that he was in the "Waffen SS" which had been a very cruel unit of the german army (to be fair I have to admit that he was 15 when he joined it). More: GŁnter Grass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now Mr Grass wrote a poem "what must be said" (What Must Be Said - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) where he condemns a german weapon delivery to israel, this weapons can be just used "offensive" (or preventive just how you like) and "Why do I only say now, aged and with my last ink: the atomic power Israel is endangering the already fragile world peace?" as reaction the "democratic" state israel has declared him to a person which won't be let in their state.


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  3. #2  
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    I think he's made the same mistake as any white person in the USA who criticizes a black person. There is a lot wrong with Israel, but such criticisms, even if accurate, are unlikely to be well received if they come from a German suspected of holding Nazi sympathies. It may be the right message, and he's simply the wrong man to be presenting it, or..... it could a skewed message presented by a fanatic. Who knows for sure?

    Anyway, the Russian occupation of Berlin was particularly brutal. There's nothing the least historically inaccurate about a person saying so.It's also important to remember that many Germans, even members of the Nazi party, were victimized by Hitler in a way that's kind of hard to understand, but very real. Not all of them were racists in their own right, just scared simpletons trying to survive.

    If we leave their story unexamined, we may miss out on one of the most crucial elements of what caused the tragedy to begin with, and how to avoid repeating it.


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  4. #3  
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    The old Nazi must be pleased to see anti-Semitism on the rise again.
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  5. #4  
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    I think kojax hit many things very good

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The old Nazi must be pleased to see anti-Semitism on the rise again.
    so everybody who is criticizing israel's politic is a Nazi and Antisemit? Maybe it was said not certain enough that in his books the Nazis are allways something very bad

    Though the main question maybe isn't it somebody allowed to criticize things because he had the wrong ancestors?
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    The nuclear subs are defensive, and designed to survive a first strike. If you planned to launch a first strike, you could do it from land.

    If someone looks at the situation in the middle east, where Iran and many of Israels neigbors publicly state that they want to wipe Israel off the map, I think it would be hard to call Israel the aggressor. That is, unless one has a certain bias.

    You asked for opinons. That's mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    The nuclear subs are defensive, and designed to survive a first strike. If you planned to launch a first strike, you could do it from land.

    If someone looks at the situation in the middle east, where Iran and many of Israels neigbors publicly state that they want to wipe Israel off the map, I think it would be hard to call Israel the aggressor. That is, unless one has a certain bias.

    You asked for opinons. That's mine.
    ok... hard to argue against this... I just could say Israel has done everything "right" the last 10-20 years that the situation is like that. And there are also the arabian states which are not so friendly to the persian Iran so Iran is also surrounded by enemies especially when Syria is falling the rebells there are financed by the arabian states, so what if Iran also would argue like that? Would you say they haven't the right to have nuclear weapons, don't you?
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  8. #7  
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    So... ...Israel is preventing someone from entering because he wrote a Poem they didnt like?
    (Israeli regime has killed humanitarian workers in international waters, committed war crimes, probably killed babies with phosphorous bombs, and murdered UN observers.... )
    That's like asking what I think about a serial killer not granting his seat to an old lady standing in a bus.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    So... ...Israel is preventing someone from entering because he wrote a Poem they didnt like?
    Netanjahu called him even an Nazi and antisemit, they also demanded to de-acknowledge his nobel prize thats completly out of the range of being apporpriate

    Maybe that the israelis are right to defend their home like they did (but I don't think that they had been dealing with their neighbors adequate in the last 10 years) but to be very clear it was more the israelian reaction which made me think they are totally unable in dealing with criticism, aren't they? They often claim to be the only working democracy in the middle and near east, if this state is reacting like this I wouldn't call it a free state and then I'm asking myself "why are we supporting them?"
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  10. #9  
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    Israel is a democracy surrounded by dysfunctional states, several of which have vowed to destroy it and at least one of which is developing a nuclear weapon. To say
    the atomic power Israel is endangering the already fragile world peace
    is a ridiculous distortion of the real situation.
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  11. #10  
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    Nobody's forcing them to hold onto Gaza and the West Bank. If anything it's a bad tactical move on their part, because it gives them a huge angry population of potential insurgents within their own borders (and a very easy place for enemy spies to hide out.)

    If Israel's real concern was safety (rather than the petty desire to dominate over others), they could easily have it, with near zero chance of losing. But then who would they abuse? Who's children would they gun down in the street? Life would get boring for them. Poor guys.
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  12. #11  
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    Israel does not hold Gaza and the portions of the West Bank it controls hold about 4% of the West Bank Palestinian population.
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    Oh. Ok. Let me change "hold onto" to "lay claim to". They could forfeit that claim, since the sole basis of the claim is a battle field victory, and we know those aren't valid in the modern (post nuclear) world.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
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    Unfortunately for you, facts are the basis for reasoned discussion and there are none in your post #10.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury View Post
    Unfortunately for you, facts are the basis for reasoned discussion and there are none in your post #10.
    Really? Ok, let's go back through that post:

    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    Nobody's forcing them to hold onto Gaza and the West Bank.
    So who's forcing them?

    If anything it's a bad tactical move on their part, because it gives them a huge angry population of potential insurgents within their own borders (and a very easy place for enemy spies to hide out.)
    Are you contending that holding Gaza and the West Bank doesn't give them a huge angry population of potential insurgents within their own borders?

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what it means for them to hold that territory. Are they holding it or not? If they're holding it, does that not make it count as "within their own borders"?

    Or.... are you contending that the Palestinian population living in those territories is not angry, and not willing to become insurgents?

    If Israel's real concern was safety (rather than the petty desire to dominate over others), they could easily have it, with near zero chance of losing. But then who would they abuse? Who's children would they gun down in the street? Life would get boring for them. Poor guys.
    Israel is in almost absolute zero danger of ever being invaded formally again. None of their neighbors have the technological sophistication to launch a meaningful military assault, at least not one that wouldn't be easily beaten back and annihilated. Saddam's military was better than any of theirs and it went down with barely so much as a whimper.

    Their only big security issue is insurgents, but if Palestine were its own country, that would be a matter of international diplomacy, giving a toolbox of diplomatic options they don't have right now. The only conclusion I can draw is that they don't want that toolbox, because they don't want peace. (And maybe because they're hoping to push the Palis out.)
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    Are you contending that holding Gaza and the West Bank doesn't give them a huge angry population of potential insurgents within their own borders?
    The huge angry population is a given. It is more or less independent of what the Israelis do, short of just marching into the sea.
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  17. #16  
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    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what it means for them to hold that territory. Are they holding it or not?
    Let me try to clarify for you: the words "not holding" mean : not holding. Do you understand that? They are not holding Gaza and they are holding West Bank territoty that includes a small fraction of the total Palestinian population. What is unclear about that?
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury View Post
    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what it means for them to hold that territory. Are they holding it or not?
    Let me try to clarify for you: the words "not holding" mean : not holding. Do you understand that? They are not holding Gaza and they are holding West Bank territoty that includes a small fraction of the total Palestinian population. What is unclear about that?
    Oh. Sorry about that. It seems I haven't been keeping up. I see now that they left in 2005. That's not bad progress, actually.

    Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 1967, Israel occupied it following the Six-Day War. Pursuant to the Oslo Accords signed between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization in 1993, the Palestinian Authority was set up as an interim administrative body to govern Palestinian population centres, with Israel maintaining control of Gaza Strip's airspace, all but one of its land borders and territorial waters, until a final agreement could be reached. As agreement remained elusive, Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in 2005.
    The Gaza Strip is one of the territorial units forming the Palestinian territories.[5][6][7][8] Since July 2007, following the 2006 Palestinian legislative electionand the following Battle of Gaza, Hamas has functioned as the de-facto ruler in the Gaza Strip, forming an alternative Hamas Government in Gaza.


    That's actually pretty good. There's not much to criticize if they're on the road to letting go. Gaza is gone, the West Bank is on its way out. Maybe once the process is complete they will make Palestine its own country after all. I like the strength of the measures they've employed.

    Israel's unilateral disengagement plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Those Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[1] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.[2] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    Are you contending that holding Gaza and the West Bank doesn't give them a huge angry population of potential insurgents within their own borders?
    The huge angry population is a given. It is more or less independent of what the Israelis do, short of just marching into the sea.


    Yeah. It definitely is a given. But the question of whether those angry people will reside within their own borders or outside those borders is a very important question for international diplomacy when it comes time to take action. The more severed their political connection is with that group, the easier the problem will be to manage. If Palestine becomes its own nation, and then attempts to provoke an international conflict, Israel will be in a diplomatic position where they're free to take the kid gloves off. (Instead of being accused of brutalizing their own citizens.)

    That conflict is probably inevitable. It seems Gaza has the 7th highest population growth rate in the world. With that kind of population increase, for an area that can't hardly even support what population it has, the sheer misery will create tension. I certainly don't think it's Israel's fault that those people are so stupid and backwards, and their skill at arithmetic so poor that they can't count well enough to see the value of smaller family sizes. I'm merely hoping Israel is smart enough position themselves politically in a way where they'll be able to deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki Gaza link above
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki Gaza link above
    The population is predominantly Sunni Muslim. With a yearly growth rate of about 3.2%, the Gaza strip has the 7th highest population growth rate in the world.

    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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