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View Poll Results: do you think after watching the video that masses have wisdom ?

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Thread: the masses have no wisdom

  1. #1 the masses have no wisdom 
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    wisdom of the masses is the very base of democracy. but do masses really have any wisdom?

    watch this video:



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  3. #2  
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    I am not going to watch that because (a) it is on YouTube and (b) the caption was written by someone who is both ignorant and illiterate.


    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  4. #3 Re: the masses have no wisdom 
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    Democracy as a description of culural organisation is inadequate. A better understanding can be obtained by reference back to the early 20th century Sunday School Picnics. Rasberry Cordial was added to water to provide a drink for the children. If there were masses of children and very little cordial than the prepared beverage was very weak. Sure everybody got a drink, but the essence was missing and the result unsatisfactory. Moral, the more passengers the slower the train. westwind.
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  5. #4 the masses have no 
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    A short summary of a childhood experience. Sunday School Picnics were good fun, think 1940/1960. Raspberry cordial was the go.Cordial added to cold water made up a pleasant drink. Lots of children, lots of cold water, very little cordial, drink not so stimulating. So the masses were subjected to weak raspberry cordial. Masses unhappy, complained bitterly. Few children, lots of cordial, contented children. Contented people not likely to assassanate wise Leaders. westwind.
    Last edited by westwind; February 5th, 2012 at 12:07 AM. Reason: not completed.
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  6. #5  
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    Stupid vid with obvious errors, such as the "masses of Isreal" killing Jesus, which even if you believe the bible didn't happen. Globilization which has I guess coincidently been alongside dramatic improvements to humanity by nearly every measure.

    A basic point of the American revolution by people such as Jefferson, was representative government would only work among the educated.
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  7. #6  
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    sounds that folks are very well BRAINWASHED by our media. to them my vid is obviously a stupid one.

    how do you know that masses of israel did not kill jesus. it is a well known fact. or just you scientists don't want to believe it.


    and globalization BETTERS our lives !!!!!! really!!!

    thats why some people say that " bring our jobs back home". obviously to some folks globalization have entirely different meaning.

    globalization increases competition, job loss, insecurity everywhere. this is the best example of the ignorence of masses.

    well, BRAINWASHED fools. if you think the video is stupid, then wait for futher disasters.
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  8. #7  
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    how do you know that masses of israel did not kill jesus. it is a well known fact. or just you scientists don't want to believe it.
    To address your 2nd point first, there isn't much credible evidence that he even existed...but even if he did as told by the bible, the masses didn't kill him the Romans did.

    As for globilization I was pointing out the amount of war, desease, famine, infant mortality ALL have gone down dramatically, while average lifespan has gone up as we've globalized.

    It has nothing to with the media, or being brainwashed...it has to do with the fact and seeing the world with a better perspective than every glass is half empty. We've some huge daunting problems that need to be fixed, but things are much better than even a generation ago, and globalization has a lot to do with it.
    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/han...ever_seen.html
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  9. #8  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    As this is a discussion forum, I'm not sure why you feel the need to resort to insulting people who have a different point of view instead of, you know, DISCUSSING your opinions.

    You claim (in the only bit of the video I can see) that Hypatia was the only female philosopher of the Hellenic era. Well what about:

    - Arete of Cyrene
    - Axiothea of Phlius
    - Diotima of MantineaBatis of Lampsacus
    - Hipparchia of Maroneia
    - Lastheneia of Mantinea
    - Leontion
    - Nicarete of Megara
    - Perictione
    - Phintys
    - Theano
    - Themista of Lampsacus
    - Timycha
    (and there are plenty more)

    This bias and/or lack of knowledge does not inspire me to think that the rest of the video is worth watching. Instead it makes me assume it will be the same sort of dreck as 99.99% of videos on YouTube.

    As for the illiterate comment, I'll give you benefit of the doubt and assume English is not your first language. But you might want to get a native speaker to proof read your text before posting it for millions to admire.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    As this is a discussion forum, I'm not sure why you feel the need to resort to insulting people who have a different point of view instead of, you know, DISCUSSING your opinions.

    You claim (in the only bit of the video I can see) that Hypatia was the only female philosopher of the Hellenic era. Well what about:

    - Arete of Cyrene
    - Axiothea of Phlius
    - Diotima of MantineaBatis of Lampsacus
    - Hipparchia of Maroneia
    - Lastheneia of Mantinea
    - Leontion
    - Nicarete of Megara
    - Perictione
    - Phintys
    - Theano
    - Themista of Lampsacus
    - Timycha
    (and there are plenty more)

    This bias and/or lack of knowledge does not inspire me to think that the rest of the video is worth watching. Instead it makes me assume it will be the same sort of dreck as 99.99% of videos on YouTube.

    As for the illiterate comment, I'll give you benefit of the doubt and assume English is not your first language. But you might want to get a native speaker to proof read your text before posting it for millions to admire.
    the point is not how many female philosophers are there in Hellenistic era but the point is that masses of Alexandria killed her labeling her as witch. she was quite young when she got killed. if the masses have any wisdom, they will realize what they are doing. they killed an eminent female mathematician and philosopher believing that she is a witch. this is the wisdom of masses.

    another point which i did not state in the video is that masses of Alexandria accept Christianity not knowing its true nature. such misunderstanding only shows that masses have no wisdom.

    you did not watch my video, how do you know it is worthless?

    yes you guess right English is not my first language but that does not prevent me from expressing my ideas. and you better consult with a philosopher or scientist before dismissing my video. you have no understanding of evidence.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    how do you know that masses of israel did not kill jesus. it is a well known fact. or just you scientists don't want to believe it.
    As for globilization I was pointing out the amount of war, desease, famine, infant mortality ALL have gone down dramatically, while average lifespan has gone up as we've globalized.

    l
    really!! war, disease, femines, infant mortality all have gone down or rise up?

    well after globalization environmental pollution increases causing global warming. war for natural resource increases causing iraq, afganistan war. islamic terrorism increases because we let terrorist stay within our country. competition, job loss, depression, crimes all increses ten fold than the past.

    i don't need to explain more.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx200 View Post
    the point is not how many female philosophers are there in Hellenistic era but the point is that masses of Alexandria killed her labeling her as witch.
    No, the point is: the very first claim in your video is UNTRUE. If you don't correct this then you move from being merely uninformed to being dishonest.

    This is not making a good case for watching the rest of the video which is, I assume, equally full of errors and untruths.

    yes you guess right English is not my first language but that does not prevent me from expressing my ideas.
    Quite right. I just think you might want to consider having it proof-read before publishing it.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx200 View Post
    i don't need to explain more.
    No, but you could do with looki ng at some objective evidence rather than just relying on your subjective opinions. Which are wrong.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  14. #13  
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    i don't need to explain more.
    Actually you do. Since is a science forum, statements are expected to be backed up by those annoying things called data, facts and reason. If not, you won't be taken seriously.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    how do you know that masses of israel did not kill jesus. it is a well known fact. or just you scientists don't want to believe it.
    To address your 2nd point first, there isn't much credible evidence that he even existed...but even if he did as told by the bible, the masses didn't kill him the Romans did.
    Actually..... according to the bible account, Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor to whom the decision fell wanted to spare Jesus Christ against the San Hedrin's wishes (the San Hedrin being the Jewish governors under him). He even went so far as to offer the people a choice between him releasing a known murderer called Barabbas, or Jesus Christ, assuming they would choose Jesus Christ (who was not known to have committed any murders). The people gathered chose to see Barabbas released, effectively forcing Pilate to put Jesus to death. At which point, he brought a basin of water and symbolicaly washed his hands of the matter in front of them.

    So, the execution was decided by the Romans only in a technical sense.

    It's not unlikely that Jesus Christ existed, given that there were so many other pretender to "Messiah-hood" running around at the time. It's just unlikely he was quite so impressive as the bible makes him out to be.


    As for globilization I was pointing out the amount of war, desease, famine, infant mortality ALL have gone down dramatically, while average lifespan has gone up as we've globalized.

    It has nothing to with the media, or being brainwashed...it has to do with the fact and seeing the world with a better perspective than every glass is half empty. We've some huge daunting problems that need to be fixed, but things are much better than even a generation ago, and globalization has a lot to do with it.
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    "Should" and "does" are two things that ought never to be compared side by side and given equal weight. In science, "does" is supposed to have the final word. "Should" is the part we scrap or rethink when "does" doesn't match "should", never the other way around.
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    That is one intepretation of events. And I would call it hardly technical when a man is executive a strong Roman leader of more than 20 years(at that point), for violating among the most serious of Roman laws (pronouncing yourself king--instead of a Roman), and actually physically executed by Romans. But it's probably not worth quibbling over unverifyable events--but honestly the intepretations of the differing scriptual acconts don't make a whole lot of sence.

    --
    Yes, I don't know what the idea that things are getting much worse comes from either--perhaps because it lays the groundwork, or softening our minds and triggering emotional response that allow explioting others into a particular way of thinking or buying something.

    Globilization bring many benifits including shared wealth and connection of economies which make wars less likely, decreased misery because people arent' as tiid the vageries of the weather, the ability to sell your products to anywhere in the world and build you own wealth, a huge fostering of aid and expertise from beyond your borders--such as the near elimination of polio from India the past couple years.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    Actually..... according to the bible account, Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor to whom the decision fell wanted to spare Jesus Christ against the San Hedrin's wishes (the San Hedrin being the Jewish governors under him). He even went so far as to offer the people a choice between him releasing a known murderer called Barabbas, or Jesus Christ, assuming they would choose Jesus Christ (who was not known to have committed any murders). The people gathered chose to see Barabbas released, effectively forcing Pilate to put Jesus to death. At which point, he brought a basin of water and symbolicaly washed his hands of the matter in front of them.


    my friend kojax has just posted another solid case which shows that masses don't have any wisdom. the people when given a choice between Jesus and Barabbas, chose Barabbas, a very well known murderer instead of a wise man Jesus who has not committed a single murder.

    i think it is not only stupidity but also lack of judgement on the part of the people.[the masses]

    again it is proved that masses have no wisdom.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx200 View Post
    my friend kojax has just posted another solid case which shows that masses don't have any wisdom. the people when given a choice between Jesus and Barabbas, chose Barabbas, a very well known murderer instead of a wise man Jesus who has not committed a single murder.

    i think it is not only stupidity but also lack of judgement on the part of the people.[the masses]

    again it is proved that masses have no wisdom.
    On the other hand, it may be you that is wrong (I know you don't want to consider that). After all, if JC hadn't arranged to get himself killed like that then it is unlikely that the religion would have caught on in the same way. Obviously a marketing genius.

    Also: Wisdom of the crowd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Would you argue then that the current crop of suicide bombers are "marketing geniuses"?

    Regardless of the merits of the video, the OP brings up a legitimate point- for a good old-fashioned description of instances throughout history of mass folly through the ages up to 1841, consult "Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds", by Charles Mackay, L.L.D. There have been a few since 1841, perhaps you will be more readily able to identify them after studying John Law, the tulipomania, witch hunts, the Crusades, which are evidently not over, &c.
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    This entire thread is pointless because it consists of anecdotes, which prove nothing. In order to properly compare mass actions against individual actions, you would have to have some systematic method of comparison. Crazy actions by individuals would not usually be notable historically because they would not have as far-reaching effects. This does not mean individual actions are any wiser than actions of masses.

    Are democracies any less wise than other forms of government? Well, we have a lot of examples of dictatorships, which usually turn out badly. Of course, you will probably blame that on the masses who followed the dictator, wouldn't you?
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  21. #20  
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    The premise is simplistic

    Its like asking ~ is "Liquid" poisonous or healthy? ~ and then showing a vial containing liquid composed of cyanide laced toluene, ta da! look therefore "Liquid" is poisonous.

    ...dont forget, the masses have no wisdom because 200,000 years ago many cavemen were afraid of fire and thunder (and did not understand that a lot of their behavioral tendencies and knowledge templates was related to the social and natural environment establishing neural patterns in their brains).


    (Ideally imo we would seek to grant free education that is open accessible and participatory, eliminate the need for money and needless hierarchic social structures, make organisations transparent and open up / prevent control of media/information)
    Last edited by icewendigo; February 6th, 2012 at 02:47 PM.
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  22. #21  
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    The masses have wisdom, but greed prevents its use. Humanity as a race sells its souil at every opportunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    The masses have wisdom, but greed prevents its use. Humanity as a race sells its souil at every opportunity.
    Thank you, Mr. Kaczynski.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    The premise is simplistic

    Its like asking ~ is "Liquid" is poisonous or healthy? ~ and then showing a vial containing liquid composed of cyanide laced toluene, ta da! look therefore "Liquid" is poisonous.
    It is worse than that. Given the obvious bias and distortion in the video, it is more like showing a vial of water and saying you could drown in this and therefore "liquid" is dangerous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    The premise is simplistic

    Its like asking ~ is "Liquid" is poisonous or healthy? ~ and then showing a vial containing liquid composed of cyanide laced toluene, ta da! look therefore "Liquid" is poisonous.
    It is worse than that. Given the obvious bias and distortion in the video, it is more like showing a vial of water and saying you could drown in this and therefore "liquid" is dangerous.
    Yes- and that is true, it is possible to drown in any liquid. I prefer beer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx200 View Post
    wisdom of the masses is the very base of democracy. but do masses really have any wisdom?
    As I understand it, it is less a matter of "wisdom" than "consent". We elect representatives to govern on the assumption, usually mistaken, alas, that they possess some degree of wisdom.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Angler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    The masses have wisdom, but greed prevents its use. Humanity as a race sells its souil at every opportunity.
    Thank you, Mr. Kaczynski.
    Lech or Ted? Did the unipresident and his twin brother really practice democracy in Poland? And is that why their airplane crashed? After all, true democracies generally elect socialist governments instead of Capitalist Pigs. Did Ted really uni or wasi a twosi or threesi? So many stupid questions to muddle the mud. So many blahblahs. Why do we bother? Because no one really cares? Perhaps. Than again .. wuzi wuza wee wonka, willi. What's to care about besides going to the movies.

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    Last edited by Aristarchus in Exile; February 6th, 2012 at 05:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    This entire thread is pointless because it consists of anecdotes, which prove nothing. In order to properly compare mass actions against individual actions, you would have to have some systematic method of comparison. Crazy actions by individuals would not usually be notable historically because they would not have as far-reaching effects. This does not mean individual actions are any wiser than actions of masses.

    Are democracies any less wise than other forms of government? Well, we have a lot of examples of dictatorships, which usually turn out badly. Of course, you will probably blame that on the masses who followed the dictator, wouldn't you?
    Every time a deomcratic nation elects a socialist government the capitalist nations declare the democratically elected government a dictatorship and bomb it to death .. so many examples to choose from in every quarter of the map. If Canada were to elect a majority New Democratic Party government the U.S. would send their tanks and planes up here so fast we couldn't say goodby to our oil, gas, water, wheat, wood, etc before they disappeared south .. of course the pretext would be protection from the Chinese, to whom Canada sells a LOT of its goods. History is a good teacher, but propanganda drowns history. The biggest gun rules, and the biggest gun is always held by the greediest and most heartless individual and nation. So now we have a few biggest guns who can destroy the planet at the push of a button .. what now besides bend over, kiss your butt goodbye. Oh well, you never shoulda started smoking in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    This entire thread is pointless because it consists of anecdotes, which prove nothing. In order to properly compare mass actions against individual actions, you would have to have some systematic method of comparison. Crazy actions by individuals would not usually be notable historically because they would not have as far-reaching effects. This does not mean individual actions are any wiser than actions of masses.

    Are democracies any less wise than other forms of government? Well, we have a lot of examples of dictatorships, which usually turn out badly. Of course, you will probably blame that on the masses who followed the dictator, wouldn't you?
    Every time a deomcratic nation elects a socialist government the capitalist nations declare the democratically elected government a dictatorship and bomb it to death .. so many examples to choose from in every quarter of the map. If Canada were to elect a majority New Democratic Party government the U.S. would send their tanks and planes up here so fast we couldn't say goodby to our oil, gas, water, wheat, wood, etc before they disappeared south .. of course the pretext would be protection from the Chinese, to whom Canada sells a LOT of its goods. History is a good teacher, but propanganda drowns history. The biggest gun rules, and the biggest gun is always held by the greediest and most heartless individual and nation. So now we have a few biggest guns who can destroy the planet at the push of a button .. what now besides bend over, kiss your butt goodbye. Oh well, you never shoulda started smoking in the first place.
    Is this rant somehow related to the topic of discussion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    This entire thread is pointless because it consists of anecdotes, which prove nothing. In order to properly compare mass actions against individual actions, you would have to have some systematic method of comparison. Crazy actions by individuals would not usually be notable historically because they would not have as far-reaching effects. This does not mean individual actions are any wiser than actions of masses.

    Are democracies any less wise than other forms of government? Well, we have a lot of examples of dictatorships, which usually turn out badly. Of course, you will probably blame that on the masses who followed the dictator, wouldn't you?
    Every time a deomcratic nation elects a socialist government the capitalist nations declare the democratically elected government a dictatorship and bomb it to death .. so many examples to choose from in every quarter of the map. If Canada were to elect a majority New Democratic Party government the U.S. would send their tanks and planes up here so fast we couldn't say goodby to our oil, gas, water, wheat, wood, etc before they disappeared south .. of course the pretext would be protection from the Chinese, to whom Canada sells a LOT of its goods. History is a good teacher, but propanganda drowns history. The biggest gun rules, and the biggest gun is always held by the greediest and most heartless individual and nation. So now we have a few biggest guns who can destroy the planet at the push of a button .. what now besides bend over, kiss your butt goodbye. Oh well, you never shoulda started smoking in the first place.
    Is this rant somehow related to the topic of discussion?
    "Masses" in politics are the bodies of the electorate, on in the case of modern democracy. the massed corpses laid out according to party favours. "Masses" in physics is the tightness of the particles .. the weight in relation to dimension .. the density .. "a quantitative measure of an object's resistance to the change of its speed" although that doesn't seem to take shape of the object in relation to the medium it is moving through. If, Harold, you think my rant is off topic I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "politics," that being the category (Wisdom of masses in relation to demo crazy) of the group of threads this thread is one of. Of course, if you can think of one example of politics not being ruled by the biggest gun, please clarify my murkiness. By the way, are you the Harold of Moped Army? If so, "Free the Subject Line."
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    Dear Arthur Angler. Degrees of Wisdom. I belong to the masses. I have been given the gift of being able to discern intelligence in others. Where intelligence is coupled with humanity and compassion then this is the leader that we must Elect, to become our representative. However, if this elected leader rocks the boat of the status quo, and looks like threatining power priviledge and wealth, then the Powerful Media with their shareholders intervene in proceedings. The Masses are led away from this intelligent leader and succome to propaganda. westwind.
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    Despite my criticism of how poorly his case is present, I do agree to some extent with the OP's thesis.

    An artist (Whistler, perhaps) said something along the lines of, "if more than a handful of people like a painting then burn it because it is worthless."

    I am not a big fan of democracy and, in reality, it is always limited for very good reasons. We take the major decisions away from the population and put them in the hands of experts. For example, we let judges decide guilt or innocence and set sentences. If this was put up for a popular vote, then trials could be a lot quicker ("well, the police wouldn't have arrested him if he hadn't done it") and sentencing more brutal ("hangings too good for the likes of him").

    The financial crisis in Greece is, in part, due to the government just giving the population what they want with no attempt at fiscal responsibility.

    But, as others have noted, it's not as simple or black and white as the OP suggests.
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    I think you'd find referendum states in similar troubles often the direct votes resulting in unaffordable laws or unconstitutional ones. Representative governments seem to work better, especially as our societies gets more complex.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
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  34. #33  
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    History repeates itself

    maybe when we were hunter gathers humans were not doing so much crazy stuff

    we are an animal that was made to live in a group of 8 to 12


    but then we learned how to plant seeds, and then humans were able to live in larger groups, and different kinds of groups.

    maybe the reason humans are so crazy, is that we are no longer living in the familly groups that we evolved to live in


    when we were an animal like homo erectus, maybe 1 million years ago, we were probabilly living in the same size 8 to 12 group of members.


    We are a homo genus animal that has been living in groups of 8-12, for 1 million years.

    when an animals evolutionary line lives in the same size, 8-12 group for 1 million years, this may become part of what that animal is, and the animal could be effected if it is forced to live in a diferent sized group.


    maybe in a way we are a broken pack of animals.


    But still all the actions in the video, seem to be behavior like chimps, an animal (that some scientists suggest) that we will behave a lot like.

    So maybe the behavior in the video is more natural, than (our) sub-conscience minds believe.

    The scary thing is, history repeates itself.


    we have been living in our same sized groups for thousands of years, and these crazy human behaviors keep happening.


    If this behavior has not changed, in the last many many many 1000s of years, why would it change now?

    If a political party like the American GreenParty would ever come to total power in a strong country,

    maybe they could take all that kind of crazyness out of the world.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    History repeates itself

    maybe when we were hunter gathers humans were not doing so much crazy stuff
    Have you ever read or studied anything about hunting-gathering societies. They tend to be very superstitious, often warlike. Would you consider cannibalism or headhunting to be "crazy stuff"?
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  36. #35  
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    Also usually violent, with high percentage of men being killed in petty squabbles about women, canoes...you name it.

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    This "green party," most be pretty amazing if it can change human nature.
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  37. #36  
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    I'm imagining Victorian hunter-gatherers wearing stovepipe hats going "Pip-pip!" and "Cheerio!" to one another. And then "Say what, good fellow? The Gauls are tossing seeds into the ground? Why that'll drive them mad!"
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