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Thread: Why is the US against the Palestinians bringing their statehood case to the UN this month?

  1. #1 Why is the US against the Palestinians bringing their statehood case to the UN this month? 
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    The best "explanation" I can find is not very helpful. US government officials state that the "only path to Palestinian statehood is direct negotiations with Israel." But those negotiations haven't gone anywhere in 40 years. I just don't see why the US is going to use its veto power this month. Israel is, of course, against it. But why is the US (and most likely England and France) against this UN bid for statehood?

    Here is some background on the proposed UN vote:

    Full recognition requires the approval of the Security Council, and the United States has already said it would veto any such resolution.The PA could instead pursue "non-member observer state" status, which would give it standing on par with the Vatican. That would require only a two-thirds vote in the General Assembly.PA officials have also discussed submitting multiple requests for full recognition - forcing the US to keep vetoing them. The PA is planning a series of marches and rallies, in the West Bank and internationally, to coincide with the vote. Abbas is expected to address the General Assembly on September 23rd. Negotiations between Israel and the PA collapsed last year over Israel's refusal to halt the construction of illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank. PA officials say the stalled talks have forced it to seek recognition at the UN.


    Last edited by PumaMan; September 10th, 2011 at 01:07 PM.
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    Do you think that the Arab states are all for Palestinian statehood ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Do you think that the Arab states are all for Palestinian statehood ?
    Interesting question. I don't know the answer. Do you? If so, you can answer your own question here, preferably answering the question "why?" and preferably with supporting links.

    Also, your question implies that the US, and possibly England and France, do not want Palestinian statehood. Why is that? And if so, then why does the US initiate and moderate the Palestinian-Israeli negotiations? Is that a sham?

    BTW, I wasn't trying to start an argument. I wasn't making a statement, i.e. I wasn't asking a question for which I already knew the answer. I was asking a question for which I don't know the answer. So, can you answer my question (the why?) without asking another question?
    Last edited by PumaMan; September 11th, 2011 at 09:42 AM.
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    While Israel is not a formal American Ally, it has been for many decades our strongest defacto Ally economically, in terms of aid and supporting democratic interest in the region. If they don't want a Palestinian state than we don't want one--that's the default position.

    Hamas is still considered a terrorist organization and we don't support terrorist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    . . . then we don't want one--that's the default position.
    So, then the US position as organizer/initiator of Palestinian-Israeli negotiations over the past decades is indeed a sham? The proposed result of a Palestinian state is not what the US wants? And Israel's entry (each time) into negotiations with the Palestinians is also a sham?
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    . . . then we don't want one--that's the default position.
    So, then the US position as organizer/initiator of Palestinian-Israeli negotiations over the past decades is indeed a sham? The proposed result of a Palestinian state is not what the US wants? And Israel's entry (each time) into negotiations with the Palestinians is also a sham?
    The request from the UN is completely separate from the Palestinian-Israeli negotiations--that's another one of the problems. Why should the US support PA psuedo-government's request for recognition while the HAMAS states openly its top priority is to destroy Israel.
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    Palestinian terrorist operations are conducted by individual Palestinian groups without the sanction of any larger body. Israeli military operations (which aren't a whole lot different in practice) are done with the full approval of the Israeli government. What would happen if Palestine were a nation is that Palestinian terrorists would continue attacking Israeli civilians, but the Israeli military would no longer be able to retaliate without causing an international conflict. We try to avoid international conflicts, especially when one nation has nuclear weapons (and the other has nuclear armed allies.... like Iran soon will likely become.)

    Internal conflicts are fine, no matter how bloody they get. The Rwanda genocide didn't trigger any nuclear wars.
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    OK, from the (very) few opinions from this forum, the bottom line seems to be: Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state so the US doesn't want a Palestinian state. Which makes the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks over the last decades nothing but shams. If this is the truth, then I can understand why the Palestinians are now going to make their case before the UN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    OK, from the (very) few opinions from this forum, the bottom line seems to be: Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state so the US doesn't want a Palestinian state. Which makes the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks over the last decades nothing but shams. If this is the truth, then I can understand why the Palestinians are now going to make their case before the UN.
    Grossly oversimplified. They don't want a Palestinian State, unless certain conditions are met, like a complete renouncement of their stated purpose to destroy Israel in both word and deed. Much of the past decade's negotiations have centered in getting PA to that reasonable point--so it's not a sham in the least.
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    Several decades of failed negotiations, which the US has brokered, has resulted in nothing for the Palestinians. There are now 600,000 Israelis in settlements in the West Bank. I understand the Palestinian frustration. The UN General Assembly vote may show that this situation is basically the US and Israel vs the rest of the world -- we shall see in a couple of weeks.
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    Israel is very vocal about Palestinian as being a terrorist, and they also have representative in the US to lobby for this sort view; while Palestinian doesn't have one. It is clear that Palestin need fix, even ex-president Jimmy Carter thinks so. The problem is that US is only hearing from the most vocal person in the room: Isreal.

    This is called lobbying. Lobbying always work because diplomatic relation is always between individuals and not between group of people. For example: When a state representative is made to be convinced of anything: he/she can push the government to change the policy (ie: Charlie Wilson's War).
    Last edited by msafwan; September 16th, 2011 at 04:50 AM.
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    Funny how people on forums refer to the Palestinian people as terrorist, yet they have no advance weaponry, no airpower, no border control and definitely no chemical\wmd's, whilst the Isreali's have all of the above and use them frequently on the innocent people of Palestine including women and children. People please dont forget the use of phosphorus (read what it does and see the pictures, its all there), the attacking of the gaza aid ship and dont' forget the brave Rachel Corrie so to say Palestine is a terrorist state, please, I beg you to open your eyes, your mind and look for yourselves dont believe what you are being told.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by aje2010 View Post
    Funny how people on forums refer to the Palestinian people as terrorist, yet they have no advance weaponry, no airpower, no border control and definitely no chemical\wmd's, whilst the Isreali's have all of the above and use them frequently on the innocent people of Palestine including women and children. People please dont forget the use of phosphorus (read what it does and see the pictures, its all there), the attacking of the gaza aid ship and dont' forget the brave Rachel Corrie so to say Palestine is a terrorist state, please, I beg you to open your eyes, your mind and look for yourselves dont believe what you are being told.....
    It's because they have no central leadership. The idea of a "terrorist" and an "anarchist" are really not that different. Terrorists were actually called anarchists around the turn of the 20th century. One of them shot William McKinley.

    William McKinley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    When there is a central leadership, it is possible to have productive negotiations. The central leader can speak for every soldier in the army at once, and guarantee that whatever promises he/she makes will be honored, or the ones responsible for not honoring them will be punished. The leader of a rag tag rebellion can't do that as well, because there's no guarantee some of his/her followers won't splinter off and do their own thing.

    It's not that people want an end to death. It's that they want an end to the chaos. Israel can deliver on that. Palestine can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    Several decades of failed negotiations, which the US has brokered, has resulted in nothing for the Palestinians. There are now 600,000 Israelis in settlements in the West Bank. I understand the Palestinian frustration. The UN General Assembly vote may show that this situation is basically the US and Israel vs the rest of the world -- we shall see in a couple of weeks.
    What I don't understand is : what were the Palestinians expecting? Did they think Israel would grant them concessions just for showing up? As far as I can tell Palestine has conceded practically nothing in any of the talks. What little they do concede is short lived, and almost immediately revoked the moment they ask for another additional concession and don't get it.

    It's like if you bought a used car from somebody, and they asked $500.00. So you pay $500.00 to buy the car, and then they call you on the phone one day and ask for another $200.00, and when you refuse to give it to them they send a repo-man to get the car back. But... you.... already gave them the asking price for the car... That's the problem with trying to buy a car from someone who is emotionally attached to it. They never really let it go.

    We all know that the Palis will never, ever, ever stop fighting until they get back all the land they had before 1948. They might stop for a while, if enticed properly, but it's totally certain not to last. Granting them a Palestinian state would be one such enticement, but in the long run when they start fighting again it will only make their position tactically easier for them.


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    The Arab world could force Israel to recognize Palestine. They could do it by banding together, stopping the export of any oil, making the demand (for a Palestinian state), and then wait till the US and other western nations cave in and apply the correct pressure on Israel. But, alas, the Arab world has never been able to stand together because they distrust each other almost as much as they distrust the US and Israel.

    Oh well, it should be interesting at the UN this week . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by aje2010 View Post
    Funny how people on forums refer to the Palestinian people as terrorist, yet they have no advance weaponry, no airpower, no border control and definitely no chemical\wmd's,
    If we've learning over the last decade you don't need advanced weapon to be a terrorist.
    " But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree." from Hamas Charter.--

    When a basis of their proposed government is destruction of another nation and genocide or conversion they forfeit their right to to become a nation and join the international community. The US really has no choice but to reject their petition. It would be like giving a five year old the right to vote or drive a car.

    But, alas, the Arab world has never been able to stand together because they distrust each other almost as much as they distrust the US and Israel.
    I think it has a lot more to do with greed and fear of their own internal populations if they can't buy their happiness, than distrust between each other.
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    The problem here is that Israel is really expanding into Palestinian territory... This is a wrong move. Whether that expansion is a private enterprise (allowed by a corrupt government) or an action really sanctioned by Israel government: this expansion must stop!

    I think people has a misconception that Palestinian were born terrorist. This is wrong... From what I saw in "Investigative Report" from CI channel (Crime and Investigation Channel): Palestinian became the way they were because of Israeli troop which reinforce their believe that Israel is evil and everything that they fought for was true (because of Israeli's action on Palestinian territory).

    Even if Hamas is the terrorist: what Israel is doing is instigating hatred into the mind of the civilian: and this will backfire. We already know this is happening because Hamas was voted up as the governing party (thru democratic election), and some civilian already take matter into their hand by killing Israeli thru suicide bombing. What I feared is that Israel will became desperate and start targeting civilians... which already happen.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by msafwan View Post
    The problem here is that Israel is really expanding into Palestinian territory... This is a wrong move. Whether that expansion is a private enterprise (allowed by a corrupt government) or an action really sanctioned by Israel government: this expansion must stop!

    I think people has a misconception that Palestinian were born terrorist. This is wrong... From what I saw in "Investigative Report" from CI channel (Crime and Investigation Channel): Palestinian became the way they were because of Israeli troop which reinforce their believe that Israel is evil and everything that they fought for was true (because of Israeli's action on Palestinian territory).
    Maybe they weren't born terrorists, but they've always been kind of a thorn in Britain's side, ever since they got conquered in WW1 (as part of the overall defeat of the Ottoman Empire.) The nation of Israel is just an extension of that conquest. By settling a sympathetic population into the region they were assured of stable and permanent access to the Suez Canal. The Palestinians were known as Palestinian Arabs back then.

    British Mandate for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    All through history different empires have been trying to colonize that region. It's not even the first time the Jews have been used in this way. Cyrus of Persia's release of them after the Babylonian captivity in 537 BC was probably intended similarly as an attempt to create a buffer nation between himself and Egypt.

    Persian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I don't think the region has ever been stable long enough to have a true "native" population. Maybe we should all just compromise. Evacuate both the Arabs and the Jews from the region and let the Chinese have it.



    Even if Hamas is the terrorist: what Israel is doing is instigating hatred into the mind of the civilian: and this will backfire. We already know this is happening because Hamas was voted up as the governing party (thru democratic election), and some civilian already take matter into their hand by killing Israeli thru suicide bombing. What I feared is that Israel will became desperate and start targeting civilians... which already happen.
    It's called "job security", and both sides want it. Hamas are career "freedom fighters". Those dudes aren't working day jobs. Clearly Mossad's upper leadership and the Israeli military want to make careers out of this also.

    In reality, both groups are conspiring against the civilian population of the area. They use a bit of cognitive dissonance to make themselves feel noble about it, but they don't want the war to end. They'd be unemployed, and most of them probably don't know how to do anything that pays in a peacetime economy. That's why its important to cross train soldiers in something they can use when they get out. Otherwise you get these standing armies that are reluctant to disperse, who then go around trying to deliberately provoke each other.
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    Perhaps, because Israel and the United States' policy towards Israel will be tested, in the General Assembly, which both the United States and Israel are concerned about. In reality, the democratic governments all around the world, are a law unto their own. Once a democratic government is elected, they have the sanction of law, not to heed the voice of the people, which is the true meaning of democracy. Why, then, should they heed voices or consider them in the international fora?
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    Its quite profound how skewed the views of most people are on this Israel-Palestine issue.
    Some remarks about fundamentalists saying xyz and the virtual genocide of a whole nation is somehow justified?

    The short answer to the OP's question is that Isreal is against Palestines statehood and that's why US is against it.

    One more thing, this notion that US has been a neutral "broker" between Isrealis and Palestinians who havent been able to come to an angreement is just false, a 2state settlement could've been reached several times, even in the Clinton years but then US went as far as calling off the subsequent meeting to a conference where an agreement was quite close.
    It is simply not in US interests to have a Palestinian state
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    As a Palestinian I'm not surprised by the American government's stance on this situation, the US will always blindly support Israel like it has while Israel was butchering civilians in Gaza, illegally stealing Palestinian land and eversince the unfortunate inception of that wretched state, Bush said it best "its a crusade".
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    Quote Originally Posted by aje2010 View Post
    Funny how people on forums refer to the Palestinian people as terrorist, yet they have no advance weaponry, no airpower, no border control and definitely no chemical\wmd's, whilst the Isreali's have all of the above and use them frequently on the innocent people of Palestine including women and children. People please dont forget the use of phosphorus (read what it does and see the pictures, its all there), the attacking of the gaza aid ship and dont' forget the brave Rachel Corrie so to say Palestine is a terrorist state, please, I beg you to open your eyes, your mind and look for yourselves dont believe what you are being told.....
    You are shitting me , right ? The massacre of twelve people, at the 1972 Munich Olympics, by the Palestinian terrorist group Black September does spring to mind.

    Munich massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    You are shitting me , right ? The massacre of twelve people, at the 1972 Munich Olympics, by the Palestinian terrorist group Black September does spring to mind.

    Munich massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So a person/group of people from some country who commit terrorist acts make the whole nation terrorists? If we follow this logic then Norwegians are terrorists because of Breivik.
    Anyways thats beside the point i think aje2010 was trying to make.
    If we take the Israel-Palestine issue then usually the ones who are labelled as the terrorists are Palestinians. This is a common thread in western mentality: Horrific deeds against us (west) = terrorism, horrific deeds against 3rd world countries/arabs etc = counter terrorism/just war etc.
    Now if we look at the Isreal and Palestine issue it's pretty clear which side is the agressor, Israel is taking the more valuable Palestine lands, blocking foreign humanitarian aid, constantly attacking palestinian people and committing a slow genocide.

    The media coverage isnt helping either, usually palestinian acts of terror are met with big furor in the international media while Isreali acts of terror are viewed as justified or are not covered at all, captured israel soldiers who have been caught on palestinian lands recieve huge coverage while Palestinian civilians taken from their homes and who dissappear into Israeli prisons have almost no coverage at all.

    Now does this somehow justify terrorism towards isreal? No, it makes things only worse. But to paint the whole issue as "Isreal defending itself against evil palestinians" is just wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    You are shitting me , right ? The massacre of twelve people, at the 1972 Munich Olympics, by the Palestinian terrorist group Black September does spring to mind.

    Munich massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So a person/group of people from some country who commit terrorist acts make the whole nation terrorists? If we follow this logic then Norwegians are terrorists because of Breivik.
    Anyways thats beside the point i think aje2010 was trying to make.
    Indeed that's true. But what if, for example, the official party leadership in charge of the country was sending out memo to its population claiming credit for blowing up school buses, or sponsoring web sites like Hamas did this summer?

    علنت كتائب الشهيد عز الدين القسام الجناح العسكري لحركة المقاومة الإسلامية حماس استهداف حافلة صهيونية قرب مغتصبة "كفار سعد" شرق غزة ، كما زفت أحد مجاهديها في قصف صهيوني شرق رفح .
    translated: Declared Izzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic Resistance Movement HAMAS targeting a bus near a Zionist usurper "Kfar Saad" east of Gaza, as one of asphalt by fighters in the bombing of a Zionist east of Rafah.

    http://www.qassam.ps/news-4947-Hamas...t_of_Gaza.html
    Their official web page takes credit for many such attacks.

    And, rather than one incident, there are dozens over the past ten years of the leading party actively sponsoring, planing and executed, often against civilian targets. This is not the behavior of anyone who should be allowed to join the international group of nations.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; September 30th, 2011 at 11:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alas79 View Post
    As a Palestinian I'm not surprised by the American government's stance on this situation, the US will always blindly support Israel like it has while Israel was butchering civilians in Gaza, illegally stealing Palestinian land and eversince the unfortunate inception of that wretched state, Bush said it best "its a crusade".
    If you look at the history, it's not illegal at all. The idea of it being "illegal" to arbitrarily seize land by conquest didn't really emerge until the end of World War II, which is a long time after Palestine fell into British hands. Before that, if you could take territory by force of arms, it was your legal property in every possible respect. The USA's claim to Arizona, New Mexico, and California is based on exactly that very form of "legality", because those territories didn't fall into our hands until we stole them outright in the Mexican American war in 1848. Are you arguing that we need to return those states to Mexico?

    What different basis does Palestine have to demand to be returned its statehood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    You are shitting me , right ? The massacre of twelve people, at the 1972 Munich Olympics, by the Palestinian terrorist group Black September does spring to mind.

    Munich massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So a person/group of people from some country who commit terrorist acts make the whole nation terrorists? If we follow this logic then Norwegians are terrorists because of Breivik.
    Anyways thats beside the point i think aje2010 was trying to make.
    If we take the Israel-Palestine issue then usually the ones who are labelled as the terrorists are Palestinians. This is a common thread in western mentality: Horrific deeds against us (west) = terrorism, horrific deeds against 3rd world countries/arabs etc = counter terrorism/just war etc.
    Now if we look at the Isreal and Palestine issue it's pretty clear which side is the agressor, Israel is taking the more valuable Palestine lands, blocking foreign humanitarian aid, constantly attacking palestinian people and committing a slow genocide.

    The media coverage isnt helping either, usually palestinian acts of terror are met with big furor in the international media while Isreali acts of terror are viewed as justified or are not covered at all, captured israel soldiers who have been caught on palestinian lands recieve huge coverage while Palestinian civilians taken from their homes and who dissappear into Israeli prisons have almost no coverage at all.

    Now does this somehow justify terrorism towards isreal? No, it makes things only worse. But to paint the whole issue as "Isreal defending itself against evil palestinians" is just wrong
    State sponsored brutality isn't considered terrorism with good reason. It may be exactly as brutal. It may even be more brutal. But, it is being done by an organization that is capable of collective negotiation and that is what makes it different. And it's a very important difference.

    Terrorists can't sign treaties. Or well... they can sign them... but it's just a silly piece of paper that doesn't mean anything. If Hamas signed a 10 year ceasefire today and certain members of Hamas still felt violated and didn't want to stop fighting, they could just leave Hamas and reform into a new group and begin violence anew. If a faction of the Israeli military tried that, they'd be rounded up and executed as traitors.
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    State sponsored brutality isn't considered terrorism with good reason. It may be exactly as brutal. It may even be more brutal. But, it is being done by an organization that is capable of collective negotiation and that is what makes it different. And it's a very important difference.
    Ok, I get your overall point and I agree with some of it, some things though..
    Lets start with the definition of terrorism: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. Something like that with slight variations in different dictionaries.
    Nowhere in that definition is there a reservation made for state terrorism as not really terrorism at all.
    I don't see how Hamas for example is an organization that you couldn't negotiate with. Please elaborate what do you exactly mean under 'collective negotiation' and how there is a black and white line between Isreal and Palestine in this case.


    Terrorists can't sign treaties. Or well... they can sign them... but it's just a silly piece of paper that doesn't mean anything. If Hamas signed a 10 year ceasefire today and certain members of Hamas still felt violated and didn't want to stop fighting, they could just leave Hamas and reform into a new group and begin violence anew. If a faction of the Israeli military tried that, they'd be rounded up and executed as traitors.


    The palestinian 'terrorists' btw have a pretty good record of keeping up to those silly pieces of paper that have been accepted by both sides, if you look at the history of breaking ceasefires for example that it's usually Isreal who breaks them, or ignores them alltogether after accepting, by maintaining siege.
    Parts of the Isreali military dont need to break apart from the rest because orders to brake/ignore ceasefires probably come from the top.
    Your point of people leaving a bound Hamas to continue terror is first of all a hypothetical and it would be pointless because Hamas themselves could brake the treatie just like Isreal does.

    If you look at the history, it's not illegal at all. The idea of it being "illegal" to arbitrarily seize land by conquest didn't really emerge until the end of World War II, which is a long time after Palestine fell into British hands. Before that, if you could take territory by force of arms, it was your legal property in every possible respect. The USA's claim to Arizona, New Mexico, and California is based on exactly that very form of "legality", because those territories didn't fall into our hands until we stole them outright in the Mexican American war in 1848. Are you arguing that we need to return those states to Mexico?

    What different basis does Palestine have to demand to be returned its statehood?

    Palestinians are a totally separate nation from isrealis and they want a sovereign country, with support for a 2state settlement in a majority of isrealis as well as 90+% of the world.
    Are you really trying to argue that there is NO basis to demand for a Palestinian state?
    Even if you argue that only after WWII it has been illegal to seize land, do you think that before the act was justified or moral ?
    The analogy with California etc and Palestine doesnt hold up..
    Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
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  27. #26  
    Forum Freshman Tachyon's Avatar
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    Indeed that's true. But what if, for example, the official party leadership in charge of the country was sending out memo to its population claiming credit for blowing up school buses, or sponsoring web sites like Hamas did this summer?

    علنت كتائب الشهيد عز الدين القسام الجناح العسكري لحركة المقاومة الإسلامية حماس استهداف حافلة صهيونية قرب مغتصبة "كفار سعد" شرق غزة ، كما زفت أحد مجاهديها في قصف صهيوني شرق رفح .
    translated: Declared Izzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic Resistance Movement HAMAS targeting a bus near a Zionist usurper "Kfar Saad" east of Gaza, as one of asphalt by fighters in the bombing of a Zionist east of Rafah.

    http://www.qassam.ps/news-4947-Hamas...t_of_Gaza.html
    Their official web page takes credit for many such attacks.

    And, rather than one incident, there are dozens over the past ten years of the leading party actively sponsoring, planing and executed, often against civilian targets. This is not the behavior of anyone who should be allowed to join the international group of nations.
    Yes these are acts of terrorism and it's really really wrong for official parties to boast about those atrocities, also its bad for Palestinians themselves.
    But i dont see how this is any different from what Isreal is doing, they are responsible when their army kills or imprisons civilians and that is happening in a way bigger scale then what Palestinians are doing to Isreal.
    Also, in 2002 july Isreal bombed Gaza, civilians got killed, Minister Ariel Sharon called the air strike "one of the greatest successes of his tenure".
    To me it seems quite the same as Hamas claiming credit for blowing up a civilian bus and just like you pointed out with Hamas, this too, is hardly an isolated case.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tachyon View Post
    State sponsored brutality isn't considered terrorism with good reason. It may be exactly as brutal. It may even be more brutal. But, it is being done by an organization that is capable of collective negotiation and that is what makes it different. And it's a very important difference.
    Ok, I get your overall point and I agree with some of it, some things though..
    Lets start with the definition of terrorism: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. Something like that with slight variations in different dictionaries.
    Nowhere in that definition is there a reservation made for state terrorism as not really terrorism at all.
    I don't see how Hamas for example is an organization that you couldn't negotiate with. Please elaborate what do you exactly mean under 'collective negotiation' and how there is a black and white line between Isreal and Palestine in this case.


    This is the closest thing I can find to any specific agreement that's been signed by both parties.

    History of the Israeli peace process-wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki Oslo Process
    One of the most contentious issues surrounding this peace process is whether the PA in fact met its obligations to promote tolerance. There is specific evidence that the PA actively funded and supported many terrorist activities and groups.[47] Palestinians stated that any terrorist acts stemmed from Israel not having conceded enough land and political power to win support among ordinary Palestinians. Israelis stated that these acts of terrorism were because the PA openly encouraged and supported incitement against Israel, and terrorism. There was increasing disagreement and debate among Israelis about the amount of positive results and benefits produced by the Oslo process. Supporters said it was producing advances leading to a viable Palestinian society which would promote genuine acceptance of Israel. Opponents said that concessions were merely emboldening extremist elements to commit more violence in order to win further concessions, without providing any real acceptance, benefits, goodwill, or reconciliation for Israel in return.
    I think it also illustrates my point. There's too much confusion over who is ultimately responsible to enforce Palestine's side of the agreements it makes. On the other hand, there no confusion at all over who is responsible to enforce Israel's side of an agreement. You can't negotiate with people who aren't accountable. I think the word "terrorist" is imprecise, but I don't know of a better one. I prefer to the definition of "unlawful combatant".

    Unlawful combatant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The trouble is ragtag groups of angry citizens that don't answer to their own nation's government and therefore cannot be ordered to "stand down" by that government. It leads to wars that are easy to start and impossible to stop. The strategy is popular because with no central leader there's nobody who can surrender, and therefore no way to decapitate the movement. The downside is even after they've won they never stop fighting. Israel would be happy to concede all of its outward settlements, retreat back to its borders, and bring all this conflict to a close. In 2005 they started down that process.

    Israeli-Settlements-Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki Israeli Settlements
    In 2005, Israel's unilateral disengagement plan, a proposal put forward by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, was enacted. All residents of Jewish settlements in the Gaza strip were evacuated, and all residential buildings were demolished
    But surely even the most generous Israeli realizes that they must hold onto something they can use as leverage. If they concede all of their settlements upfront, then what will they use as bargaining chips the next time Hamas, the PLO, or some other new emergent group decides to start blowing up buses? The only way to win when someone is trying to extort you is to take something of theirs and use it as leverage right back at them. Otherwise you're feeding the beast.

    If you look at the history, it's not illegal at all. The idea of it being "illegal" to arbitrarily seize land by conquest didn't really emerge until the end of World War II, which is a long time after Palestine fell into British hands. Before that, if you could take territory by force of arms, it was your legal property in every possible respect. The USA's claim to Arizona, New Mexico, and California is based on exactly that very form of "legality", because those territories didn't fall into our hands until we stole them outright in the Mexican American war in 1848. Are you arguing that we need to return those states to Mexico?

    What different basis does Palestine have to demand to be returned its statehood?

    Palestinians are a totally separate nation from isrealis and they want a sovereign country, with support for a 2state settlement in a majority of isrealis as well as 90+% of the world.
    Are you really trying to argue that there is NO basis to demand for a Palestinian state?
    Even if you argue that only after WWII it has been illegal to seize land, do you think that before the act was justified or moral ?
    The analogy with California etc and Palestine doesnt hold up..
    I see the problem with "might makes right" but you must remember that both sides were in consent to the idea. Had the other side won WW I, the Ottomans would likely have gained control over some new territory they hadn't held before, and claimed sovereignty over it. It just so happens that Britain was on the winning side, and part of the spoils of their victory was the region of the Ottoman Empire now known as Israel. It's not like with the USA invading Iraq, where a super mega big power is picking on a shrimpy little weakling. The Ottomans were a force to be reckoned with, and had fortune smiled on them, things could have turned out very differently than they did.

    You could just as easily start a game of poker with someone, lose $10,000 by betting on the wrong cards, and then turn around and argue that the transfer of the money is null and void because the outcome of a card game is too arbitrary a basis to determine the ownership of an amount of money that large. Both sides gambled the moment they entered that war. They knew the stakes and they agreed to them.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  29. #28  
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    USA keep Palestinian out away from UN because if they don't make it so, Palestinian will get the right to accuse Israel on the International Court of Justice. Although Israel will get the same right, they will be in a very bad state because they are more developed and much more powerful, they will be very unhappy about that. Since there are many Jews who can influence the voting in USA, USA will always support the Israel. So the reason is simply, Palestinians, how dare you blame USA, did you ever get any influence on voting?
    Talking about the "legal" question, I want to say international law sometimes are only lies or game of big countries. There are too many bugs in thousands kinds of different laws, and there are always people who can find the bugs and use them as a weapon. If USA continuing non-conditionally support Israel by using so called laws without considering the spirit inside laws, the only result is terrorism never end in middle east, just think if you are restrained will you just negotiate with the one who restrained you? Well, some Palestinian people are already angry that their government can't get any right from UN, do we really want to push them to the terrorists, or maybe they'd better all turn to terrorists then UN(USA?) get a good reason to get rid of this trouble country once and for all?
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