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Thread: A new Rome: necessary or not.

  1. #1 A new Rome: necessary or not. 
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    What would be the advantages of Europe uniting under one government like America did.


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  3. #2 Re: A new Rome: necessary or not. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876
    What would be the advantages of Europe uniting under one government like America did.
    I can not think of one single advantage, the disadvantages are many.


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  4. #3 Re: A new Rome: necessary or not. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876
    What would be the advantages of Europe uniting under one government like America did.
    I can not think of one single advantage, the disadvantages are many.
    What would be the disadvantages to this.
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  5. #4 Re: A new Rome: necessary or not. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876
    What would be the advantages of Europe uniting under one government like America did.
    Larger population can lead to more power. They could consolidate their military even more, and leverage their different resources more effectively (like we do with states).

    Some of the downsides are just differences of opinion. There are centuries of culture which impact people's feelings of one another, and not everyone gets along. Then again, we have that in the US, too.
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  6. #5  
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    The British North American self-governing realms (New Brunswick, the Canadas, and Nova Scotia) decided to federate in 1867 because of the perceived military threat of the USA and the need to pool resources. The benefits were clear, and because most of these colonies shared a predominantly British and French cultural identity, they didn't really have close ties to any other national identity; added to that most of them had only gained self-governance in the previous 20 years. Although, it should be noted that their were isolationist and hold outs. British Columbia took some convincing to join, but it was a big success for Canada to get them to join because it ensured dominion from coast to coast. Prince Edward Island originally chose not to join, but joined a decade later. When Newfoundland voted to give up its national status and join Canada after WW2 it was largely due to them being bankrupted by the war. The vote only passed by a couple percentage points and Newfoundland nationalist maintained a political stance in the province for decades after they joined. This problem existed even with a country that was culturally and historically close, and also only 140 years old. I can just imagine the tensions and resistance you would get with the centuries old European nation states.

    In general, I think historically successful federations, like Canada and the USA, have certain features in common. There were clear advantages to federation, there was a sort of national idea that united the people, and a relatively culturally homogenized population at the outset. Both countries have had bumps in the road (Quebec separatism in Canada, driven by cultural differences and perception of historical inequality of the French Canadians; and, of course, the American Civil War). In general, these countries have largely homogenized peoples that share a national myth that binds them together.

    We've seen multinational states like Yugoslavia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire collapse rather quickly and struggle with internal differences. The European Union would likely require a complete reworking of national identities, Europeans would have to start thinking of themselves as European before their national identity. I don't see the European population as being receptive towards stripping away their national identities. As the EU stands now, it's trying to have it both ways, be a working confederation and still maintain the individual national identities.
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  7. #6  
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    I don't live in europe, s I can't really say, but I think europe is one of the most culturally differentiated hotspots-compare the uk to france, then france to spain, then spain etc. all in the same relatively small area. The us had always been united under one leader, so it was easier for them to consolidate than it would be for Europe.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15uliane
    I think europe is one of the most culturally differentiated hotspots-compare the uk to france, then france to spain, then spain etc. all in the same relatively small area. The us had always been united under one leader, so it was easier for them to consolidate than it would be for Europe.
    Cultural differences within Europe are rapidly being eroded and in my opinion will be trivial in the near future. Historical cultural differences will be preserved in the historical sites and museums but not so much among the people. It is a cliche, but think of McDonald's in Prague, and decent cuisine in Edinburgh, both unheard of 30 years ago. There is so much travel among the EU countries for work and permanent relocation as well as vacations. People listen to the same music, eat the same food and more and more they speak the same language - English.

    Indeed, they are even going bankrupt together.
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  9. #8  
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    Yes, they may be on the road to forgetting the old cultural differences, but I don't think that a unified European federation could work right now. The differences of opinion seem too great to overcome now.

    I'm not in Europe, so everything I just said may be invalid. But from the outside, it sure seems like a unified Europe couldn't work.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeeeaaaa
    but I don't think that a unified European federation could work right now. The differences of opinion seem too great to overcome now.
    Nor is it necessary. They will work out the problems (of which there are many) in the EU structure and come to a workable solution. Seems to me that the only EU country that is a real outlier in terms of culture is Greece, where there is a culture of political corruption and tax cheating not evident in other members. And that is ironic considering the debt that democracy and western philosophy owes to Greece.
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  11. #10  
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    I was born in Europe ( Italy ) and am currently Canadian. It seems to me Europe is more 'united' and similar than some parts of Canada ( Quebec and rest of Canada, maritimes and alberta , etc).

    Europeans considered themselves leaders of the world 100 yrs ago. They miss that feeling. The only way to have it back and an influence in today's world, is by uniting. At which point they'll be equivalent to the US, Russia, China and other emergent powers like India and Brasil. They already have common currency, market and economic plans. Just their governments are redundant through duplication, but people move cross borders like going to a different town. I think and hope that eventually unification and a United States of Europe will exist.

    But then I splash cold water on my face and remember that the two biggest wars of history were fought amongst Europeans in the last hundred years.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    But then I splash cold water on my face and remember that the two biggest wars of history were fought amongst Europeans in the last hundred years.
    Probably a catalyst for our closer ties now.

    I'm born and raised English, but consider myself European first, which is rare - and probably treasonous to some people.

    Most of the anti-European arguments i hear are nostalgic and emotive. If you don't value Nationalism, then none of these arguments appeal. There are some economic reasons, but i don't pretend to understand economics enough to make a decision based on this.

    I do have problems with the current Union though - it is rather undemocratic, or maybe just opaque, either way that needs to change.

    We would have won all the recent Olympics if we'd been under one flag.
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  13. #12  
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    Classical Greek states shared language and to a degree culture also, but fought many bloody wars and usually joined together only under duress.

    As for United Europe, is old dream of Napoleon, Hitler, and similar luminaries. How would this be established, one wonders?
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  14. #13  
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    They should just make it official and become provinces of Germany. The Swiss and Scandanavians certainly add something, but I think Italy, Spain, the various Eastern states, and certainly Greece are just dead weight.

    Why not just quit while they're ahead (while they still have illustrious histories they can brag about), and assimilate before they have time to run out their present natural course and end being remembered as total failures? Imagine if the Muslims had quit while they were still ahead. Think how great that would be, both for them and us.
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  15. #14  
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    I think a new Rome would be a good idea because it would give the European states a new identity that they could build around. Perhaps they could all speak English or Latin to make communication easier.
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  16. #15  
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    Ha, I'd like to see all the Europeans rushing to learn Latin. :wink:
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