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Thread: Embracing cultures that don't approve of one's own culture

  1. #1 Embracing cultures that don't approve of one's own culture 
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    Why do we do this? Why is WASP culture so eager to embrace other cultures that are not eager to embrace us? Clearly the most anti-WASP racial groups are the ones that have been oppressed in the past by WASPs, but why would I want to engage or be friends with someone who thinks that I'm automatically a bad person just because of the color of my skin, or my religious affiliation?

    Isn't group resentment over past wrongs still a form of bigotry? Doesn't it still involve judging a person on the mere basis of their ethnicity without knowing the person?


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    To me it seems we are extreme reluctant to even try to understand other cultures, even ones in our own nation--and that's well short of "embracing them." The Iraqi's I worked with for example, seemed a heck of a lot more curious about "us," our culture, our religions, our marriage customs etc, than most of the American team was of their ways.


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    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    I have more in common culturally with the black and Irish Catholic people who grew up in the same neighbourhood as me than I do to the majority of WASPs. The idea that we have much in common with people who share our cultural, ethnic, and religious background is largely delusion.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    "Why is WASP culture so eager to embrace other cultures that are not eager to embrace us? "
    Which culture that is being embraced are you refering to?
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  6. #5 Re: Embracing cultures that don't approve of one's own cultu 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Why is WASP culture so eager to embrace other cultures that are not eager to embrace us?
    Could you give examples of this in practice? If you are going to stereotype and generalise, then I think the reverse is true. WASP culture is inward looking, paraochial and patronising.
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    I am mostly Wasp (and part Native Indian) with a great fondness for Chinese,, Thai and Mexican food.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    with a great fondness for Chinese, Thai and Mexican food
    With a few exceptions, I think cuisine is not a part of culture that is causing any problems, its more values/habits/codes of conducts that cause problems when these clash with the values/habits/codes of conducts of other people. Ex: I love chinese food, no problem, in some parts of china (perhaps like parts of america a long long time ago) spitting isnt a big deal, but if you are in a bus a person spits a big disgusting blob of mucus right in the middle of a window inside a bus or subway that is a problem. Segragating women from men in some parts of the world is not seen as a problem in those parts(it might be in 200 years but 200 ago it wasnt and they still live like that now), but wanting to do te same in a more progressive modern society who's values have changed in the past few decades is a problem.
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    It was a joke Ice. Other than superficial things like food, I think Ophiolite's characterization that WASP are mostly parochial and patronizing spot on.
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  10. #9 Re: Embracing cultures that don't approve of one's own cultu 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Why is WASP culture so eager to embrace other cultures that are not eager to embrace us?
    Could you give examples of this in practice? If you are going to stereotype and generalise, then I think the reverse is true. WASP culture is inward looking, paraochial and patronising.
    It depends what segment you're looking at I guess. Liberal WASPs think they are inward looking, paraochial, and patronizing. I live near Portland, Oregon, where the race issue comes up quite a lot. It's the fifth least diverse major city in the USA.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index...rld_portland_r.


    Whenever I've interacted with the black community of the city, they're just incredibly cloistered. I used to deliver pizzas to that region of the city, where the most black people live. I would meet three types of people. Type 1: discounted me on sight, offering only the very minimum of niceties to close the pizza deal, like I was intruding to even be there (except of course.... that they had placed the order for the pizza...) Type 2: was just like meeting other white people. Type 3: really friendly even though there was a subtle barrier. I also delivered to regions that were primarily inhabited by white people, so I certainly had a baseline to compare with. You must understand that I was in it for the tips. I'm very pragmatic in matters of business. For me to do anything to provoke the response I received it would have to have been perfectly unintentional.

    My boss was black, but he was awesome. I never felt the least discomfort hanging out with my boss. That's why I doubt that my feeling of discomfort with black clients owes to any subconscious racism. (Conscious maybe at this point, but if it were subconscious it would be directed toward all black people, not just some, wouldn't it?) I genuinely felt like the black people I delivered pizzas to were directing hostility toward me. I didn't like going into that region after a while, because I couldn't figure out how to react to it properly.

    If that doesn't qualify as being parochial and inward looking, what would? It's also patronizing when someone tries to look down on you for what your ancestors supposedly did to their ancestors. I say "supposedly" because there's no way to be sure my ancestors specifically were involved, or which ones, or how many of them were involved and to what degree. Maybe it would turn out after conducting genealogical research that none of them were. Certainly a person couldn't know just by looking at me.
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    Consider the following music genres:

    1) - Rock and Roll
    2) - Country
    3) - Heavy Metal

    How many black people listen to those kinds of music?

    Now consider Rap.

    How many white people listen to rap?

    Which culture looks more parochial and inward looking in that comparison?
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    Thanks for the explanation.

    I hadn't even considered you were talking about the cultures inside the US. Compared to the cultural differences in other parts of the world, our differences are pretty minor. More subcutures of America than separate cultures.
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    Between the black from US and the white from US, we cannot say there are different cultures. They are the same.
    I remember in the 80's, I felt more near, as European, of communist Hungary than the capitalist US. One should have thought the opposite.

    To come back to the sub-cultures in the US, I will say that I found the asian community, generally (indian, korean, chinese, vietnamese etc...) the most non-integrated. And the remarks of Ophiolite is, as usual, totally true. The WASP culture is almost autistic.
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    if individuals in the US (and other countries) could live in Norway for 6 months, in southern France for 6 months, in Saudi Arabia for 6 months, in Somalia for 6 months, to India for 6 months, and to China for 6 months, and then came back to the US 3 years later, their perspective about the differences in culture within the US (and about a great many things) would probably change. :wink:
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    I might add Albania and Kossovo. The rural albanians are the weirdest people I ever met.
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    What the hell is WASP culture!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiguelSR1
    What the hell is WASP culture!?
    white anglo-saxon protestant

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_A...xon_Protestant
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiguelSR1
    What the hell is WASP culture!?
    White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's what people focus on when they say Americans are ethnocentric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal

    To come back to the sub-cultures in the US, I will say that I found the asian community, generally (indian, korean, chinese, vietnamese etc...) the most non-integrated.
    Asians are the most integrated inside the USA. They run successful businesses and generally have gained the respect of the WASP community for it. Black and Hispanic are the groups people talk about the most when discussing high crime rates, not so much the Asian community.


    And the remarks of Ophiolite is, as usual, totally true. The WASP culture is almost autistic.
    I'm inclined to see things quite the opposite. WASP culture takes in and learns everything it can from every culture it encounters, masters it, and then puts it to use. Its body of knowledge is mostly not of its own invention, but a conglomeration of bits and pieces assembled from all the other cultures it has encountered.

    Black and Hispanic cultures passively (and sometimes even actively) refuse to absorb the "white man's education", insisting on looking to its own ranks for every new innovation. Or at least that's what the self proclaimed leaders of the culture talk about all the time. (Maybe that's all just bluster?)

    That's why I specifically cited musical tastes. All of the anthropologists I've ever talked to agree that music is somewhere near the top of the list of valid indicators of a culture's direction. The refusal of black culture to embrace white musical forms, compared with the widespread acceptance white culture demonstrates toward black culture's musical forms, such as rap, should tell you who is the most willing to learn from who, and who is the most myopic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    WASP culture takes in and learns everything it can from every culture it encounters, masters it, and then puts it to use.

    <...>

    Black and Hispanic cultures passively (and sometimes even actively) refuse to absorb the "white man's education", insisting on looking to its own ranks for every new innovation. Or at least that's what the self proclaimed leaders of the culture talk about all the time.

    <...>

    The refusal of black culture to embrace white musical forms, compared with the widespread acceptance white culture demonstrates toward black culture's musical forms, such as rap, should tell you who is the most willing to learn from who, and who is the most myopic.
    You REALLY need to please stop making such stupid generalizing inaccurate comments. I'm truly rather sorry to have to tell you this, but the myopia is yours.

    Either you are just lacking in experience, or you're a bigoted fool. I know you could technically be both, but I'm trying to cut you some slack here. Did you grow up during the time of Jim Crow, or something?
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    The black in the US are embracing white musical style, if this debate has to be reduced to this. Simply, there is a "metissage" as we say in french, a cultural mix.

    USA is called "Melting Pot" but I think this is a melting pot only if you are from european descendant. For the rest, there is a strong XIXth century style racist culture. When in Houston, where 20% of the population is black, I hardly see mixed couple. In Paris or London, less than 10% of the population is black, but mixed couples are very common.

    I am not saying this is only the fault of white or black. It is both faults. But this is a consequence of this anglo-saxon apartheid culture we can still find in South Africa, all former british african colonies, british west indies etc... I remember, in Guadeloupe, when we see a person very black, not mixed, immediatly, we know she/he is from either Haiti or english islands.

    Same applies to asians who might be succesful in business but do not mix with the rest of the people. They stay in their communities.

    For a person born in France and with Caribbean origins, the model of US society is very shocking. In Caribbean, only the white beke (the big landowners) are refusing to mix officially, but all have coloured mistresses and they are embrassing the creole culture. US have a sort of creole culture but because of this mentality of "races", creates a bunch of subculture, hate between the people etc... There is a french dirty joke saying all women are pink inside. But it is not so dirty: sex and love is reconciliating everyone.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    WASP culture takes in and learns everything it can from every culture it encounters, masters it, and then puts it to use.

    <...>

    Black and Hispanic cultures passively (and sometimes even actively) refuse to absorb the "white man's education", insisting on looking to its own ranks for every new innovation. Or at least that's what the self proclaimed leaders of the culture talk about all the time.

    <...>

    The refusal of black culture to embrace white musical forms, compared with the widespread acceptance white culture demonstrates toward black culture's musical forms, such as rap, should tell you who is the most willing to learn from who, and who is the most myopic.
    You REALLY need to please stop making such stupid generalizing inaccurate comments. I'm truly rather sorry to have to tell you this, but the myopia is yours.

    Either you are just lacking in experience, or you're a bigoted fool. I know you could technically be both, but I'm trying to cut you some slack here. Did you grow up during the time of Jim Crow, or something?
    I just like discussing taboo topics. You're throwing the word "generalization" around as though no credible academic endeavor in the whole history of the world has ever used one with success. You can make observations that aren't true in every single last case, but which are true in an overwhelming majority of cases, and those observations can still have predictive value that is testable against experiment.

    The lack of prevalance of country music in black communities is so nearly ubiquitous that it barely justifies the effort for me to bother to defend that observation. The comparatively large following that rap enjoys among white teenagers, is similarly, so very uncontested that I really can't be troubled to go looking for statistics. I would find and post them, however, if the claim had any potential to be doubted.

    And as I mentioned earlier: in the field of anthropology (which is the one that would claim dominion over the issue I am discussing) music is considered a valid basis for analysis. I am not doing anything wrong by bringing it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal

    USA is called "Melting Pot" but I think this is a melting pot only if you are from european descendant. For the rest, there is a strong XIXth century style racist culture. When in Houston, where 20% of the population is black, I hardly see mixed couple. In Paris or London, less than 10% of the population is black, but mixed couples are very common.
    That is a good indicator, and I have to admit that the lack of inter-cultural marriages is probably driven more by the WASP culture than the other cultures, so that could definitely be cited as a case of WASP's demonstrating myopia.

    I think the reason is because the WASP culture approach to learning from other cultures is to only accept those parts of their body of knowledge that represent an improvement over what we have already. WASPs will accept anything that appears to even have a potential to be an improvement, but categorically rejects and ignores everything else. That can make people feel they're being discounted.

    I think a lot of other cultures take a more "all or nothing" approach about that sort of thing, where you have to either accept both the good and the bad of another culture, or neither the good nor the bad. Clearly marrying a member of another culture involves accepting both. It might also explain the confusion when one sees a child of another ethnicity refusing to accept education from a scholastic institution, claiming they don't like certain aspects of what is taught. By all means, why not just ignore those parts and take in the rest?
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I just like discussing taboo topics. You're throwing the word "generalization" around as though no credible academic endeavor in the whole history of the world has ever used one with success.
    No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. To be clear, I'm suggesting that the points you made were inaccurate and bordering on the bigoted. I was additionally asserting that your comments were spoken as if absolute truth, but from my standpoint it seems obvious that you are merely dealing with a confirmation bias, wherein you look around for events which confirm your preconceptions. On top of that, I'm suggesting that you are not working with a valid sample of the population, and that your observations are limited to your own tiny little part of the world.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    You can make observations that aren't true in every single last case, but which are true in an overwhelming majority of cases, and those observations can still have predictive value that is testable against experiment.
    "Overwhelming majority of cases" maybe anecdotally for you in your tiny space in this world, but I strongly suggest that if you wish to continue bandying about such words as "overwhelming majority" that you put up your numbers and show your methods... Let's look at your population sample to see if it's a representative cross section, or instead (what I suspect) merely a confirmation bias in your head.

    You're putting forth terms which suggest you have actual numbers in support of your point. Well, if that's truly the case, then let's see those numbers.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The lack of prevalance of country music in black communities is so nearly ubiquitous that it barely justifies the effort for me to bother to defend that observation.
    Nonsense. This is clearly a social issue, and related more to region and community than it is to color of skin as you continue to suggest. Seriously... why does this even need to be explained? Oh yeah... that's right... it needs to be explained because you're posting to this thread as if your inaccurate, asinine, and nonsense comments are absolute truth.

    Now, when you do finally share the numbers you claim are so easy to find in support of your point, I'd be curious to see how you control for age, economic status, education level, and location. Those are some pretty important confounding variables in such a study, wouldn't you say?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The comparatively large following that rap enjoys among white teenagers, is similarly, so very uncontested that I really can't be troubled to go looking for statistics.
    Oh, how convenient. I'm calling you out here. Put up or shut up. It's pretty obvious to me that you don't have numbers in support of your point, and are working almost entirely with confirmation bias alone.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I would find and post them, however, if the claim had any potential to be doubted.
    No, I think you're just lazy and that the data does NOT so clearly support your assertions. I've just doubted your claim. Now, how about you put up the references which support your contention?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    And as I mentioned earlier: in the field of anthropology (which is the one that would claim dominion over the issue I am discussing) music is considered a valid basis for analysis. I am not doing anything wrong by bringing it up.
    You seem to have missed my intended point. I am not saying that music is not a major component of culture. I am saying that your generalizations are wrong and remind me of what idiots used to say in the Jim Crow era.


    Summary: I don't believe what you are saying is true. If you wish to continue acting as if it's true, then support it with evidence and numbers.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The lack of prevalance of country music in black communities is so nearly ubiquitous that it barely justifies the effort for me to bother to defend that observation.
    Nonsense. This is clearly a social issue, and related more to region and community than it is to color of skin as you continue to suggest. Seriously... why does this even need to be explained? Oh yeah... that's right... it needs to be explained because you're posting to this thread as if your inaccurate, asinine, and nonsense comments are absolute truth.
    I think I've been clear in other places that it is not a question of skin color, but only culture/ethnicity. It just happens that most of the divergent ethnicities in the USA associate themselves closely with a skin color. It's very unfortunate that they do this. They shouldn't. It's not the skin color's fault. It's the culture's fault for being reverse racist.

    If there were other names I could call these cultures by, I would immediately adopt them.




    Now, when you do finally share the numbers you claim are so easy to find in support of your point, I'd be curious to see how you control for age, economic status, education level, and location. Those are some pretty important confounding variables in such a study, wouldn't you say?
    Are you honestly trying to suggest that there exists some repository of statistics that will validate an opposite claim that a large percentage of people who attend rock, country, or heavy metal concerts are of black ethnicity?

    Or maybe you think that, if I exclude/include certain age groups, I may find a balance between the frequency with which the two occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The comparatively large following that rap enjoys among white teenagers, is similarly, so very uncontested that I really can't be troubled to go looking for statistics.
    Oh, how convenient. I'm calling you out here. Put up or shut up. It's pretty obvious to me that you don't have numbers in support of your point, and are working almost entirely with confirmation bias alone.
    You honestly have to be kidding me. I feel like Obama trying to deal with Trump. If this is really such a question for you, why don't you just do the footwork, grab some statistics, post them, and embarrass me for having misspoken?

    Do you honestly even believe what you are saying?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I would find and post them, however, if the claim had any potential to be doubted.
    No, I think you're just lazy and that the data does NOT so clearly support your assertions. I've just doubted your claim. Now, how about you put up the references which support your contention?
    How about you deal with the search overload that comes with trying to Google the terms "race", "black" "white", and anything associated with pop music. I just don't feel like trying to sift through 100 websites dedicated to Miley Cyrus right now.

    I highly doubt that at the end of that long search I'm going to learn anything I didn't already know. But if you do that search, you might learn something you didn't already know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojax
    The refusal of black culture to embrace white musical forms,
    Tell that to these guy's; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk
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    Kojax - I notice that you've merely evaded every request I put to you to share actual data in support of your assertions. Until you comply with this reasonable and relatively simple request, I have no interest in pursuing this topic further with you, nor in taking your points seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    How about you deal with the search overload that comes with trying to Google the terms "race", "black" "white", and anything associated with pop music. I just don't feel like trying to sift through 100 websites dedicated to Miley Cyrus right now.

    I highly doubt that at the end of that long search I'm going to learn anything I didn't already know.
    This is why I have a problem with what you're doing here. You are working on preconception and biased perception alone, yet speaking as if what you're saying is absolute truth.

    You made several claims.
    I challenged them and asked for data.
    It is NOT a valid response to reply, "I don't feel like searching, and I doubt I would learn anything if I did."
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    Since when was rock and roll music a white musical form anyway.
    "I almost went to bed
    without remembering
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    I put in the button-hole
    of your green sweater

    and how i kissed you then
    and you kissed me
    shy as though I'd
    never been your lover "
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Kojax - I notice that you've merely evaded every request I put to you to share actual data in support of your assertions. Until you comply with this reasonable and relatively simple request, I have no interest in pursuing this topic further with you, nor in taking your points seriously.

    That's because it's an insane hassle to try and find statistics on anything music related. You just have to choose your search terms really really carefully or you get nothing but pop articles.

    I did find statistics for rap. Not the most academic source here, but I take what I can get:
    http://www.csupomona.edu/~rrreese/HIPHOP.HTML

    According to this article, 75% of the rap audience is non-black. I'll post other stuff if I find it.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    How about you deal with the search overload that comes with trying to Google the terms "race", "black" "white", and anything associated with pop music. I just don't feel like trying to sift through 100 websites dedicated to Miley Cyrus right now.

    I highly doubt that at the end of that long search I'm going to learn anything I didn't already know.
    This is why I have a problem with what you're doing here. You are working on preconception and biased perception alone, yet speaking as if what you're saying is absolute truth.

    You made several claims.
    I challenged them and asked for data.
    It is NOT a valid response to reply, "I don't feel like searching, and I doubt I would learn anything if I did."
    Confirmation bias, or any other kind of bias, only matters if it's close enough to be wrong about. If I'm looking at an ant and an elephant, and may confirmation bias makes me feel inclined to downplay the size of the elephant..... that isn't going to lead me to mistakenly conclude that the ant is bigger.

    And yes. On a site where I'm posting for fun, any kind of search that would require more than a half hour of time is too much to ask. Do it yourself if you are the one in need of certainty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    it's an insane hassle to try and find statistics on anything music related.
    If this is the case, then why are you not conceding that you've merely offered anecdotal opinion above? Why are you not acknowledging that you are unsure of the truth of your previous comments, specifically because "it's an insane hassle to try and find statistics on anything music related?"


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    You just have to choose your search terms really really carefully or you get nothing but pop articles.
    If this is the case, then why are you not conceding that you've merely offered anecdotal opinion above? Why are you not acknowledging that you are unsure of the truth of your previous comments, specifically because "when looking for this information you get nothing but pop articles?"


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I did find statistics for rap. Not the most academic source here, but I take what I can get:
    http://www.csupomona.edu/~rrreese/HIPHOP.HTML

    According to this article, 75% of the rap audience is non-black. I'll post other stuff if I find it.
    You're right. That's not even close to an academic source. If this is the case, then why are you not conceding that you've merely offered anecdotal opinion above? Why are you not acknowledging that you are unsure of the truth of your previous comments, specifically because your source "is not the most academic," and only applies to one type of music, and is not a representative population of those who listen to that music?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    How about you deal with the search overload that comes with trying to Google the terms "race", "black" "white", and anything associated with pop music. I just don't feel like trying to sift through 100 websites dedicated to Miley Cyrus right now.

    I highly doubt that at the end of that long search I'm going to learn anything I didn't already know.
    This is why I have a problem with what you're doing here. You are working on preconception and biased perception alone, yet speaking as if what you're saying is absolute truth.

    You made several claims.
    I challenged them and asked for data.
    It is NOT a valid response to reply, "I don't feel like searching, and I doubt I would learn anything if I did."
    Confirmation bias, or any other kind of bias, only matters if it's close enough to be wrong about.
    And since you're obviously working from zero non-anecdotal data, and relying solely on your own personal experience in your own tiny portion of the world, how do you know it it's not "close enough to be wrong about," that it doesn't matter?

    You don't. That's my point.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If I'm looking at an ant and an elephant, and may confirmation bias makes me feel inclined to downplay the size of the elephant..... that isn't going to lead me to mistakenly conclude that the ant is bigger.
    False analogy. With this thread, you've been trying to speak on the issue of trends in music preference, how those trends vary by skin color, and then further making broad assertions about the population as a whole, and all based on your personal prejudices, anecdotes, limited experience and limited exposure, and additionally without a valid dataset before you.

    A closer analogy would be that you once saw one elephant eating a green apple, and hence you make the claim that all elephants prefer green apples over red apples, and then you add without justification that ants are better than elephants because they seem to eat all types of apples.

    It's bullshit, mostly because you're doing little more than pulling this stuff out of your ass.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    And yes. On a site where I'm posting for fun, any kind of search that would require more than a half hour of time is too much to ask. Do it yourself if you are the one in need of certainty.
    You made the claims. You were the one challenged. You either support your claims, or you concede that you cannot and that you're quite possibly rather wrong. That's how science works. I don't care how much fun you're here to have.

    You made several claims. I asked you to support them, as I saw them as flawed and quite likely wrong / based on anecdote and confirmation bias alone.

    Now, it's time for you to do so. If you're unable or unwilling it's time for you to retract them, or to state openly that you're using little more than biased personal opinion and that your points should be seen as unsupported by evidence.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Since when was rock and roll music a white musical form anyway.
    That's right. The super-myopic , inward looking, parochial WASP culture adapted, and now makes frequent use of an African music form. But that's probably the only time in the culture's whole history it ever once learned anything from another culture, right? Because we're so determined to ignore everything they have to teach us.
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    It's not an African musical form either.

    It's an American musical form that arose out of several different popular musical genres in the US.

    I.e. when Chuck Berry incorporated country and rhythm and blues elements into his music, he was displaying that African Americans were totally willing to incorporate white musical forms.

    Not to mention the fact that gospel music was introduced to African Americans from the English Protestant church traditions.

    Moreover, anyone who wants to take the time to look at the origins of hip hop music, can see numerous influences of "white music" being incorporated.

    Here is Africa Bambaata sampling Kraftwerk.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lDCYjb8RHk

    Fab Five Freddie worked on this track with Blondie. (Fab Five Freddie also used to rap in French)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHCdS7O248g

    Rap music is certainly associated with African American culture, but close inspection of it will show heavy cross influence from European electronica and even more recently from rock music by several rap artist.

    Lupe Fiasco for example samples indie rock band Modest Mouse in this track:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmp6zIr5y4U


    Edit: Moreover, I would contend that hip-hop will show stronger correlation with urban and club culture than it will with black culture. The mass popularity of hip hop on a commercial level just has to do with trends in popular music, before you know it we'll be back to 80s style electro-pop.
    "I almost went to bed
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    I put in the button-hole
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    and how i kissed you then
    and you kissed me
    shy as though I'd
    never been your lover "
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    I guess there is no African American culture apart from white culture. That's quite a problem then, given the history.

    You think maybe the fear for "African American" culture then is that by crossing over into the WASP culture they'll just be changing from oppressee to oppressor? Some things I've read about Native American groups on the reservations indicated that those Native Americans who decided to cooperate with the US government and serve as police, and etc, were often worse than White people in terms of how much they exploited their fellow Natives.

    Maybe it's a similar feeling for African Americans? Maybe there's a feeling that black people who join the white culture will turn on their peers and start being oppressive?

    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    before you know it we'll be back to 80s style electro-pop.
    God help us all.
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    I want to thank you, kojax, for doing doing such a fantastic job of missing the point about how the culture is not tied to the skin color, but instead more primarily to the local community, SES, family structure, and other similar variables. Thank you very much, indeed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I want to thank you, kojax, for doing doing such a fantastic job of missing the point about how the culture is not tied to the skin color, but instead more primarily to the local community, SES, family structure, and other similar variables. Thank you very much, indeed.
    Well, thank you inow. I do try. Oh, sorry. I'm not kojax.

    Anyhoo, Herbie Hancock rulez beyotchees!;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkDsvm1CMuo&feature=fvsr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I want to thank you, kojax, for doing doing such a fantastic job of missing the point about how the culture is not tied to the skin color, but instead more primarily to the local community, SES, family structure, and other similar variables. Thank you very much, indeed.
    I don't mention the point because I'm quite aware of it and I think people who've read my other posts on other threads already know that about me. Skin color need not dictate culture, but certain cultures do dictate skin color. There is an "African American" culture which claims dominion exclusively over the black race, and will not accept anyone into its membership unless they are of African American descent. It's a real culture. It actually exists.

    Do I think that culture should exist? No. I think such cultural groups exacerbate racial tensions needlessly and should die off (in the sense of losing all of their adherents, not anyone actually dying.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Skin color need not dictate culture, but certain cultures do dictate skin color. There is an "African American" culture which claims dominion exclusively over the black race, and will not accept anyone into its membership unless they are of African American descent. It's a real culture. It actually exists.
    Wow, I didn't know that.
    Where can I learn more?
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    My point is that lots of cultural groups are racist in favor of a race. Ask any white person who's been to prison.

    WASP has learned to have open membership. Anyone who wants to adopt the cultural traits can join now. But,.... unfortunately that's not enough for some people.

    Ask yourself: why is Israel allowed to maintain a full on apartheid state?
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    I'd rather you answer GiantEvil's request first by showing us where we can learn more... instead of continuing to move forward as if your assertion (which has been repeatedly challenged) should be treated as a given. You said (and I quote) that "lots of groups" do this, so it shouldn't be hard for you to address the request.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I'd rather you answer GiantEvil's request first by showing us where we can learn more... instead of continuing to move forward as if your assertion (which has been repeatedly challenged) should be treated as a given. You said (and I quote) that "lots of groups" do this, so it shouldn't be hard for you to address the request.
    I think what you're trying to do is exploit the issue of this being a taboo subject that most of academia won't touch with a ten foot pole. There isn't a lot of solid research for or against my position. (If there isn't more on one side then another, then I consider myself free to hold whatever opinion I would care to) In order to actually compile statistics, white people would have to attempt to join cultural institutions considered to be "african american" in nature. Then black people would have to attempt to join institutions considered "white", and then the level of success or failure would have to be quantified.

    I hypothesize that the black people joining white institutions would have a much easier time in that test. Would you care to refute my hypothesis?

    This could become a "chicken-egg" thing if you want it to. We could argue that no discussion is possible until tests are done, but also no tests are likely to be done until the topic is first being discussed...... At this point, all I'm really going off of is watching comedy sketches such as "undercover brother" and certain other programs on comedy central that openly make fun of white people/culture on TV and in movies, and then chuckling to myself at the likelihood of a similar program directed at mocking black people being allowed to air. Or observing the openly racist policies of Israel, and how little criticism they draw from the industrialized world over it. What is allowed to be broadcast, and what you can get sued over has to be good indication of .....something.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I'd rather you answer GiantEvil's request first by showing us where we can learn more... instead of continuing to move forward as if your assertion (which has been repeatedly challenged) should be treated as a given. You said (and I quote) that "lots of groups" do this, so it shouldn't be hard for you to address the request.
    I think what you're trying to do is exploit the issue of this being a taboo subject that most of academia won't touch with a ten foot pole.
    No, I'm trying to get you to back-up your assertions using evidence. Now, will you please do that?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    There isn't a lot of solid research for or against my position.
    I agree. Now, can you see why I'm struggling so much to accept as valid all of the various comments and assertions you've been making? I sincerely hope you do. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but instead to illuminate the blindspots you have, to get you to be more scientific (given that this is, after all, a science forum), and potentially to even help you maintain a modicum of credibility as you interact with folks in these threads.

    Look... You agree yourself that the research isn't there. Ipso facto, (whether you realize it or not) my previous comments about how you're relying on little more than personal anecdote and confirmation bias to make broad sweeping generalizations throughout this thread has just been acknowledged and conceded... by you. Case closed. End of story. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I hypothesize that the black people joining white institutions would have a much easier time in that test. Would you care to refute my hypothesis?
    Have you encountered comments in science about the burden of proof? I really don't give a rat's dick about refuting your hypothesis, as that's not my role. It's up to you to supply evidence in support of it if you want it to be accepted as valid in a discussion like this... It's up to you to do the legwork if you want to be taken seriously. The onus is on you to support your hypothesis with data, not on me to refute it.

    If you put forth some actual data in support of your position, then we can have a reasonable discussion with one another about something specific. I'd be very interested to review and learn from it. However, if you continue putting forth little more than your own biased personal opinion and expecting me to take them as gospel, I assure you that I will continue to find your comments almost wholly without merit, not worthy of my (or anyone else's) time, and I will continue to challenge them at every turn.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    At this point, all I'm really going off of is watching comedy sketches such as "undercover brother" and certain other programs on comedy central that openly make fun of white people/culture on TV and in movies, and then chuckling to myself at the likelihood of a similar program directed at mocking black people being allowed to air.
    And yet you want to be taken seriously by people with a scientific bent when you use that dataset to inform all of your conclusions...
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    You're getting hung up on one question, and not moving onto the next, more important question. Obviously some cultures are racist. It would be absurdly improbable for every culture on all of the entirety of planet Earth to have become perfectly non-racist in the last half century. If your position is that this has occurred, then I have to say the burden of evidence is on you.

    . Also I'm not suggesting that every group that calls itself an "African American" cultural group is identical. Certainly some behave one way and other behave another way. In my experience delivering pizzas in Portland, I often found that black people who were visiting from out of town, like from other states or other cities didn't treat me in the least racist way. The behavior seemed to be specific to black people in Portland Oregon.

    So, now having qualified the topic, narrowing it to specific pockets of groups of people who quite clearly maintain a racist view toward me, what obligation do I have to welcome those people into my acquaintance? When I can tell that a person is from such a subgroup, is it fine for me to not want to engage them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    You're getting hung up on one question, and not moving onto the next, more important question. Obviously some cultures are racist. It would be absurdly improbable for every culture on all of the entirety of planet Earth to have become perfectly non-racist in the last half century. If your position is that this has occurred, then I have to say the burden of evidence is on you.
    It's a good thing that's not my position then. My position is simple. You need to supply evidence for your claims, as you've made several which are quite probably wrong and based on your own non-representative sample.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Also I'm not suggesting that every group that calls itself an "African American" cultural group is identical. Certainly some behave one way and other behave another way. In my experience delivering pizzas in Portland, I often found that black people who were visiting from out of town, like from other states or other cities didn't treat me in the least racist way. The behavior seemed to be specific to black people in Portland Oregon.
    You are missing the point. It's not behavior of black people you saw. It's behavior of local communities and neighborhoods who happen to have a population with different melanin content. You even contradict yourself by suggesting it's not related to skin color in one sentence, then suggesting it is in the next.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    So, now having qualified the topic, narrowing it to specific pockets of groups of people who quite clearly maintain a racist view toward me, what obligation do I have to welcome those people into my acquaintance?
    Who ever suggested you had this obligation? Now I'm really confused, and you seem to be going off on something you think I said... even though I didn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    When I can tell that a person is from such a subgroup, is it fine for me to not want to engage them?
    You can choose to engage or not engage any damned thing you want. I'm still unsure what your point is.

    I was challenging your generalizations and assertions for lack of evidence and likelihood of inaccuracy... Nothing more.
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    You know kojax, I was on your side through all this argument because iknow displays the typical pompous arrogance of someone who thinks they are better than you because they are "politically correct" and so have no trouble being intolerant of other's opinions and calling them names, like bigot, as if you're not entiteled to an opinion, but....

    You lost me when you said that 'Israel is allowed to maintain a full on apartheid state'. Last I checked, arabs in Israel are accorded full rights, they can vote, buy property, get educated, even run for political office. As a matter of fact there are several Arabs in Israel's DEMOCRATIC parliament. Maybe my definition of apartheid is different from yours, but you should explain what exactly you mean by apartheid. And maybe you could explain it standing in the middle of the street, in a city, in one of the countries surrounding Israel, wether it be Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt, while wearing one of those little black beanie caps ( don't know what they're called ) that Jews wear. And see what rights those non-apartheid states ( by your definition ) grant you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    You know kojax, I was on your side through all this argument because iknow...
    It's iNow, not iKnow.


    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    ...displays the typical pompous arrogance of someone who thinks they are better than you because they are "politically correct" and so have no trouble being intolerant of other's opinions and calling them names, like bigot, as if you're not entiteled to an opinion, but....
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. This has nothing to do with being "politically correct." It has everything to do with ensuring that our comments are rooted in reality and that we have data and evidence in support of our assertions... especially when those assertions generalize about an entire population based on a completely unrelated physical trait.

    Why I have to explain this is beyond me. You cannot invalidate my point by calling me PC and then ignoring the actual merit in what I'm saying and the position I'm expressing.

    If he were making similar comments about all people with brown hair, you'd immediately agree with me. However, since his comments relate to people with brown skin, he's somehow more correct? Seriously??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migl
    You lost me when you said that 'Israel is allowed to maintain a full on apartheid state'.
    Google search on "Israeli apartheid"; http://www.google.com/search?aq=1&oq...aeli+apartheid
    A local news story; http://www.salem-news.com/articles/f...seasons-we.php
    Link to website from top of google search page on "Jewish voices against"; http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
    Quote Originally Posted by Migl
    while wearing one of those little black beanie caps ( don't know what they're called ) that Jews wear.
    It's known as a kippah, or sometimes yarmulke.
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    Inow, We have had differences in the past but I assure you, I respect your opinion, your facts and the clarity of your argument , although calling kojax a bigot does not have

    ' everything to do with ensuring that our comments are rooted in reality and that we have data and evidence in support of our assertions'

    It just strikes me as name calling meant to shut up opposing viewpoints.

    Giant Evil, I really don't care that some Israeli Jews think their state is apartheid. I define apartheid as one group of people having more rights than another, or denying certain rights to one group but not another ( as was the case in South Africa ). My assertion is that Israel is the only state in the area which doesn't practise the above defined system of apartheid.
    Yet they are the only ones who are villified and protested for it. Could it be because they allow people to have opinions and protest. Like I said, just try that in Syria.

    Certain groups, by their tolerance allow for differing opinions. The Canadian government recently gave a 'punk' rock band money to produce an album which looks lihe a bible but is called 'Holy S**t'. There has been no rioting in the streets and noone has been killed. I wonder what would have happened had there been an mage of Muhammad shown the same disrespect.

    I hope you don't now call me a bigot, Inow, because I don't have numbers to back that up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Inow, We have had differences in the past but I assure you, I respect your opinion, your facts and the clarity of your argument , although calling kojax a bigot does not have

    ' everything to do with ensuring that our comments are rooted in reality and that we have data and evidence in support of our assertions'

    It just strikes me as name calling meant to shut up opposing viewpoints.
    Okay, but here's what I said in context:

    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    You REALLY need to please stop making such stupid generalizing inaccurate comments. I'm truly rather sorry to have to tell you this, but the myopia is yours.

    Either you are just lacking in experience, or you're a bigoted fool. I know you could technically be both, but I'm trying to cut you some slack here.

    I then later further refined my position as he continued responding. He's got zero data other than... by his own admission... what he's seen on "Undercover Brother" and other similar personal, limited, unrepresentative anecdote. And, you have the audacity to suggest I'm out of line for pointing this out when he makes broad sweeping generalizations based on such a ridiculous dataset? The mind continues to boggle...



    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    I hope you don't now call me a bigot, Inow, because I don't have numbers to back that up.
    Nah. I won't call you a bigot. I'll just suggest you're being an ignorant ass for asserting something as fact when it is actually just personal opinion. You're welcome to your own opinions, but when you start drawing conclusions and asserting things about large populations you need to base that upon empirical data which is a representative cross-section of the population being described.


    "Hey look! That girl over their next to me has a blue shirt. I saw a girl two days ago also wearing a blue shirt AND I saw a tv shirt where three girls all had blue shirts on! It's obvious that all girls have to wear blue shirts because red shirts are communist. Now, since girls are not communist, let's assume...<insert random nonsense which breaks the bullshitometer here>"

    How is this any different than what you fellas are doing?
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    When I passed my baccalaureat in 1981 (the exam at the end of high school in France), 2 of the subjects in philosophy were:
    "Can we see the things the way they are ?"
    "Is an example a proof ?"

    I think the protagonists of this thread, especially kojax, should meditate on these 2 sentences which were given to us when we were just 17-18.

    An example can be used as a counter-proof, to show a theory can be falsified. That's all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Inow, We have had differences in the past but I assure you, I respect your opinion, your facts and the clarity of your argument , although calling kojax a bigot does not have

    ' everything to do with ensuring that our comments are rooted in reality and that we have data and evidence in support of our assertions'

    It just strikes me as name calling meant to shut up opposing viewpoints.

    Giant Evil, I really don't care that some Israeli Jews think their state is apartheid. I define apartheid as one group of people having more rights than another, or denying certain rights to one group but not another ( as was the case in South Africa ). My assertion is that Israel is the only state in the area which doesn't practise the above defined system of apartheid.
    Yet they are the only ones who are villified and protested for it. Could it be because they allow people to have opinions and protest. Like I said, just try that in Syria.

    Certain groups, by their tolerance allow for differing opinions. The Canadian government recently gave a 'punk' rock band money to produce an album which looks lihe a bible but is called 'Holy S**t'. There has been no rioting in the streets and noone has been killed. I wonder what would have happened had there been an mage of Muhammad shown the same disrespect.

    I hope you don't now call me a bigot, Inow, because I don't have numbers to back that up.
    So you know all about Israel, but you don't know what a yarmulke is?
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    True to form as always, iknow ( I like mispelling your name cause it bothers you ). I may not have hard numbers to back up my assertions, but I don't resort to calling people names when I can't make a proper argument. Or did I take 'ignorant ass ' out of context??

    Giant Evil, I don't know all about Israel ( and I'm not Jewish ), but at least I recognise that fact. All my arguments are based on personal observation ( unbiased news and plenty of reading ) and opinion. Last time I checked that was called doing research, and my point still stands; Israel provides more rights for Arabs than surrounding Arab states provide for Jews. Dispute that !

    On the other hand if you want quantifiable proofs and numbers, I guess you have to talk to Iknow, since he knows everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    All my arguments are based on personal observation
    So you have visited the middle east, particularly Israel and one or more of the surrounding countries?

    Google search of "news israelis killed by palestinians"; http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...y+palestinians

    Google search of "news palestinians killed by israelis"; The URL is too huge to paste. You'll just have to manually Google "news palestinians killed by israelis"
    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Giant Evil, I really don't care that some Israeli Jews think their state is apartheid.
    So your'e telling me that your personal observations of Faux News are more legitimate than the personal observations of Jews in Israel?
    Really? Give me a freaking break!
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    GiantEvil, I don't get Fox News in my area.

    Google Jewish suicide bombers detonating themselves in palistine or any other Arab state. Or rockets fired into another country ? How many results do you get ? Thats right, none. You fail to realise that an act of war has consequences and that for some reason Israel is the only state that gets reprimanded for 'disproportionate' retaliation. For deterrence to be effective retaliation cannot be proportionate. But many more intelligent people than us have been arguing about this for 60 yrs and will continue to do so far in the future. But this has nothing to do with my original point, so...

    Back to my original point, are you disputing the fact that Arabs living in Israel can become Israeli citizens? And can then vote in democratic elections ? And can run for office? Are you disputing the fact that there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament ? And that these Israeli Arabs can get an education ? And well paying Jobs?

    If you are then maybe you should start watchimg Fox News since your current news source isn't up to the job of providing accurate information. As a matter of fact A lJazeera can probably verify the above stated facts.

    You want a freakin' break ? Here's one... GET A CLUE BEFORE YOU GET AN OPINION !
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Back to my original point, are you disputing the fact that Arabs living in Israel can become Israeli citizens? And can then vote in democratic elections ? And can run for office? Are you disputing the fact that there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament ? And that these Israeli Arabs can get an education ? And well paying Jobs?
    Well, I'm going to follow your example and express an opinion without providing any supporting links or references; Tokens to provide plausible deniability for war crimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    GET A CLUE BEFORE YOU GET AN OPINION !
    SEE, I CAN YELL TOO! IN COLOR! HAH!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    GiantEvil, I don't get Fox News in my area.

    Google Jewish suicide bombers detonating themselves in palistine or any other Arab state. Or rockets fired into another country ? How many results do you get ? Thats right, none. You fail to realise that an act of war has consequences and that for some reason Israel is the only state that gets reprimanded for 'disproportionate' retaliation. For deterrence to be effective retaliation cannot be proportionate. But many more intelligent people than us have been arguing about this for 60 yrs and will continue to do so far in the future. But this has nothing to do with my original point, so...
    Agreed. Proportional retaliation does nothing. Disproportional retaliation escalates until one or both sides realize they aren't going to be able to achieve the next step up.

    The problem is that Israel retaliates against guilty and non-guilty parties alike, while their opponent often purposefully attacks non-guilty parties, just to get them riled up. It's the same problem the USA faces in Afghanistan and Iraq, but at least the USA makes a reasonable effort (often at the cost of our own soldiers lives) to discriminate between the two types of target.


    Back to my original point, are you disputing the fact that Arabs living in Israel can become Israeli citizens? And can then vote in democratic elections ? And can run for office? Are you disputing the fact that there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament ? And that these Israeli Arabs can get an education ? And well paying Jobs?
    I'm curious how this works. Why doesn't every Palestinian apply for and receive citizenship status then?

    One would expect that every human being born on Israeli soil would be a citizen, which is how countries like the USA approach the issue. Israel claims Gaza and the West Bank as Israeli soil, so it seems somewhat paradoxical that the majority of human beings born in those regions are not full citizens. If they were to oh... say,.... let go of their claim on the land, it might be a little easier to understand.

    Except for this I guess:

    http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/p...jII5LSRVqVqW9g

    Revised borders are dangerous, because...... somebody with enough money to post an add said so, and we all know that people with money never lie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    True to form as always, iknow ( I like mispelling your name cause it bothers you ).
    No worries, asshat. It speaks primarily to your lack of integrity... As does this:


    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    I may not have hard numbers to back up my assertions, but...
    But nothing. That's all you need to say to be disregarded.
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    Inow, political discussion isn't always approachable via numbers. Sometimes the question is just too subjective to get a reliable response from polling, or the question is one that would be difficult to poll for. Sometimes polls are still done, but you can't take them seriously because they have deep inherent flaws in their approach. If you set accurate polling as a requirement, you could easily create a situation where over half of all political events are totally un-discussable.

    But, you're right that numbers should be presented when they are possible to obtain. (If there's some question as to the truth of a statement). Still..... I'm not going to try and run down numbers on how many African American people buy Taylor Swift CD's.

    Also, I do apologize from earlier that I was too broad in saying "African American culture". I should have said "the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon" since that's the only cultural group within the larger group that I am familiar with. As I mentioned earlier, I often got the most friendly and positive interactions with African American customers who were visiting from out of town. The difference was almost uncanny. I can't say that the whole of African American culture nationwide is racist against white people.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Inow, political discussion isn't always approachable via numbers.
    I agree, but assertions and conclusions regarding large swaths of the population are.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Sometimes the question is just too subjective to get a reliable response from polling, or the question is one that would be difficult to poll for.
    I agree, which is why it's so important to avoid drawing conclusions based on anecdote and biased samples.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Sometimes polls are still done, but you can't take them seriously because they have deep inherent flaws in their approach.
    I agree, but that's why it's important to only use data which is methodologically valid and exercise caution when (yep, you guessed it) drawing conclusions based on that data.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If you set accurate polling as a requirement, you could easily create a situation where over half of all political events are totally un-discussable.
    I understand the point. I would further suggest that most of politics is emotion and logical fallacy and little more than personal preference. Regardless of that, my focus here in this thread has been to encourage caution when drawing conclusions and making broad assertions about populations based on limited data. That has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with being a rational person who thinks critically about issues, and understands the limits of their dataset.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    But, you're right that numbers should be presented when they are possible to obtain.
    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Still..... I'm not going to try and run down numbers on how many African American people buy Taylor Swift CD's.
    And I'm totally okay with that. That's more than fine. I'm just requesting that, since this is the case, you stop putting forth assertions as if you HAD done that already. You can't have it both ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Also, I do apologize from earlier that I was too broad in saying "African American culture". I should have said "the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon" since that's the only cultural group within the larger group that I am familiar with.
    Again, thank you. However (and I hate to do this, I promise), I need to correct you again.

    What you should have said is, "In my opinion, and based on my own limited experience, it seems to me that the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon does X, Y, Z, but I cannot speak to the larger population without first doing a lot of research which I'm not really interested in investing time to do."


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I can't say that the whole of African American culture nationwide is racist against white people.
    Again, we are in agreement.
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    Asshat ???

    Come-on IKNOWnothing, you can do better than that. That's only at the level of a 12 year old. Usually you do at least 13 or 14 yr old level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Asshat ???

    Come-on IKNOWnothing, you can do better than that. That's only at the level of a 12 year old. Usually you do at least 13 or 14 yr old level.
    Ah. Thanks for the vote of confidence. It really means a lot to me.
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    Sure, don't mention it.
    Incidentally, I'm at work, trying to while away the time with agood argument. What do you do that you can also be online this early in the morning ( assuming you're in the Easten time zone ).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Incidentally, I'm at work, trying to while away the time with agood argument. What do you do that you can also be online this early in the morning ( assuming you're in the Easten time zone ).
    Your question is addressed by my profile, including time zone. Enjoy.
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    So, like I said, what is it you do. Or do you just get up early to bust my ba**s.
    Seriously.
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  62. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    So, like I said, what is it you do.
    As it says, I'm currently a project manager.
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    Well, as I'm sure you've noticed, I can sometimes be stubborn and argumentative. Unfortunately I'm also very opinionated.

    I do enjoy agood argument and as I've said, I respect your opinion and views after having read some of them on the physics and other forums.
    Keep in mind that when dealing with social situations, statistics and numbers can be skewed subjectively as much as opinions. I would hope that you respect and tolerate my, and Kojax' , opinion and our right to have one. So, please, no more name calling.

    And this is as close to an apology for my behaviour as you're going to get.
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    Well thanks, but I wasn't asking for an apology. I was asking for people to avoid making broad generalizing assertions about entire populations based on nonrepresentative datasets and personal bias.
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    Fine, but I'm not apologising for my valid opinion, Just the way I argumentatively presented it. I could have been more civil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    Giant Evil, I don't know all about Israel ( and I'm not Jewish ), but at least I recognise that fact. All my arguments are based on personal observation ( unbiased news and plenty of reading ) and opinion. Last time I checked that was called doing research, and my point still stands; Israel provides more rights for Arabs than surrounding Arab states provide for Jews. Dispute that !
    Lebanon has constitutional freedom of religion. Although, this is complicated by their "confessional" system of government that makes citizens declare their religion because the constitution, as a compromise, assures equal representation in government between Christians and Muslims.

    Moreover, the US state departments own reports on religious freedom finds that Israel is plagued with the same kinds of religious tensions as its neighbours. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13997.htm

    Jordan also has legal freedom of religion, although converting from Islam is illegal in the country, it is not generally enforced.

    None of these countries are particular beacons of civil liberties, nor are they the worse offenders either. Kojax' point on the status of the Palestinians living in the occupied territories is equally valid. Israel has on numerous occasions instituted blockades that have prevented people from going to work and prevented food and medical supplies from entering. They haven't exactly shied away from targeting civilians. The only difference is the way they kill innocent people. Embargo on medical supplies or a suicide bomber, what's the difference if they both end up killing innocent civilians?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Sometimes polls are still done, but you can't take them seriously because they have deep inherent flaws in their approach.
    I agree, but that's why it's important to only use data which is methodologically valid and exercise caution when (yep, you guessed it) drawing conclusions based on that data.
    In other words, always assume the Null Hypothesis, which is key to the scientific method.

    The problem is that some things don't fit neatly into the categories you're dividing them into. An observation about the characteristics of the voting public can be deduced from something as simple as looking at how they did vote. Why are TV shows that openly criticize African Americans forbidden, and TV shows that openly criticize white people allowed? Probably because the voting public didn't raise serious objections to the latter.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If you set accurate polling as a requirement, you could easily create a situation where over half of all political events are totally un-discussable.
    I understand the point. I would further suggest that most of politics is emotion and logical fallacy and little more than personal preference. Regardless of that, my focus here in this thread has been to encourage caution when drawing conclusions and making broad assertions about populations based on limited data. That has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with being a rational person who thinks critically about issues, and understands the limits of their dataset.
    Understanding the limits of your dataset doesn't mean you absolutely never say anything at all. It means when you do say something, you say it tentatively, and accept that there are limits on your level of certainty.

    If, for example, I were deciding whether to buy tickets for an outdoor concert in Oregon, the likelihood of that turning out to be a good decision would depend on unforseeable circumstances like rain (and it rains a lot in Oregon.) Choosing to believe that it will or will not rain cannot be proven to be a good or bad decision, and yet I still must make the decision. So also decisions have to be made in the political world, and we can't always know if they're good, but we can still discuss them.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Still..... I'm not going to try and run down numbers on how many African American people buy Taylor Swift CD's.
    And I'm totally okay with that. That's more than fine. I'm just requesting that, since this is the case, you stop putting forth assertions as if you HAD done that already. You can't have it both ways.
    Ok. I'll try and discuss the issue as if there were a strong likelihood of it turning out that Country music has a large African American following.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Also, I do apologize from earlier that I was too broad in saying "African American culture". I should have said "the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon" since that's the only cultural group within the larger group that I am familiar with.
    Again, thank you. However (and I hate to do this, I promise), I need to correct you again.

    What you should have said is, "In my opinion, and based on my own limited experience, it seems to me that the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon does X, Y, Z, but I cannot speak to the larger population without first doing a lot of research which I'm not really interested in investing time to do."
    True, but my experience as a delivery driver gave me a reasonably large data set to choose from. I delivered orders to a large number of different customers in the area, always with the same goal of hopefully getting a tip.

    A formal statistical survey would be subject to the possibility of participants giving false answers based on a desire to appear politically correct, and so it's quite possible that such a survey would be much less reliable than my own experience.

    Also, failure to use a proper scientific rigor can skew results slightly, but I don't think it can skew them overwhelmingly. It would be very difficult, for example, to find a 90% correlation in a population that was only 10% given to a certain behavior. Possible, sure, but highly unlikely.




    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I can't say that the whole of African American culture nationwide is racist against white people.
    Again, we are in agreement.
    Additionally, my own experience suggests that Portland is an isolated case.
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  68. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The problem is that some things don't fit neatly into the categories you're dividing them into.
    We are again in violent agreement on this point, so long as you recognize that the same applies to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Understanding the limits of your dataset doesn't mean you absolutely never say anything at all.
    Again, we agree, but who said anything about absolutely never saying anything at all? I know I sure didn't... not even close to that.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Still..... I'm not going to try and run down numbers on how many African American people buy Taylor Swift CD's.
    And I'm totally okay with that. That's more than fine. I'm just requesting that, since this is the case, you stop putting forth assertions as if you HAD done that already. You can't have it both ways.
    Ok. I'll try and discuss the issue as if there were a strong likelihood of it turning out that Country music has a large African American following.
    Well see, it definitely appears to me that despite my repeated attempts to clarify you're still completely oblivious to the central point.

    I'm not asking you to assert the polar opposite of what you previously asserted. I'm asking you to stop pulling these assertions and conclusions out of your colon. You have zero data to work from besides a few personal anecdotes, so it's no better to suggest there is a strong likelihood of country having "a large african-american following" than it is to suggest there isn't.

    Do you know when it's okay to make such an assertion? It's okay when you have a valid sample and have polled a representative cross section of the population, but not before.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Also, I do apologize from earlier that I was too broad in saying "African American culture". I should have said "the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon" since that's the only cultural group within the larger group that I am familiar with.
    Again, thank you. However (and I hate to do this, I promise), I need to correct you again.

    What you should have said is, "In my opinion, and based on my own limited experience, it seems to me that the predominant African American cultural group of Portland, Oregon does X, Y, Z, but I cannot speak to the larger population without first doing a lot of research which I'm not really interested in investing time to do."
    True, but my experience as a delivery driver gave me a reasonably large data set to choose from.
    Sorry, but no. It didn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    A formal statistical survey would be subject to the possibility of participants giving false answers based on a desire to appear politically correct, and so it's quite possible that such a survey would be much less reliable than my own experience.
    Possible, but you can control for these effects with a large enough population. The larger your sample, the more likely the effects you see are valid and significant (with the caveat that you protect from a confirmation bias), and the more likely any noise you see from liars or people providing falsehoods is minimized.
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    I wasn't talking of religious freedoms I_F_TSleepy, since I'm a westerner and don't consider religious freedoms very important. However civil freedoms like ability to vote, run for office and the like are vastly different for Arab citizens of Israel than for Jewish citizens in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, .etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by MigL
    I wasn't talking of religious freedoms I_F_TSleepy, since I'm a westerner and don't consider religious freedoms very important. However civil freedoms like ability to vote, run for office and the like are vastly different for Arab citizens of Israel than for Jewish citizens in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, .etc
    Jews have full rights to political participation in Lebanon. They aren't represented because apparently there are only roughly 100 Jews still living in Lebanon, most having emigrated during the civil war between the Christians and Muslims in the 80s.

    They don't enjoy any less representation in Jordan either, there just simply aren't many Jews in these countries.

    And even Arabs don't have political rights in Syria, they shoot teacher's unions for protesting.
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    im wasp/native american

    id say roman catholics and liberals whites want all the illegals

    most americans dont

    in ireland most people are catholics but are conservative

    same with mexicans

    the idea wasps did more persecuting than others is silly and racist

    chinese killed 50 million

    stalin killed 20 milion

    what do you base your facts or statements on?wishful thinking?
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    wasp nations like finland norway sweden have gone right wing lately and are sending back as many immigrants as they can i think
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  73. #72  
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    Huh?

    First of all, Scandinavians are not WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants), they are Scandinavians. And, Finns are culturally distinct from the Scandinavian countries.

    Secondly, anti-Catholicism is so déclassé, what is this, the 1950s?
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