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Thread: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

  1. #1 Osama Bin Laden is Dead 
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    And apparently, we got him

    Announcement from the White House coming up in minutes....


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    Heard it on the car radio an hour ago. Outstanding !


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    This is just a political operation. By at least 5 times, the allied forces have had Bin Laden at their snipers mercy. Twice with the british special forces, once with the french special forces. They asked to the NATO the authorisation to shoot and it was refused.
    Clearly, the US wanted to have the poliical benefit of this operation, at the right time. It confirms what I was thinking from beginning: Hillary will have been better than Obama as president. US have a blackberry president, nothing else.

    In addition, there is very fuzzy details on his death, they say he is dead but they dropped the body in the sea... Strange. I sound that he was already dead from sickness or old age. Al Qaeda could not claim his death in such non-martyr situation. The Allied forces learned it and got the benefits for the "killing". This is the most likely hypothesis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    I sound that he was already dead from sickness or old age. Al Qaeda could not claim his death in such non-martyr situation.
    Yeah, I suspect there is more tacit collusion of that kind than we'll ever know.

    Anyway a little Napoleon who pretends to have commanded the 9-11 hijackers deserves to die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    This is just a political operation. By at least 5 times, the allied forces have had Bin Laden at their snipers mercy. Twice with the british special forces, once with the french special forces. They asked to the NATO the authorisation to shoot and it was refused.
    Where did you hear this? It doesn't seem like something that would be released to the general public.
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    In addition, there is very fuzzy details on his death, they say he is dead but they dropped the body in the sea... Strange. I sound that he was already dead
    According to Benazir Bhutto, Ben Laden was already dead. And that's several years ago before she was killed. So the whole fuzzy details and getting rid of the body is strange indeed.
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  8. #7  
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    I'm hoping Congress declares a national holiday. I think that would be an awesome message to send.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    This is just a political operation. By at least 5 times, the allied forces have had Bin Laden at their snipers mercy. Twice with the british special forces, once with the french special forces. They asked to the NATO the authorisation to shoot and it was refused.

    Clearly, the US wanted to have the poliical benefit of this operation, at the right time. It confirms what I was thinking from beginning: Hillary will have been better than Obama as president. US have a blackberry president, nothing else.
    One possible reason for that could be if the snipers were not going to be able to recover the corpse. Getting the corpse is almost as important as getting the kill.

    In addition, there is very fuzzy details on his death, they say he is dead but they dropped the body in the sea... Strange. I sound that he was already dead from sickness or old age. Al Qaeda could not claim his death in such non-martyr situation. The Allied forces learned it and got the benefits for the "killing". This is the most likely hypothesis.
    Getting rid of the body is..... so unfortunate..... and yet almost what you would expect now. Couldn't they have at least severed one of his hands or something? Maybe we can get some photos of the corpse?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Getting rid of the body is..... so unfortunate..... and yet almost what you would expect now. Couldn't they have at least severed one of his hands or something? Maybe we can get some photos of the corpse?
    From what I was reading they have NOT yet buried the body at sea. It will be buried at sea so there is no grave to act as a point for extremists to focus around.
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    There is one unofficial picture circulating on the web. But technology is wonderful. Import this picture and launch Google Goggles. And SURPRISE.... You discover that the picture has been circulating on the web for a while. So the US army was forced to admit that the picture is fake.
    Let us be very very careful with this information. I think critical thinking is what we need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    There is one unofficial picture circulating on the web. But technology is wonderful. Import this picture and launch Google Goggles. And SURPRISE.... You discover that the picture has been circulating on the web for a while. So the US army was forced to admit that the picture is fake.
    Let us be very very careful with this information. I think critical thinking is what we need.
    Why would they be "forced to admit" anything about an unofficial picture? I agree about the critical thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    There is one unofficial picture circulating on the web. But technology is wonderful. Import this picture and launch Google Goggles. And SURPRISE.... You discover that the picture has been circulating on the web for a while. So the US army was forced to admit that the picture is fake.
    Let us be very very careful with this information. I think critical thinking is what we need.
    Why would they be "forced to admit" anything about an unofficial picture? I agree about the critical thinking.
    As this such picture has been used by several media organisations including the BBC, CNN, MSNBC etc as an official photo- yet it is not, of course. However, I don't know if the US army was "forced to admit" anything but several media organisations have admitted that that picture is a fake.
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    I heard rumors they took samples for DNA testing.

    Anyway- what happens now? Does Al-Queda get stronger or weaker? Who succeeds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15uliane
    I heard rumors they took samples for DNA testing.

    Anyway- what happens now? Does Al-Queda get stronger or weaker? Who succeeds?
    Personally, I think that things will only get worse from here on for a while- killing Osama will have only strengthened the rest of Al Qaeda's will, many terrorist attacks will be attempted in the near future; it's inevitable...
    "Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway" - R. Feynman
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    Congratulations to the Seals and the administration: amazing job. No thanks to the Pakistanis, apparently.
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    It's a good thing we didn't kill him in the first few months. It would have looked like he was a true martyr and dying was part of his plan. Since he's been hiding from us for nearly 10 years, it would be hard to sell that story now.

    Now he just looks like an idiot who picked a fight he couldn't win. Hopefully, anyway. His death doesn't look like it was particularly brave, at any rate.
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    Ten years toolate. Pointless exercise. No significant effect. Useful for people who wish to delude themselves. Indicative of emotional, not logical thinking on the part of governments. (What a surprise. ).
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    100% agree with you dear colleague. Why do geologists form such an homogenous community of idea around politics, good wines and foods and pretty ladies ? This has to be explained.

    Anyway, about the picture, I don't know how many of you saw cadavers but this is not common to see a cadaver with red lips.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Ten years toolate. Pointless exercise. No significant effect. Useful for people who wish to delude themselves. Indicative of emotional, not logical thinking on the part of governments. (What a surprise. ).
    It is never too late to take down a scum bag like OBL , he is not an untouchable. What we need to do now, is get rid of the hate preacher Anjem Choudary from the UK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    It is never too late to take down a scum bag like OBL , he is not an untouchable. What we need to do now, is get rid of the hate preacher Anjem Choudary from the UK.
    Here is the difficulty. (Several, actually.)
    He is a scumbag who was initially trained and supported by the West.
    He was expressing - all be it inappropriately - a strongly felt sentiment about the negative aspects of Western culture and 'civilisation'.
    His current role had almost certainly diminished to near zero effectiveness, so eliminating him was about as useful burping in an oratorical contest.
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    Biggest effect is psychological. A lot of people are still very deeply wounded mentally by what happened on 9/11, or in the UK, or in Yemen, or all of the school girls he killed, or by the Buddhist statues he blew up, or by any of the other countless atrocities he visited.

    You are right... It's not terribly significant when viewed with a long enough lens. But, for many, it brings a sense of closure, relief, and frankly here in the US a bit of needed boost. Lately, our airwaves have been tied up with poo flinging... Political debate which doesn't even rise to the level of kindergarten... Questions about the illegitimacy of the president, and whether or not he was actually born where all evidence says he was born. This brings a welcome change of subject.

    It's all psychological, and I concede appeals to a basic human desire for revenge, but that doesn't mean it's all bad or all insignificant. Like when a bully keeps stealing your money on the playground, and one day you finally step up and punch him in the throat. Did it really accomplish anything? No, not really, but it changes the tone and the feelings about the situation fairly significantly... especially for those steal healing from mental wounds Osama caused because of his role in causing the deaths of their lost loved ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    His current role had almost certainly diminished to near zero effectiveness, so eliminating him was about as useful burping in an oratorical contest.
    But that's only because of the intensive manhunt, which ended successfully. Since he could not communicate with Al Qaeda without risking exposure, his effectiveness was limited.

    I sense that you are sympathetic towards OBL, and wish he had not been killed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I sense that you are sympathetic towards OBL, and wish he had not been killed.
    I very much doubt this, Harold, and suspect that Ophi probably doesn't care very much one way or the other and is just tired of all of the celebration and jubilee being spammed across every network and airwave.

    Of course Ophi can speak for himself, but I would challenge you heavily on the way you jumped immediately to such a skewed conclusion as if that is the only possibility.
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    Harold,
    inow has understood where I am coming from with precision and exactness. I thank him for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Ten years toolate. Pointless exercise. No significant effect. Useful for people who wish to delude themselves. Indicative of emotional, not logical thinking on the part of governments. (What a surprise. ).

    ...


    He is a scumbag who was initially trained and supported by the West.
    He was expressing - all be it inappropriately - a strongly felt sentiment about the negative aspects of Western culture and 'civilisation'.
    His current role had almost certainly diminished to near zero effectiveness, so eliminating him was about as useful burping in an oratorical contest.
    Osama was never more than a figure head. Nothing I've ever read of him indicates that he was any kind of tactical genius, nor that he even had military training. He was just a rallying point, a local folk hero who had spent his millions of dollars on projects to benefit people poorer than him. It would be like saying that George Cloony is the mastermind behind efforts to stop the slaughters in Sudan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...anitarian_work


    However, his value as a figure head was inestimable. Killing him was a good way of making a political statement.
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    Woo Hoo! Mission accomplished!
    Can we stop sending our friends and family over to die in a shitty sandhole for corporate oil profits now?
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    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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    No. That would require significant investment in (and subsidization of) green energy first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax

    Osama was never more than a figure head. Nothing I've ever read of him indicates that he was any kind of tactical genius, nor that he even had military training. .
    Read more.

    He was part of training by the CIA in the mid-80's as part of the mujahideen and led a company sized tactical unit where he gained a reputation as a superb organizer and courageous leader.

    He was college educated in business and used this knowledge in combination with his natural charisma to orchestrate converting millions of dollars into weaponry and supplies--this was perhaps his largest contribution to fighting the Soviets. He's use the same skills later to build his organization.

    His writings and speeches resonated with Muslims like few others in many generations.

    He was a lot more than just a figurehead and I'm damn glad he's gone.
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    I liked this write up:


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/op...4friedman.html

    We did our part. We killed Bin Laden with a bullet. Now the Arab and Muslim people have a chance to do their part — kill Bin Ladenism with a ballot — that is, with real elections, with real constitutions, real political parties and real progressive politics.

    Yes, the bad guys have been dealt a blow across the Arab world in the last few months — not only Al Qaeda, but the whole rogues’ gallery of dictators, whose soft bigotry of low expectations for their people had kept the Arab world behind. The question now, though, is: Can the forces of decency get organized, elected and start building a different Arab future? That is the most important question. Everything else is noise.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax

    Osama was never more than a figure head. Nothing I've ever read of him indicates that he was any kind of tactical genius, nor that he even had military training. .
    Read more.

    He was part of training by the CIA in the mid-80's as part of the mujahideen and led a company sized tactical unit where he gained a reputation as a superb organizer and courageous leader.

    He was college educated in business and used this knowledge in combination with his natural charisma to orchestrate converting millions of dollars into weaponry and supplies--this was perhaps his largest contribution to fighting the Soviets. He's use the same skills later to build his organization.
    I knew he had skill with finances. I didn't know he had actually done any fighting, so that shows what I know. I wonder if terrorist money will be easier to find now that he's not moving it around?

    Somehow I doubt it. I think there are people much more skillful than him working behind the scenes, but I would be really happy to be wrong about that.

    His writings and speeches resonated with Muslims like few others in many generations.

    He was a lot more than just a figurehead and I'm damn glad he's gone.
    I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't a good figure head. He was a great inspiration to a lot of people. That's why I'm glad we got to put a bullet in him (or two, as the case may be). It sends a message about who to follow.

    Also why I think we should declare a holiday. He can become the next Guy Fawkes. "Remember remember, the 6th of November...." Anybody know a good rhyme for 911?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't a good figure head.
    Figure head is the term I objected too because it's usually attributed to someone, or something which plays little more than a cosmetic role with little actual influence or authority. (taken from the painted mermaids and monsters etc on the prow of ships).
    Osama played a huge role in the spiritual and financial leadership of Al-Qaeda.
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    What would you equate his emotional role to? Would it be like Thomas Paine in the American revolution? (Except Paine didn't directly do any fighting or financing.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

    I'm concerned with his emotional/inspirational role because I think it was the least replaceable one he played. Probably the terrorists have other people with business degrees and combat experience, but they'll have a hard time replacing a legend.

    As for the holiday, I think the more vehemently we express our hatred for him, the more clear it should become to moderate Muslims that our fight is/was against him and not them. It's important that we express that as clearly as we possibly can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    This is just a political operation. By at least 5 times, the allied forces have had Bin Laden at their snipers mercy. Twice with the british special forces, once with the french special forces. They asked to the NATO the authorisation to shoot and it was refused.
    Clearly, the US wanted to have the poliical benefit of this operation, at the right time. It confirms what I was thinking from beginning: Hillary will have been better than Obama as president. US have a blackberry president, nothing else.

    In addition, there is very fuzzy details on his death, they say he is dead but they dropped the body in the sea... Strange. I sound that he was already dead from sickness or old age. Al Qaeda could not claim his death in such non-martyr situation. The Allied forces learned it and got the benefits for the "killing". This is the most likely hypothesis.
    For all that conspiracy thinking, one would suspect that you may also believe they kept the body and dumped a dummy into the sea. Or that the DNA evidence is faked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    In addition, there is very fuzzy details on his death, they say he is dead but they dropped the body in the sea... Strange. I sound that he was already dead
    According to Benazir Bhutto, Ben Laden was already dead. And that's several years ago before she was killed. So the whole fuzzy details and getting rid of the body is strange indeed.
    In such a case it would have been more politic to stage the killing in a remote cave, rather than incite relations between your country and Pakistan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Ten years toolate. Pointless exercise. No significant effect
    Demonstrates the impotence of the prior president relative to the current president.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    It is never too late to take down a scum bag like OBL , he is not an untouchable. What we need to do now, is get rid of the hate preacher Anjem Choudary from the UK.
    Here is the difficulty. (Several, actually.)
    He is a scumbag who was initially trained and supported by the West.
    He was expressing - all be it inappropriately - a strongly felt sentiment about the negative aspects of Western culture and 'civilisation'.
    His current role had almost certainly diminished to near zero effectiveness, so eliminating him was about as useful burping in an oratorical contest.
    It also reignites the conversation as to whether 9-11 brought down the US (economically, as it turns out) or not. It is not a useless exercise to have this conversation.
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    This is an extract from the MailOnline. I just can not believe that these people were given permission to demonstrate. They are very clearly the enemy within.

    On this day of all days! Hundreds of militant Muslims stage mock funeral for Bin Laden outside U.S. embassy in London... as relatives of 7/7 terror attack victims weep at inquest just three miles away

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sy-London.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    This is an extract from the MailOnline. I just can not believe that these people were given permission to demonstrate. They are very clearly the enemy within.

    On this day of all days! Hundreds of militant Muslims stage mock funeral for Bin Laden outside U.S. embassy in London... as relatives of 7/7 terror attack victims weep at inquest just three miles away

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sy-London.html
    I think I spotted Ophiolite in that crowd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    This is an extract from the MailOnline. I just can not believe that these people were given permission to demonstrate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I think I spotted Ophiolite in that crowd.
    For two guys who incessantly claim to so vociferously cherish the ideals on which this nation was founded and the brilliant protection of individual freedoms in this country which we enjoy, you sure do have a paste eating IQ of 3 way of showing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    What would you equate his emotional role to? Would it be like Thomas Paine in the American revolution? (Except Paine didn't directly do any fighting or financing.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

    I'm concerned with his emotional/inspirational role because I think it was the least replaceable one he played. Probably the terrorists have other people with business degrees and combat experience, but they'll have a hard time replacing a legend.
    Paine was certainly unique in his own ways, but you might consider their inspirational role something equal in magnitude to OBLs. Of course the obvious difference is Paine's argument was based in reason from secular philosophy, while OBL's was a combination of Arabic nationalism combined with Islamic superstition. And yes there's no one obvious replacement capable of communicating to the Arabs with the same rhetorical strengths, passion and appeal to the Arab's as OBL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    This is an extract from the MailOnline. I just can not believe that these people were given permission to demonstrate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I think I spotted Ophiolite in that crowd.
    For two guys who incessantly claim to so vociferously cherish the ideals on which this nation was founded and the brilliant protection of individual freedoms in this country which we enjoy, you sure do have a paste eating IQ of 3 way of showing it.
    inow, you are quoting me out of context. What is it with you and all this paste eating ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    inow, you are quoting me out of context.
    How do you figure? Here's your quote in full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    This is an extract from the MailOnline. I just can not believe that these people were given permission to demonstrate. They are very clearly the enemy within.
    You obviously don't appreciate individual freedoms in the way you incessantly claim to. That was the primary point, regardless of how intentionally (or inadvertently) obtuse you remain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    You obviously don't appreciate individual freedoms in the way you incessantly claim to. That was the primary point, regardless of how intentionally (or inadvertently) obtuse you remain.
    You are obviously not aware of the laws restricting speech in UK and Europe. It's not like the US. However, those laws only restrict politically incorrect speech, not speech which openly advocates terrorism. As an example, Angela Merkel was accused of a crime when she said she is glad OBL is dead.
    http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...-homicide.html
    Actually, I don't think it would be a good idea to shut the demonstrations down. I'd rather know what they really think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    those laws only restrict politically incorrect speech, not speech which openly advocates terrorism.
    Wait, what? Muslims staging a mock funeral for Osama Bin Laden speech which openly advocates terrorism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Actually, I don't think it would be a good idea to shut the demonstrations down. I'd rather know what they really think.
    I appreciate you clarifying, but I wonder if you only say this because you see them as an enemy and you want to "allow" them the right of this expression so you can more plainly identify them as targets... as opposed to say protecting the concept of individual freedoms as a goal in itself... recognizing the larger issue and standing up for free speech being allowed even for those with whom we ideologically disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    This is an extract from the MailOnline. I just can not believe that these people were given permission to demonstrate. They are very clearly the enemy within.

    On this day of all days! Hundreds of militant Muslims stage mock funeral for Bin Laden outside U.S. embassy in London... as relatives of 7/7 terror attack victims weep at inquest just three miles awayhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384353/Osama-bin-Laden-mock-funeral-Fury-erupts-outside-US-Embassy-London.html
    Is that good enough ?
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    It is really weird to imagine demonstrators needing permission. Here I thought the UK was as advanced as we are in the USA (perhaps even more so), but I guess they're still living in the stone ages with regard to some things.

    But... the other weird thing is that Muslim activists would choose to hold a mock funeral in the UK outside the US embassy, but not one in the USA itself. They wouldn't need permission, nor would it be illegal in any sense for them to hold one here if they wanted to. Could it be possible that they are actually scared to do something that would offend Americans on our own soil?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    those laws only restrict politically incorrect speech, not speech which openly advocates terrorism.
    Wait, what? Muslims staging a mock funeral for Osama Bin Laden speech which openly advocates terrorism.
    Here is what it said in the article.

    Radicals carrying placards proclaiming 'Islam will dominate the world' branded US leaders 'murderers' and warned vengeance attacks were 'guaranteed'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Actually, I don't think it would be a good idea to shut the demonstrations down. I'd rather know what they really think.
    I appreciate you clarifying, but I wonder if you only say this because you see them as an enemy and you want to "allow" them the right of this expression so you can more plainly identify them as targets... as opposed to say protecting the concept of individual freedoms as a goal in itself... recognizing the larger issue and standing up for free speech being allowed even for those with whom we ideologically disagree.
    Yes it is because I see them as an enemy. It doesn't matter why I support free speech, only that I do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It is really weird to imagine demonstrators needing permission. Here I thought the UK was as advanced as we are in the USA (perhaps even more so), but I guess they're still living in the stone ages with regard to some things.

    But... the other weird thing is that Muslim activists would choose to hold a mock funeral in the UK outside the US embassy, but not one in the USA itself. They wouldn't need permission, nor would it be illegal in any sense for them to hold one here if they wanted to. Could it be possible that they are actually scared to do something that would offend Americans on our own soil?
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Here is what it said in the article.

    Radicals carrying placards proclaiming 'Islam will dominate the world' branded US leaders 'murderers' and warned vengeance attacks were 'guaranteed'.
    Interesting. Reminds me strongly of how the Tea Party speaks of Obama right here in the US. I hope you'll at least be consistent and decry their behavior, as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Actually, I don't think it would be a good idea to shut the demonstrations down. I'd rather know what they really think.
    I appreciate you clarifying, but I wonder if you only say this because you see them as an enemy and you want to "allow" them the right of this expression so you can more plainly identify them as targets... as opposed to say protecting the concept of individual freedoms as a goal in itself... recognizing the larger issue and standing up for free speech being allowed even for those with whom we ideologically disagree.
    Yes it is because I see them as an enemy. It doesn't matter why I support free speech, only that I do.
    Well, IMO it does matter. It suggests to me that I'm more patriotic than you, but no worries.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
    Real americans are not offended by mosques. Only stupid and jingoistic ones. Also, there are already dozens of mosques in that area, and the proposed one you mention is like 4 blocks away. How far away would be good enough for you, Dave? The moon? Neptune? Is there a special spatial limit to your bigotry?

    The US attack was perpetrated by the terrorist community, not the muslim community.
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    [quote="Harold14370"]

    Here is what it said in the article.

    Radicals carrying placards proclaiming 'Islam will dominate the world' branded US leaders 'murderers' and warned vengeance attacks were 'guaranteed'.
    Signs that say "vengeance attacks are guaranteed" would probably exceed the limits of free speech in the USA. You're not allowed to threaten anyone with actual violence. They can shut you down for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It is really weird to imagine demonstrators needing permission. Here I thought the UK was as advanced as we are in the USA (perhaps even more so), but I guess they're still living in the stone ages with regard to some things.

    But... the other weird thing is that Muslim activists would choose to hold a mock funeral in the UK outside the US embassy, but not one in the USA itself. They wouldn't need permission, nor would it be illegal in any sense for them to hold one here if they wanted to. Could it be possible that they are actually scared to do something that would offend Americans on our own soil?
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
    The mosque isn't exactly meant as a shrine to the terrorists, or as an act of provocation. I'm sure moderate Muslims would like to express as clearly as they can that they weren't part of, and did not approve of the 9/11 attacks.

    The people who held a mock funeral for Osama were making it pretty clear they are not moderate Muslims. It's kind of dangerous to make yourself known as a non-moderate Muslim in the USA right now. Certainly if your employer knew that you had been part of such a march, you would be out of a job. Someone would film the protesters' faces and put them on U-Tube, and then people would make it their personal mission to harass the hell out of the participants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    The US attack was perpetrated by the terrorist community, not the muslim community.
    That attack was carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam. You must have your eyes wide shut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    The US attack was perpetrated by the terrorist community, not the muslim community.
    That attack was carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam. You must have your eyes wide shut.
    There's a big difference between Muslims and Muslim extremists. Stop being so prejudice; I'm sure if Christians bombed somewhere in the US, you wouldn't complain abour a church being built there...
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    A Christian did bomb in the U.S., Timothy McVeigh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
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    "Mouront pour des idees, d'accord mais de mort lente" (Georges Brassens)
    (Let's die for ideas, ok, but of slow death)

    I recommend anyone to listen to this song or find the translation of it english.
    "Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté,
    Luxe, calme et volupté."
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    A Christian did bomb in the U.S., Timothy McVeigh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
    Timothy McVeigh did not carry out the Oklahoma City bombing in the name of Christianity. I suggest you read and digest your own wiki link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
    Real americans are not offended by mosques. Only stupid and jingoistic ones. Also, there are already dozens of mosques in that area, and the proposed one you mention is like 4 blocks away. How far away would be good enough for you, Dave? The moon? Neptune? Is there a special spatial limit to your bigotry?
    inow I think Uranus is quite fitting. What do you think ?
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    A pure stave would be the natural response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
    Real americans are not offended by mosques. Only stupid and jingoistic ones. Also, there are already dozens of mosques in that area, and the proposed one you mention is like 4 blocks away. How far away would be good enough for you, Dave? The moon? Neptune? Is there a special spatial limit to your bigotry?
    inow I think Uranus is quite fitting. What do you think ?
    I think you're someone who (as hard as I try) I cannot respect or take seriously. I think your views are myopic, your mind narrow, and the pride you seem to take in your ignorance repugnant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    A Christian did bomb in the U.S., Timothy McVeigh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
    Timothy McVeigh did not carry out the Oklahoma City bombing in the name of Christianity. I suggest you read and digest your own wiki link.
    But he (Timothy McVeigh) was a Christian. I am pointing out the fallacy of your "guilt by association" argument concerning Muslims.
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    I don't like the guilt by association either, but Bid Laden obviously leverages Islamic beliefs on top of Arabic nationalism directly which McVeigh, while Christian doesn't seem to hold that as primary reason.

    A better example might be our deep history of racist terrorism of the past and more recently the anti-abortion violence by the "Army of God" and other organizations.

    Not many Muslims loudly denouncing terrorism or publicly saying Obama's death was a good thing--that's a problem. Islam is a few hundred years behind Christianity in dulling their hate rhetoric.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    A Christian did bomb in the U.S., Timothy McVeigh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
    Timothy McVeigh did not carry out the Oklahoma City bombing in the name of Christianity. I suggest you read and digest your own wiki link.
    But he (Timothy McVeigh) was a Christian. I am pointing out the fallacy of your "guilt by association" argument concerning Muslims.
    He may have been born a Christian, but do you know if he was a practising Christian ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
    Real americans are not offended by mosques. Only stupid and jingoistic ones. Also, there are already dozens of mosques in that area, and the proposed one you mention is like 4 blocks away. How far away would be good enough for you, Dave? The moon? Neptune? Is there a special spatial limit to your bigotry?
    inow I think Uranus is quite fitting. What do you think ?
    I think you're someone who (as hard as I try) I cannot respect or take seriously. I think your views are myopic, your mind narrow, and the pride you seem to take in your ignorance repugnant.
    inow, I stiffed you, get over it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero, it looks very clear to me, that Muslim activists are not scared to offend Americans on their own soil.
    Real americans are not offended by mosques. Only stupid and jingoistic ones. Also, there are already dozens of mosques in that area, and the proposed one you mention is like 4 blocks away. How far away would be good enough for you, Dave? The moon? Neptune? Is there a special spatial limit to your bigotry?
    inow I think Uranus is quite fitting. What do you think ?
    I think you're someone who (as hard as I try) I cannot respect or take seriously. I think your views are myopic, your mind narrow, and the pride you seem to take in your ignorance repugnant.
    inow, I stiffed you, get over it.
    To be honest it looks like your concentrating on a very small part of his original post to avoid responding the larger claim made in the post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

    To be honest it looks like your concentrating on a very small part of his original post to avoid responding the larger claim made in the post.
    Yes, it probably does look like that, but that is something, that most people, posting on political topics have been guilty of at some point.
    Back on topic, OBL is now no more. Who will replace him ? Could it be US-Yemeni cleric and terror suspect Anwar al-Awlaqi ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    He may have been born a Christian, but do you know if he was a practising Christian ?
    Do you know if Osama was a practicing Muslim?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    A Christian did bomb in the U.S., Timothy McVeigh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
    Wow, you are getting a lot of mileage out of that one bombing 16 years ago. So no matter how many churches are burned, trains bombed, airplanes bombed, hotels bombed, etc., it's all balanced out by the Oklahoma bombing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I think you're someone who (as hard as I try) I cannot respect or take seriously. I think your views are myopic, your mind narrow, and the pride you seem to take in your ignorance repugnant.
    He is from Cumbria. You have to make allowances. That used to be part of the Kingdom of Strathclyde i.e. Scotland, but they've been separate for about a millenium and going down hill ever since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I think you're someone who (as hard as I try) I cannot respect or take seriously. I think your views are myopic, your mind narrow, and the pride you seem to take in your ignorance repugnant.
    He is from Cumbria. You have to make allowances. That used to be part of the Kingdom of Strathclyde i.e. Scotland, but they've been separate for about a millenium and going down hill ever since.
    We are going from strength to strength. Here in Carlisle, a citizen was arrested for setting fire to a Koran in the city centre.

    http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/ca...th=home/2.1962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    “Police have seized the remains of the book and a 32-year-old male has been arrested on suspicion of using racially aggravated threatening words or behaviour.
    Is Islam a race?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Wow, you are getting a lot of mileage out of that one bombing 16 years ago. So no matter how many churches are burned, trains bombed, airplanes bombed, hotels bombed, etc., it's all balanced out by the Oklahoma bombing.
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    But he (Timothy McVeigh) was a Christian. I am pointing out the fallacy of your "guilt by association" argument concerning Muslims.
    Church bombings, the KKK did some of those. Christian against Christian violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Church bombings, the KKK did some of those. Christian against Christian violence.
    Well, let's see. Back in the nineties there was a series of suspicious fires in black churches, which you have evidently decided were not only set by the KKK but somehow tied to the KKK's Christian religion. This is equivalent to a Muslim mob in Egypt a just a couple of days ago storming a church, burning it down, and killing 12, and the 40 churches with over 100 dead in Nigeria last month. Yep. Same-o same-o.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Church bombings, the KKK did some of those. Christian against Christian violence.
    Well, let's see. Back in the nineties there was a series of suspicious fires in black churches, which you have evidently decided were not only set by the KKK but somehow tied to the KKK's Christian religion. This is equivalent to a Muslim mob in Egypt a just a couple of days ago storming a church, burning it down, and killing 12, and the 40 churches with over 100 dead in Nigeria last month. Yep. Same-o same-o.
    I was thinking Birmingham, early sixties. The events of the nineties were more likely perpetrated by Neo-Nazi's. Are there enough Coptic's left in Egypt to make a Coptic mob?
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    Killed an old man, surrounded by women and children, and are now cheerfully celebrating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Church bombings, the KKK did some of those. Christian against Christian violence.
    Well, let's see. Back in the nineties there was a series of suspicious fires in black churches, which you have evidently decided were not only set by the KKK but somehow tied to the KKK's Christian religion. This is equivalent to a Muslim mob in Egypt a just a couple of days ago storming a church, burning it down, and killing 12, and the 40 churches with over 100 dead in Nigeria last month. Yep. Same-o same-o.
    First of all, you're mischaracterizing the incident in Egypt, there was fighting on both sides and more than half of those killed were on the Muslim side. You think it is unfair to call KKK instigated violence to be Christian motivated. However, it should be noted that the Christians have largely supported Mubarek in Egypt, so there is plenty of political strife at work in those conflicts as well.

    Likewise, Nigeria is a complicated situation because the Muslims have been there for several hundred years, but Christians arrived with the colonial regime and have wielded disproportionate power in the country. So, there is more to this than just Muslims being bloodthirsty and wanting to aimlessly kill Christians.

    It's easy to make it appear that sectarian violence is never done by Christians if you want to ignore stuff like anti-Muslim violence by Christians in Bosnia and during the Lebanese Civil War. Alternatively, the most populous Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, sees little sectarian violence.

    You're ignoring the socio-political and ethnic issues at hand in those regions. Christians have shown themselves in recent history not to be above sectarian violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero
    After bombing of Dresden (where, according to Vonegut, 250,000 people died) Americans are still occupying Germany.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    First of all, you're mischaracterizing the incident in Egypt, there was fighting on both sides and more than half of those killed were on the Muslim side. You think it is unfair to call KKK instigated violence to be Christian motivated. However, it should be noted that the Christians have largely supported Mubarek in Egypt, so there is plenty of political strife at work in those conflicts as well.
    Yea, the Christians defended themselves from a mob and they opposed the takeover of Egypt by the Islamic Brotherhood. Sure, equal fault all around.
    Likewise, Nigeria is a complicated situation because the Muslims have been there for several hundred years, but Christians arrived with the colonial regime and have wielded disproportionate power in the country. So, there is more to this than just Muslims being bloodthirsty and wanting to aimlessly kill Christians.
    So if there is a country where Christians were there first, they have the right to burn mosques, by your logic.

    It's easy to make it appear that sectarian violence is never done by Christians if you want to ignore stuff like anti-Muslim violence by Christians in Bosnia and during the Lebanese Civil War. Alternatively, the most populous Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, sees little sectarian violence.
    http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/...eligion/421718
    Temanggung, Central Java. The Central Java Police claimed on Wednesday that the attack a day earlier on two churches and a Christian school by Islamic hard-liners was not a religious conflict.

    Central Java Police Chief Insp. Gen. Edward Aritonang said the attack, which also saw two other buildings vandalized, was “purely an act of criminal vandalism.”

    He added the fact that the mob had targeted Christian buildings did not prove that they were hostile to the religion.

    “The mob attacked and destroyed a number of places, including churches, triggered by their dissatisfaction over a verdict handed down to Antonius Richmord Bawengan,” he said.

    “The fact is that the judges in the case handed down the maximum sentence, so the rioting had nothing to do with religious issues.”

    Antonius, a Christian on trial for contempt of Islam, was on Tuesday sentenced to five years in prison by the Temanggung District Court, as per the prosecution’s demand, but the ruling angered hard-line Islamic groups that deemed it too lenient and subsequently went on the rampage.
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  77. #76  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    So if there is a country where Christians were there first, they have the right to burn mosques, by your logic.
    No, I in no way excused the actions. I'm arguing that there is more to the violence than religion, and that the nature of the religion involved has little effect.

    Temanggung, Central Java. The Central Java Police claimed on Wednesday that the attack a day earlier on two churches and a Christian school by Islamic hard-liners was not a religious conflict.

    Central Java Police Chief Insp. Gen. Edward Aritonang said the attack, which also saw two other buildings vandalized, was “purely an act of criminal vandalism.”

    He added the fact that the mob had targeted Christian buildings did not prove that they were hostile to the religion.

    “The mob attacked and destroyed a number of places, including churches, triggered by their dissatisfaction over a verdict handed down to Antonius Richmord Bawengan,” he said.

    “The fact is that the judges in the case handed down the maximum sentence, so the rioting had nothing to do with religious issues.”

    Antonius, a Christian on trial for contempt of Islam, was on Tuesday sentenced to five years in prison by the Temanggung District Court, as per the prosecution’s demand, but the ruling angered hard-line Islamic groups that deemed it too lenient and subsequently went on the rampage.
    The violence is incidental and rare, mosques have been firebombed and vandalized in the West since 2001. These things happen because any populated country will be home to a group of moronic bigots. Maybe Turkey would be a better example than Indonesia.

    The reason why a country like Turkey, Kazakhstan, Albania or Bosnia see less anti-Christian violence is likely because they have a tradition of secularized society. It's not some innate violence in Islam that causes these incidents, it is the lack of secular society and the political situations of the areas that exacerbate the problems. As I said earlier, Christians do engage in sectarian violence.
    "I almost went to bed
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  78. #77  
    Forum Professor Dave Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero
    After bombing of Dresden (where, according to Vonegut, 250,000 people died) Americans are still occupying Germany.
    The Krauts had it coming, and you know it.
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  79. #78  
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    I have just read this story in the MailOnline.

    My father's death was criminal and I may sue the U.S.: Bin Laden's son slams Al Qaeda leader's killing
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...al-sue-US.html

    If this story is true, in which court could he sue the U.S ?
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  80. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    \

    The reason why a country like Turkey, Kazakhstan, Albania or Bosnia see less anti-Christian violence is likely because they have a tradition of secularized society. It's not some innate violence in Islam that causes these incidents, it is the lack of secular society and the political situations of the areas that exacerbate the problems. As I said earlier, Christians do engage in sectarian violence.
    A problem which Islam itself, in turn, exacerbates.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero
    After bombing of Dresden (where, according to Vonegut, 250,000 people died) Americans are still occupying Germany.
    The Krauts had it coming, and you know it.
    I do. I also know that the guy in your avatar totally avoided military service. And his country and yours contributed insignificantly towards defeat of Germany. Did not do much apart from genocidal bombings which were motivated by irrational germanophobic hatred for "Kraut" rather than by meaningful military objectives.
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  82. #81  
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    The problem we've had to deal with from the very beginning politically is how to make it clear to ordinary Muslims that we're not after them, just Osama and his ilk. How we handle his death can have a very big impact on this. We don't want to handle him with the same pandering and exaggerated tolerance that we direct toward the moderates.

    Allowing a Mosque at ground zero = good idea.

    Restraining our joy over Osama's death = bad idea.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  83. #82  
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    After 9/11, and they are getting a mosque at ground zero
    After bombing of Dresden (where, according to Vonegut, 250,000 people died) Americans are still occupying Germany.
    The Krauts had it coming, and you know it.
    I do. I also know that the guy in your avatar totally avoided military service. And his country and yours contributed insignificantly towards defeat of Germany. Did not do much apart from genocidal bombings which were motivated by irrational germanophobic hatred for "Kraut" rather than by meaningful military objectives.
    This topic is about OBL, if you want to have a rant about Dresden and WW2, start a new topic.
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    The US needed to claim him whereas in fact there were two 3 man british SAS teams on the mission, exactly what part they played (if any) is unknown, but almost all SAS speak another language (many are fluent in arabic), and one of them is an experienced field surgeon. Obama has since met these guys whilst in London.

    You can see the original seed here,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunday Times Feb 26th 2006
    This new Phoenix programme is now fully operational and a key element of it is British. A UK squadron of SAS and its navy equivalent SBS, supported by teams from the new special forces intelligence regiments, is operating on both sides of the Afghan- Pakistani border helping the Americans to pursue Bin Laden and his number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri. A reservist squadron from 23 SAS Regiment is also there and another SBS squadron is on the way.
    "You are only intelligent IF you are surrounded by fools, so don't mock them..." [HOME200]
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    Forum Sophomore Eleven's Avatar
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    Which side he was on is beside the point to me.
    He was a war monger, and could not respect life.
    As such, I believe he should have no rights to life himself.
    I'm sure war monger's know what goes around comes around.
    Always take hold of things by the smooth handle.

    An enemy generally says and believes what he wishes.

    Thomas Jefferson
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  87. #86  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven
    Which side he was on is beside the point to me.
    He was a war monger, and could not respect life.
    As such, I believe he should have no rights to life himself.
    Ah... The sweet irony shown by people who fail to self-reflect.


    "He didn't respect life, so he should die.
    He advocated killing, so we should kill him.
    He advocated war, so we should go to war against him.
    "


    My day has just been touched by a gentle facepalm. Thanks.
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  88. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven
    Which side he was on is beside the point to me.
    He was a war monger, and could not respect life.
    As such, I believe he should have no rights to life himself.
    Ah... The sweet irony shown by people who fail to self-reflect.


    "He didn't respect life, so he should die.
    He advocated killing, so we should kill him.
    He advocated war, so we should go to war against him.
    "


    My day has just been touched by a gentle facepalm. Thanks.
    Another way to say that is: the man should reap what he has sown.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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