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Thread: Schachmatt - strategy of a revolution

  1. #1 Schachmatt - strategy of a revolution 
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    A film by Susanne Brandstätter telling how the Romanian revolution was really brought about

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF-LSrsd0fw

    Very, very interesting.


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  3. #2  
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    I know for a fact you have been asked before to actually post some discussion with a topic rather then just a sentence and a link. Its rude to try to drive traffic to other sites by that method.


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  4. #3  
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    Yeah, but Romania is kind of a mess right now, isn't it? I think people focus too much on the overthrow part of a revolution, instead of planning for the aftermath as they go.

    Probably the main reason why the American revolution lead to a good governmental system is because they laid the foundation before they even began the process by electing a Continental Congress. Then there was no question of who should be in charge after the shooting stopped.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    First the poorest are making unrest.
    Then the middle class, if they are feeling threaten before or during the unrest (drop of purchasing power, impoverishing, threaten that unrest will destroy their goods etc...), the middle class, I said, will hijack the power. This is becoming a revolution.

    There is no successful revolution without middle class. And a threaten middle class is the most dangerous social issue.

    See what happened in Russia, France (1789, 1848), in USA (the revolution was a revolt of the middle class against british trade laws...), in the arabian countries presently. It will always be the same.

    This is why also the IMF "structural adjustement program" succeeded so well, they knocked down the middle classes in most african countries and virtually suppressed the risk of any revolution despite the crazy measure the financial institutions were asking.

    Take 2 countries: Nigeria and Ghana. Nigeria has a GDP/inhab. of 2000$/year while Ghana of 1500$. But 28% of ghanaians only are under the poverty line while 75% of nigerians are below. Consequently, despite the appearance, if any of the 2 has a risk of revolution, it is Ghana. Nigeria will be unrests.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Yeah, but Romania is kind of a mess right now, isn't it? I think people focus too much on the overthrow part of a revolution, instead of planning for the aftermath as they go.

    Probably the main reason why the American revolution lead to a good governmental system is because they laid the foundation before they even began the process by electing a Continental Congress. Then there was no question of who should be in charge after the shooting stopped.
    Most know who's going to be in charge. I think you're point is durable revolutions go well beyond figuring out how to run things during the revolution. Ironically your point reminds me that conquering nations make the same mistake--our struggle in Iraq is a good example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Most know who's going to be in charge. I think you're point is durable revolutions go well beyond figuring out how to run things during the revolution. Ironically your point reminds me that conquering nations make the same mistake--our struggle in Iraq is a good example.
    You don't know what you were going to bring in Iraq? Coca-cola, sneakers, and "Kill Bill" by Quentin Tarantino.

    To understand what happened in Iraq you may wish to study Hegel. His master-slave dialectic. The difference between master and slave is in attitude to death. The master looks into the eyes of death. He fights and conquers death. The slave always tries to avoid a confrontation with death. He is afraid of death. And he is afraid of the master, because he sees death in master's eyes.

    Of course, you bring death to Iraqis, but using remote control. In your eyes Iraqis see your fear and in their eyes you see death. You experience a complete perturbation of your entire substance, an absolute dissolution of all your stability. And this state of being is you philosophical nature.

    The paradox is that you set out for conquest while being metaphysical slaves.

    I anticipate a howl of protests, but the ideas are not even mine. You can find similar thoughts in many places of the Internet. Far less polite than my discourse and without any reference to classical German philosophy. But, in essense, the same.

    Regarding Romania, the liberal ideas used to re-organize its economy are as realistic as films by Tarantino. America is still somehow standing because of remnants of Protestant morality.
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    I don't know what you're talking about Simus, but is sure after having lived with the Iraqi people--we fear death a lot more than they do. They sure as heck didn't lose to to the coalition (twice) because of any fear of death. It might be simply a result have having lost so many close to them over the years and having a fatalistic "If Allah wills it," sort of culture.
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  9. #8  
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    If you want a more American spin on Hegle,

    http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/henry.shtml

    Most people remember that last line: "Give me liberty or give me death." I figure that's the great trade off in life. If you want guaranteed survival, you have to be a slave. If you want freedom, then you have to live with the possibility of death. If you want both, then too bad.

    As far as Protestant Morality, I'm not so sure it's based on Christianity so much as on the Viking morality that preceded it. We live in freedom because we are a society of berzerkers who are all to happy to shed blood, or die trying, if we feel like we're being pushed unfairly. Hence the really high gun ownership rate, and murder rate, and consequent incarceration rate. If we're not showing it in Iraq, it's because we're not actually sure we're even right.


    Anyway.... none of this talk would have helped Romania. They're just not culturally similar like that.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If you want a more American spin on Hegle,

    http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/henry.shtml

    Most people remember that last line: "Give me liberty or give me death." I figure that's the great trade off in life. If you want guaranteed survival, you have to be a slave. If you want freedom, then you have to live with the possibility of death. If you want both, then too bad.
    That's why John McCain produced 32 communist propaganda tapes when Vietnamese had shown him a gun?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    As far as Protestant Morality, I'm not so sure it's based on Christianity so much as on the Viking morality that preceded it. We live in freedom because we are a society of berzerkers who are all to happy to shed blood, or die trying, if we feel like we're being pushed unfairly.
    I new it, because when reading your messages I felt like if Huginn was sitting on my shulder.

    Apparantly thats you



    and this is your sister Lynx



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Hence the really high gun ownership rate, and murder rate, and consequent incarceration rate.
    Yeah. Because you are vikings you have several times higher murder rate than Iceland.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If we're not showing it in Iraq, it's because we're not actually sure we're even right.
    A viking can be not sure?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Anyway.... none of this talk would have helped Romania. They're just not culturally similar like that.
    Some are, sdome are not. Watch the video of the murder of comrades Elena and Nicolae by a pack of ferrets.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfDOAP20ASI

    Comrade Elena was not afraid of this gang of enemies of people. "You are not men" - said comrade Elena to these little predators.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If you want a more American spin on Hegle,

    http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/henry.shtml

    Most people remember that last line: "Give me liberty or give me death." I figure that's the great trade off in life. If you want guaranteed survival, you have to be a slave. If you want freedom, then you have to live with the possibility of death. If you want both, then too bad.
    That's why John McCain produced 32 communist propaganda tapes when Vietnamese had shown him a gun?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0
    There's a selective pressure associated with that. Not all POW's were willing to do "whatever it took" to survive. Unfortunately, most of those POW's didn't survive.

    Why do you think this is so embarrassing to him? It's because of the American ethic against cowardice.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Hence the really high gun ownership rate, and murder rate, and consequent incarceration rate.
    Yeah. Because you are vikings you have several times higher murder rate than Iceland.
    Good point, actually. The Scandinavian countries have phenomenally small murder rates. But, in the USA we kill each other like crazy.

    So, what do you attribute the higher murder rate to? Can't really be protestantism. Iceland is 91% protestant. The USA is only 55%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_by_country

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If we're not showing it in Iraq, it's because we're not actually sure we're even right.
    A viking can be not sure?
    Vikings are always sure about everything, right? This is quickly becoming a ninjas/Chuck Norris discussion. The vikings weren't some kind of super magic mighty power warriors, but they did have some interesting ethics and traditions.

    The days of the week are named after Norse gods. We still use Thor's hammer to officiate court proceedings.

    http://www.courts.michigan.gov/lc-ga..._authority.htm

    Tyr's Day, Woden's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_paganism

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Anyway.... none of this talk would have helped Romania. They're just not culturally similar like that.
    Some are, sdome are not. Watch the video of the murder of comrades Elena and Nicolae by a pack of ferrets.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfDOAP20ASI

    Comrade Elena was not afraid of this gang of enemies of people. "You are not men" - said comrade Elena to these little predators.

    One has to admit they died bravely, but it's a different kind of courage than American courage. They still admitted defeat. A similarly idealistic American would not have admitted defeat. They would have defied and mocked the soldiers all the way to their own grave.

    A Romanian about to die admits the enemy has won but insists that they shouldn't have. An American about to die insists that their opponent hasn't won anything yet. It's still on.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Why do you think this is so embarrassing to him? It's because of the American ethic against cowardice.
    John McCain is not John Doe, but a five terms senator and a Republican nominee for presedent. This suggest that cowardice is on the list of American virtues.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    So, what do you attribute the higher murder rate to? Can't really be protestantism. Iceland is 91% protestant. The USA is only 55%.
    You don't know?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Vikings are always sure about everything, right?
    Certainly not unsure when they already started a war.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    One has to admit they died bravely, but it's a different kind of courage than American courage. They still admitted defeat.
    Where did they admit defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    A similarly idealistic American would not have admitted defeat. They would have defied and mocked the soldiers all the way to their own grave.
    Where had you seen this? In Hollywood movies? Actual documentaries of execution of Americans show radically different conduct from the one you described.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Why do you think this is so embarrassing to him? It's because of the American ethic against cowardice.
    John McCain is not John Doe, but a five terms senator and a Republican nominee for presedent. This suggest that cowardice is on the list of American virtues.
    If cowardice were an American virtue, then McCain would have nothing to fear politically from fellow MIA/POW's giving testimony about what he did. Cowards usually sympathize with other cowards.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    So, what do you attribute the higher murder rate to? Can't really be protestantism. Iceland is 91% protestant. The USA is only 55%.
    You don't know?
    I don't know what you attribute it to.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    One has to admit they died bravely, but it's a different kind of courage than American courage. They still admitted defeat.
    Where did they admit defeat?
    They admitted defeat when they started the morality speech stuff. Americans don't go that direction when they're about to die. It borders on a plea for mercy.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    A similarly idealistic American would not have admitted defeat. They would have defied and mocked the soldiers all the way to their own grave.
    Where had you seen this? In Hollywood movies? Actual documentaries of execution of Americans show radically different conduct from the one you described.
    It's kind of a matter of interpretation. If you look at this guy about to be beheaded, he certainly looks pretty depressed. I'll admit that. He certainly looks a bit scared too, but what I see is a person who's gathering his courage in the hopes that he'll be able to die bravely.

    He's not protesting and calling them names. He's past that. He's hoping to give them nothing. No pleas for mercy. No morality or "how could you?" speeches. Nothing. That's how Americans die.


    http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/...raphic-images/

    He did cry out in pain once the process was started, but you know.... probably that's because beheading really hurts. It really hurts quite a lot, or so I am told. Can't really fault him for that part. He held on right up until the blade was in his neck. That's got to be good enough to deserve some respect.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If cowardice were an American virtue, then McCain would have nothing to fear politically from fellow MIA/POW's giving testimony about what he did. Cowards usually sympathize with other cowards.
    What McCain has to fear politically? He is close to retirement. And his war record never hurt him, only helped.

    And he is not alone. Just think of Ted Kennedy of Chappaquiddick fame.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    They admitted defeat when they started the morality speech stuff. Americans don't go that direction when they're about to die. It borders on a plea for mercy.
    Where did they start a morality speach bordering on pleding for mercy? In your dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's kind of a matter of interpretation.
    I know that. In your interpretation Jackson Pollock is an artist.
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  15. #14  
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    An American about to be executed would not say this thing you quote Comrade Elena as saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by simus

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfDOAP20ASI

    Comrade Elena was not afraid of this gang of enemies of people. "You are not men" - said comrade Elena to these little predators.
    To an American, it is a serious point of pride to be calm in the face of death. You try not to express any emotion at all. If an American speaks, its either to say a few solemn last words, or to mock one's enemy in a calm voice. But, you never, ever express any serious emotion if you can help it.

    I don't understand what she's saying in the clip, but her voice is incredibly emotional. I don't take that as a sign of fear or cowardice, because clearly she's willing to die for her cause, but ...... it's culturally very different from the American approach to facing execution. If we go ceterus paribus on the bravery aspect (assuming equally brave individuals from each of the two cultures), there would still be a difference in cultural outlook.

    Another thing is that, when Americans hold a revolution, or want to fight about something, there is no point in executing the leaders. If anything, executing the leaders is a really good way to make the revolution catch on like wild fire. If there ever is a revolution again in the USA, that would be about the dumbest thing the government could ever hope to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If cowardice were an American virtue, then McCain would have nothing to fear politically from fellow MIA/POW's giving testimony about what he did. Cowards usually sympathize with other cowards.
    What McCain has to fear politically? He is close to retirement. And his war record never hurt him, only helped.

    And he is not alone. Just think of Ted Kennedy of Chappaquiddick fame.
    Clearly you did not watch your own film clip.

    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    That's why John McCain produced 32 communist propaganda tapes when Vietnamese had shown him a gun?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0
    The clip is not primarily about his propaganda tapes. It mentions them, but the focus of the clip is on his opposition to bills in the Senate that are directed at bringing home POWs from Vietnam. The people in the film state that they believe his reason for blocking the bills is because he's afraid of what the POWs will remember about his actions as a POW. Why would he be afraid of that if it had no potential to damage him politically?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  16. #15  
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    You know, I think the problem in Romania is that Elena was the one who got lynched. In the USA, lynching is very nearly considered acceptable behavior. Protestant communities used to lynch people all the time if their sensibilities were offended by someone. The US government knows they have to stay ahead of the lynch mobs if they want to remain credible, so it's very difficult for a corrupt government official to remain safe from prosecution just because he/she has "friends in the right places" once their crimes have become public knowledge (unless their lack of prosecution is somehow kept secret from the people.)

    That's the part of "self government" that's missing in a lot of the world. Americans feel entitled to come together and totally bypass their government if the government isn't doing what they think it should. There's no fear that a revolution would lead to anarchy. If anything the local preacher or lynch mob's leader would be in charge for a little while, but lynch mob leaders have no way to consolidate their rule. The mob disperses once it has vented its rage.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    To an American, it is a serious point of pride to be calm in the face of death. You try not to express any emotion at all. If an American speaks, its either to say a few solemn last words, or to mock one's enemy in a calm voice. But, you never, ever express any serious emotion if you can help it.
    Perhaps, you could give an example of such an American? Actually I can recall one:
    Defiant to the end, Timothy McVeigh marched unrepentantly toward eternity with his eyes wide open yesterday, showing a soldier's cool demeanor and offering no apology for killing 168 people in cold blood.

    The stone-faced Persian Gulf War veteran said nothing as the government he so loathed put him to death, choosing as his epitaph an oft-quoted poem written 126 years ago that concludes, "I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul."
    http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-06-1...eral-execution

    Any more? The other I know of are all like that

    http://www.reuters.com/news/video?vi...02&videoId=747


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The clip is not primarily about his propaganda tapes. It mentions them, but the focus of the clip is on his opposition to bills in the Senate that are directed at bringing home POWs from Vietnam. The people in the film state that they believe his reason for blocking the bills is because he's afraid of what the POWs will remember about his actions as a POW. Why would he be afraid of that if it had no potential to damage him politically?
    Could McCain block those bills without support of other senators? Wasn't this support guaranteed? He had nothing to worry about. Just like Clinton

    With the election of Mr. Clinton the United States at long last had as a leader a worthy offspringof the idiocy of the American popular culture.Those who challenged his right to lead by his lying to evade the draft did not seem to know that most Americans did not think it wrong, but applauded his behavior. Mr. Clinton smugly knew his critics only won him votes.
    Richard Earley "War, Money & American Memory: Myths of Virtue, Valor & Patriotism"
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus

    To understand what happened in Iraq you may wish to study Hegel. His master-slave dialectic. The difference between master and slave is in attitude to death. The master looks into the eyes of death. He fights and conquers death. The slave always tries to avoid a confrontation with death. He is afraid of death. And he is afraid of the master, because he sees death in master's eyes.

    Of course, you bring death to Iraqis, but using remote control. In your eyes Iraqis see your fear and in their eyes you see death. You experience a complete perturbation of your entire substance, an absolute dissolution of all your stability. And this state of being is you philosophical nature.
    I wanted to go back to this. I think there's more to it than just master vs. slave. People want to be lead by someone who's brave because bravery equates to a willingness to take responsibility. If a person who's brave is wrong about something, then it's likely that they will accept responsibility rather than just dodge out of the way and try to pass the buck to someone else.

    Slaves don't take responsibility for anything. So long as they've done what they're told, it's all on their master's head if something goes wrong. GW was a slave. He constantly passed responsibility on to his advisors for advising him wrong when things didn't work out in Iraq. He'd say he was just doing what they told him.

    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Just like Clinton

    With the election of Mr. Clinton the United States at long last had as a leader a worthy offspringof the idiocy of the American popular culture.Those who challenged his right to lead by his lying to evade the draft did not seem to know that most Americans did not think it wrong, but applauded his behavior. Mr. Clinton smugly knew his critics only won him votes.
    Richard Earley "War, Money & American Memory: Myths of Virtue, Valor & Patriotism"
    I don't think Vietnam is a good measuring stick for bravery. Why would you want to bleed to death in a war half the country doesn't even believe in (and you yourself might not believe in) that's being fought for reasons nobody is even clear about? The Master in Hegel is taking responsibility for his/her own decisions, not for some policy maker in Washington.

    Marching into Vietnam would almost be more of a slave's action than a master's action. A master might choose to risk prison instead.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I wanted to go back to this. I think there's more to it than just master vs. slave. People want to be lead by someone who's brave because bravery equates to a willingness to take responsibility. If a person who's brave is wrong about something, then it's likely that they will accept responsibility rather than just dodge out of the way and try to pass the buck to someone else.

    Slaves don't take responsibility for anything. So long as they've done what they're told, it's all on their master's head if something goes wrong. GW was a slave. He constantly passed responsibility on to his advisors for advising him wrong when things didn't work out in Iraq. He'd say he was just doing what they told him.
    But you still don't get what mistake people who started the war in Iraq had made. They, just like you are still doing, hallucinated that they are vikings. In reality, you are same vikings as the blonde from "Kill Bill" is a samurai.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Just like Clinton

    With the election of Mr. Clinton the United States at long last had as a leader a worthy offspringof the idiocy of the American popular culture.Those who challenged his right to lead by his lying to evade the draft did not seem to know that most Americans did not think it wrong, but applauded his behavior. Mr. Clinton smugly knew his critics only won him votes.
    Richard Earley "War, Money & American Memory: Myths of Virtue, Valor & Patriotism"
    I don't think Vietnam is a good measuring stick for bravery. Why would you want to bleed to death in a war half the country doesn't even believe in (and you yourself might not believe in) that's being fought for reasons nobody is even clear about? The Master in Hegel is taking responsibility for his/her own decisions, not for some policy maker in Washington.

    Marching into Vietnam would almost be more of a slave's action than a master's action. A master might choose to risk prison instead.
    Exactly. So when McCain made 32 communist propaganda tapes he freed himself from bondage and became a free man. A master and a senator.
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