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Thread: Racial oppression of the whites

  1. #1 Racial oppression of the whites 
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    There is an opinion that the whites are racially oppressed in America

    http://www.vdare.com/lodge/110307_wh..._oppressed.htm


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    What is your opinion?

    What other articles about racial discrimination in USA have you read about? Which do you find most convincing?

    Out of interest, what is your race?


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    There's also an opinion that evolution is a lie and human induced global climate change is a conspiracy in America. So?
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    What's a "white?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    What's a "white?"
    I'm not sure. I'm coloured: a sort of dirty pink, with some purplish blue under the eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGlad
    Out of interest, what is your race?
    400m hurdles.
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    They're so oppressed that they have the highest levels of education, the highest incomes (especially amongst those with lower levels of education), and the most political representation. Poor white people .
    "I almost went to bed
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    This is a terrible tragedy.

    1 year ago, I was watching Fox News, I had also this feeling.
    And after discovering Jerry Springer show 6 months ago, I was comforted in my impression.

    The white people (whatever this is) have been oppressed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    There's also an opinion that evolution is a lie and human induced global climate change is a conspiracy in America. So?
    And your world view is surely rooted in Science. Why then, when the world's most eminient scientist questions your cathehism, you snub him impudently "This is elementary, Watson!" and the scientist loses his job?
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    They're so oppressed that they have the highest levels of education, the highest incomes (especially amongst those with lower levels of education), and the most political representation. Poor white people .
    On the other hand the only way they get to wear outrageous clothing is to play golf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    And your world view is surely rooted in Science. Why then, when the world's most eminient scientist questions your cathehism, you snub him impudently "This is elementary, Watson!" and the scientist loses his job?
    Are you off your meds again, Simus?
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  12. #11  
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    The other day I heard about a scholarship for white males. You had to be able to say you were at least 30% white and male. It was for $300. There were protests and the sponsors of the scholarship were accused of being racists and bigots. There are a ton of programs out there to help anybody who isn't a white male.

    Kind of makes me want to apply for one of those women only, or hispanic only, or black only, or indian only, or any of the other scholarships that are only open to people other than white men and then sue for discrimination when I am declined.

    Why is it okay for programs, scholarships or employers to discriminate against white males but wrong for them to discriminate against any other group or classification?

    To put it in perspective, my wife is black, I'm white, and obviously, my daughter is mixed. She is only a little girl, 19 months.

    I am hoping that by the time she is looking for scholarships, filling out college applications, or applying for a job, the forms will no longer be asking what race she is. Honestly, it just shouldn't matter.

    Just my .02

    Edited to add: I didn't read the article the OP posted. Honestly, I don't care what it says. Based on the responses generated so far, it obviously was not an effective argument. I have a lot more to say about this subject, but we'll see if I get any takers. I do believe, and have factual, and anecdotal, evidence that the white male is discriminated against in today's work force, particularly when it pertains to the Government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Are you off your meds again, Simus?
    Want to use punitive psychiatry at the forum?

    I was referring to this (if you did not get it):

    http://blackoncampus.com/2007/10/21/...y-dear-watson/
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Want to use punitive psychiatry at the foorum?
    Holy crap! Absolutely, I would! Can you help me find a method to do so?


    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    I was referring to this (if you did not get it):
    You are correct. I did miss your reference. Go figure... I hadn't read one random post from one random day three and a half years ago on one random blog about one random comment in a British newspaper. I should be ashamed of myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Kind of makes me want to apply for one of those women only, or hispanic only, or black only, or indian only, or any of the other scholarships that are only open to people other than white men and then sue for discrimination when I am declined.
    Now what would Miss Rand have too say about you trying to sue people there John?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Kind of makes me want to apply for one of those women only, or hispanic only, or black only, or indian only, or any of the other scholarships that are only open to people other than white men and then sue for discrimination when I am declined.
    Now what would Miss Rand have too say about you trying to sue people there John?
    Rand was not against lawsuits. One of the few places she felt a government authority was necessary was in a court system to settle disputes between private citizens.

    In any case, what she would have to say on the issue is not relevent. You read what I had to say about the issue and chose to comment on my username instead of my argument.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Kind of makes me want to apply for one of those women only, or hispanic only, or black only, or indian only, or any of the other scholarships that are only open to people other than white men and then sue for discrimination when I am declined.
    Now what would Miss Rand have too say about you trying to sue people there John?
    Rand was not against lawsuits. One of the few places she felt a government authority was necessary was in a court system to settle disputes between private citizens.

    In any case, what she would have to say on the issue is not relevent. You read what I had to say about the issue and chose to comment on my username instead of my argument.
    Well okay, I'm white and I have never felt that I have been discriminated on by my government because of the color of my skin. Poor people are discriminated against all the time, regardless of skin color. This discrimination is institutionalized in an environment of unregulated economy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_...industrialist)
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    I agree with whoisjohngalt, actually. Everyone who has been oppressed wants to either turn around and oppress someone else or get revenge against their oppressor.

    In the former case (Israel vs. Palestinians for example), by becoming the bully, they temporarily make themselves not feel like victims, but they are perpetuating the very ethic that lead to their oppression in the first place.

    In the latter case, the trouble with revenge is that people always take it too far if they take it anywhere at all. Then there's a backlash, and the people against whom the revenge was taken decide they need revenge. And it just keeps going back and forth.

    The best strategy is to just stop everyone from being unfair to everyone else and then forget the past. Just start everyone with a clean slate. Take measures to ensure that the previous unfairness is really over, like permanently over, but otherwise treat the past as though it never happened. Treat it like it was just a bad dream, and we're all waking up from it now.
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    I've hired three people in the last few months. One hispanic, one white, and one was black(in that order); all male. Not the beginning to a joke; they just happened to be the ones I found who were qualified and who I could pay what they were asking.

    In any case, because our company has a government contract, we have to file paperwork with the OFFCP every time we hire somebody. For two of them, my paperwork was accepted without question. For one of them, I have had to file the paperwork 7 times, and provide justifications as to why I didn't hire other people I interviewed. Guess which hire the OFCCP is questioning?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    I'm white and I have never felt that I have been discriminated on by my government because of the color of my skin.
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    For one of them, I have had to file the paperwork 7 times, and provide justifications as to why I didn't hire other people I interviewed.
    Either of us is only a sample size of one, so no general trend has been proven. But in your case, was there any bigotry or hatred as motivators?
    Certainly there are examples of white peoples suffering unequal circumstances, but how often is a white person subjected to the opinion that they are biologically or spiritually inferior to others based solely on the color of their skin?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    I'm white and I have never felt that I have been discriminated on by my government because of the color of my skin.
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    For one of them, I have had to file the paperwork 7 times, and provide justifications as to why I didn't hire other people I interviewed.
    Either of us is only a sample size of one, so no general trend has been proven. But in your case, was there any bigotry or hatred as motivators?
    Certainly there are examples of white peoples suffering unequal circumstances,
    Let's start with the automatic assumption that, if you are white, then your parents must therefore be very very rich. You must have grown up protected like a delicate flower, wanting nothing. You therefore do not need anyone to ever do you any favors at all, even one. No doors to opportunity should ever be opened for you, because presumably they're already wide open just because.... you are white.

    There couldn't ever be such a thing as an exception to that rule. Could there?


    but how often is a white person subjected to the opinion that they are biologically or spiritually inferior to others based solely on the color of their skin?
    Are you kidding? We're Satan!

    We're the whole reason everything is bad in the world. Nothing would ever go wrong, nobody would ever be oppressed, and the whole third world would be blooming economically if we didn't exist. It's all our fault.
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    There couldn't ever be such a thing as an exception to that rule. Could there?
    Eminem :-D

    White people are economically advantaged but the generation growing up in my town both white, black, asian, and hispanic kids know and joke about the respective stereotypes of their race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    You are correct. I did miss your reference. Go figure... I hadn't read one random post from one random day three and a half years ago on one random blog about one random comment in a British newspaper. I should be ashamed of myself.
    There had been hundreds of post and articles with that title

    http://www.google.com/search?num=100...&aqi=&aql=&oq=

    Besides, you could get what I was talking about even without seeing any of those.

    Can you debate the issues? The point is that the liberal worldview is not a scientific one. It is a weird religion. The major difference with real religions is that the liberals have a lot of inquisitors, but not a single martyr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The point is that the liberal worldview is not a scientific one.
    How are you defining "liberal worldview?"

    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    It is a weird religion.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The major difference with real religions is that the liberals have a lot of inquisitors, but not a single martyr.
    I'm convinced. You ARE off your meds.
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    We are a small sample size.

    However, the OFCCP audits between 2000 and 4000 businesses every year looking for cases when a company hired a white person instead of anybody else and why. I would say that is a pretty big sample size.

    The UNCF has financed nearly half a million African American's education. That's just one group for one minority. That is a pretty big sample size. The same can be said for hispanics, indians, women, etc. Can it be said for white men?

    A good read: The Case Against Affirmative Action


    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    I'm white and I have never felt that I have been discriminated on by my government because of the color of my skin.
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    For one of them, I have had to file the paperwork 7 times, and provide justifications as to why I didn't hire other people I interviewed.
    Either of us is only a sample size of one, so no general trend has been proven. But in your case, was there any bigotry or hatred as motivators?
    Certainly there are examples of white peoples suffering unequal circumstances, but how often is a white person subjected to the opinion that they are biologically or spiritually inferior to others based solely on the color of their skin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    They're so oppressed that they have the highest levels of education, the highest incomes (especially amongst those with lower levels of education), and the most political representation. Poor white people .
    The whites had highest levels of education even at the moment they first arrived to America. One may mention that even those Native Americans, who had some civilization, did not use a wheel. So, even if whites have higher levels of income, they contribute to the society more than they get back from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The whites had highest levels of education even at the moment they first arrived to America. One may mention that even those Native Americans, who had some civilization, did not use a wheel.
    That's a terribly ignorant statement.

    You're making the mistake of judging one culture better in some way by the very measure of the culture you're declaring as superior. That is rediculous. While the Native American's didn't use a wheel because they didnt' have a suitable domestic animal to take advantage of them--they did have wonderful dugouts and birch bark canoes. A Natives of the time could have been just as critical as you've been by stating the "whites" (an equalily idiotic catagory most Northern Natives American's could qualify for), didnt' know how to grow squash and corn together, build a birch bark canoe or set up a fish weire. They were educated in different things-but no less educated or intelligent.
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    Probably a better technology to judge from would be literacy, since literacy enables a culture to expand its technology at a faster rate, regardless of what that technology is.

    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    They're so oppressed that they have the highest levels of education, the highest incomes (especially amongst those with lower levels of education), and the most political representation. Poor white people .
    The whites had highest levels of education even at the moment they first arrived to America. One may mention that even those Native Americans, who had some civilization, did not use a wheel. So, even if whites have higher levels of income, they contribute to the society more than they get back from it.
    Maybe it's just semantics, but in a racial discussion, I always try to add the word "people" or "person" after the racial designation. IE. "White People" "Black People" "Hispanic People", so as to remind myself and others that we're actually describing sub groups within a larger group (People), and that larger group's designation is the more important one.

    I also think it's wonderfully bigoted for everyone to go around saying white people have higher levels of income. That may be statistically true, but it's also statistically true that black people commit more crime per capita. Either both statements should be considered valid arguments about how individuals should get treated, or both statements should be considered invalid. Considering only one of them to be valid is kind of a one way street mentality.

    Saying "You are white, therefore you must not need any college scholarships because your parents are so rich." is racial profiling in an exactly identical sense to how saying "You are black, therefore the police ought to pull over your car and make sure you aren't carrying any drugs in the trunk." is racial profiling. Both rest on assumptions that are being made statistically with no direct knowledge of the individual's situation or character. Why do I belong to a special race that doesn't have the right to be treated as an individual instead of a group?
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    The argument fails because it assumes these events are specifically related to melanin content in someone's skin, as opposed to things like socioeconomic status, education, and opportunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The whites had highest levels of education even at the moment they first arrived to America. One may mention that even those Native Americans, who had some civilization, did not use a wheel.
    That's a terribly ignorant statement.
    At least he didn't suggest that whites discovered America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    The UNCF has financed nearly half a million African American's education. That's just one group for one minority. That is a pretty big sample size. The same can be said for hispanics, indians, women, etc. Can it be said for white men?
    Well, there should be a "poor anybody" college fund. But until I hear about crosses being burnt on white peoples lawns, I can't buy the concept of "oppression of white people".
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    The argument fails because it assumes these events are specifically related to melanin content in someone's skin, as opposed to things like socioeconomic status, education, and opportunity.
    Your status with respect to eligibility for affirmative action programs and college scholarship funds are, in fact, related ot the melanin content of your skin.
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    On the hiring issues whoisjohngalt was talking about, you know the main problem isn't just the unfairness. It's also really hard to hire competent people when your HR department is constantly having to check race on every candidate. They have to be so careful to ensure there isn't even the faintest specter of bias, that you're basically not allowed to use any criteria in a hiring decision that wouldn't be visible in a court of law.

    Otherwise they'll sue, and you'll lose.

    When my father's secretary got promoted, it took him something like 10 tries to find a half decent replacement. He was always complaining about how he'd get 40+ applicants and the HR department would only let him even look at 5 resumes. I'm sure there are a lot of competent people in a lot of industries getting slowed down by stuff like that, because they can't hire good help to back them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    The UNCF has financed nearly half a million African American's education. That's just one group for one minority. That is a pretty big sample size. The same can be said for hispanics, indians, women, etc. Can it be said for white men?
    Well, there should be a "poor anybody" college fund. But until I hear about crosses being burnt on white peoples lawns, I can't buy the concept of "oppression of white people".

    That is true. It really hasn't gotten violent, unless a white person stumbles into the wrong neighborhood or something, but that could happen to anyone who's the wrong race for those neighborhoods.

    I guess we should wait until it gets violent, and then we can complain. Or, when that happens will the standard switch over to being concentration camps? Clearly oppression has to be extreme in order to be noteworthy, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's also really hard to hire competent people when your HR department is constantly having to check race on every candidate.
    I doubt that very much. If you'd said "best qualified" you might have a better point.

    And the reality is there are still disadvantaged groups in the country that we have as a society decided deserve a tiny amount of a favorable environment if for no other reason to ensure that employers don't use biases that even they might not be aware of to choose one group over another among qualified candidates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    black people commit more crime per capita
    Eight times.

    http://www.colorofcrime.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's also really hard to hire competent people when your HR department is constantly having to check race on every candidate.
    I doubt that very much. If you'd said "best qualified" you might have a better point.

    And the reality is there are still disadvantaged groups in the country that we have as a society decided deserve a tiny amount of a favorable environment if for no other reason to ensure that employers don't use biases that even they might not be aware of to choose one group over another among qualified candidates.
    The way my father runs his department, those two are the same thing. He basically gets rid of anyone who isn't extremely talented. That's also why the HR department frustrated him so much. His previous secretary had been incredibly good at her job (which is why she got promoted). Hence the need to be able to interview more than five candidates.

    If we want our businesses to perform (and be able to compete with foreign businesses), we've got to forget about "competent" and staff them, whenever possible, with "exceptional" employees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    black people commit more crime per capita
    Eight times.

    http://www.colorofcrime.com/
    The New Century Foundation is a white supremacist organization...

    (Edit: Even worse is that they are funded by the Pioneer Fund, an organization that advocates eugenics).
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The New Century Foundation is a white supremacist organization...
    May be. But are they right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If we want our businesses to perform (and be able to compete with foreign businesses), we've got to forget about "competent" and staff them, whenever possible, with "exceptional" employees.
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.
    And if you are a hunter you may take the more challenging and socially responsible position and take a puddel and transform him into a greyhound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.
    And if you are a hunter you may take the more challenging and socially responsible position and take a puddel and transform him into a greyhound.
    Poodles were not transformed into greyhounds, but our ancestors transformed wolves into both. I'm not sure what your point is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The New Century Foundation is a white supremacist organization...
    May be. But are they right?
    I can't believe this even needs saying... what, with how simple google is to use... but, No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    If we want our businesses to perform (and be able to compete with foreign businesses), we've got to forget about "competent" and staff them, whenever possible, with "exceptional" employees.
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.

    It's foolish to assume that everyone has the same ethics as you or I. Not everyone is self motivating. Some people don't have pride in themselves or their work. Some people won't choose to excel just because the opportunity is offered to them. They'll only excel if they have to to win. Creating a situation where a person's skin color entitles them to their job kind of destroys that effect, doesn't it?

    It's kind of like in the middle ages with the divine right of the nobility. If ruling is a birth right, how do you get competent rulers? If being paid for secretarial work is a birth right, where will we get competent secretaries?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.
    It's foolish to assume that everyone has the same ethics as you or I. Not everyone is self motivating. Some people don't have pride in themselves or their work. Some people won't choose to excel just because the opportunity is offered to them.
    For ****'s sake. You don't give them the opportunity, you inspire them, you motivate them, you give them a sense of pride. You get off your fat ass and demonstrate leadership. You lead, guide, cajole, threaten, reward and punish, until none of these things is necessary any longer because the individual is now self motivated. If you sit around expecting people to act responsibly and to strive for excellence without any guidance or encouragement then you are as bad or worse than them. I will not give up on any individual until they have demonstrated with amazing consistency the inability to respond to any known technique of motivation including getting down on my kees and begging.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.
    It's foolish to assume that everyone has the same ethics as you or I. Not everyone is self motivating. Some people don't have pride in themselves or their work. Some people won't choose to excel just because the opportunity is offered to them.
    For ****'s sake. You don't give them the opportunity, you inspire them, you motivate them, you give them a sense of pride. You get off your fat ass and demonstrate leadership. You lead, guide, cajole, threaten, reward and punish, until none of these things is necessary any longer because the individual is now self motivated. If you sit around expecting people to act responsibly and to strive for excellence without any guidance or encouragement then you are as bad or worse than them. I will not give up on any individual until they have demonstrated with amazing consistency the inability to respond to any known technique of motivation including getting down on my kees and begging.
    Spoken like someone who has never hired someone or been responsible for completing a job. If I hire somebody, I expect them to do their job. I shouldn't have to lead, guide, cajole, threaten, reward, punish, and most certainly not have to beg. I don't have time for that. I have a job to do, also.

    I answer questions, I offer guidance, but if I have to threaten or punish somebody just to get them to do what they are being paid for, then I made a very bad hiring decision.

    I am not interested in charity. When I was in the Navy, part of my job was developing those under me to make them better assets to the Navy. I still believe that is part of my job in the civilian world. To help develop those under me. But I am not going to sit there and beg somebody to do their job. With unemployment what it is, I'll find somebody else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Poodles were not transformed into greyhounds, but our ancestors transformed wolves into both. I'm not sure what your point is.
    What a eugenic nonsense. Nothing depends on the ancestors of a dog or of a man. The concept of a dog breed is a racist hoax. The only trait with regard to which the so called dog breeds can possibly differ is the color of their fur. The other characteristics depend on the social expectation you place on the dog. So what I suggest is that you take a poodle pup and expect him to run fast. Give him appropriate food and the necessary training. Then, when he grows up, according to Boasian dogology, he will run as fast as Borzoi.
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    Damn whiters need ta go back ta Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The major difference with real religions is that the liberals have a lot of inquisitors, but not a single martyr.
    I'm convinced. You ARE off your meds.
    Or, perhaps, you did not get the point, as usual. The case when Dr. Watson was forced by the deacons of the Church of Liberalism to abjure, curse and detest his scientific views reminds the persecution of Galileo by the Holy Inquisition.

    Regarding liberal martyrs I maintain that there is not one. If you think that I am wrong you can refute my statement by a single example (may be Google will help). You see: the Catholics had martyrs, and the Pravoslavny Christians did. And the Protestants. The Muslims have martyrs, whom the call shahids. The Communists and the Faschists had martyrs (and inquisitors too). But the liberals had none. They didn't even have a single hero in a traditional sense. All of them are outright cowardly.
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    Not even worth a response. You are merely posting myopic ill-informed ideological vitriol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Spoken like someone who has never hired someone or been responsible for completing a job. .
    Which demonstrates how misguided and ignorant you are. I have hired scores of individuals in my career. I have been involved in the long term development and training of hundreds and the short term training of thousands. Taking a diamond in the rough and cutting and polishing it is not only satisfying, but is outstandingly profitable for the company. You don't get to run multi-million dollar operations if you don't have a track record for reaching goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    What a eugenic nonsense. Nothing depends on the ancestors of a dog or of a man. The concept of a dog breed is a racist hoax. The only trait with regard to which the so called dog breeds can possibly differ is the color of their fur. The other characteristics depend on the social expectation you place on the dog. So what I suggest is that you take a poodle pup and expect him to run fast. Give him appropriate food and the necessary training. Then, when he grows up, according to Boasian dogology, he will run as fast as Borzoi.
    Are you for real? I applaud your imitation of a dumb creationist. You have distilled all the wrong headed thinking associated with such into a tight bundle of crap. Well done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I have been involved in the long term development and training of hundreds and the short term training of thousands.
    Why are you so modest? Millions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I have been involved in the long term development and training of hundreds and the short term training of thousands.
    Why are you so modest? Millions.
    Because I believe in accuracy. If you wish I shall send you an itemised account by pm that will demonstrate that my figures are accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Because I believe in accuracy. If you wish I shall send you an itemised account by pm that will demonstrate that my figures are accurate.
    All eleven millions?
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    What are you waffling about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Damn whiters need ta go back ta Europe.
    Outstanding.
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    I think, Ophiolite, you should not even start to talk with these kind of people. This is a lost of energy, time and resources. They are on a thinking loop so, not worth.

    The whole concept of race is a non-sense based on visual perception. I am sure my cat have defined race of humans based on the smell or the way they move or the pitch of the voice... which are completly different of white/black etc...

    Actually, the genetic diversity among blacks in Africa is higher than among the rest of the population of the earth. Consequently, there are more "races" among black than among the rest of humanity. Let us push the logic to its end...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    I think, Ophiolite, you should not even start to talk with these kind of people. ...
    I believe you are correct and that your advice is sound. However, I rise to the bait every time.
    I like to think of it as a harmless hobby. :wink:

    Your point about genetic diversity within and outwith the African continent is a very relevant one. Ultimately we are all human and ultimately we and polar bears and komodo dragons and daffodils and E.coli are all alive, and that is a pretty remarkable thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    They are on a thinking loop so, not worth.
    They are certainly stuck in some sort of mental loop, like a skipping record, but I'm fairly sure it doesn't generally require much thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus

    Regarding liberal martyrs I maintain that there is not one. If you think that I am wrong you can refute my statement by a single example (may be Google will help). You see: the Catholics had martyrs, and the Pravoslavny Christians did. And the Protestants. The Muslims have martyrs, whom the call shahids. The Communists and the Faschists had martyrs (and inquisitors too). But the liberals had none. They didn't even have a single hero in a traditional sense. All of them are outright cowardly.
    That's because liberals follow the scientific method, which assigns a zero evidence value to a person's choice to become a martyr over it. If a person is so determined to believe something that they die over it, all that proves is that they believed it strongly. It doesn't rule out the possibility of them being crazy or foolish.

    It proves they have strong feelings about it, and strong feelings are dangerous, because they're not usually accompanied by cold objectivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Or you can take the more challenging and socially responsible position and hire competent employees and transform them into exceptional ones.
    It's foolish to assume that everyone has the same ethics as you or I. Not everyone is self motivating. Some people don't have pride in themselves or their work. Some people won't choose to excel just because the opportunity is offered to them.
    For ****'s sake. You don't give them the opportunity, you inspire them, you motivate them, you give them a sense of pride. You get off your fat ass and demonstrate leadership. You lead, guide, cajole, threaten, reward and punish, until none of these things is necessary any longer because the individual is now self motivated. If you sit around expecting people to act responsibly and to strive for excellence without any guidance or encouragement then you are as bad or worse than them. I will not give up on any individual until they have demonstrated with amazing consistency the inability to respond to any known technique of motivation including getting down on my kees and begging.
    I used to be the guy who would do that, but I lost that game. I'd get emotionally invested sometimes in someone that I'd made a "project" out of. When the last one got fired, I began to realize how ridiculous it was for my company to expect to be competitive whilst expending all kinds of resources and my own time trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    It's also what a marriage counselor will tell you: don't get married to someone expecting them to change. I think the same applies to hiring. Hire people who already fit into your operation, or you can expect to take losses.
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    These things are not mutually exclusive, guys. You try to both hire the best talent AND develop people once hired. They don't occur in a vacuum, and the number of variables involved are enormous, so the imperative is to make the best of what you have, optimize the combination of existing skill when hired and future potential, and always strive for progress and forward advancement. You can't do that through either approach alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    These things are not mutually exclusive, guys. You try to both hire the best talent AND develop people once hired. They don't occur in a vacuum, and the number of variables involved are enormous, so the imperative is to make the best of what you have, optimize the combination of existing skill when hired and future potential, and always strive for progress and forward advancement. You can't do that through either approach alone.
    Why not? I strive to hire the most qualified person with the best attitude, regardless of what color they are. Ironically, the same as was taught to me by our government. The military is one of the places where there is no affirmative action based on race. In nuke school, you didn't get extra points for being black. You either passed or failed.

    It is a telling point that our government disregards racial preferences when the stakes are high and when it is for their benefit, but somehow expects private sector companies to hire people based on their race instead of their qualifications.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    These things are not mutually exclusive, guys. You try to both hire the best talent AND develop people once hired. They don't occur in a vacuum, and the number of variables involved are enormous, so the imperative is to make the best of what you have, optimize the combination of existing skill when hired and future potential, and always strive for progress and forward advancement. You can't do that through either approach alone.
    That is also true of marriage. People will change a little. They just won't change a lot. Some times you get a rectangular peg that's close to square, and then you just have to shave off a little bit of one side, add a little to the other, and you'll get it to fit into a square hole.

    However, I'd much rather start with someone who is already exceptional, and develop that person into a godlike master of their craft, as opposed to starting with someone who's work is somewhat shoddy and trying to work with them until they're finally able to meet my minimum expectations.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Why not? I strive to hire the most qualified person with the best attitude, regardless of what color they are. Ironically, the same as was taught to me by our government. The military is one of the places where there is no affirmative action based on race.
    Not true, there is not only affirmative action in the DOD, it is a requirement from Congress that each service submit a detailed "Affirmative Action plan." For the Army it's DA PAM 600-26. In most cases this translates into equal intensive equal opportunity and sensitivity training for soldiers and programs that establish quota goals and record racial data for promotions, schools and awards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Why not? I strive to hire the most qualified person with the best attitude, regardless of what color they are. Ironically, the same as was taught to me by our government. The military is one of the places where there is no affirmative action based on race.
    Not true, there is not only affirmative action in the DOD, it is a requirement from Congress that each service submit a detailed "Affirmative Action plan." For the Army it's DA PAM 600-26. In most cases this translates into equal intensive equal opportunity and sensitivity training for soldiers and programs that establish quota goals and record racial data for promotions, schools and awards.
    Nicely done. You removed the part of my quote that was relevant to your argument. If you are going to use a partial quote from one of my posts, at least see to it that the part that completely refutes your argument is included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    These things are not mutually exclusive, guys. You try to both hire the best talent AND develop people once hired. They don't occur in a vacuum, and the number of variables involved are enormous, so the imperative is to make the best of what you have, optimize the combination of existing skill when hired and future potential, and always strive for progress and forward advancement. You can't do that through either approach alone.
    Why not? I strive to hire the most qualified person with the best attitude, regardless of what color they are.
    Good for you. My point is that you're not always going to get the best possible candidate, despite your attempts to do so, and so the issue is one where you BOTH try to hire the best AND develop the people you have. Also note that my point was unrelated to the skin color thing you have been tossing around, and applied equally to all people and all businesses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Nicely done. You removed the part of my quote that was relevant to your argument. If you are going to use a partial quote from one of my posts, at least see to it that the part that completely refutes your argument is included.
    Your statement "The military is one of the places where there is no affirmative action based on race," was factually wrong and I corrected you, it's that simple. The very reason the Department of Defense is so well integrated compared to much of America is because of comprehensive Affirmative Action programs.

    I'll also add that some of the very things complained about in this tread are matters of routine in the military--for example Commander's are investigated for not meeting their goals, promotion selection boards are sometime held up for months while their procedures and criteria are put under scrutiny for not making the affirmative action goals. The burden put on most businesses are small compared to the scope of the DOD affirmative action programs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

    I'll also add that some of the very things complained about in this tread are matters of routine in the military--for example Commander's are investigated for not meeting their goals, promotion selection boards are sometime held up for months while their procedures and criteria are put under scrutiny for not making the affirmative action goals. The burden put on most businesses are small compared to the scope of the DOD affirmative action programs.
    In this respect, the military has an advantage because not a "for profit" business trying to compete with other for profit businesses. I think affirmative action would work great in a communist state. (And military service basically is life in a communist state. It has every trait life in a communist state would have. IE. little real freedom, and the organization provides your housing, food, and medical.... etc, as well as telling you where to go.)

    In a capitalist economic model, employees need to be competing with one another the same as how businesses are competing with each other, or else only the business's owner will have an incentive to improve them self or their operation. Why would an employee be motivated to improve his/her performance if they're not competing with other applicants, or if they're allowed to defeat them by merely having been born a certain way?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Nicely done. You removed the part of my quote that was relevant to your argument. If you are going to use a partial quote from one of my posts, at least see to it that the part that completely refutes your argument is included.
    Your statement "The military is one of the places where there is no affirmative action based on race," was factually wrong and I corrected you, it's that simple. The very reason the Department of Defense is so well integrated compared to much of America is because of comprehensive Affirmative Action programs.

    I'll also add that some of the very things complained about in this tread are matters of routine in the military--for example Commander's are investigated for not meeting their goals, promotion selection boards are sometime held up for months while their procedures and criteria are put under scrutiny for not making the affirmative action goals. The burden put on most businesses are small compared to the scope of the DOD affirmative action programs.
    Here is how the Navy decides who gets promoted, along with the exact formulas used. http://www.military.com/MilitaryCare...listed,00.html
    Race is not a factor.

    Along with that, I know, for a fact, that in the Naval Nuclear community race has nothing to do with advancement or whether or not you pass or are even accepted into the program.

    If you have a reference to the contrary please feel free to share it. The military, as I knew it, gave everybody the same opportunity to succeed. It was up to the individual to take advantage of that, regardless of their race.

    The only way I knew of the Navy to be biased was towards women. Women did not have to be in the same physical shape that men did. Again, race had nothing to do with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    These things are not mutually exclusive, guys. You try to both hire the best talent AND develop people once hired. They don't occur in a vacuum, and the number of variables involved are enormous, so the imperative is to make the best of what you have, optimize the combination of existing skill when hired and future potential, and always strive for progress and forward advancement. You can't do that through either approach alone.
    Exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Nicely done. You removed the part of my quote that was relevant to your argument. If you are going to use a partial quote from one of my posts, at least see to it that the part that completely refutes your argument is included.
    Your statement "The military is one of the places where there is no affirmative action based on race," was factually wrong and I corrected you, it's that simple. The very reason the Department of Defense is so well integrated compared to much of America is because of comprehensive Affirmative Action programs.

    I'll also add that some of the very things complained about in this tread are matters of routine in the military--for example Commander's are investigated for not meeting their goals, promotion selection boards are sometime held up for months while their procedures and criteria are put under scrutiny for not making the affirmative action goals. The burden put on most businesses are small compared to the scope of the DOD affirmative action programs.
    Here is how the Navy decides who gets promoted, along with the exact formulas used. http://www.military.com/MilitaryCare...listed,00.html
    Race is not a factor.
    That doesn't' really address the issue, because the formula (which is similar to the Army), relies heavily on evaluations of promotion potential. A strict formula doesn't inoculated the system from racism because racist commander or supervisor could consistently give a particular group a low promotion recommendation.

    I know the Army looks at race, gender, and other factors, which the Navy broadly called diversity program, and accesses potential inequalities--I would guess the Navy does something similar. I know is has a CONOPs which specifies measuring across a lot of matrices http://www.bupers.navy.mil/NR/rdonly...sityCONOPS.txt

    It addresses the inequality of the Navy system as of it's writing "WHILE NAVY’S EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EFFORTS HAVE GENERALLY
    ACHIEVED A DIVERSE WORKFORCE, THERE REMAIN OBSERVABLE DEMOGRAPHIC
    SHORTFALLS IN SENIOR RANKS, TECHNICAL RATINGS AND ACROSS WARFARE
    COMMUNITIES. THIS LACK OF REPRESENTATION FAILS TO FULLY LEVERAGE
    THE TOTAL FORCE AND THEREFORE RISKS NAVY’S FUTURE READINESS AS
    AFFECTED BY ITS MANPOWER."

    In addition under the Navy's Diversity programs there's a ton of training, monitoring, recognition of ethnic and other celebrations etc.

    Admiral Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff recently expressed that all the services need to step up their efforts even more. http://www.jcs.mil/speech.aspx?id=1249
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    I gave you the specific formula that decides who gets promoted and your answer is that it's still taken into account, just on the back end?

    Why would the Navy do that? If they were really all about affirmative action, why not just make it part of the formula? If you are black, add a 1.2 multiplier...Or to be more fair, we'll just say that if you are white add a 0.8 multiplier...That will show those white guys.

    What you brought up is what is wrong with affirmative action. Now you are saying that it isn't visible. It is behind closed doors and that evaluations are based on people's race. Eval's are part of the calculation, but there is no where on the Eval that says Early Promote if Black. There is a diversity section of an evaluation. And that grades how well you work with everybody in your division...If you are black, and don't get along with hispanics, you get a low grade on the diversity. It is not affirmative action. It is designed to prevent racist people, of any race, from getting promoted easily.

    In the nuke world, race was not a factor. At least it wasn't on my ship.

    There were things that I noticed, though. Over 90% of Navy Nukes are white. We had a division of about 93 people. We had two black people, 1 hispanic, and three asian. The rest were white.

    Are you implying that we would have been better at running Nuclear Reactors if we didn't have as many white people and that we should have used affirmative action to disqualify some of the white people and bring in more black people who weren't qualified?

    Remember, we were running Nuclear Reactors for the Navy. Do you want the best qualified people regardless of race or do you want to play affirmative action games?

    Look, I'm not against celebrating other cultures, recognizing the hardships that certain races have had to go through in history, or having asian cuisine day at chow.

    I am against the dumbing down of our workforce and/or military by promoting anything other than the best. I believe it was Martin Luther King that had a dream that one day he would judged by the content of his character instead of the color of his skin. That day should have been yesterday.

    Like I said, my daughter is mixed. I hope she doesn't have to wonder someday if she was promoted because she earned it or because her mom and dad happened to have black and indian blood in them.
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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    Look, I'm not against celebrating other cultures, recognizing the hardships that certain races have had to go through in history, or having asian cuisine day at chow.

    I am against the dumbing down of our workforce and/or military by promoting anything other than the best. I believe it was Martin Luther King that had a dream that one day he would judged by the content of his character instead of the color of his skin. That day should have been yesterday.
    Yeah. I'm against any diversion from pure meritocracy. Nepotism in any form whatsoever, whether favoring the sons/daughters of black people, or the sons/daughters of magical elves, it's all the same to me. Their lineage should have absolutely nothing to do with whether they occupy a certain role in society.

    Otherwise we start to lose sight of the only thing that really matters: getting the job done. Personally I blame the recession on widespread disregard for this matter.


    Like I said, my daughter is mixed. I hope she doesn't have to wonder someday if she was promoted because she earned it or because her mom and dad happened to have black and indian blood in them.
    That's the worst part. Black people who genuinely posses merit can't show it, because the other factors make it too ambiguous for anyone to reliably know whether it was their ability or their skin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Otherwise we start to lose sight of the only thing that really matters: getting the job done.
    I just want to confirm my understanding of your position: the work is more important than the worker. Correct?
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  74. #73  
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt
    I gave you the specific formula that decides who gets promoted and your answer is that it's still taken into account, just on the back end?

    Why would the Navy do that? If they were really all about affirmative action, why not just make it part of the formula? If you are black, add a 1.2 multiplier...Or to be more fair, we'll just say that if you are white add a 0.8 multiplier...That will show those white guys.
    The simplest reason is probably because the Navy, much like the Army, would rather build that diversity through the training and monitoring of it's leadership. As a unit commander, I was fully aware that every award, promotion recommendation, and punishment was being tallied up by my higher unit's equal opportunity & S1 staff and sent higher. I know that if a pattern emerged that appeared biased, or goals weren't being met my unit, or the supervisor responsible, would be investigated. Equal opportunity investigations are pretty common and usually unsubstantiated but I witnessed one platoon sergeant (an E7) get relieved after a pattern of several years of not recommending women in his platoon go before the promotion board; in his case it was easy because the investigating officer found he'd told others that he didn't believe women should lead in the Army--he was using in influence to put his belief into practice contrary to Army policy.

    That level of monitoring combined with training and potential consequences promote integrity and diversity in the system. Since all services are under the same DOD and Congressional guidance, there's something similar in all military branches.
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    That level of monitoring combined with training and potential consequences promote integrity and diversity in the system. Since all services are under the same DOD and Congressional guidance, there's something similar in all military branches
    And there goes the professionalism of Western military organizations.
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    When were Western militaries ever truly professional, until the mid 20th century they were largely run by members of a privileged elite with modest military experience who received their positions through connections. Although, this was less the case of American military forces.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    That level of monitoring combined with training and potential consequences promote integrity and diversity in the system. Since all services are under the same DOD and Congressional guidance, there's something similar in all military branches
    And there goes the professionalism of Western military organizations.
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    When were Western militaries ever truly professional, until the mid 20th century they were largely run by members of a privileged elite with modest military experience who received their positions through connections. Although, this was less the case of American military forces.
    I take issue with the central premise. How is the military less professional by encouraging diversity with policy and central planning? What a total non-sequitur.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Damn whiters need ta go back ta Europe.

    Exaltation. It represents the breaking of the shackles of womanhood. The lady has just killed a missionary, represented by a skull. She is hungry. Women are forbidden to eat bananas on that Island. She has just taken a luscious bite and is waving the banana skin in triump and freedom.

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  79. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Otherwise we start to lose sight of the only thing that really matters: getting the job done.
    I just want to confirm my understanding of your position: the work is more important than the worker. Correct?

    It's like letting a guy play pitcher on your baseball team when it's obvious to everyone he really can't pitch. He owes it to the team to step down, but maybe he's a certain race, so he can legally compel you to keep him in that position while he loses you game after game.

    Yes, it actually is my position that the worker matters less than the team. It's just a reality check. You can't reward people with resources that never get produced. You certainly shouldn't reward them if they're impeding production by preventing you from putting a better person in their spot.
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    It's quite easy to defend yourself when you terminate someone or ask them to step down when you have actual performance data at your side when doing so. The whole "he did it because I'm brown" argument falls pretty quickly to pieces when you show documentation about progress, status checks, conversations discussing performance, provision of opportunities to correct bad performance, etc.

    Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.

    Some of the last few posts have seemed to argue in a vacuum... like efforts to promote diversity somehow disallow one from making decisions based on merit. What total myopic rubbish. It boggles my mind sometimes how people think in conceptual terms of black and white in a world full of so many shades of gray... Pun intended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's like letting a guy play pitcher on your baseball team when it's obvious to everyone he really can't pitch. He owes it to the team to step down, but maybe he's a certain race, so he can legally compel you to keep him in that position while he loses you game after game.

    Yes, it actually is my position that the worker matters less than the team. It's just a reality check. You can't reward people with resources that never get produced. You certainly shouldn't reward them if they're impeding production by preventing you from putting a better person in their spot.
    What is the function of work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The whites had highest levels of education even at the moment they first arrived to America. One may mention that even those Native Americans, who had some civilization, did not use a wheel.
    That's a terribly ignorant statement.

    You're making the mistake of judging one culture better in some way by the very measure of the culture you're declaring as superior. That is rediculous. While the Native American's didn't use a wheel because they didnt' have a suitable domestic animal to take advantage of them--they did have wonderful dugouts and birch bark canoes. A Natives of the time could have been just as critical as you've been by stating the "whites" (an equalily idiotic catagory most Northern Natives American's could qualify for), didnt' know how to grow squash and corn together, build a birch bark canoe or set up a fish weire. They were educated in different things-but no less educated or intelligent.
    Llama, deer and bison are not suitable to you? Besides, for a wheel-barrow you don't even need an animal.

    Your post is a sample of a de-rationalized discourse. So obviously wrong that I wonder how you can possibly take it seriously. Reminded me of the question no. 12 here:
    http://reverent.org/savage_or_simkin.html
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  83. #82  
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    Why isn't this asshat banned yet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    this asshat
    Come closer and repeat what you said. Closer, closer please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    The whites had highest levels of education even at the moment they first arrived to America. One may mention that even those Native Americans, who had some civilization, did not use a wheel.
    That's a terribly ignorant statement.
    .
    Llama, deer and bison are not suitable to you?
    Not only me but anyone--including the Europeans, either using their closely related species or once they arrived.

    Llama was used for transportation and bred as strong pack animals--a good choice, especially for the mountainous Andes, and vital to the economies of several large civilizations.

    Besides, for a wheel-barrow you don't even need an animal.
    They also used travois attached to dogs, which is just nearly as efficient.

    I'll also remind you that even the Europeans in North American didn't switch to a wheel based transportation until the mid 19th century with the advent of rail--it was cheaper to ship goods by river, sea, or pulled behind mules through canals than over land.

    I can think of no better evaluation of education than to measure it against the requirements that culture and the environment require. Any other culture measured against the standards of your own will appear short. Those "better educated" Europeans as you put it lost many colonies because they weren't educated enough to even grow food, hunt, clear land, tan leather, build shelter and other necessary skills needed to survive. Of course eventually they learned and in combination with huge logistic support from Europe were able to settle enough for their Western education to become relevant. Even after that point, colonist and ethnic Europeans would turn to better educated Natives about the wilds time and time against to explore now lands, guide military campaigns etc.

    Your opinion simply reeks of cultural bias.
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    I actually agree with Lynx Fox about the Indians. The Europeans with their wagons broke a lot of wheels going over trails that weren't designed for that kind of traffic. An indian could move faster than a wagon and didn't have to worry about carrying spare parts.

    In any case, I fail to see what it has to do with this Thread or the simple fact that white people, and more specifically, white men, have the fewest scholarships, the fewest grants, and have a reduced chance of obtaining a position where any other 'minority' with equal or slightly lesser qualifications has.
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    Let go to the root cause. This stupid positive discrimination rules in the US are just a consequence of the root cause: US society is still now, based on an invention of the 18th century, developped during the 19th century and presently refuted by the genetics: races.
    As long as people will not put in their head that the amount of melanine in the skin is one component of a human being but does not define you as an individual, there will be similar problem.
    The so-called "afro-american" are as african as Jimmy Carter or James Dean. Their dream african culture is fake, there is almost no Africa remains in the US. Which is different in the Carribean by the way, where the black inheritage is very heavy.

    So, the positive discrimination culture is stupid simply because it is based on non-existent facts.
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  88. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    It's quite easy to defend yourself when you terminate someone or ask them to step down when you have actual performance data at your side when doing so. The whole "he did it because I'm brown" argument falls pretty quickly to pieces when you show documentation about progress, status checks, conversations discussing performance, provision of opportunities to correct bad performance, etc.

    Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.
    You would be right, if the courts weren't involved. The thing about lawsuits is that they don't have to be true, or even believable to a person who was there, and you can incur a huge financial loss.

    One of the secretaries my father tried to let go of, he was required by HR to hire a life coach to follow her around, just to prove - beyond even the worst skeptic's doubt - that he had done everything in his power to help her succeed. True story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's like letting a guy play pitcher on your baseball team when it's obvious to everyone he really can't pitch. He owes it to the team to step down, but maybe he's a certain race, so he can legally compel you to keep him in that position while he loses you game after game.

    Yes, it actually is my position that the worker matters less than the team. It's just a reality check. You can't reward people with resources that never get produced. You certainly shouldn't reward them if they're impeding production by preventing you from putting a better person in their spot.
    What is the function of work?

    The great adversary of all humanity is the natural universe. Ultimately it's the one that keeps telling us "no" to all our fondest desires. Work is a means of appeasing the natural universe so that it gives us the things we want.

    Some folks make the mistake of thinking that people are that great natural task master that needs appeasing, and if we just all dream together, we can collectively imagine our way to survival. Then, when those imaginings fail and we run short on resources, we just blame someone who isn't us, go kill them them and take their stuff, and the economy gets back on track (leading some people to think those other "bad guys" really were the cause.)

    Of course, they are wrong. It is only our failure to produce competent labor that causes us to end up in these crises.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    It's quite easy to defend yourself when you terminate someone or ask them to step down when you have actual performance data at your side when doing so. The whole "he did it because I'm brown" argument falls pretty quickly to pieces when you show documentation about progress, status checks, conversations discussing performance, provision of opportunities to correct bad performance, etc.

    Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.
    You would be right, if the courts weren't involved. The thing about lawsuits is that they don't have to be true, or even believable to a person who was there, and you can incur a huge financial loss.
    I propose that my point about documentation and effort applies equally when frivolous lawsuits and the court system is involved. I repeat... Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.
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  90. #89  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    It's quite easy to defend yourself when you terminate someone or ask them to step down when you have actual performance data at your side when doing so. The whole "he did it because I'm brown" argument falls pretty quickly to pieces when you show documentation about progress, status checks, conversations discussing performance, provision of opportunities to correct bad performance, etc.

    Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.
    You would be right, if the courts weren't involved. The thing about lawsuits is that they don't have to be true, or even believable to a person who was there, and you can incur a huge financial loss.
    I propose that my point about documentation and effort applies equally when frivolous lawsuits and the court system is involved. I repeat... Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.
    Well, admittedly, HR departments are not always staffed by the smartest people, but you're underestimating the ability of lawyers to obfuscate. The competence you need in order to get rid of their incompetence costs money.

    If you want to win the court case, you'll have to hire highly capable lawyers who charge you full price for their skills, and convince a narrow minded jury who already thinks you're the bad guy just because you're a corporation. Even if you win, it's likely you'll have spent more money than it would cost you in a year to just pay the person's salary and let them stay home all day.
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    [quote="inow"]
    Quote Originally Posted by inow

    Only people who are really incompetent themselves are unable to defend a decision to let go of an incompetent person.
    Cloud cuckoo land is on the horizon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_cuckoo_land
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    Llama, deer and bison are not suitable to you?
    Not only me but anyone--including the Europeans, either using their closely related species or once they arrived.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Llama was used for transportation and bred as strong pack animals--a good choice, especially for the mountainous Andes, and vital to the economies of several large civilizations.
    And could be used to pull a wagon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Besides, for a wheel-barrow you don't even need an animal.
    They also used travois attached to dogs, which is just nearly as efficient.
    Give it a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    I'll also remind you that even the Europeans in North American didn't switch to a wheel based transportation until the mid 19th century with the advent of rail--it was cheaper to ship goods by river, sea, or pulled behind mules through canals than over land.
    Apparantly you were taught PC inctead of American history in school.
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  93. #92  
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    I'll also remind you that even the Europeans in North American didn't switch to a wheel based transportation until the mid 19th century with the advent of rail--it was cheaper to ship goods by river, sea, or pulled behind mules through canals than over land.
    Apparantly you were taught PC inctead of American history in school.
    What you could say positively is that the Native Americans system enabled them to control their own population well enough so that food was always readily available for the small cost of hunting it. Now farming is the only way to survive. Hunting would only support a very small fraction of our population's needs.

    Europeans won because they bred like mice, and the Natives soon found themselves outnumbered. Their trading skills were good enough that, by the time Colonel Custer had begun his wars with them, many of the natives he fought owned better guns than his own soldiers had.
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    The irony Simus is you put up a Caribou with a sled, which doesn't have wheels..LOL. Their actual usefulness for transport is limited to far Northern climates where it's mostly either frozen or too marshy to build roads.

    Apparantly you were taught PC inctead of American history in school.
    Apparently it was PC even in 1832, when this article was written discussing the much cheaper price and advantages of shipping goods from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia by river and canal as compared to the shorter distance over by roads.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=CBY...page&q&f=false

    What I said was true, America didn't switch to a wheel-based system for transporting most of its stuff until the advent of rail--hundreds of years after Europeans arrived in North America. This is why virtually every major city is along a deep water sea port, or navigable river--because use of waterways were far more effective.
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    It's a ridiculous notion that the lack of certain technology is evidence of inferiority anyway. The simple reason for why technologies were missing from the Americas was because the Americas were cut off from the majority of the global human population.

    White people didn't invent the wheel either, nor did the Chinese. The invention spread from Mesopotamia.
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  96. #95  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    The irony Simus is you put up a Caribou with a sled, which doesn't have wheels..LOL. Their actual usefulness for transport is limited to far Northern climates where it's mostly either frozen or too marshy to build roads.

    Apparantly you were taught PC inctead of American history in school.
    Apparently it was PC even in 1832, when this article was written discussing the much cheaper price and advantages of shipping goods from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia by river and canal as compared to the shorter distance over by roads.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=CBY...page&q&f=false

    What I said was true, America didn't switch to a wheel-based system for transporting most of its stuff until the advent of rail--hundreds of years after Europeans arrived in North America. This is why virtually every major city is along a deep water sea port, or navigable river--because use of waterways were far more effective.

    It's still cheaper to ship by water, even today. Much cheaper. We only use wheels to ship to areas the water doesn't go to, which is also how we used them back in the day (stage coaches, covered wagons and such).

    Wheels are an added versatility, but native Americans didn't use Iron or Copper, and that's usually necessary in order to make a wheel practical (at least I don't know of any exceptions). Wood on wood contact produces a lot of friction, so putting iron in the joints allows you to get a lot more mileage out of your cart before it dies. Maybe animal skins would work too, but probably not as well. Toys that use wheels are found in South America among cultures that never were known to use wheels for transport.
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  97. #96 Re: Racial oppression of the whites 
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    Quote Originally Posted by simus
    There is an opinion that the whites are racially oppressed in America

    http://www.vdare.com/lodge/110307_wh..._oppressed.htm
    the premise is utterly ridiculous.

    put any other group into the demographics that whites enjoy and ask yourself if that is what oppression looks like.
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  98. #97 Re: Racial oppression of the whites 
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    Quote Originally Posted by free radical

    put any other group into the demographics that whites enjoy and ask yourself if that is what oppression looks like.
    Do all white people enjoy that status? Every last single one of them? There's no such thing as a poor or underprivileged white person?


    Why is it permissible to use statistically based stereotypes to target white people, but a hate crime if you use them against any other group?
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  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    It's a ridiculous notion that the lack of certain technology is evidence of inferiority anyway. The simple reason for why technologies were missing from the Americas was because the Americas were cut off from the majority of the global human population.

    White people didn't invent the wheel either, nor did the Chinese. The invention spread from Mesopotamia.
    The notion that the wheel was invented in one place and spread to others is ridiculous. There is even the metaphor "reinventing the wheel".
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  100. #99 Re: Racial oppression of the whites 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by free radical

    put any other group into the demographics that whites enjoy and ask yourself if that is what oppression looks like.
    Do all white people enjoy that status? Every last single one of them? There's no such thing as a poor or underprivileged white person?
    The existence of a range of wealth levels among white people, from extremely rich to very poor, is not a sign of racial oppression. The topic is not equality, it is oppression.

    Why is it permissible to use statistically based stereotypes to target white people, but a hate crime if you use them against any other group?
    Black people are statistically poorer than white people. There, did I commit a hate crime?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makandal
    US society is still now, based on an invention of the 18th century, developped during the 19th century and presently refuted by the genetics: races.
    The races had been recognized for millenia and modern genetics confirms their existance

    http://www.npitv.com/264
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