Thread: Governor halts Obama-birth effort

I have just come across this interesting story in the Hawaii news, it was also featured in a publication called the Arab News.com
"Democratic Gov. Neil Abercrombie will end his quest to prove President Barack Obama was born in Hawaii because it is against state law to release private documents, his office said yesterday. Abercrombie, who was a friend of Obama's parents and knew him as a child, launched an effort last month to find a way to dispel conspiracy theories that the president was born elsewhere. The governor said at the time he was bothered by people who questioned Obama's birthplace for political reasons. "

Does anyone know of any reason, why the Democratic Governor Neil Abercrombie, would resurrect this seemingly flogged to death topic ? knowing full well, that it would end up in an American news publication ( and others )
When he started this quest, he must have also known that it was against state law to honour such a request.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/2...th_effort.html

http://arabnews.com/world/article240189.ece

Good question, Dave. Here is another one. Why doesn't Obama just authorize the release of his birth certificate?

Originally Posted by Harold14370

Good question, Dave. Here is another one. Why doesn't Obama just authorize the release of his birth certificate?

I notice this forum doesn't have a "doh" smilie, so I'll use roll eyes instead.




http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp

Originally Posted by Harold14370

Good question, Dave. Here is another one. Why doesn't Obama just authorize the release of his birth certificate?

Consider that the Birthers already ignore not only the certificate that's already been released but also the two independent newspaper reports within a day or so of his birth.

He knows he's dealing with crackpots who don't care how persuasive the facts really are; best to ignore them.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

He knows he's dealing with crackpots who don't care how persuasive the facts really are; best to ignore them.

OK Lynx. so why is the Democrat Governor reviving the " Birther " controversy surrounding Obama ?

Reviving? WTF? Dave - Your own source which you used to open this discussion stated clearly he is ENDING the exploration. Now, you're all apoplectic and suggesting that he's REVIVING the story? The mind simply boggles.

Originally Posted by inow

Reviving? WTF? Dave - Your own source which you used to open this discussion stated clearly he is ENDING the exploration. Now, you're all apoplectic and suggesting that he's REVIVING the story? The mind simply boggles.

inow, yes my sources clearly stated that the Democratic governor had revived the search for Obama`s birth certificate, and it also clearly stated that the Democratic governor was ending the search for details of Obama`s birth certificate, but he knew full well before he started this search, that state law would prevent him from obtaining any details. Does that not strike you as odd ? Have a think about it before you reply.

Originally Posted by inow

Originally Posted by Harold14370

Good question, Dave. Here is another one. Why doesn't Obama just authorize the release of his birth certificate?

I notice this forum doesn't have a "doh" smilie, so I'll use roll eyes instead.




http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp

That's all well and good. My question still stands. I made no claim about where Obama was born.

I don't understand how producing a scanned image of the birth certificate isn't providing proof, it's not like he's going to put photocopies out in the post.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

inow, yes my sources clearly stated that the Democratic governor had revived the search for Obama`s birth certificate, and it also clearly stated that the Democratic governor was ending the search for details of Obama`s birth certificate, but he knew full well before he started this search, that state law would prevent him from obtaining any details. Does that not strike you as odd ? Have a think about it before you reply.

I read the first article only.
The revival was around a month ago. The article reports on the termination of the effort.

Nowhere in there does it state that the Governor knew in advance that state law would prohibit release of the certificate. Even if he did it know in advance there is nothing odd about his revival of the action.

Why do i say that? Several times a month I will approach departments within my company and ask if it is possible to waive a particular rule in a particular case, or if there is another way to achieve the same objective without infringing the rule. Every week I am approached with the same kind of request. In short, exceptions are made, work-arounds are found. That is what the Governor, quite reasonably, was seeking.

Another possible reason is it's quite clear he isn't getting any Birthers vote anyhow.

Under that condition it's best to let them continue to look like the illogical crazies that they are because it turns off moderate Republicans who might vote for him (raised hand).

For all of you who heroically held to your principles that Obama is a big fat liar, you can stop now. The White House released it this morning.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/...th-certificate

n 2008, in response to media inquiries, the President’s campaign requested his birth certificate from the state of Hawaii. The state sent the campaign the President’s birth certificate, the same legal documentation provided to all Hawaiians as proof of birth in state, and the campaign immediately posted it on the internet. That birth certificate can be seen here (PDF).

When any citizen born in Hawaii requests their birth certificate, they receive exactly what the President received. In fact, the document posted on the campaign website is what Hawaiians use to get a driver’s license from the state and the document recognized by the Federal Government and the courts for all legal purposes. That’s because it is the birth certificate. This is not and should not be an open question.

The President believed the distraction over his birth certificate wasn’t good for the country. It may have been good politics and good TV, but it was bad for the American people and distracting from the many challenges we face as a country. Therefore, the President directed his counsel to review the legal authority for seeking access to the long form certificate and to request on that basis that the Hawaii State Department of Health make an exception to release a copy of his long form birth certificate. They granted that exception in part because of the tremendous volume of requests they had been getting. President Barack Obama's long form birth certificate can be seen here (PDF):

<...>

At a time of great consequence for this country – when we should be debating how we win the future, reduce our deficit, deal with high gas prices, and bring stability to the Middle East, Washington, DC, was once again distracted by a fake issue. The President’s hope is that with this step, we can move on to debating the bigger issues that matter to the American people and the future of the country.

Long Form Here --> http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...-long-form.pdf



Happy now? Will all of the crazy bullshit end now that he's agreed to do what you asked of him? Will the poo stained streak of crazy which is running rampant in my country right now go away?

Yeah... I don't think so, either. I'm figuring you'll all just find something else to be crazy about.


I quoted the White House page above for a reason. We have REAL problems to deal with, and we can't even seem to have an adult conversation about the fact that all evidence shows the president was born where he said he was. It makes me sick, sometimes.

Maybe that's part of why they waited to release it. It reminds people like me how stupid insane the other side is, and how I cannot become complacent.

Sorry that doesn't' count. It's a certificate of live birth not a birth certificate. LOL.


--
I think the move by some crackpot state legislators to force laws that take him off the ballets in several states is what forced this issue.

@Dave Wilson

Are you affiliated with Donald Trump by any chance

That released document causes more questions than it resolves, and now appears to be a forged document.

Look closely guys...

I was never one to think he wasn't born here. I did solidly believe he was. Now I question it myself.

Originally Posted by ArezList

@Dave Wilson

Are you affiliated with Donald Trump by any chance

Donald is not a bad dude, it will be interesting to see what he has to say about this revelation.

OK, I have just learned of this news via the car radio on my way from work. I will have to do a bit of reading, starting with the stuff inow posted, and then have a look at other sources, perhaps the " American Thinker ".
Wild Cobra does have a valid point.

Only if you're a fucktard who eats paste.

Originally Posted by inow

Only if you're a fucktard who eats paste.

inow, have you been drinking again ?

I'm not sure how that is even vaguely relevant to me thinking you guys are fools, but no. Have you stopped sodomizing your mother? Jesus, man... Can we please stick to the topic at hand?


Evidence is shared, and the asshats just keep claiming conspiracy, or attacking Obama for "bringing up the subject" or for not sharing it sooner... It doesn't quite matter what he does... The crazy in this country runs deep, and no amount of logic or reason will talk someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither.

I know from getting mine replaced a few times that replacement birth certificates are pretty easy to order, but the individual named in it still has to exist. I think the records hall in Honolulu would say something if a forged birth certificate of which they had no copy present in their records were being waved around by an elected official.

Originally Posted by inow

The crazy in this country runs deep, and no amount of logic or reason will talk someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither.

I'm putting that in my signature.

Thanks. It's even better with Dave being in the UK.

I like how even our president calls these people out for doing little more than wasting our time with nonsense during a time when we face amazing challenges:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNk4sgr-4KI

Originally Posted by inow

Thanks. It's even better with Dave being in the UK.

I holiday in Florida every year. I know quite a few Brits that live out there, so who knows.
Back on topic. I found this marvelous and very informative piece posted on the " American Thinker " Obama`s birth certificate is a forgery.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/...trust_but.html

Obama has better things to do, he serves America, and Oprah

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ell-Oprah.html

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Back on topic. I found this marvelous and very informative piece posted on the " American Thinker " Obama`s birth certificate is a forgery.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/...trust_but.html

You must have a different definition of "marrvelous" and "very informative" than most of us.

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Back on topic. I found this marvelous and very informative piece posted on the " American Thinker " Obama`s birth certificate is a forgery.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/...trust_but.html

You must have a different definition of "marrvelous" and "very informative" than most of us.

Is that all you got?

You know, I think the press's interest in this issue is less focused on the president's birth status itself, and more focused on the nutters who want to press the issue.. The fact a good number of people seriously care about this matter is definitely newsworthy.

The more data/evidence he releases, the more absurd the birthers position becomes, and the more interesting their craziness is to watch. He's trying to get the nation to move their focus away from this, but what will really happen is we will end up focusing on it more. The Circus just keeps getting more sideshows.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Is that all you got?

Sure, how about the fact that the 4th of August was a Friday and the 5th was a Saturday, so the documents were stamped at the Department of Health on a Monday in no obvious order, so their serial numbers are close but not in the order of their birth. Or, the hospital only sent out certificates once a week to avoid the prohibitive cost of individually mailing each one. That seems a far more logical conclusion than there being a 50 year old conspiracy surrounding Obama's place of birth.

The Terry Lakin stuff is equally laughable, he went to jail for disobeying orders. His excuse for disobeying orders was that he thought they were illegitimate orders since Obama isn't American. Total nonsense.

Your link provides no actual evidence or information on how the certificate registration is produced beyond speculation. It is also an entirely retarded complaint in the light of the seriously overwhelming amount of evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii.

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

A lot of the programs I've seen on television have, but I'm unsure it's been added yet to this thread.


Then, there's this:





h/t swansont

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

Sure they have. Liberals love to play the race card, whether it makes any sense or not. What do you think is racist about it?

During the campaign, Obama released his birth certificate. There were then requests that he release the long form since they felt the short form was probably a fake. There was tons of supporting information suggesting the form was not fake, and all evidence pointed to the fact that it was valid and he was born where he said he was. He then just recently released the long form, and now people are saying that's a fake.

The assertion is that had he been white, the short form he released during the campaign would have been enough and this issue would have gone dormant.

The assertion is also that many people don't accept him, in large part because he has darker skin, and use issues like him being a muslim or not being born here as a reason to question his authority to lead.

Also, Harold, I am what you might call a liberal, and I'm not making that claim... no matter how much you think I may "love to play the race card." I suspect that it is incredibly likely that some sizable group of people dislike him because he's black, but I feel the more reasonable explanation for this birther ridiculousness is that these people are really just stupid and crazy.


Ultimately no matter how you slice it... the people making this argument are either stupid, crazy, racist, or some combination of those three not-so-great qualities in a human being.



http://www.thegrio.com/opinion/is-ra...r-movement.php

Are there racists in the birther movement? Absolutely. There are many people who are, consciously or not, uncomfortable with the idea of having an African American President. The disease of racism often cleverly masquerades itself as some seemingly legitimate concern. For example, black boys are placed in special education at a rate that is five times greater than white kids, but not a single teacher in America will argue that racism played a role in their placement decision.

Many birthers hate President Obama and consider him to be an evil man, and don't realize that their outrage might not be the same if Obama did not have brown skin. But the truth is that America has a long history of expressing outrage toward black men, especially those who "don't know their place."

<...>

We know that there are some closet racists in the birther movement. But do all of the birthers consciously promote a racist agenda? Absolutely not. Many members of the birther movement are people who simply don't want Barack Obama to be president. If you want a politician out of office, it is tempting to grab onto anything you can to make your case, and some may even leverage the racism of others to propel their agenda.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ther-movement/

When asked whether questioning the president's birth certificate can be linked to racism, Patrick said, "Well, there might be."

"I think there are people who are organizing around their anger rather than around particular issues." Patrick said. "Anger and fear has been a tool used politically for a long time in the world and is being used I think by the national republican party today.

A fuller exploration here: http://www.alternet.org/rights/14158...y/?page=entire

Originally Posted by Harold14370

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

Sure they have. Liberals love to play the race card, whether it makes any sense or not. What do you think is racist about it?

I don't think its racism so much as a misplaced sense of national pride. I think it's a problem of people wanting to extend the spirit of the requirement that a president be born on American soil a little further to include requiring that his father at least be a native citizen. Black or white, I'm sure it bothers a lot of people that his father was from Kenya.

I can sympathize, but at the same time, the reality is that the founders didn't think to include such a requirement, and that's just that. Crying foul won't make it better.

There were a lot more conspiracy theories going on about Clinton. You had Whitewater, Vince Foster, Mena, the plane crash that killed Ron Brown, etc., etc. Had Clinton been black, I'm pretty sure all those conspiracy theories would have been cast as racist attacks.

On the other side, there were plenty of conspiracy theories concerning George Bush. "Bush knew" about 9/11 for example. Then there were the forged documents that even Dan Rather and CBS fell for.

No need to bring race into it.

Originally Posted by kojax

I don't think its racism so much as a misplaced sense of national pride. I think it's a problem of people wanting to extend the spirit of the requirement that a president be born on American soil a little further to include requiring that his father at least be a native citizen. Black or white, I'm sure it bothers a lot of people that his father was from Kenya.

Well, there is also the fact that Obama doesn't seem to have much national pride and goes around apologizing for America. Europeans love that about him, but it doesn't sit too well with some here.

Originally Posted by Harold14370

Well, there is also the fact that Obama doesn't seem to have much national pride and goes around apologizing for America. Europeans love that about him

Oh, FFS.

Is Obama really black ? He has a black father and a white mother. He does not look especially black to me, so why is he cast as a black guy ?

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Is Obama really black ? He has a black father and a white mother. He does not look especially black to me, so why is he cast as a black guy ?

No, he's not. You'll notice it is always Democrats who mention his race. I guess that serves their purpose.

Originally Posted by Harold14370

You'll notice it is always Democrats who mention his race. I guess that serves their purpose.

You are, of course, absolutely correct, Harold. Nobody but democrats ever refer to the race of our president. Nope. Not a soul. Not one. Never. No how. Pure accuracy in those comments there, Harold. It's ALWAYS democrats. Well done. Glad somebody had the courage to point that out.

You guys are always so correct and honest in your assessments... exemplars of credibility and integrity. It's truly the detail and precision ever-present in your posts which really makes me respect you. Thank you for leading the way as bright shining examples of how respectable intelligent humans behave and discuss subjects. We're all better for your efforts, and you deserve recognition for it.


Silly president who hates america, is not patriotic, kowtows to ferin-ners, is probably muslim, trying to ravage the ideal capitalistic society we've cherished for so long... and on top of it all he claims to be black when he's clearly mixed. Don't you just get so tired of people saying things which are patently untrue? Come on, Mr. President. Will you please finally just admit it so we can install president Palin and VP Beck in your place and engage in jingoistic isolationist policies like all real Meri-cans want?

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Is Obama really black ? He has a black father and a white mother. He does not look especially black to me, so why is he cast as a black guy ?

Cause he's the closest thing we've got.

I'm sure a lot of people wish we could have elected a more purely black leader. But, you know Bill Cosby didn't run. (He'd have had my vote for sure.)

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

That's been obvious from the start. Folks like Limbaugh and Trump pushing it so hard makes it all the more obvious.

Originally Posted by inow

Originally Posted by Harold14370

You'll notice it is always Democrats who mention his race. I guess that serves their purpose.

You are, of course, absolutely correct, Harold. Nobody but democrats ever refer to the race of our president.

It's certainly holding true in this thread, isn't it?

An interesting observation. Perhaps a pole in general

Would anybody be interested in Obama's theme comment, during the CAMPAIGN? Pick you own starting point "the say I'm" I'm this or that, but always ending with "and by the way he is black". I'd suggest outside of BILL CLINTON, no other Candidate (or husband/wife of one) ever mention his race...

He virtually won the race IMO, because his name was Barrack Obama (the underdog) and was black.

Originally Posted by jackson33

He virtually won the race IMO, because his name was Barrack Obama (the underdog) and was black.

I don't remember his ever being behind in the race, though he was a political master at lowering expectations to his own advantage.

And you really think that effect, if it existed, accounted for the number of voters so racist they'd disavow Christianity if they found out the truth that Jesus was probably "half black."

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

I think that's been clear from the beginning. I would have said cowardly rather than snide.

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Has anyone mentioned yet that this birth certificate nonsense appears to be a rather snide, back door piece of racism?

I think that's been clear from the beginning. I would have said cowardly rather than snide.

Do you mean from the beginning of this topic, or from the beginning of Obama`s run at the presidency ?

How do we untangle nationalism from racism? His father wasn't just black. He was a black Kenyan. He wasn't even an American. There will certainly be some nationalistic objection to that, and probably some racists will try to jump on and ride that train.

Obama was "made in America" the same way as a Toyota car might be made in a factory located in the USA, but .... it's still kind of a foreign car.

Originally Posted by jackson33

Would anybody be interested in Obama's theme comment, during the CAMPAIGN? Pick you own starting point "the say I'm" I'm this or that, but always ending with "and by the way he is black". I'd suggest outside of BILL CLINTON, no other Candidate (or husband/wife of one) ever mention his race...

He virtually won the race IMO, because his name was Barrack Obama (the underdog) and was black.

You say that like the man's personal charisma had nothing at all to do with it. I can barely even remember who he ran against....

Originally Posted by kojax

How do we untangle nationalism from racism? His father wasn't just black. He was a black Kenyan. He wasn't even an American. There will certainly be some nationalistic objection to that, and probably some racists will try to jump on and ride that train.

Obama was "made in America" the same way as a Toyota car might be made in a factory located in the USA, but .... it's still kind of a foreign car.

Originally Posted by jackson33

Would anybody be interested in Obama's theme comment, during the CAMPAIGN? Pick you own starting point "the say I'm" I'm this or that, but always ending with "and by the way he is black". I'd suggest outside of BILL CLINTON, no other Candidate (or husband/wife of one) ever mention his race...

He virtually won the race IMO, because his name was Barrack Obama (the underdog) and was black.

You say that like the man's personal charisma had nothing at all to do with it. I can barely even remember who he ran against....

As a foreigner my view of Obama is that he is as forgettable, as the lacklustre Jimmy Carter

As a foreigner, your view plus four dollars will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Originally Posted by Bunbury

As a foreigner, your view plus four dollars will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

As long as it is decaffeinated, that will do just fine.

A lady called Heather Smathers has being doing a little digging into the history of Obama Sr. It seems as if he may have had another wife or wives back in Kenya. Did Obama senior really marry Obama junior`s mother ?

http://www2.az-independent.com/2011/...igration-file/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyUxPA4qLBw

There are or were others, many corroborating interviews, that are "no longer available", but the above was the most widely reported and still available. The point was, NO Republican candidate, if only out of respect or fear, had mentioned race.

In my own following of the campaign, already knowing he had the second highest "Liberal Rating", found he was following that his philosophy, which disturbed me the most. By the way, another US Senator had the highest rating, now being your VP Joe Biden, whom I think is white and I opposed him, even more.

http://digitalartpress.wordpress.com...idential-seal/


There are some, that feel McCain, refused to lower himself to using Race or maybe didn't want to be known (legacy) has the person beating the first viable Black Candidate, but IMO he lost the election to that one slogan, as Hispanic's (about 67%) voted for Obama and in some States, up to 95% of Blacks, bought into this "fake" message. Here, I feel it was more setting out the Election...

You say that like the man's personal charisma had nothing at all to do with it. I can barely even remember who he ran against....

kojax if charisma, is how we choose our leaders, were in serious trouble!!! For the record Obama beat out my first choice Ms. Clinton, not particularly liking either McCain, possibly the most Liberal and indecisive republican available or Huckabee, whom is kind of a religious nut case who also lied about his Arkansas Record as Governor (IMO)...

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

A lady called Heather Smathers has being doing a little digging into the history of Obama Sr. It seems as if he may have had another wife or wives back in Kenya. Did Obama senior really marry Obama junior`s mother ?

http://www2.az-independent.com/2011/...igration-file/

So? Is there a point to this or is it just another example of your childish obsession with our president?

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

A lady called Heather Smathers has being doing a little digging into the history of Obama Sr. It seems as if he may have had another wife or wives back in Kenya. Did Obama senior really marry Obama junior`s mother ?

http://www2.az-independent.com/2011/...igration-file/

So? Is there a point to this or is it just another example of your childish obsession with our president?

Childish ? well if you think so, an obsession, most definitely not. There is far too much mystery that surrounds your president. I really do find it hard to believe that he has got as far as he has. As long as people like Heather Smathers are turning in stories that they get paid for, this stuff is not going away. It is worth pointing out, that this long dead thread, was awoken by a gleeful inow.

Mystery?

The reality is we know more about Obama than probably any president ever. We can read his deeper thoughts and philosophies on thing like non other in his biographies for example.

Much of what's being put up as 'mystery" is pure BS. Who gives a crap about his undergraduate records for example--clearly Harvard made the right choice when they accepted him since he became one of their most successful students.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

I really do find it hard to believe that he has got as far as he has.

Then you understand little about America and Americans.

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

I really do find it hard to believe that he has got as far as he has.

Then you understand little about America and Americans.

Snipe away dude, you have admitted to being a Thatcher child when you lived in the UK, and somewhere along the line you became a Liberal. What happened ?

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

I really do find it hard to believe that he has got as far as he has.

Then you understand little about America and Americans.

Snipe away dude, you have admitted to being a Thatcher child when you lived in the UK, and somewhere along the line you became a Liberal. What happened ?

Your reading comprehension seems to be as bad as your analytical ability.

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

I really do find it hard to believe that he has got as far as he has.

Then you understand little about America and Americans.

Snipe away dude, you have admitted to being a Thatcher child when you lived in the UK, and somewhere along the line you became a Liberal. What happened ?

Your reading comprehension seems to be as bad as your analytical ability.

Bunbury,
You seem to be wearing a ten gallon hat on a two pint head.

I don't wear hats.

You should, they look smart.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

A lady called Heather Smathers has being doing a little digging into the history of Obama Sr. It seems as if he may have had another wife or wives back in Kenya. Did Obama senior really marry Obama junior`s mother ?

http://www2.az-independent.com/2011/...igration-file/

It's not enough to accuse him of being an "equal opportunity" victor in the election. Now you're accusing him of being a bastard too?

Originally Posted by jackson33

You say that like the man's personal charisma had nothing at all to do with it. I can barely even remember who he ran against....

kojax if charisma, is how we choose our leaders, were in serious trouble!!! For the record Obama beat out my first choice Ms. Clinton, not particularly liking either McCain, possibly the most Liberal and indecisive republican available or Huckabee, whom is kind of a religious nut case who also lied about his Arkansas Record as Governor (IMO)...

Maybe, but personal charisma is how we got Ronald Reagan.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

You should, they look smart.

I don't wear hats either. I think they look dumb.

Besides, the women love my hair.

Back to the released document. How many of you think the layers found in the file are questionable. Shouldn't it spark a concern that it may be edited?

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

You should, they look smart.

I don't wear hats either. I think they look dumb.

Besides, the women love my hair.

Back to the released document. How many of you think the layers found in the file are questionable. Shouldn't it spark a concern that it may be edited?

It's not questionable, it's created by the scanner. This same complaint was used about the short form certificate, and then factcheck.org went to Obama's office in Chicago and took a digital picture of the certificate. No actual experts think the layers are suspicious.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...ificate-legit/

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

You should, they look smart.

I don't wear hats either. I think they look dumb.

Besides, the women love my hair.

Back to the released document. How many of you think the layers found in the file are questionable. Shouldn't it spark a concern that it may be edited?

It's not questionable, it's created by the scanner. This same complaint was used about the short form certificate, and then factcheck.org went to Obama's office in Chicago and took a digital picture of the certificate. No actual experts think the layers are suspicious.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...ificate-legit/

I know that, but the fact of the matter does make it possible. Why couldn't we get a classic digital photocopy of it that would not create the conspiracy idea?

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

You should, they look smart.

I don't wear hats either. I think they look dumb.

Besides, the women love my hair.

Back to the released document. How many of you think the layers found in the file are questionable. Shouldn't it spark a concern that it may be edited?

It's not questionable, it's created by the scanner. This same complaint was used about the short form certificate, and then factcheck.org went to Obama's office in Chicago and took a digital picture of the certificate. No actual experts think the layers are suspicious.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...ificate-legit/

I know that, but the fact of the matter does make it possible. Why couldn't we get a classic digital photocopy of it that would not create the conspiracy idea?

Mainly due to the fact that no matter what form of image for the certificate is released there are many people who will choose to not accept it. I wonder how many of the objectors would actually have ever questioned if a document they received using that format had "layers" or not if they did not purposely want to bring doubt. Most dig. tech. is messy when you go beyond the image you see and start looking at the underlying structure.

Well, even besides the layers, the birthers have some other rather serious doubts.





These folks are like smart and stuff. I respect them more and more every day as they lay out their well formulated and reasonable doubts.


Also, people keep saying that he's going to go down in history as the worst president ever. Seriously? If that's true, then why the hell is the best they can come up with a conspiracy about his birth certificate and concerns about his school records before getting into Harvard? Fucking morons, the whole lot of 'em.

Maybe Obama is playing all of us. He was almost certainly born in the USA, of course, but think what a smart strategy it is for him to act kind of cagey about it. He gets a whole society of nutters to emerge looking for proof of wrongdoing. And then.....

When there's some crucial piece of legislation he's after, he can hold a press conference and talk about how immature and childish his opposition is being, thereby motivating voters to ignore them (including any valid points they may have) and focus all of their attention on his program.

Obama roasts Trump at last night's White House Correspondents dinner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCkTzqIW-qw

(Watch in full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mzJhvC-8E )


Seth Meyers from SNL also has a whack at him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWuv2txl_5M


The president also gives a poke to Michelle Bachman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dqsd-v5v-c

Originally Posted by kojax

Maybe Obama is playing all of us. He was almost certainly born in the USA, of course, but think what a smart strategy it is for him to act kind of cagey about it. He gets a whole society of nutters to emerge looking for proof of wrongdoing. And then......

I think you're right. But few doubt that despite what people think of him and his policies he's quite possibly the best politician in living memory. Defeating the Clinton machine was a good clue. This is probably why the republicans are being so timid about entering the race--unless someone comes out of left field, something the republicans aren't good at, the next election is going to be a landslide against them.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Originally Posted by kojax

Maybe Obama is playing all of us. He was almost certainly born in the USA, of course, but think what a smart strategy it is for him to act kind of cagey about it. He gets a whole society of nutters to emerge looking for proof of wrongdoing. And then......

I think you're right. But few doubt that despite what people think of him and his policies he's quite possibly the best politician in living memory. Defeating the Clinton machine was a good clue. This is probably why the republicans are being so timid about entering the race--unless someone comes out of left field, something the republicans aren't good at, the next election is going to be a landslide against them.

I think he should have just left it alone. It was working great to have idiots come out about his birth and they looked like total fools. Now however, he gave them ammunition, since the document is separated in layers.

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Originally Posted by kojax

Maybe Obama is playing all of us. He was almost certainly born in the USA, of course, but think what a smart strategy it is for him to act kind of cagey about it. He gets a whole society of nutters to emerge looking for proof of wrongdoing. And then......

I think you're right. But few doubt that despite what people think of him and his policies he's quite possibly the best politician in living memory. Defeating the Clinton machine was a good clue. This is probably why the republicans are being so timid about entering the race--unless someone comes out of left field, something the republicans aren't good at, the next election is going to be a landslide against them.

I think he should have just left it alone. It was working great to have idiots come out about his birth and they looked like total fools. Now however, he gave them ammunition and added credibility, since the document is separated in layers. It is not a digital copy, but a layered representation of one.

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I think he should have just left it alone. It was working great to have idiots come out about his birth and they looked like total fools. Now however, he gave them ammunition, since the document is separated in layers.

He couldn't. Arizona's statehouse had enough support to make him ineligible to run for president there. Other States were ramping up to the do the same. As any good politicians knows the first priority is always to win elections.

Originally Posted by inow

The crazy in this country runs deep, and no amount of logic or reason will talk someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither.

I read a post today from an Austin group which made me realize how defeatist and wrong this attitude is. I probably could have said it better by suggesting that it's just very difficult to use evidence to rebut the position of a person who seems to disregard evidence.




http://atheistexperience.blogspot.co...-position.html

Well, if we're being very literal, every position someone holds is the product of reasoning. Believing a proposition is the result of being convinced. You can be convinced for good reasons or bad reasons, but as long as the brain is involved (and how could it not be?), reason is involved. In that scope, the statement is wrong because the premise is false. They were, in fact, reasoned into their belief.

Also, in a more colloquial sense, it refers to people whose beliefs were spawned by indoctrination, emotional appeals, socialization/inculturation and other things that aren't normally in the realm of 'pure reason' - and in this scope, the statement becomes a claim that you're just not going to be able to convince them of their error by using strict logical reasoning.

<...>

People, even if they don't realize it, value reason and evidence. We're thinking creatures and critical thinking represents the "best practices" of human thought.

The trick, if that's a fair word, is to get them to realize how much they value the principles of sound thought and get them to apply that to beliefs that have previously been protected from such scrutiny.

I'm not implying that it's always (or ever) easy to accomplish this, but the statement in question implies that it's simply impossible - and nothing could be farther from the truth.

Skepticism, critical thinking, logical reasoning, science - however you prefer to label the most consistently reliable tools we have for discerning reality - are ubiquitously recognized as valuable though not universally applied. We must continue to try to convince people of the value of applying these principles to every claim.

People often become convinced of things for bad reasons and are remarkably good at protecting those beliefs from critical examination - especially if those beliefs have been long-held, publicly professed and are shared by many others in that person's social network. But that doesn't mean that they are forever incapable of recognizing that they've accepted something for bad reasons.

<...>

You can, in fact, reason a person out of almost any belief - it just won't work if the person doesn't see the value of holding reasonable beliefs. The good news is that many, if not most, of the people who don't currently see that value can learn to see it and most already think they do, which is why the Socratic method is so darn useful.

It may sound insightful and it may accurately represent the frustrations of dealing with the most skeptically-challenged, fundamentalists - but it's simply not true in any useful sense and it's time for this sentiment to drift off into Bad Idea land...

Originally Posted by inow

Originally Posted by inow

The crazy in this country runs deep, and no amount of logic or reason will talk someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither.

I read a post today from an Austin group which made me realize how defeatist and wrong this attitude is. I probably could have said it better by suggesting that it's just very difficult to use evidence to rebut the position of a person who seems to disregard evidence.

What evidence ?