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Thread: London student protest/riots....

  1. #1 London student protest/riots.... 
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    Are we at a tiping point where people are no longer willing or able to protest peacefully,where people feel peacefull protest achives nothing?Or will this carry on as for,and this is just a blip on the radar?

    Your thoughts please?


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  3. #2  
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    It is traditional for protests to turn somewhat violent. The degree of violence is generally inversely proportional to the expectation that anything fruitful will come from the protest. This recent series of events is just that - a recent series of events.


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    I too would be angered at a threefold rise in tuition. I could never afford it. Maybe with loans.
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    To be fair, I think that some of the violence was due to the heavy handed police operation. Police are not noted for their tact.

    I feel that the tipping point is that even the generally apathetic british public are now not just taking every Govt decision lying down - they're actually turning out to demonstrate their views directly to the MP's who have promised one thing but then done completely the opposite - what do these politicians expect?

    Whatever credibility this coalition Govt had has been seriously eroded and there is lessening respect for politicians. I note that a further dossier on MP expense claims has been submitted to the CPS.

    In a feww short months, Cameron and Clegg have managed to make politicians as popular as bankers.

    I fully support the students. I recieved a grant for my higher education and I don't agree with making students leave Uni with a 5 figure debt hanging over them.

    My suggestion would be to get rid of some or all the Trident missiles that we pay billions to the Americans and for what? We'll never use them.

    Free education is the best possible investment in the future !
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    A- There can be a few individuals that join any protest for the purpose of causing violence regardless of what the group is about. This even occurs occasionally in large victory parades for sports teams.

    B- There are also occasions when the police state uses Agent Provocateurs, sometimes even Policemen, dressed up as protestors that go in and either incite violence or commit acts themselves, for the purpose of 1- discrediting the protest, 2- diverting the message away from the protesters message and into the circus (reduce the ability of protesters to distribute their message) and 3- giving the excuse for the police to break down the protest

    C- Protest by themselves are not very effective (violent protests are even less effective), and can be totally ignored or distorted by the state propaganda which is the media
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    Surprisingly I've found little evidence of extensive coverage of the story in the US. A five-minute or so spot on CNN and Fox News (don't watch it myself but saw a vid for it when I typed in "london riot" on youtube). Why aren't people discussing the implications of such a travesty? Thousands and thousands of kids will not be getting high skilled jobs...what about the future economy? The civil unrest of the poor/middle-class?
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    Why aren't people discussing the implications of such a travesty?
    Because the Media is the equivalent of state Propaganda on a number of issues.

    In the wake of the Iraq War there was virtually no place in the US media for people opposed to the War. Donahue had a show in which two people had opposing views, one was for the war another was against, but his show was cancelled. Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher was cancelled because he did not have the proper brainwashed attitude, and now years later Bill Maher has turned into a zionist establishment parade boy.

    In recent years there have been huge protests against the Wars, and these got zero media coverage, not 5 minute, not 1 minute, it is effectively as if they never occured, just like in 1984, if you control the mass information you shape the people's perception of reality.

    Note that if a few minutes are taken to cover the riots, they will say "of course the UK cant afford education" as if the UK is Somalia and an education is a giant space program to colonize a moon of Saturn, but they will also not mention that the UK will be spending tens of thousands of million dollars of a Trident missile program, thats about one thousand million dollars each year for the next 20 or 30 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Surprisingly I've found little evidence of extensive coverage of the story in the US. A five-minute or so spot on CNN and Fox News (don't watch it myself but saw a vid for it when I typed in "london riot" on youtube). Why aren't people discussing the implications of such a travesty? Thousands and thousands of kids will not be getting high skilled jobs...what about the future economy? The civil unrest of the poor/middle-class?
    Maybe the British government just doesn't have the money to pay for it. Ever think of that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    they will also not mention that the UK will be spending tens of thousands of million dollars of a Trident missile program, thats about one thousand million dollars each year for the next 20 or 30 years.
    British military spending is at a very low level now, compared to the recent past, and is about to be cut even further.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_769446.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Surprisingly I've found little evidence of extensive coverage of the story in the US. A five-minute or so spot on CNN and Fox News (don't watch it myself but saw a vid for it when I typed in "london riot" on youtube). Why aren't people discussing the implications of such a travesty? Thousands and thousands of kids will not be getting high skilled jobs...what about the future economy? The civil unrest of the poor/middle-class?
    Maybe the British government just doesn't have the money to pay for it. Ever think of that?
    Maybe the wealthy should be taxed more, ever think of that? Education is a right, not a privilege. At least it should be. You are a Republican, no doubt about it.
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  12. #11 upping the ante 
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    I read with interest that the authorities [clearly expecting more of the same] intend to use water cannon against the next set of protestors.

    Way to go there authorities! - this is a monumentally stupid decision which will generate a load of national anti goverment fervour. This government has been in power about 5 minutes and has lost the plot already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Maybe the wealthy should be taxed more, ever think of that? Education is a right, not a privilege.
    This is where you are wrong. Education is a service provided by a person or group of persons to another person or group of persons. Any person does not have a right to the services provided by any other person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    British military spending is at a very low level now, compared to the recent past, and is about to be cut even further.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_769446.html
    Which in no way detracts, debunks, or defames, icewendigo's point that the UK will be spending billions on a nuclear deterrent program.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    B- There are also occasions when the police state uses Agent Provocateurs, sometimes even Policemen, dressed up as protestors that go in and either incite violence or commit acts themselves, for the purpose of 1- discrediting the protest, 2- diverting the message away from the protesters message and into the circus (reduce the ability of protesters to distribute their message) and 3- giving the excuse for the police to break down the protest
    In particular, I think people in government have been learning the art of fabricating provocation. You don't actually need an "agent provocateur" (though there are documented cases of American police doing that - I don't know for sure about UK police.) If you spin it far enough, anything done by any single member of the crowd can be seen as characteristic of the crowd as a whole. And of course, in any heterogeneous group of people, you can always find at least one person who will respond violently to you when you start saying stuff about his/her mother.

    If even just that one person acts out, the police can start hitting people, and of course more people will start acting out if they think the police are physically attacking them.
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    Any time you get a bunch of college kids together, there is a pretty good chance they are going to start busting things up. They don't need much more excuse than a football game. Throw in the fact that they are all upset that they are missing out on their free tuition, and it's a pretty good recipe for a riot. So, this talk about agent provocateurs is a bit far fetched, don't you think?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Any time you get a bunch of college kids together, there is a pretty good chance they are going to start busting things up. They don't need much more excuse than a football game. Throw in the fact that they are all upset that they are missing out on their free tuition, and it's a pretty good recipe for a riot. So, this talk about agent provocateurs is a bit far fetched, don't you think?
    Not really. My recent experience of American college campus tells me that student protests are very orderly in nature. Most of the college students I meet want to be in college. They know they're lucky to be there and that getting expelled for misbehavior will limit their options in life. Maybe UK colleges are different?


    Now, if the police are seen as attacking first, that very likely will provoke a violent response. If the order is: 1)- a small group within the protesters acts out, 2)- The police get their shields and clubs, and overreact to that small group, 3)- The crowd sees it and thinks the police are trying to break them up by force, 4)- Things get ugly....... then I would say that is the fault of an incompetent police force.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Any time you get a bunch of college kids together, there is a pretty good chance they are going to start busting things up. They don't need much more excuse than a football game. Throw in the fact that they are all upset that they are missing out on their free tuition, and it's a pretty good recipe for a riot. So, this talk about agent provocateurs is a bit far fetched, don't you think?
    "Any time you get a bunch of college kids together, there is a pretty good chance they are going to start busting things up. They don't need much more excuse than a football game."
    That is correct some of the time, not always.

    "So, this talk about agent provocateurs is a bit far fetched, don't you think?"
    No, it is not far fetched, it is a possibility, there may be agents provocateur and there may very well be no agent provocateur, its a case by case evaluation. I dont have information to make such an evaluation, but I would not assume off hand there are no AP without getting information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Maybe the wealthy should be taxed more, ever think of that? Education is a right, not a privilege.
    This is where you are wrong. Education is a service provided by a person or group of persons to another person or group of persons. Any person does not have a right to the services provided by any other person.
    What a simplistic and idiotic rebuttal. Education is an investment in a country's future economy...in the case of the UK, US and Western European countries, it can be seen as an investment in the future global economy. If the core of the world system falls apart (which it is beginning to do, it seems)...well, then what can we do to repair it?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Maybe the wealthy should be taxed more, ever think of that? Education is a right, not a privilege.
    This is where you are wrong. Education is a service provided by a person or group of persons to another person or group of persons. Any person does not have a right to the services provided by any other person.
    What a simplistic and idiotic rebuttal. Education is an investment in a country's future economy...in the case of the UK, US and Western European countries, it can be seen as an investment in the future global economy. If the core of the world system falls apart (which it is beginning to do, it seems)...well, then what can we do to repair it?
    Investment in a country's future is a completely different concept than a right.

    Now, besides that, if you don't have money, you can't invest it. It is also a good idea to pay off your debts instead of going deeper into debt, so you will not be paying as much in interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Maybe the wealthy should be taxed more, ever think of that? Education is a right, not a privilege.
    This is where you are wrong. Education is a service provided by a person or group of persons to another person or group of persons. Any person does not have a right to the services provided by any other person.
    What a simplistic and idiotic rebuttal. Education is an investment in a country's future economy...in the case of the UK, US and Western European countries, it can be seen as an investment in the future global economy. If the core of the world system falls apart (which it is beginning to do, it seems)...well, then what can we do to repair it?
    Investment in a country's future is a completely different concept than a right.

    Now, besides that, if you don't have money, you can't invest it. It is also a good idea to pay off your debts instead of going deeper into debt, so you will not be paying as much in interest.
    Wanting to invest in something that I believe should be a right isn't contradictory. The government obviously has money or the royals wouldn't still be rolling around in a Rolls Royce.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler

    Wanting to invest in something that I believe should be a right isn't contradictory. The government obviously has money or the royals wouldn't still be rolling around in a Rolls Royce.
    That's a classic fallacy. It's the same as children who think their parents should be able to afford their favorite toy just because they can afford to pay 50 dollar cable bill.

    The royals are few in number, and therefore easy to pamper out of the national budget. Students who want education, on the other hand, are not so few in number, so if you took the money that goes to one group and gave it to the other, you'd find that is started to spread very thin very fast.
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    Absolutely no fallacy on my part. We don't live in a third world country where education is a rare commodity. We have the means (as well as Western Europe does) to raise money, save money and invest money in whatever we deem to be valuable. I would gladly pay higher taxes on food in order to raise money to support people who can't afford an education.

    And it isn't only the royals that matter. They are just the ones we tend to notice.

    DAMN I hate Republicans...
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Wanting to invest in something that I believe should be a right isn't contradictory. The government obviously has money or the royals wouldn't still be rolling around in a Rolls Royce.
    I doubt that the cost of maintaining the royal family is a significant percentage of the national budget. I wouldn't be surprised if the royal family actually brings in lots of money to Britain in the form or tourism. That's not the point, though.

    There is no relationship between a right and an investment. Honoring somebody's rights may cost the government money, or it may not. Investing money usually is unrelated to any rights.

    In my view, rights are what you are born with, and have as long as other people, and the government, just leave you alone. The US Bill of Rights is what I think of as being rights. On the other hand, there are phony "rights" which are not rights at all, but just socialism. The UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is filled with these kinds of things, like the "right" to a job, or the "right" to an education. Jobs, education, and health care may all be very good things. Just call them something else besides "rights."
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  25. #24  
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    DAMN I hate Republicans...
    Aww, c'mon gottspieler, there's room for everyone in the world, even the blindly selfish and materialistic willfully ignorant. Albeit on an island with a wall around it so that the "inhabitants" are prevented from carelessly throwing all their garbage in the ocean like a bunch of dirty hippies.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    In my view, rights are what you are born with, and have as long as other people, and the government, just leave you alone. The US Bill of Rights is what I think of as being rights. On the other hand, there are phony "rights" which are not rights at all, but just socialism. The UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is filled with these kinds of things, like the "right" to a job, or the "right" to an education. Jobs, education, and health care may all be very good things. Just call them something else besides "rights."
    This is so unbelievably stupid it's hard to believe you are not trolling.
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    socialism
    There's that stupid word again. The same word all Republicans throw around for everything they don't agree with.

    "It's a socialist agenda!"

    "It's communism!"

    I thought you were smarter than that Harold. I thought you were above brainwashing.
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