Notices
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Will Chinese Capitalism Replace the Free Market?

  1. #1 Will Chinese Capitalism Replace the Free Market? 
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Will Chinese Capitalism Replace the Free Market?

    http://bigthink.com/ideas/25068?utm_...m_medium=email

    This article really made an impression on me. I think the Chinese may have something here. Either way we are going to have to deal with it and I would like to know how others on this forum will think on this subject. Personally I think it's going to change the world in a very big way.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    128
    Could you give the original link or the full article?

    We are poor and weak, we can't fulfill the "Replace"ment, at least, eh... in two centuries, I think.

    While you USA people keep prices of commodities stable, we are suffering from the $600 Billion Quantitative Easing Monetary Policy by Bernanke. Billions of dollars are waiting to enter China, I can hardly keep money spend on food.......
    So how can this kind of easily affected country change or threat the world?
    You people exaggerate the weakness nor importance of China by unnecessary emotions.

    Actually, no means to be offensive, I think people in developed countries need to work more.
    Here, we common people work at least 50 hours a week including nights and weekends while we can't be paid even one fifth of your salary level for same work level. We work to survive, Wall Street people work to enjoy luxuries.
    The US Treasury Securities are devaluing and your government stop any Chinese enterprise from controlling interest of US enterprises, on the contrary your gov asked Chinese gov to let foreign capital get fully control in China.
    All these make your gov have the ability to give you high level social welfare. Think about where your gov get that money even when they owe huge debt to others.
    We even can't make your gov be fair on these....what we can do more.....

    If I have any power, I'll change the Wall Street economy, too many lies.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Could you give the original link or the full article?
    I subscribe to Big Think and this link is what I read.

    We are poor and weak, we can't fulfill the "Replace"ment, at least, eh... in two centuries, I think.
    By “we” are you referring to China? If so, I think “poor and weak” are not terms that come to mind.

    While you USA people keep prices of commodities stable, we are suffering from the $600 Billion Quantitative Easing Monetary Policy by Bernanke. Billions of dollars are waiting to enter China, I can hardly keep money spend on food.......
    So how can this kind of easily affected country change or threat the world?
    You people exaggerate the weakness nor importance of China by unnecessary emotions.
    I'm not qualified to speak about commodities and world monetary policy. But I do know there is nothing unimportant about over a billion people entering the world market and work force. As far as being a threat to the world, that comes with the territory of being a world power. I think China is a world power and it's about time the government started doing what's needed to improve the quality of life for it's people.

    Actually, no means to be offensive, I think people in developed countries need to work more.
    Here, we common people work at least 50 hours a week including nights and weekends while we can't be paid even one fifth of your salary level for same work level. We work to survive, Wall Street people work to enjoy luxuries.
    I think you have a very biased view of the United States. Most of us have had jobs which required us to work more than 50 hours per week and I've never met any Wall street people and the ones I've seen on the news haven't exactly made any points on my good wishes list.

    The US Treasury Securities are devaluing and your government stop any Chinese enterprise from controlling interest of US enterprises, on the contrary your gov asked Chinese gov to let foreign capital get fully control in China.
    All these make your gov have the ability to give you high level social welfare. Think about where your gov get that money even when they owe huge debt to others.
    We even can't make your gov be fair on these....what we can do more.....
    High level of social welfare? If you believe that fantasy can I offer to sell you some beach front property at moon base III?

    If I have any power, I'll change the Wall Street economy, too many lies.
    Me too.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    China's cost of living issues are not the fault of Wall Street, they are the fault of the rapid privatization and capitalist reforms that started with Deng Xiaoping. The main problem is that China has switched over to a largely private system without the social security net that Western welfare states developed after the WWII. The danwei used to provide a lot, and so did State Owned Enterprises but those are rapidly disappearing and even the benefits they used to provide are disappearing.

    Pension reform and job insecurity are another big problem of course. And the horrible generational discrepancy, I've seen studies that suggest there will be 1 working Chinese person per 17 retirees in 25 years.

    I think Lance is right to an extent that you have a skewed view of America, just as he has a skewed view of China. Most Americans are working to survive, just like Chinese people in big urban centers. The real living standards differences are between the West and urban China with respect to rural China, and the conditions of the migrant work force.

    China has done a lot for the quality of life of it's people though. Of all developing countries (and let's not be fooled by the size and clout of China as a whole, much of it is as poor as any other developing country), China has made the greatest strides in providing basic medical care to its population. It's not perfect, and change is slow in coming, but I don't see regression in China, I see progress.

    There's a culture of Chinese nationalism that thrives on anti-Western propaganda, and the Western media, especially America, loves to bash China in a similarly skewed manner.
    "I almost went to bed
    without remembering
    the four white violets
    I put in the button-hole
    of your green sweater

    and how i kissed you then
    and you kissed me
    shy as though I'd
    never been your lover "
    - Leonard Cohen
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,590
    Quote Originally Posted by wangwy13
    While you USA people keep prices of commodities stable, we are suffering from the $600 Billion Quantitative Easing Monetary Policy by Bernanke. Billions of dollars are waiting to enter China, I can hardly keep money spend on food.......
    How exactly is this injection of $600 billion into the US economy causing you suffering? I'm no economist and this is a genuine question, not rhetoric. As far as I understand it (which may not be very far) the intent is twofold:

    1. Prevent deflation, which would be truly catastrophic for the US and by extension for you as well. Putting money into the US economy means eventually US consumers will buy more Chinese goods. Seems to me this is good for China.
    2. Signal your government that we will not put up with your currency being artificially low forever. The Fed's action makes the US debt held by China worth less (not worthless) so this is meant as a reminder that China doesn't hold all the cards.

    So how can this kind of easily affected country change or threat the world?
    You people exaggerate the weakness nor importance of China by unnecessary emotions.
    You know the answer. China has already changed the world. It would be hard to exaggerate the importance of any country of a billion or more people with an economy growing at 10% annually. Other than direct economic issues, we might see your consumption of the world's coal resource as a threat, or your apparent support of North Korea (or is it South :P ).

    Actually, no means to be offensive, I think people in developed countries need to work more.
    Here, we common people work at least 50 hours a week including nights and weekends while we can't be paid even one fifth of your salary level for same work level. We work to survive,
    Interesting. Many Americans also work to survive. China has a growing middle class that is doing quite well; at least that's what a colleague of mine tells me. He was born in China and escaped with his parents during the Cultural Revolution. He's now a well-paid engineer for an oil company and a US citizen. He went back for a vacation and met with several engineers in equivalent jobs. He found them enjoying a higher standard of living than he enjoys in the US, and told me he was seriously questioning whether he would not have been better off if he'd stayed in China.

    Wall Street people work to enjoy luxuries.
    I don't know any Wall Street people.

    The US Treasury Securities are devaluing and your government stop any Chinese enterprise from controlling interest of US enterprises, on the contrary your gov asked Chinese gov to let foreign capital get fully control in China.
    I think this is nonsense. However, feel free to substantiate these claims.

    All these make your gov have the ability to give you high level social welfare. Think about where your gov get that money even when they owe huge debt to others.

    We even can't make your gov be fair on these....what we can do more.....

    If I have any power, I'll change the Wall Street economy, too many lies.
    How would you change it? Put Wall Street under government control? Nationalize the biggest companies? Just curious.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    i_feel_tiredsleepy said
    China's cost of living issues are not the fault of Wall Street, they are the fault of the rapid privatization and capitalist reforms that started with Deng Xiaoping. The main problem is that China has switched over to a largely private system without the social security net that Western welfare states developed after the WWII. The danwei used to provide a lot, and so did State Owned Enterprises but those are rapidly disappearing and even the benefits they used to provide are disappearing.
    Well we had to go through a long painful growing experience, why should they be any different, and I'm not sure we've finished the painful part over here yet.

    Pension reform and job insecurity are another big problem of course. And the horrible generational discrepancy, I've seen studies that suggest there will be 1 working Chinese person per 17 retirees in 25 years.
    This is one hell of a scary statistic. I hope they don't follow our lead on social security. Maybe they could do something that we could follow their lead on.

    I think Lance is right to an extent that you have a skewed view of America, just as he has a skewed view of China. Most Americans are working to survive, just like Chinese people in big urban centers. The real living standards differences are between the West and urban China with respect to rural China, and the conditions of the migrant work force.
    I do confess my ignorance about life in China. I only know what I see and read in the news.

    China has done a lot for the quality of life of it's people though. Of all developing countries (and let's not be fooled by the size and clout of China as a whole, much of it is as poor as any other developing country), China has made the greatest strides in providing basic medical care to its population. It's not perfect, and change is slow in coming, but I don't see regression in China, I see progress.
    I can only imagine what China would be like with over a billion educated citizens and that could happen in a much shorter period of time than we think is possible.

    There's a culture of Chinese nationalism that thrives on anti-Western propaganda, and the Western media, especially America, loves to bash China in a similarly skewed manner.
    They are an emerging world power that I would hate to have as an enemy.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    128
    Firstly, I wish you to know, I only think USA gov hasn't do enough to make the global responsiblility. Like Lance, I talk about what I know, surely I'll ignore some important things, the only advantage is I read English...
    China is a world power, indeed, a much weaker world power compared to USA.
    Comparision is important to look China. You work long time too, of cause, but what about the salary and the labor intensity. As far as I know, the number of money been paid to the workers in both country is similar, say it 2000 Yuan to us, 2000 $ to USA people, but take iphone for example, that is 200$ to you, >4000 to us(iphone is assembled in China then export to USA), or a t-shirt, 20$ for you maybe, at least 400 for us of same brand. And, when nearly everyone has social welfare in USA(right or wrong?), not so many of us even have the so called welfare. Nowadays, your welfare is decreasing, ours has just been started.
    When you see the countryside of China, you know what means poor, some villages still do not have electricity. Beijing and Shanghai is only small areas to the large country.
    From these comparision, aren't we poor?
    About the one billion people, this is historical problem, China is always most populated in world, we are not snap a finger and 'pong' show up in the world. We work in the world, past, now, future. To catch up with the world, we mainly made low value-add work, a long time, maybe we are doomed to be paid less....maybe
    But the USA economy policy certainly make our money even less valuable. Bernanke's policy is more...magic than our population, he said the $600 Billion, even without printing them, he got the money. I'm not any economist, but in my eyes, this money has no value, not produced nor demanded by working. USA has abandoned most low value-add productions which we make most, and we are not allow to buy some high value-add productions from USA like high efficient chips, space technique components, conventional weapon systems. So even there is the $600 billion money, Chinese trade surplus continues, no extra working opportunity will come to USA, until USA change her production line to provide more conventional low value-add productions or you purchase only much more expensive domestic goods, since India, Brazil, Mexico, they are all waiting. Bernanke's policy only delay the big problem to USA, and to world.

    PS:
    Typical examples of Chinese commercial merging denied by USA gov,
    1. Huaiwei & ZTE http://www.telecomasia.net/content/u...nt-nextel-deal
    2. China's Northwest Non Ferrous International Investment on the gold mine issue
    Both for security reasons
    Meanwhile, Cisco, DuPont, even Coca-cola keep their dominant state in China.

    I'd wish both governments keep distance to the strategy like show a big card and bluster. We are not playing poker, there is no defeated ones, if one lose both lose. Aren't we in the global economy century? The Chinese gov should keep more open, and USA gov should get control of the financial magnate.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Wenban

    We are poor and weak, we can't fulfill the "Replace"ment, at least, eh... in two centuries, I think.
    By “we” are you referring to China? If so, I think “poor and weak” are not terms that come to mind.
    In case you didn't know, Wangwy13 is actually from China. That's why it's so awesome when we posts on these topics. He sees China at the ground level, like how we see the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by wangwy13
    Could you give the original link or the full article?

    We are poor and weak, we can't fulfill the "Replace"ment, at least, eh... in two centuries, I think.

    While you USA people keep prices of commodities stable, we are suffering from the $600 Billion Quantitative Easing Monetary Policy by Bernanke. Billions of dollars are waiting to enter China, I can hardly keep money spend on food.......
    So how can this kind of easily affected country change or threat the world?
    You people exaggerate the weakness nor importance of China by unnecessary emotions.
    China has its physical economy in place (factories, and soon electricity production from hydro-electric power). It's only a matter of time before the financial part catches up to that.

    I think the only reason the USA can control currency values like it does is because for so long of a time we were the most productive country on Earth (especially in the time immediately following World War II). It's not true anymore, because we keep moving our factories overseas, and if we move enough of them away, then pretty soon we might lose our power over the financial world too.

    Actually, no means to be offensive, I think people in developed countries need to work more.
    Here, we common people work at least 50 hours a week including nights and weekends while we can't be paid even one fifth of your salary level for same work level. We work to survive, Wall Street people work to enjoy luxuries.
    That's the best way for an economy to run. People actually work harder when they're pursuing luxuries than they do when they're trying to survive. Survival just motivates you to do the minimum.

    The USA has a natural advantage in this respect, however, because our farms produce more food than we need to eat, which means food is always cheap here. Being a farmer is a highly respected profession because everyone is aware that they are the reason why we have such a good lifestyle.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Wangwy13 I understand and appreciate your comments. I think you must have a decent education sense your English is much better than my Chinese. So I'm very sure I could learn a lot about China from you that I'll never see on the news. I can't even hardly imagine what it would be like to live without electricity. If you were to take my car, TV, computer and phone away, I'd have to go kill myself. But I'm equally sure if I was born without those things I'd never miss them. However the point of this article that impressed me is the new attitude of the Chinese government and the dramatic action they are taking to develop their country is unprecedented. The very term “Chinese capitalism” is somewhat shocking to me, and then I read that model of capitalism is admired and will most likely be adopted by many other developing countries. The real test of any system is the level of success it produces. But I can already see that it's going to be very successful and I have no doubt that it will change the world in a big way. Also I wonder if we are going to be able to compete with it without making some big changes to our system.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •