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Thread: Bad Cultures

  1. #101  
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    Note sure what you are referring to. I value cultural diversity in the US and think it not only enriches us as a nation but broadens our perspective about the rest of the planet; former is valuable, the later is essential. The question is to what degree of course. I think our laws and ideals are of great value (and have committed most of my adult life to protecting them) so I think that those should remain and apply to all immigrants just as they apply to citizens. But when it comes to music, art, food, architecture, dress etc and perhaps most importantly language I think it's good for immigrants to retain that as well so long as they also learn English.

    My statement in () is about other cultures, for whom much of the frustration against Western culture boils down to them be unable to retain core elements of their culture against the juggernaut of Western advertising and exploitation.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

    Immigrants bring cultural richness we need. (on an international level it's the root cause of why many cultures hate Western influence)
    Are you talking about third world immigrants ? Are you talking about third world cultures ? This is the sort of convoluted nonsense, that is starting to cause great harm to Western Nations.
    Are you talking about third world immigrants that came from places that we have basically plundered their resources without giving much back in return? Or places where we supported repressive governments because they were willing to support our foreign policies and agendas? If we could do a little more to help bring up the standard of living for all people living in those areas, there would be less third world immigrants wanting to immigrate and if they did still want to immigrate more of them would be better educated.
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    I'm talking about all immigrants. As already discussed in this thread, folks immigrate to the US or Europe for many reasons. It's usually worse in some way where they are coming from than they think it is in their new home or they wouldn't be immigrating.
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  4. #104  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Note sure what you are referring to. I value cultural diversity in the US and think it not only enriches us as a nation but broadens our perspective about the rest of the planet; former is valuable, the later is essential. The question is to what degree of course. I think our laws and ideals are of great value (and have committed most of my adult life to protecting them) so I think that those should remain and apply to all immigrants just as they apply to citizens. But when it comes to music, art, food, architecture, dress etc and perhaps most importantly language I think it's good for immigrants to retain that as well so long as they also learn English.

    My statement in () is about other cultures, for whom much of the frustration against Western culture boils down to them be unable to retain core elements of their culture against the juggernaut of Western advertising and exploitation.
    How do you propose to keep just the parts you mentioned but not allow the arriving cultures to restructure our laws? When a police officer gets caught taking bribes, how do you think a primarily Mexican voting population will respond to that? Do you think he'll get punished as severely as he would if a bunch of Midwestern American farmers were voting on the same issue?

    On the individual level, successful people are usually the ones you want to learn from in order to be successful. Why would we not treat cultures the same way? Learn from the ones that have something to teach, not from Mexico. All that country can teach us how to do is fail miserably like they have. I'd rather take my lessons from places like Japan, Germany, or maybe even Botswana (because they are an interesting exception to the rule of African countries being horrible places to live).

    Even Egypt might have something to teach us now, looking at what they just did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

    The family size comments are ugly. While I agree with you in general that large families are bad for the planet, I strongly disagree with condemning an immigrant who comes from a society that growing old without starvation means having lots of kids to take of you for continuing that "tradition" for a few generations.
    I'm torn between admitting you are right, and expressing my concern that some cultural groups will consciously choose to over breed in order to establish a democratic majority or plurality - so they'll have a stronger voice in government.

    If you go to Utah some time, visit Temple Square in Salt Lake, and watch some of the videos on Mormon history, that's a fine example of a culture that deliberately started breeding excessively in order to establish its numbers. The main drive was originally to avoid being persecuted by their neighbors, ...... but to this day, 6 kids is a highly typical family size.
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  5. #105  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    How do you propose to keep just the parts you mentioned but not allow the arriving cultures to restructure our laws?
    We've been doing it for more than two hundred years and many waves of immigrants--Germans, Irish, Italians, French Canadians, Mexicans etc. Our Constitution is still intact and can remain so for current and future immigrants.


    Learn from the ones that have something to teach, not from Mexico. All that country can teach us how to do is fail miserably like they have.
    Failed miserably? They work their butt off long and harder than many other groups, have very good family values--those are tangible values. The intangibles are plenty including food, music, holidays, languages, dress etc. Many of the problems we associate with Hispanic immigrants are already settling down. After age distribution and economic status is accounted for Hispanic crime rate for example is already very similar to the white non-immigrant population (and dropping).
    http://www.amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/

    If you go to Utah some time, visit Temple Square in Salt Lake, and watch some of the videos on Mormon history, that's a fine example of a culture that deliberately started breeding excessively in order to establish its numbers. The main drive was originally to avoid being persecuted by their neighbors, ...... but to this day, 6 kids is a highly typical family size.
    You have a good example except they aren't immigrants (where they?). My French Canadian family is similar (I have over 70 first cousins) and like the Hispanics it's due to Catholicism which discourages effective birth control. But collectively the US doesn't share a consensus on the importance of small families. I do because I'm a tree huger (albeit a pragmatic one...I hope) who's very worried about the planet we leave our grand kids; few seem to share my opinion. (My wife and I had one kid and aren't Catholic).
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    How do you propose to keep just the parts you mentioned but not allow the arriving cultures to restructure our laws?
    We've been doing it for more than two hundred years and many waves of immigrants--Germans, Irish, Italians, French Canadians, Mexicans etc. Our Constitution is still intact and can remain so for current and future immigrants.
    That is because those groups assimilated instead of trying to assert themselves.

    We only kept maybe the best 5% or something of what their cultures had to offer. And, that is the right way to do it. It makes it a process of improvement instead of a process of decline. If you mix and match attributes just for the blind sake of "diversity" what you will end up with is a half-third-world-country.

    Learn from the ones that have something to teach, not from Mexico. All that country can teach us how to do is fail miserably like they have.
    Failed miserably? They work their butt off long and harder than many other groups, have very good family values--those are tangible values. The intangibles are plenty including food, music, holidays, languages, dress etc. Many of the problems we associate with Hispanic immigrants are already settling down. After age distribution and economic status is accounted for Hispanic crime rate for example is already very similar to the white non-immigrant population (and dropping).
    http://www.amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/
    Mexico is a failed state because the only place they can get paid a fair wage for their hard work is up here.

    Down in Mexico, if you want to run a business you have to bribe everyone to high heaven, and keep bribing them every day your doors are open. That leaves precious little money to pay your workers with. It's not because their economy just so happens to be bad. It's because their culture is broken to the point where they casually let corrupt officials walk all over them. In the USA, people like that would get lynched if the authorities didn't remove them.

    It's a complicated problem, too. It goes beyond just a mere willingness to fight about stuff. A lot of Latin American groups know how to fight, and end up massacring each other. The difference is that Americans know exactly what to fight about, and who to target, so we can be surgical about it. But, that's stuff that doesn't get taught in college. It only gets taught in culture. You watch an American Western, and you understand that a corrupt sheriff gets run out of town, and everyone's happy about it in the end.
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  7. #107  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's a complicated problem. It goes beyond just a mere willingness to fight about stuff. A lot of Latin American cultures know how to fight, and end up massacring each other. The difference is that Americans know exactly what to fight about, and who to target, so we can be surgical about it. But, that's stuff that doesn't get taught in college. It only gets taught in culture. You watch an American Western, and you understand that a corrupt sheriff gets run out of town, and everyone's happy about it in the end.
    I will admit there's much to what you are saying, however, I think you are making things in the U.S. look better than they are. People don't like politicians for a reason. Many of them do take bribes and kickbacks and give favors expecting to collect favors in return. They are much better at keeping it all under the table and out of sight, because of the very attitude you've been talking about. Most of the Latin American countries are a little more open and flagrant about it.

    I think having a protected free press and strong whistle blowing protection, does make a huge difference in public attitude, when real laws are backed up with appropriate penalties. I wonder why the U.S. hasn't done more to help these countries have cleaner less obvious corruption in their governments?

    Also I wouldn't read to much into our culture by what you see in old westerns. Movie making back then was not a good picture of our reality.
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    Calling Mexico a failed state is a bit sensationalist. The country is above the world average for per capita GDP and in the top 20 for nominal GDP. It's hardly the poverty ridden cesspool people make it out to be. It even has a faster growing economy than the USA.

    Kojax you're making a lot of broad sweeping claims about both Mexican and American culture that harshly reductionist.
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  9. #109  
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Calling Mexico a failed state is a bit sensationalist. The country is above the world average for per capita GDP and in the top 20 for nominal GDP. It's hardly the poverty ridden cesspool people make it out to be. It even has a faster growing economy than the USA.

    Kojax you're making a lot of broad sweeping claims about both Mexican and American culture that harshly reductionist.
    Your Stats are probably correct, but I have to tell you the worst poverty I ever saw in person was in Baja California. I went on a marlin fishing trip down there and I drove by shacks built on the dirt with no running water or electricity and naked little kids playing in the dirt. That sight made an impression that has never left me and that was over 30 years ago.
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    I had a friend who's father had been a successful furniture manufacturer down in Baja. The whole idea of a successful entrepreneur starting from nothing and making his way had me all inspired, like maybe Mexico isn't so bad. Then, on another occasion he described to me how he'd been arrested, and all he had to do to get out of jail was drop the name of one of his 2nd uncles who was a "Juicial" (which apparently means some kind of chief of police) and he was released.

    .....Then, putting two and two together I finally understood how his father had come to be a successful business owner: he didn't have to pay bribes. Mexico has lots of industry. I'm betting that most of it works like that. Either you know somebody that's willing to do you favors, or you don't and you have to pay bribes. The bribe payers are always going to be dirt poor, of course, because bribe solicitors tend to scale their "requests" to the bribe payer's ability to pay.

    No point working extra hard for extra money if you're not going to be allowed to keep any of it anyway. Do we really wonder why Mexico doesn't rise out of its situation?
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  11. #111  
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    Mexico is complex for sure. As one bit of that some estimate that more than $100 billion dollars of money cross the Mexican/American border in the form of drugs, guns etc.
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  12. #112  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    No point working extra hard for extra money if you're not going to be allowed to keep any of it anyway. Do we really wonder why Mexico doesn't rise out of its situation?
    It is rising though, the majority of the population is now in the middle class and above the global poverty line. The country has undergone steady growth and improvement since the 50s. Moreover, its long history of rebellion against foreign powers (like when it was occupied by France in the 19th century) and against dictatorships in the 19th century seems to suggest your idea of Mexican people as weak willed and easily pushed around by oppression is simply myopic.

    Certainly corruption is a problem, but is it a cultural problem? I don't think so, corruption of civil servants is a result of poverty in general. The US treatment of the drug trade has certainly created great incentives for corruption along the border. The growth and improvement of living conditions in Mexico seems to prove that they do have the cultural will to combat corruption and improve their condition.
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    I have to admit those are valid points. Mexico's past was worse than its present, so maybe its present will turn out to be a lot worse than its future. If so, I think that would demonstrate that I'm wrong, and education or lack of education is the driving force behind poverty (as I think most people already agree), rather than culture.

    Back in the 1950's Mexico had a horrible education rate, but lots of deliberate effort has been focused on solving that problem. In some Latin countries, the two main issues of Health and Education account for well over 50% of the state's budget (I was told that in an econ class on South America..... so I don't know the source...... just a an Econ professor from Argentina.)

    It will be interesting to see how the experiment plays out. Either it will succeed and prove that education is what matters, or it will fail and demonstrate that the culture is what matters. (Though it may not quite be conclusive proof.)
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    I have strongly believe that a culture really drop the good or bad impact on the society.
    Directly we can say that culture is responsible and liable for the situation of the society.
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    I thought this thread was totally dead. I'm coming to see the folly of being excessively xenophic. The problem isn't any one culture being better or worse than any other. The problem is cultural pluralism itself. It creates an environment where you can't decry anything as being wrong unless you have absolute proof (and even then...) but praise will be accepted on the slimmest of premises.

    Any successful cultural system has to make unambiguous decisions from time to time. Rather than entertain 5 contradictory moralities, it has to choose just one, and eschew the other 4. It can't both be right to punish people for the sins of their ancestors, and wrong to punish people for the sins of their ancestors. It can't both be both acceptable to commit crime if you're poor or live in a ghetto and unacceptable. The ideals espoused in country and rap music define two cultures that can never live side by side without copious amounts of pork barrel government spending to grease/smooth things out. Fortunately in most cases they don't have to. The country folk just gather outside the cities and form semi-closed communities.
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  16. #116  
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    Here is another example of the enemy within that we have here in the UK. They all have very British sounding names.

    BBC News - Four Birmingham men face terrorism charges
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    The problem is that we make cultural judgments often off of the basis of our own cultural biases.
    Exactly.


    "I think we all universally agree that it was a bad culture, and nobody misses it now that it's gone underground."
    Culture is an artificial construct. Each culture is a combination of numerous features and cultural/methods/information/views elements from the past, from other cultures.

    In addition, if a dictator calls his regime "Democracy" and kills people, it doesnt mean democracy is bad, it just means someone using that label did bad things.
    Of course. Hitler invading countries and making unprovoked aggressive war is BAD. Bush/Obama doing same thing is GOOD, SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

    Seriously, Hitler justified subjugating Untermenschen based on their supposed inferiority as evidenced by- culture.

    He was only doing same thing Britons and other Europeans had done for CENTURIES, using racist justifications and going farther afield to CHINA and other places bearing the "White Man's Burden". Sickening.

    That said, you want to see a decadent culture, pandering to the worst in people, riddled with ugliness, vice, and corruption? Turn on your television.
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  18. #118  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Here is another example of the enemy within that we have here in the UK. They all have very British sounding names.

    BBC News - Four Birmingham men face terrorism charges
    Okay, bully for you. And are the prisons of Old Blight not filled with chaps with "British sounding names"? Maybe if you gobshites were not busy pushing drugs around the world and drawing maps to suit your greedy interests, people would not want to bomb the crap out of you, ever think of that? Britain is a shining example of a backward, inferior culture, a monarchical theocracy with a decaying economy, rampant drug abuse and violence. Easy to point the racist finger, harder to clean up your own act. Offended? Then do something about it.

    Violence has dented Britain's global reputation - Rediff.com India News

    Britain now official drugs capital of Europe as more youngsters use cocaine, ecstasy and amphetamines | Mail Online
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  19. #119  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Here is another example of the enemy within that we have here in the UK. They all have very British sounding names.

    BBC News - Four Birmingham men face terrorism charges
    Okay, bully for you. And are the prisons of Old Blight not filled with chaps with "British sounding names"? Maybe if you gobshites were not busy pushing drugs around the world and drawing maps to suit your greedy interests, people would not want to bomb the crap out of you, ever think of that?
    The lines are drawn to prevent nuclear war. No other reason. You can't have MADD without clear definitions for what counts as violating MADD. Unfortunately, the countries with no strong alliance to any nuclear power lose out. Nobody is afraid to invade them because they know they won't be upsetting the important peace (the one between countries that can wipe out humanity if they get their feelings hurt.)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    The problem is that we make cultural judgments often off of the basis of our own cultural biases.
    Exactly.




    "I think we all universally agree that it was a bad culture, and nobody misses it now that it's gone underground."
    Culture is an artificial construct. Each culture is a combination of numerous features and cultural/methods/information/views elements from the past, from other cultures.


    In addition, if a dictator calls his regime "Democracy" and kills people, it doesnt mean democracy is bad, it just means someone using that label did bad things.

    Of course. Hitler invading countries and making unprovoked aggressive war is BAD. Bush/Obama doing same thing is GOOD, SUPPORT THE TROOPS!


    Seriously, Hitler justified subjugating Untermenschen based on their supposed inferiority as evidenced by- culture.


    He was only doing same thing Britons and other Europeans had done for CENTURIES, using racist justifications and going farther afield to CHINA and other places bearing the "White Man's Burden". Sickening.


    That said, you want to see a decadent culture, pandering to the worst in people, riddled with ugliness, vice, and corruption? Turn on your television.

    That's why cultural separatism is better. We should leave everyone else alone and be left alone by them. Globalization forces us to each others' doorsteps, and then the stronger players take everything from the weaker players. Absent an overarching source of authority and/or government, the strong always rob from the weak.


    Globalization is just an attempt to get rid of that government by having all the transactions take place in a way where nobody has a strong claim of sovereignty.
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  20. #120  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Here is another example of the enemy within that we have here in the UK. They all have very British sounding names.

    BBC News - Four Birmingham men face terrorism charges
    Okay, bully for you. And are the prisons of Old Blight not filled with chaps with "British sounding names"? Maybe if you gobshites were not busy pushing drugs around the world and drawing maps to suit your greedy interests, people would not want to bomb the crap out of you, ever think of that? Britain is a shining example of a backward, inferior culture, a monarchical theocracy with a decaying economy, rampant drug abuse and violence. Easy to point the racist finger, harder to clean up your own act. Offended? Then do something about it.

    Violence has dented Britain's global reputation - Rediff.com India News

    Britain now official drugs capital of Europe as more youngsters use cocaine, ecstasy and amphetamines | Mail Online
    Just back home after a night out with the boys. Your post does warrant some thinking time. I will give it my consideration, then I will get back to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twit of wit View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Quote Originally Posted by Twit of wit
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

    In my opinion English is a universal language, if it is not broken, do not fix it.
    It is broken, especially written english.
    At the risk of being savaged, will you please explain what you mean ?
    It's spelling is horrible, it's vocabulary is a mess.
    You mean "its" in both cases, dotcomrade. English is infested with irregular verbs and words stolen from other languages, as Old Blight is infested with larcenous, drunken Englishmen. This much is perfectly consistent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Here is another example of the enemy within that we have here in the UK. They all have very British sounding names.

    BBC News - Four Birmingham men face terrorism charges
    Okay, bully for you. And are the prisons of Old Blight not filled with chaps with "British sounding names"? Maybe if you gobshites were not busy pushing drugs around the world and drawing maps to suit your greedy interests, people would not want to bomb the crap out of you, ever think of that? Britain is a shining example of a backward, inferior culture, a monarchical theocracy with a decaying economy, rampant drug abuse and violence. Easy to point the racist finger, harder to clean up your own act. Offended? Then do something about it.

    Violence has dented Britain's global reputation - Rediff.com India News

    Britain now official drugs capital of Europe as more youngsters use cocaine, ecstasy and amphetamines | Mail Online
    Just back home after a night out with the boys. Your post does warrant some thinking time. I will give it my consideration, then I will get back to you.
    Looking forward to it. Presumably at that time your MONARCH will still be HEAD of the CHURCH as has been true since the days of Henry Tudor, VIII, and will retain the power to appoint the Prime Minister, and through this expendable whipping boy(or girl), control the government of the kingdom.

    "WAIT!" Prince hears the cry- the UK has a "constitution"! His reply is that an unwritten document is not worth the paper it is not written on, it is a sham, a farce, and a con, believed in only by the most gullible of sheep.

    Shoe bomber Richard Colvin Reid had rather a British sounding name, incidentally.

    Richard Reid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson
    Inow, you are trying to wind me up, right.
    Yes... Usually when I tell someone to chillax, that means I'm trying to wind them up. Nothing gets past you, Dave.
    Heheheh...
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    Either way, Britain would not be better run by Muslims, or any other kind of immigrant. Nor will Afghanistan be better run by Americans. Every country is best run by its own hegemonic culture. Police and government from that culture will always have the easiest time obtaining voluntary cooperation from the population, and voluntary cooperation is a lot cheaper than the involuntary variety, and more effective when applied.

    Iraq has always had the problem that there is no hegemonic culture. There are just three, equally strong contenders. That's why whoever ultimately gets to be in charge always has to be a brutal dictator. It's the only way to bring the two cultural groups he/she is not from into line. Sadaam didn't have to commit atrocities against the Sunni. Indeed .... one could argue that Iraq is an exception to the above rule. An outsider may have more success than a local leader. (Because at least all three groups will hate that person equally.)
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    Sadaam didn't have to commit atrocities against the Sunni.
    It's not that simple, (if only it were). He committed massive ethnic cleansing of Sunni, killing hundreds of thousands and destroying hundreds of towns that even today lay in ruin--they just happened to also be Kurdish. But you got the gist right. More than a dozen groups, all with strong religious, tribal, and family allegiances, some who's land claims go back centuries, many others immigrants from Egypt, Iran and other places. Also Saddam was many times willing to break those lines whenever they were seen as a threat to himself or the broader secular Baathist ideals of Arab-nationalism.
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  26. #126  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Here is another example of the enemy within that we have here in the UK. They all have very British sounding names.

    BBC News - Four Birmingham men face terrorism charges
    Okay, bully for you. And are the prisons of Old Blight not filled with chaps with "British sounding names"? Maybe if you gobshites were not busy pushing drugs around the world and drawing maps to suit your greedy interests, people would not want to bomb the crap out of you, ever think of that? Britain is a shining example of a backward, inferior culture, a monarchical theocracy with a decaying economy, rampant drug abuse and violence. Easy to point the racist finger, harder to clean up your own act. Offended? Then do something about it.

    Violence has dented Britain's global reputation - Rediff.com India News

    Britain now official drugs capital of Europe as more youngsters use cocaine, ecstasy and amphetamines | Mail Online
    Just back home after a night out with the boys. Your post does warrant some thinking time. I will give it my consideration, then I will get back to you.
    I have come to the conclusion that The Finger Prince is a whack job.
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    an unwritten document is not worth the paper it is not written on
    LOL, good one.

    (The UK should be named AirStrip One, since its an Orweillian 1984 cctv police state)
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    I can't see how else other than using Orwellian methods one could hope to keep all of the people in all of the subcultures in check. Anarchy would probably work in a society where everyone agrees what is right and what is wrong, but the only way everyone would ever agree on that is if thought police took care of all the dissenting thinkers who start imagining different moralities.

    There used to be such thought police in the USA. They were called preachers. You either believed in some form of protestant Christianity or the local townsfolk quickly found some way or another to be rid of you. "Freedom of Religion" was just the freedom to choose which form of protestant Christianity you preferred.
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    Prince's bias is showing and does not intend to insult any dotcomrade personally. All cultures have individual characteristics, so is there reason to say one is "good" or "bad"? Can we be objective on such matters?

    Possibly.

    Prince holds that health and education are good indicators as to degree to which culture or state serves its members, that low infant mortality, high life expectancy, and high literacy are objective indicators of same. Other indicators are incidence of violence and drug abuse, percentage of population incarcerated, energy consumption per capita, percentage unemployment?

    Is there agreement, dissent, or other examples from worthy forum members? Goodwill to all.
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  30. #130  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that The Finger Prince is a whack job.
    You are catching on to what conclusion many have arrived at before you, progress. The question of dispute then becomes "Is Prince an incorrect whack job with regard to statements?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Either way, Britain would not be better run by Muslims, or any other kind of immigrant. Nor will Afghanistan be better run by Americans. Every country is best run by its own hegemonic culture. Police and government from that culture will always have the easiest time obtaining voluntary cooperation from the population, and voluntary cooperation is a lot cheaper than the involuntary variety, and more effective when applied.

    Iraq has always had the problem that there is no hegemonic culture. There are just three, equally strong contenders. That's why whoever ultimately gets to be in charge always has to be a brutal dictator. It's the only way to bring the two cultural groups he/she is not from into line. Sadaam didn't have to commit atrocities against the Sunni. Indeed .... one could argue that Iraq is an exception to the above rule. An outsider may have more success than a local leader. (Because at least all three groups will hate that person equally.)
    Iraq is example of artifact of British Imperialism. Was common practice of Roman Empire and forbears to "divide and rule", pitting local groups against each other. There are numerous examples of British following this example, and where could not be applied by drawing borders on map, ethnic minorities were transported hither, en masse. Protestant dissenters to Catholic Ireland, Tamils to Sri Lanka, East Indians to South Africa and Caribbean, etc.,etc., etc.

    Plus Zionism, of course, wholesale importation of world Jewry to Palestine. A completely artificial culture, fascinating.
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    So on to ancient Greece- was this one culture or several, by reckoning? Different city-states with widely diverging approaches to government, but common language, religion, etc.

    Incessant warfare between Greek and non-Greek neighbors, widespread chattel slavery, and a rich enduring legacy all the same. What say you to this observation?
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  33. #133  
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  34. #134  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Prince's bias is showing and does not intend to insult any dotcomrade personally. All cultures have individual characteristics, so is there reason to say one is "good" or "bad"? Can we be objective on such matters?

    Possibly.
    It would be like questioning whether the engine inside a Honda Civic car is better or worse than the engine inside a Toyota Forerunner pickup truck. Clearly the engines are both well designed in their own ways, each one optimized to carry out a particular role.

    What I could say with high probability is that the valve train from a Honda Civic does not belong in Toyota Forerunners' engine. The parts from one engine are usually not compatible with the parts from another engine. It's not absolutely always the case, but it is more often true than false. Societies are the same. Parts of Chinese, Hispanic, or Middle Eastern culture usually don't mix well with parts of American culture. Members of these cultures, if they are living in the USA, should not try to import their incompatible culture into ours. It won't be a good fit. Also, we shouldn't import ours into theirs.

    Often men and women who's personalities are very different from each other decide to fall in love. They do so because their differences are compatible differences. If their differences were incompatible differences, then it would end in divorce. Society should look at "cultural diversity" in a similar way to that. Diversity isn't automatically good just because it's diverse. We have to analyze it and see if it's compatible first, before just blinding embracing everything that isn't us.




    Prince holds that health and education are good indicators as to degree to which culture or state serves its members, that low infant mortality, high life expectancy, and high literacy are objective indicators of same. Other indicators are incidence of violence and drug abuse, percentage of population incarcerated, energy consumption per capita, percentage unemployment?

    Is there agreement, dissent, or other examples from worthy forum members? Goodwill to all.


    People need to quit valuing life over freedom. Freedom is worthy dying for. A long life is not worth being a slave for.

    A perfect totalitarian state which granted absolutely no freedom whatsoever, perhaps even putting mind control chips in peoples' heads that forced them to think the right thoughts... could still succeed at having high health and education, low infant mortality, long life expectancy and high literacy.... etc. Everything on your list is nice, but none of it guarantees the state won't still be a horrible place to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post


    Iraq is example of artifact of British Imperialism. Was common practice of Roman Empire and forbears to "divide and rule", pitting local groups against each other. There are numerous examples of British following this example, and where could not be applied by drawing borders on map, ethnic minorities were transported hither, en masse. Protestant dissenters to Catholic Ireland, Tamils to Sri Lanka, East Indians to South Africa and Caribbean, etc.,etc., etc.


    Plus Zionism, of course, wholesale importation of world Jewry to Palestine. A completely artificial culture, fascinating.

    The entity they were dividing up, the Ottoman Empire, was in every possible way identical in its Imperialism.
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  36. #136  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    If their differences were incompatible differences, then it would end in divorce.
    Peaceful divorse is still not the worse scenario.Unfortunatly some nations and people are quite
    intrusive and prefer to solve question by force and hold other nations as some kind of slaves.
    I think peaceful divorce is the goal of immigration quotas, but some nationalities, such as Mexico, refuse to abide by the restraining order.

    From what I've seen (specifically Mexican society), I think third world cultures are simply abusive societies. It's why they never improve. They're stuck in their ways the same as how children from abusive homes in our own society often go on to become abusive parents themselves. The children of Mexico go on to repeat their parents' mistakes over and over and over, and see a place like the USA, which is a much less abusive home, as a place they can go to practice their abusiveness on a new victim that's a little more naive and vulnerable. (Which is why I prefer isolationism whenever its practical.)

    It's not unlike the situation of a friend of mine who took in a foster child from exactly such a home a few years ago (with the intention of adopting them). At first the kid was just horrible, constantly acting out and being abusive herself. She couldn't quite understand the concept of "nobody abuses anybody". Seemed to think she either had to be the abuser or the abused. It took a while for that to change. It's not the kind of task you want to take on without being ready for what you'll have to face, and it's difficult sometimes to be properly assertive with someone who's been through so much pain already. Tempting to pity them instead and let them get away with it, but if you do that it never stops.
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    I heard some were that in ancient Arab times, the very wealthy would allow the poor to enter on to their fields, and eat as much as they could. They had this system of honor that is no longer with us today.

    I think we as Americans assume we live in a culture with high ethical systems. But maybe, we just live in a culture that does not have a person like Hitler in power.

    Around 25,000 children will starve to death tomorow, and America could easyily bring them food, but we dont.

    18,000 Americans die each year from not having health insurance, but as a country, we dont care.

    Who would call America a ethical country ?

    And I would sit here and say, "at least we hate genocide" , but I cant even say this. Very recently in Africa there was a nazi-like group comiting genocide, and America did not even try to stop them.
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  39. #139  
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    Why do you think it's America's job to help anyone but other Americans and our Allies. What do you think we could do in Mexico?
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  40. #140  
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    They could try talking to some of the protesters who've made websites, instead of cherry picking for protesters who don't know what's going on (as an attempt to convey the impression that none of them do).

    http://occupywallst.org/
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    Kojax, don't see a link to the rest of the thread. But to your point, any movement needs consolidated talking points and enough organization to point the media in the right direction--either that or the pissed off cop, or random incoherent smuck is going to grab the mike--that's just how it works.
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  42. #142  
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    imo:

    1- Individual liberties must be balanced by the right to live in a community that abides by common values/culture/code of conduct/rules.

    In some parts of the world, culture and values dictate that men and women be in separate sections in buses and use separate elevators and its normal to behead someone as a punishment for marital infidelity. This to me is unacceptable, but its not up to me to change their culture and values and ask for them to changes their sexist ways if I move to such a place(ex:Saudi Arabia). By the same token the reverse is true, people whose value clash with the values of the culture in my community should adapt to the community they move to, they should not say I dont want Men to be in the same elevator as me(ex:women).

    If someone wants the individual liberty to juggle with grenades while walking down the sidewalk, he should be allowed to do so in the community in which people see this as acceptable, but if I live in a community where people do not want to walk around with other people juggling with grenades I should have the liberty to do so.

    Each community has a culutre and values, and is able to integrate people with compatible culture and values, but there are occasions where values are NOT compatible, in this case the residents in an area should have their values respected and immigrants should either integrate/assimilate or choose another community whose values are compatible with theirs.

    2- In addition, there has to be a measure of cultural evolution as opposed to cultural marginalization by influx. This means that the influx of new individuals from compatible but different culture needs to be sufficiently low to both facilitate integration AND prevent marginalization of the existing culture (by population transfers) and allow a gradual evolution of the local culture.


    3- People should have the freedom to move from one community, to another community (presumably which is a better match for their values/preferences) and adapt to this new communities value/code if need be.

    4- A community should have the ability to exile(or prevent entry of) an individual that does not fit and causes friction, but should not have the right to prevent someone from getting out to move to a community that is a better match.
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  43. #143  
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    1- Individual liberties must be balanced by the right to live in a community that abides by common values/culture/code of conduct/rules.
    What balance? They both seem on the same side of the scale.
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  44. #144  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    They could try talking to some of the protesters who've made websites, instead of cherry picking for protesters who don't know what's going on (as an attempt to convey the impression that none of them do).

    Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Kojax, don't see a link to the rest of the thread. But to your point, any movement needs consolidated talking points and enough organization to point the media in the right direction--either that or the pissed off cop, or random incoherent smuck is going to grab the mike--that's just how it works.
    Sorry. That was a mispost on my part. I meant it for another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post

    4- A community should have the ability to exile(or prevent entry of) an individual that does not fit and causes friction, but should not have the right to prevent someone from getting out to move to a community that is a better match.
    I half agree with this one, but only half. I think failed states like Mexico should be required to take action to contain the exodus of economic refugees. Allowing them to create refugees but not be required to bear 100% of the weight on their own shoulders is power without responsibility. A bad mix. It's not the USA's job to fix their mistakes.

    Either

    A: - They ought to have the right to sovereignty, including the right to do stupid things that result in the marginalization and economic desperation of their citizens. But - Also to have the obligation to contain the misery within their borders so nobody else need be affected by it.

    or

    B: - They oughtn't have the right to sovereignty at all.
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    The best culture is the modern western culture of USA. In my opinion, cultures that are impoverished, fundamentalist [such as the nazis], and/or non-western are "bad" because they encourage and tolerate 'pro-girl sexism' to the point where innocent pre-pubescent boys are heinously-mistreated by the macho men of evil society. I've discussed more about it in this thread: Civil disobedience and the age of consent

    For example, in Russia, the pedophile leader Putin molested a little boy by kissing the boy's stomach but no one cared. Just imagine the public outrage that would explode, if Putin did the same to a girl. If Putin kissed a little girl instead of boy, then he'd be burnt alive by a lynch mob.

    Also, Sai Baba is a pedophile priest in India who rapes boy-children but again no one cares. If Sai Baba abused girls instead of boys, he would likely die a horrible death in the hands of an angry lynch mob.

    Sorry for my persistance on this topic of 'pro-girl sexism' but since this thread is about "bad cultures", I'm simply giving my input as to what I define as bad or good.

    Boys who live in the upper-class modern western culture of USA are blessed because they are safer from the horrors of 'pro-girl sexism' that terrorizes cultures that are destitute, non-western, and/or fanatical [such as that of radical Islam].

    Just watch Slumdog Millionaire and you'll see the horrors boy-children face in the backward nation of India. I'm not racist, just honest. BTW, my ancestors are from India. India -- like most non-western, patriarchal, developing nations -- is polluted with intense 'pro-girl sexism'.

    As a hater of 'pro-girl sexism', I prefer matriarchal cultures over patriarchal ones. In matriarchal societies, boys are allowed to express distress and defend themselves against girl-bullies. In patriarchal societies, the macho men brutalize boys while pampering girls.

    The modern western society of USA is matriarchal while other cultures are mostly patriarchal. God bless the feminist movement which has made modern USA what it is.
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    Interesting observation. And it seems that in the case of at least some of the cultures you list, this preference toward guarding the girls inverts at adulthood. Eastern European culture, at least as expressed in Ukraine, is one of the worst for mistreatment of adult women. It's the capital of forced prostitution trafficking. On the other hand, Americans appear to treat adult women comparatively better, but sexual abuse is statistically more common against girls.

    Who are the Victims? | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network

    7% of girls in grades 5-8 and 12% of girls in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused.4
    • 3% of boys grades 5-8 and 5% of boys in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused.
    In 1995, local child protection service agencies identified 126,000 children who were victims of either substantiated or indicated sexual abuse.5
    • Of these, 75% were girls.
    • Nearly 30% of child victims were between the age of 4 and 7.
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  47. #147  
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    The US, particularly in the bible belt, has a pretty backwards ways of thinking about sex and are considerably behinds many Northern European nations.
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  48. #148  
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    Eastern European culture, at least as expressed in Ukraine, is one of the worst for mistreatment of adult women. It's the capital of forced prostitution trafficking.
    With exception of certain amount mostly very poor and vilage young women who get in tenats of forces prostitution
    Ukrainian women are quite feministic and not largely oppressed.In Ukraine woman could easily become even politician and
    get to the higher ranks of power.Examples of such women are Yulia Timoshenko and Natalia Vitrenko.There was never at least in last 150 years traditon in Ukraine to make woman somehow unequal to men.Currently many woman in Ukraine are
    very feministic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Interesting observation. And it seems that in the case of at least some of the cultures you list, this preference toward guarding the girls inverts at adulthood. Eastern European culture, at least as expressed in Ukraine, is one of the worst for mistreatment of adult women. It's the capital of forced prostitution trafficking. On the other hand, Americans appear to treat adult women comparatively better, but sexual abuse is statistically more common against girls.

    Who are the Victims? | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network

    7% of girls in grades 5-8 and 12% of girls in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused.4
    • 3% of boys grades 5-8 and 5% of boys in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused.

    In 1995, local child protection service agencies identified 126,000 children who were victims of either substantiated or indicated sexual abuse.5
    • Of these, 75% were girls.
    • Nearly 30% of child victims were between the age of 4 and 7.
    Statistics only show what is reported. In much of the world -- especially in what I would call "bad cultures" -- boys are more likely to be sexually-assaulted [by men] than girls are. However, a boy is far less likely to report being raped/molested [than a girl] because...

    ... girl victims of pedophilia are given more sympathy than boys -- assuming the perpetrators are male. Girls who are molested by men enjoy a lot of sympathy from the male members of the public. Boys who are molested by men, are instead, seen as "girly", "effeminate", or "sissy". These boys are scrutinized for not being able to fight off their assailants. Society thinks of these boys as having lost their manhood.

    Also, in the "bad" culture of Pakistan [no offense], boys who are raped can be charged with "sodomy" and jailed for it. That's right, the victim goes to jail, while the perpetrator is actually seen as high-standing or elite. In this backward fundamentalist nation, the sexual abuse of boys is encouraged as a matter of pride...

    ...and in Pakistani prisons, these boys are further sexually-assaulted by older male inmates.
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  50. #150  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    With exception of certain amount mostly very poor and vilage young women who get in tenats of forces prostitution
    Ukrainian women are quite feministic and not largely oppressed.
    That explains why
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    It's the capital of forced prostitution trafficking.
    In many countries various forms of prostitution are coerced by an economy geared to husband-providers, though the culture discourages open prostitution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I'm talking about all immigrants. As already discussed in this thread, folks immigrate to the US or Europe for many reasons. It's usually worse in some way where they are coming from than they think it is in their new home or they wouldn't be immigrating.
    For the first time in history, many Americans are wanted to immigrate out of the U.S.
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