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Thread: US kids kicked out of school for wearing Red White and Blue

  1. #1 US kids kicked out of school for wearing Red White and Blue 
    Forum Freshman Goddard's Avatar
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    I was surfing the internet and found this insane story. I was curious what other Americans thought.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010/...inglepage=true


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    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    I think the incident had little to do with the dyes in their fabrics and everything to do with the young men's motivations for wearing those particular fabrics on that particular day. Their intent was hardly patriotic. Their intent was to rake muck.



    http://www.ktvu.com/news/23470391/detail.html
    Among the demonstrators was sophomore Justina Piedra.

    “We could have ignored it, but the fact that they did it to us last year -- see that is disrespect toward us,” she said of the students. “And they want to do it again and plan it out, they plan it out. They think it’s funny. It hurts us. We are just as equal as they are.”

    Fellow student Lizbeth Ruiz also said she felt disrespected.

    <...>

    Kathleen Sullivan, a Morgan Hill Unified School District board trustee, said Live Oak also experienced problems on Cinco de Mayo last year.

    She said some students had complained to the principal and vice principal that they had felt intimidated by students waving American flags.

    In response to those complaints, school authorities had asked students not to provoke other students by wearing or waving flags this year, Sullivan said.

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...-92945969.html
    The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.

    <...>

    They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense."

    "I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."

    But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

    "I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

    As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.'

    More directly to your question in the OP... I think too many americans are blinded with hate... too many americans are buying into the vitriolic jingoistic xenophobia and that is fed to them by close minded people with a serious disconnect with reality. I think it's the same mindset that spread across Germany in the late 1930s, and I think that we need to remember our history or be doomed to repeat it.

    America is about being a mixing pot. America is about opportunity, and equality. To intentionally reinforce the us/them mentality, and to do so with nefarious intention two years in a row, shows just how immature and misguided a vast majority of people in our country are right now... how misguided are so many of our youth... and how far away from our ideals we've drifted.

    Instead of recognizing and accepting the global nature of our human community, many segments these days are more forcefully embracing small local tribal mindsets. It's disheartening, really.


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    That may be true, but the people that are allowed to celebrate that holiday do it because of America. America is a country of all races. Plenty of Mexican Americans have fought to protect this country and are proud of their heritage I am sure, but would never disrespect the American flag.

    I believe what the administration did was childish. They simply should of punished violence. That is what is wrong. People celebrating their cultures holiday, or kids having pride in a country they live in isn't bad.

    The administration really dropped the ball on this one. They could of taught a really valuable lesson on tolerance and diversity.

    Thanks for your comments keep them coming.
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    The administration took action due to the students intentional attempts at incitement, and that action by the administration was wholly appropriate. To assume the action taken by the administration was a result of the dyes in the fabrics of the students and to simultaneously assert that the students wore those clothes due merely to a desire to show their nationalistic pride shows how profoundly some people fail to understand the reality around them.
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    The school administrators who called the American flag "incendiary" and threatened students who displayed it should have their citizenships revoked and deported to Mexico. I'm sure we can swap them for Mexicans who want to be Americans. We are involved in two wars and are suffering from a great economic crisis, and we don't need government employees in America pulling these seditious, boneheaded stunts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    The school administrators who called the American flag "incendiary" and threatened students who displayed it should have their citizenships revoked and deported to Mexico. I'm sure we can swap them for Mexicans who want to be Americans. We are involved in two wars and are suffering from a great economic crisis, and we don't need government employees in America pulling these seditious, boneheaded stunts.
    Lucky the rest of America folks like you don't make those sorts of decisions. Lest we become a nation of tyranny and oppression. One doesn't "deport" people to countries they aren't citizens of. Nor does the 14th amendment permit the revocation of citizenship to those who aren't making an effort to relinquish it.

    The decision to curb the hate-speech of the ignorant was right. Indeed, I'd go so far as to assert that those who were using the national colors that way were acting quite un-American and such counter-patriotism sickens and worries me. Particularly when it exists in the minds of the young, for it reveals its origin in their parents. People who oppress diversity in that manner aren't patriots, they're terrorists -they seek to terrorize and oppress minorities out of inbred hatred and fear.

    School administrators are well within their rights, and as a taxpayer I demand of them, to restrict and enforce the clothing of their schools -especially when it threatens the safety and/or well-being of other members of the academic milieu.

    Supporting such hate-speech is, at worst, hate-speech itself or, at best, ignorant and uninformed.
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    More directly to your question in the OP... I think too many americans are blinded with hate... too many americans are buying into the vitriolic jingoistic xenophobia and that is fed to them by close minded people with a serious disconnect with reality. I think it's the same mindset that spread across Germany in the late 1930s, and I think that we need to remember our history or be doomed to repeat it.
    inow; I've noted you have a problem in capitalizing Americans, yet no trouble with Germany or actually any other Country. Do you want the meaning of this under graphology?

    You keep referring to America and American's, in general terms following the practice of Hitler and the German Government of the 1930's inferring anything anti-American today is equal to the Jewish of the times in Germany, when in fact it was a relatively minor segment of the people, that rose up and IMPOSED their beliefs on the majority.

    America is about being a mixing pot.
    NO, America is about being a MELDING POT "Lose its distinct outline or shape; blend gradually", and those over the decades that came to this Nation, did exactly that, intentionally for many reason, leaving the traditions and cultures of their homelands behind. I might add, this was particularly true, for those that fought for these freedoms, fighting and forming what became the USA.

    America is about opportunity, and equality.
    YES and under the laws, that have evolved. Equality however is not guaranteed, nor can it be granted, opportunity TODAY is....

    shows just how immature and misguided a vast majority of people in our country are right now... how misguided are so many of our youth...and how far away from our ideals we've drifted.
    To properly address this would take a couple book length post, but to summarize; Students are being taught everything but the History of the Country, it's meaning, the motivation and hopes for future generations, from the perspectives of those that designed the system or the traditions and cultures. In not teaching what was, you can't get the expected results.

    Instead of recognizing and accepting the global nature of our human community, many segments these days are more forcefully embracing small local tribal mindsets. It's disheartening, really.
    If you want to discuss "global nature of our human community" start a thread on the subject. You in fact would be stoned or put to death, in any number of places (as would I) for your own belief's. In Mexico, YOU ARE ASKED for papers and if not shown thrown in jail or instantly deported.

    People who oppress diversity in that manner aren't patriots, they're terrorists -they seek to terrorize and oppress minorities out of inbred hatred and fear.
    SW; Oh my; Dissent from some are now terrorist, a jury who convicts a person are terrorist or the judge if you happen to disagree with the outcome. People in jail are all victims of terrorist or those that try to impose personal feelings on the majority are being repressed by terrorist???

    Supporting such hate-speech is, at worst, hate-speech itself or, at best, ignorant and uninformed.
    Wearing a T-Shirt or even the colors R-W-B IS HATE SPEECH? What's next saying a prayer, or objecting to ANY Government policy. Joining the service or serving in Government itself, or anything seemingly patriotic, are they NOW displaying HATE and if so, against who??? The freedom to speak is granted everyone (limitations also), not just those that agree or disagree on any issue. Political Correctness is fine, but when it gets carried away to individual opinion or when what is by laws, the idea CAN become meaningless.


    jrmonroe; There are millions of Latino's in the US or immigrants from around the world, now citizens of the US, proudly displaying the American Flag in their front yard and voicing their gratitude for their opportunity to be CALLED American. That one administrator was wrong and his/her supervisor, has already renounced the decision. We currently have some liberal agenda driven media, that will grasp any controversial issue, in hopes of drawing attention from a defined minority that will continue to spread a relatively non-issue story. By the way, Cinco de Mayo is not 'Independence Day' for Mexico, it's a work day. Like our D-Day, it's simply a symbolic recognition to a individual battle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    inow; I've noted you have a problem in capitalizing Americans, yet no trouble with Germany or actually any other Country.
    And yet I also capitalize United States. Fancy that.

    Within the past year, you've suggested I am some China sympathizer with communist tendencies merely for battling back bigoted speech based on misconceptions of billions of people. Now, here you are suggesting I'm somehow anti-american for failure to capitalize a term? Let me ask you, Mr. McCarthy... Do you want me to do a grammar and spelling check on your posts, and offer some nonsensical insights on what that all means in context of your sociopolitical beliefs? I should think not. This pseudo-analysis you've put forth is ridiculous on its face.

    I am merely trying to illuminate dangerous parallels, and to prevent our country from making the same mistakes other countries have made in the past. The level of unfocused rage, generalized hate, and deep seated jingoism we're seeing right now never leads to good things, and we need to combat it.

    How about you focus on that instead of acting like a 9th grade english teacher? (OMG! He didn't capitalize the word english... he's a pinko commie!!1!12!!)


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    If you want to discuss "global nature of our human community" start a thread on the subject. You in fact would be stoned or put to death, in any number of places (as would I) for your own belief's.
    It's a bit ironic. You've actually reinforced my intended point by stating this.


    Ask yourself about the consistency of your appeals, Jackson. Would you put forth equal arguments had immigrant children been asked to remove their Mexican flag shirts on the 4th of July, or would you be asking why they felt the need to be inflammatory and would you potentially question the appropriateness of their actions?

    I'll give you a hint... having read your posts for years. You would NOT put forth such an argument. You'd recognize without fail that their actions were intended to incite, and you would agree that a school administration recognizing this and taking action in an attempt to prevent violence was appropriate. You would see that the actions of those students who planned to wear those shirts on that day were themselves directly rooted in a desire to inflame tensions and rake muck.
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    Within the past year, you've suggested I am some China sympathizer with communist tendencies merely for battling back bigoted speech based on misconceptions of billions of people.
    inow; I have no idea where your getting this, especially over the past year. Are you mixing another poster and myself. I do believe in advocating for rights you believe in, those you don't get lost.

    Now, here you are suggesting I'm somehow anti-american for failure to capitalize a term?
    Not being a personal fan of profiling personality, via handwriting or usage of words (this case), knowing every spell check I've used would correct, there would be some question to your intentions. Beyond this, I don't know you personally or well enough to judge your patriotism.

    I am merely trying to illuminate dangerous parallels, and to prevent our country from making the same mistakes other countries have made in the past.
    The people of Arizona or the Government of Arizona (think your reference) or those few students (one from Mexican decent) were simply showing their own pride in being American. You insinuation that they were trying to PREVENT others from displaying a pride for their heritage is not warranted and this would include SW or the person who made the questioned accusation in the first place. Your parallel then, non existent.

    The level of unfocused rage, generalized hate, and deep seated jingoism we're seeing right now never leads to good things, and we need to combat it.
    inow, this is the most minor of minor incidents that you have ever argued. There are tens of thousands of issues that dwarf this minor incident. You have promoted an upcoming 'Atheist' demonstration in Austin, think on the 16th, which is a far greater expression of 'Free Speech' than wearing some t-shirt. If I'm recalling the date correctly, does this demonstration, being held on Sunday have a direct meaning?

    It's a bit ironic. You've actually reinforced my intended point by stating this.
    The point is and was, we all have the same rights disregarding the angles of the message being presented. As an agnostic myself, 35 years ago, when I did live in Austin I'd have lead a counter protest to your protest and we would both be with in the law, assuming we both had permits and held to other law. Do you understand the connection to the thread topic?

    Ask yourself about the consistency of your appeals, Jackson. Would you put forth equal arguments had immigrant children been asked to remove their Mexican flag shirts on the 4th of July, or would you be asking why they felt the need to be inflammatory and would you potentially question the appropriateness of their actions?

    I'll give you a hint... having read your posts for years. You would NOT put forth such an argument.
    You would be wrong. Actually, there is a large segment of people, in the US, most of which are multi generational, that still oppose our Independence from England. Then there are probably tens of thousand of Latino's, with or with out ancestry going back to when the WEST WAS a Spanish Territory that feel it should still be part of Mexico, not to mention Native American's and their grievances. They all have the right to there opinions and should be allowed to ware whatever is legal on one day, on any other day.

    You would see that the actions of those students who planned to wear those shirts on that day were themselves directly rooted in a desire to inflame tensions and rake muck.
    This is so childish; Even if their goal was to achieve some kind of attention, to classify those actions as inflammatory or provoking, is a stretch. To equate my feelings, if this non-sense called being politically correct continues, in any parade for any purpose, people, their cars, floats or what ever would be called provocative for a thousand reasons; Red Cars mean this, Blue Cars mean that, or the clothing or maybe that GERMAN Sheppard Dog or that ARABIAN Horse.
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    Your understanding (and consequent presentation) of many of my points is deeply flawed. Please note also I have promoted no demonstrations, atheist or otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    You would see that the actions of those students who planned to wear those shirts on that day were themselves directly rooted in a desire to inflame tensions and rake muck.
    This is so childish; Even if their goal was to achieve some kind of attention, to classify those actions as inflammatory or provoking, is a stretch. To equate my feelings, if this non-sense called being politically correct continues, in any parade for any purpose, people, their cars, floats or what ever would be called provocative for a thousand reasons; Red Cars mean this, Blue Cars mean that, or the clothing or maybe that GERMAN Sheppard Dog or that ARABIAN Horse.
    it is childish to infer that if i were to go to a jewish temple wearing a swastika, i would be attempting to insult the jewish people there? and it's childish to assume that i was attempting to do so?

    one could argue that i were merely showing that i believe in the indian religions that use it today. however it is no stretch to accuse someone who does this of being an anti-semetic person or a nazi.

    although it's true that being politically correct is a nuisance, that would be the equivelant in this case of calling someone a jew rather than calling them jewish, or some other politically correct term.

    again it all boils down to the person's intentions. if they had shown that they were merely expressing patriotism, and if they normally wore such colors i have confidence there would not have been a problem. but in this case i believe that there was evidence of premeditation that they would wave the flags on cinco de mayo in particular. this clearly shows that there was something in particular about cinco de mayo that made them want to wave american flags. it's not "a stretch" as you say to conclude that what is special about cinco de mayo is that many mexican americans use it as a day to celebrate thier heritage.
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    inow; Please don't put me in this position. You posted on another forum, in Reference to the 'radical textbook changes made by the Texas State Board of Education' (an issue you had been adamantly been arguing against), a rally and sited an atheist upcoming events web site. In fairness, you made NO COMMENTS with the post, or wrote the entire thing (not in quotes), even listing three names to contact. Since I had to double check, it is for Sunday May 16th...


    again it all boils down to the person's intentions. if they had shown that they were merely expressing patriotism, and if they normally wore such colors i have confidence there would not have been a problem. but in this case i believe that there was evidence of premeditation that they would wave the flags on cinco de mayo in particular. this clearly shows that there was something in particular about cinco de mayo that made them want to wave american flags. it's not "a stretch" as you say to conclude that what is special about cinco de mayo is that many mexican americans use it as a day to celebrate thier heritage.
    saul; Since the School Board Administrator has already cleared those kids of wrong doing, what ever we discuss is meaningless. But hypothetically, which came first, the kids that wished to celebrate their heritage in a US public school or the kids that wanted to thwart that public demonstration? Is somehow one demonstration (if either was intended) more relevant than the other.

    Yes, some how I know about American's with Mexican Heritage celebrating 'Cinco de mayo' having lived and doing business in the Latino Culture a good share of my life and coincidently having three children, I'd guess you would call Mexicans. In fact have been at many celebrations, roasted pig and all....
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    Quote Originally Posted by saul

    it is childish to infer that if i were to go to a jewish temple wearing a swastika, i would be attempting to insult the jewish people there? and it's childish to assume that i was attempting to do so?
    Did you just compare the American flag to a swastika?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    inow; Please don't put me in this position. You posted on another forum, in Reference to the 'radical textbook changes made by the Texas State Board of Education' (an issue you had been adamantly been arguing against), a rally and sited an atheist upcoming events web site. In fairness, you made NO COMMENTS with the post, or wrote the entire thing (not in quotes), even listing three names to contact. Since I had to double check, it is for Sunday May 16th...
    Jackson - Please note that I have not put you into any position. You made an assertion, and I challenged it's truth value with a simple clarification. If you have deeper feelings on this, then that is your problem, not mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    inow, this is the most minor of minor incidents that you have ever argued. There are tens of thousands of issues that dwarf this minor incident. You have promoted an upcoming 'Atheist' demonstration in Austin, think on the 16th, which is a far greater expression of 'Free Speech' than wearing some t-shirt.

    <...>

    As an agnostic myself, 35 years ago, when I did live in Austin I'd have lead a counter protest to your protest and we would both be with in the law, assuming we both had permits and held to other law.
    For clarification to our readers... I posted a link and a quote noting that people in Austin will be gathering around the capitol building due to their concerns on recent changes by the Texas Board of Education, nothing more. My sharing of that link was in context of a much broader discussion. I promoted nothing, nor did I lead any protests, and Jackson's representation of the situation above was almost as wanting and inaccurate as his representation of what's happening with these boys who wore their flag shirts to piss people off.








    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by saul

    it is childish to infer that if i were to go to a jewish temple wearing a swastika, i would be attempting to insult the jewish people there? and it's childish to assume that i was attempting to do so?
    Did you just compare the American flag to a swastika?
    No, and I can hardly imagine how one would read such a thing into his comments. He compared the motivation of these young men wearing their flag shirts to rake muck on this specific day to the motivation of a young man wearing an indian religious symbol into a synagogue. He was calling attention to the fact that this event was about much more than a few boys expressing their personal nationalistic pride.

    These young men are pretending they had no idea they'd upset people and stir up trouble... even though they took similar actions last year on this same day... even though their decision to do so was organized and premeditated... and they are pretending that they didn't know such an action would incite those around them... They are, quite frankly, lying.

    Their intent is what is at issue here, not the dyes in their fabrics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by saul

    it is childish to infer that if i were to go to a jewish temple wearing a swastika, i would be attempting to insult the jewish people there? and it's childish to assume that i was attempting to do so?
    Did you just compare the American flag to a swastika?
    No, and I can hardly imagine how one would read such a thing into his comments. He compared the motivation of these young men wearing their flag shirts to rake muck on this specific day to the motivation of a young man wearing an indian religious symbol into a synagogue. He was calling attention to the fact that this event was about much more than a few boys expressing their personal nationalistic pride.

    These young men are pretending they had no idea they'd upset people and stir up trouble... even though they took similar actions last year on this same day... even though their decision to do so was organized and premeditated... and they are pretending that they didn't know such an action would incite those around them... They are, quite frankly, lying.

    Their intent is what is at issue here, not the dyes in their fabrics.
    Somehow, I think your opinion might be different if it was some kind of liberal demonstration.

    For your and Saul's benefit there is a big difference between wearing the American flag in the presence of Mexicans, and wearing a swastika in the presence of Jews. In the former case there is no reason for anyone to get upset. In the latter case, there is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Somehow, I think your opinion might be different if it was some kind of liberal demonstration.
    You're welcome to think that all you want.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    For your and Saul's benefit there is a big difference between wearing the American flag in the presence of Mexicans, and wearing a swastika in the presence of Jews. In the former case there is no reason for anyone to get upset. In the latter case, there is.
    That's your opinion. There are others who might disagree. Again, this has little to do with the dye in the fabrics, and everything to do with incitement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    That's your opinion. There are others who might disagree. Again, this has little to do with the dye in the fabrics, and everything to do with incitement.
    I understand completely. Expression of opinions you disagree with = incitement.
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    Let’s look at why the school administrator said what he did.

    The students of Mexican heritage felt offended by the display of the American flag in their presence in America on “their day”, May 5th. They seem to think that no other nationality can be represented on “their day” in their presence anywhere in the world. They seem to think they can come to America and have the right to hijack May 5th. It’s like St Patrick’s Day combined with lots of gangland pride and threats of violence.

    The Cinco de Mayo holiday held on May 5 commemorates the Mexican army’s unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862. It is not widely celebrated in Mexico, and it is not Mexico’s Independence Day, which is the most important national patriotic holiday in Mexico. However, it is observed throughout the United States and elsewhere as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.

    Cinco de Mayo has nothing to do with America, and it’s not as though these students in California displayed images of the French flag, which could have been incendiary. Instead, the students displayed the American flag, which has nothing to do with France or Mexico or the meaning of Cinco de Mayo.

    It’s like Americans abroad making a big stink about Patriot’s Day, which isn’t widely celebrated in the US. We could go down to Mexico and celebrate it there, and we could (supposedly) boil to the brink of violence or rioting if even one Mexican dares, in our presence, to display the Mexican flag or other patriotic Mexican symbol on Patriot’s Day in Mexico because it’s (supposedly) an insult to our American heritage and pride.

    No one enjoys the privilege of denying Americans the right to display the American flag in America — not even other Americans can do that! Yet, it seems that some Mexicans and their descendants think they “own” May 5th everywhere they go ... and that, once a year — every year — forever, no one in their presence can be anything but Mexican on May 5th.

    Their mentality is absolutely and irrevocably wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    That's your opinion. There are others who might disagree. Again, this has little to do with the dye in the fabrics, and everything to do with incitement.
    I understand completely. Expression of opinions you disagree with = incitement.
    Yeah, because that's a fair representation of what I'm saying. I can always count on you for accuracy and precision, Harold.
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    So, I guess Roger Ebert got into a bit of a kerfuffle for making this comment about the boys who wore these shirts:

    Kids who wear American Flag t-shirts on 5 May should have to share a lunchroom table with those who wear a hammer and sickle on 4 July.

    After getting much retarded right-wing poo flung in his direction by numerous sources vastly disconnected from reality as a result of that comment, he has responded thusly:



    http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...NION/100509974
    Let's begin with a fact few Americans know: Celebrating Cinco de Mayo is an American custom. The first such celebration was held in California in 1863, and they have continued without interruption. In Mexico itself it is not observed, except in the state of Puebla--the site of Mexico's underdog victory over the French on May 5, 1862.

    Cinco de Mayo's purpose is to celebrate Mexican-American culture in the United States. We are a nation of immigrants, and have many such observances, for example St. Patrick's Day parades, which began in Boston in 1737 and not in Ireland until 1931. Or Pulaski Day, officially established in Illinois in 1977, and not observed in Poland. The first Chinese New Year's parade was held in San Francisco in the 1860s, and such parades began only later in China. In Chicago this August we will have the 81st annual Bud Billiken Parade, one of the largest parades in America, celebrating the African-American heritage.

    I invite you to perform four easy thought experiments:

    1. You and four friends are in Boston and attend the St. Patrick's Day parade wearing matching Union Jack t-shirts, which of course you have every right to do.

    2. You and your pals are in Chicago on Pulaski Day, and wear a t-shirt with a photograph of Joseph Stalin, which is your right.

    3. In San Francisco's Chinatown for the parade, your crowd wears t-shirts saying "My granddad was at the Rape of Nanking and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

    4. In Chicago for the Bud Billiken Parade, you and your crowd, back in shape after three hospitalizations, turn up with matching t-shirts sporting the Confederate flag.

    The question is obviously not whether Americans, or anyone else, has the right to wear our flag on their t-shirts. But empathetic people realize much depends on context. If, on Cinco de Mayo, you turn up at your school with a large Mexican-American student population wearing such shirts, are you (1) joining in the spirit of the holiday, or (2) looking for trouble?

    I suggest you intend to insult your fellow students. Not because they do not respect THEIR flag, but because you do not respect their heritage. That there are five of you in matching shirts demonstrates you want to be deliberately provocative. <more at the link>

    I tend to agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker

    The decision to curb the hate-speech of the ignorant was right. Indeed, I'd go so far as to assert that those who were using the national colors that way were acting quite un-American and such counter-patriotism sickens and worries me. Particularly when it exists in the minds of the young, for it reveals its origin in their parents. People who oppress diversity in that manner aren't patriots, they're terrorists -they seek to terrorize and oppress minorities out of inbred hatred and fear.

    School administrators are well within their rights, and as a taxpayer I demand of them, to restrict and enforce the clothing of their schools -especially when it threatens the safety and/or well-being of other members of the academic milieu.

    Supporting such hate-speech is, at worst, hate-speech itself or, at best, ignorant and uninformed.
    The whole point in having a freedom of speech is that society is supposed be smart enough to know the difference between saying and doing. Terrorist should absolutely never be said of someone who says and does not, only of those who do terror.

    If you blur the distinction between words and deeds, you will inevitably begin blurring the distinction between thoughts and words. At the point where the government can start dictating exactly what kind of person you have to be (one with empathy, love, tolerance) it's safe to say we will have lost all semblance of a "free society".


    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    inow; I've noted you have a problem in capitalizing Americans, yet no trouble with Germany or actually any other Country.
    And yet I also capitalize United States. Fancy that.

    Within the past year, you've suggested I am some China sympathizer with communist tendencies merely for battling back bigoted speech based on misconceptions of billions of people. Now, here you are suggesting I'm somehow anti-american for failure to capitalize a term? Let me ask you, Mr. McCarthy... Do you want me to do a grammar and spelling check on your posts, and offer some nonsensical insights on what that all means in context of your sociopolitical beliefs? I should think not. This pseudo-analysis you've put forth is ridiculous on its face.
    Battle it if you want, but don't try to legislate it.

    I am merely trying to illuminate dangerous parallels, and to prevent our country from making the same mistakes other countries have made in the past. The level of unfocused rage, generalized hate, and deep seated jingoism we're seeing right now never leads to good things, and we need to combat it.
    The danger is allowing any feeling about race or ethnicity, positive or negative, to be legislated. That's where the Nazis went wrong.

    If they wanted to hate Jews... then fine, but they should have left the government out of it.
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    In regards to "hate speech" or just hate in general, I think it's hateful to disdain all patriotism except Mexican patriotism on May 5th.

    The five supposedly errant students did not wear French flags on May 5th, and so did not insult Cinco de Mayo.

    Roger Ebert's four thought experiments are non sequiturs.

    And, as Ebert himself admits, "Cinco de Mayo's purpose is to celebrate Mexican-American culture in the United States."

    So, what part of "Mexican-American" does Ebert himself not understand? ... obviously the "American" part of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    In regards to "hate speech" or just hate in general, I think it's hateful to disdain all patriotism except Mexican patriotism on May 5th.

    The five supposedly errant students did not wear French flags on May 5th, and so did not insult Cinco de Mayo.

    Roger Ebert's four thought experiments are non sequiturs.

    And, as Ebert himself admits, "Cinco de Mayo's purpose is to celebrate Mexican-American culture in the United States."

    So, what part of "Mexican-American" does Ebert himself not understand? ... obviously the "American" part of it.
    The issue here isn't whether or not people have a right to wear whatever they want. We're talking about a public school here, where students are required to attend by law. The students at a school have a right not to be insulted. It is entirely the school's business to prevent conflict and to make the school a comfortable space for all its students.

    This isn't about American patriotism and you know it. The clear implication is that these students meant to convey that the Mexican students were not American or less American than they were for celebrating Cinco de Mayo.

    You can get up on a soap box in a public space and spout whatever vitriolic nonsense you like. However, this kind of expression does not extend to places like schools where students don't have the ability to leave and not be subjugated to speech they disagree with. The school administration did the right thing in this case, students don't have the right to insult other students on school grounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The issue here isn't whether or not people have a right to wear whatever they want. We're talking about a public school here, where students are required to attend by law. The students at a school have a right not to be insulted. It is entirely the school's business to prevent conflict and to make the school a comfortable space for all its students.
    Bull. They didn't make it a comfortable place for the kids with the flag shirts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The students at a school have a right not to be insulted.
    ...by the American flag being displayed in America?? But you're right ... however, these Mexican-American students developed the incorrect mindset in themselves to feel insulted by the American flag being displayed in America on May 5th, a day that they feel they can hijack.

    The clear implication is that these students meant to convey that the Mexican students were not American or less American than they were for celebrating Cinco de Mayo.
    This is false. Do you mean that someone displaying the American flag on St Patty's Day is telling the Irish-Americans that they are not American or are less American for celebrating St Patty's Day?? The same holds true for Italians on Columbus Day??

    Sleepy, please explain to me how the American flag displayed in America disrespects Mexican-Americans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The students at a school have a right not to be insulted.
    ...by the American flag being displayed in America?? But you're right ... however, these Mexican-American students developed the incorrect mindset in themselves to feel insulted by the American flag being displayed in America on May 5th, a day that they feel they can hijack.

    The clear implication is that these students meant to convey that the Mexican students were not American or less American than they were for celebrating Cinco de Mayo.
    This is false. Do you mean that someone displaying the American flag on St Patty's Day is telling the Irish-Americans that they are not American or are less American for celebrating St Patty's Day?? The same holds true for Italians on Columbus Day??

    Sleepy, please explain to me how the American flag displayed in America disrespects Mexican-Americans.
    okay i'm sorry but do you read more than the last post when you post replies? we've already covered that it's not about the fact that it's an american flag. we're talking about the fact that these students displayed the flag with the intent of inciting violence or alienizing the mexican-american students. whether or not the mexican-americans have the right to feel insulted is debatable, but whether the students in question knew this would be the result is not debatable. it is hogwash to plea ignorance on thier behalf, saying that they didn't know what they were doing would cause an "us vs. them" mentality.

    Bull. They didn't make it a comfortable place for the kids with the flag shirts
    you're absolutely 100% completely correct. the school administrators didn't make it a comfortable place for those students. they did so because their right to feel at home does not exceed that of the other students, and because they were the ones infringing on other's rights they were the ones subject to feeling slightly less comfortable in their school.

    @kojax, although i agree that the nazis had a bad idea with making it legal for hitler to toss jews in concentration camps, the exact oppositte of that isn't a perfect solution. the exact opposite of controlling a person's thoughts is to allow them to think whatever they like regardless of consequences. however america is supposed to be a melting pot for various cultures, and mindsets that go against this "in the name of patriotism" are quite unamerican.
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    It would be interesting if these pupils lived in Arizona and spoke English as a second language. Suddenly the motivation for wearing an American flag, and presumably the response, would appear completely different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saul
    we're talking about the fact that these students displayed the flag with the intent of inciting violence or alienizing the mexican-american students.
    Thank you. I was not actually emphasizing the American flag aspect, but the Mexican-Americans' excessive pride. It's obviously a clash of cultures. But there's more.

    Let's talk legal.

    In America, expressions alone are not legal justification for violence. Immigrants and their families need to learn this, or they end up with criminal convictions. Someone could hurl the worst possible insults (yes, even about one's mother) and flip the bird a million times, yet the victim of such insults is not legally justified in responding violently. It's the law. Period.

    Even if we could prove that the boys intended to incite violence, it never would have happened had the Mexican-Americans not had such over-the-top pride (if indeed they had). The Mexican-Americans would be found guilty. They can learn the law the easy way or the hard way. They get to decide.
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    Show me again where you've demonstrated "over the top pride" among the Mexican-American students. I seem to have missed that part of your argument. You're here using it at the foundation of your position, but it appears to be little more than a hollow baseless assertion.
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    By "over-the-top pride", I mean feeling insulted by something that has nothing to do with one's heritage or pride. As soon as someone tells me how the idea of America insults the pride of Mexico and how it relates to May 5th (apparently all the other days of the year are okay), then I will consider changing my position. Cinco de Mayo commemorates Mexico's defeat of French forces on May 5, 1862, which is a source of heritage and pride mostly to people of Mexican heritage living other countries.

    If the boys displayed French flags, then I'd be the first to agree with Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez's description of their actions as "incendiary". What happened was nothing similar to that or, for example, to displaying the Greek flag at school on April 24th, the Armenian's "Genocide Remembrance Day" which I would call much more than just "incendiary".

    Everyone has a right to justifiable feelings of heritage and pride. Mexican-Americans, however, cannot justify feeling insulted by the 202 flags of the world's other sovereign countries, and perhaps the flags of the 50 states of the union and territories and possessions, and maybe all the flags of the American cities, towns and counties.

    The question is: How do Mexican-Americans justify their pride?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    By "over-the-top pride", I mean feeling insulted by something that has nothing to do with one's heritage or pride. As soon as someone tells me how the idea of America insults the pride of Mexico and how it relates to May 5th (apparently all the other days of the year are okay), then I will consider changing my position.
    I believe your understanding of the situation is flawed. The Mexican-American students did not feel insulted due to others showing pride in the american flag. They did not feel insulted by the idea of America. I welcome correction, but here's what I see as having happened:

    1. A group of boys with premeditation planned to wear their flag shirts on this day in order to reinforce an us/them mentality and jingoistically sought to ostracize Mexican-American students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo.

    2. Those same boys, and others, had done something very similar the year before, on that same day one year prior, when they stood outside the school waving american flags and jeering the mexican-american students as they entered the premises.

    3. The mexican-american students were understandably frustrated by these actions, and tensions rose.

    4. The school acted preemptively to deflate those tensions by asking the boys to change their shirts since they were being so intentionally provocative.

    5. Fox news and other right wing gas bags then began to misrepresent the issue by pretending that the boys were sent home for showing pride in their country.

    6. The rest of us reasonably well-educated people get further disheartened about how many retarded people in our country buy into that narrative, and how far from reality their arguments continue to veer.




    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Everyone has a right to justifiable feelings of heritage and pride.
    And not a single person here or elsewhere has even come close to suggesting otherwise.



    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    The question is: How do Mexican-Americans justify their pride?
    No, the question is if you can make a point in this thread which is not based on logical fallacies like the red herring.
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    Hey look, I’m not being a jerk, but how about this (highly fictional) analogy.

    May 13th is the anniversary of the Chinese-Malaysian Incident in Kuala Lampur on May 13, 1969. Being Malaysian, it is our custom to celebrate Malaysian heritage and pride on May 13th every year wherever we are, including electronically. Therefore no one can mention any other country or display its flag on this forum today because, if you do (even if you’re NOT Chinese), it’ll hurt our feelings of heritage and pride. You can be patriotic on any other day, but not our day. It doesn’t matter what YOUR custom is, or what the RULES of the forum are, because we’ve decided to join your forum and impose OUR custom on you, and you can’t disrespect us.

    And, almost guaranteed, someone (probably a kid) would mention another country or display its flag just to prove that they can do it -- that is, that we’re wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow

    1. A group of boys with premeditation planned to wear their flag shirts on this day in order to reinforce an us/them mentality and jingoistically sought to ostracize Mexican-American students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo.
    OMG premeditated shirt wearing. Doesn't that make it a capital offense?
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    inow quotes;
    1. A group of boys with premeditation planned to wear their flag shirts on
    this day in order to reinforce an us/them mentality and linguistically sought to
    ostracize Mexican-American students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo.
    First that GROUP, was five boys (Four sent home) and yes they intended to voice their opinions. The problem with your logic, is the planned and organized so called "Celebration" was on American School Grounds, to my knowledge not an officially recognized holiday, yet had and have the same rights ware clothing displaying pride in their heritage. I assume, people that do NOT ware green on St. Patrick's Day, are NOT somehow anti Irish.

    2. Those same boys, and others, had done something very similar the year before, on that same day one year prior, when they stood outside the school
    waving american flags and jeering the mexican-american students as they entered
    the premises.
    I don't doubt, accidentally or intentionally these same circumstances happened in a good many American Schools this year or over the past half century. What's the point....

    3. The mexican-american students were understandably frustrated by these actions, and tensions rose.
    The American Students with Mexican heritage or the Mexican Nationals were at the point of discipline not frustrated in the least. The Vice Principle (Rodriguez) may have been frustrated, read the original article below or maybe the concurring Principle (Boden), but not students, at that time.

    4. The school acted preemptively to deflate those tensions by asking the boys to change their shirts since they were being so intentionally provocative.
    Intentionally and potentially provocative, have different meanings.

    5. Fox news and other right wing gas bags then began to misrepresent the issue by pretending that the boys were sent home for showing pride in their country.
    THE NEWS STORY(?) was broke by their local Newspaper, The Morgan Hill Times, then probably picked up by AP. Yes Fox News "right wing gas bags" will pick up on anything understood as 'Free Speech' and well they should, but CNN broke it Nationally.**


    6. The rest of us reasonably well-educated people get further disheartened about how many retarded people in our country buy into that narrative, and how far from reality their arguments continue to veer.
    I'm not sure who your calling un-educated or retarded, other than those that disagree with you, but if it's intended toward posters on this forum, I would hope an apology would be in order.

    This article was posted 5/5/2010 and note the quote from one of those revolutionaries "Matt Dariano"....

    Four Live Oak High School students' First Amendment rights were challenged Wednesday morning when they were asked to leave school because they donned American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo. Officials at the school chose not to comment on the situation, but one student said an official called the T-shirts "incendiary."

    "They said we were starting a fight, we were fuel to the fire," said sophomore Matt Dariano.
    http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/...-flag-t-shirts

    **The same paper, today's update 5/13/2010 on School Board Meeting;
    The decision by Principal Nick Boden to send four students home who were wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo to maintain safety at the school and prevent any fights has grabbed the nation's attention since last Wednesday and continued tonight as every major Bay Area TV news station was on-hand including CNN out of a San Francisco bureau......

    Superintendent Wes Smith was asked to fire the Live Oak administrators, but also was thanked by several people for his swift response to the incident. Smith reiterated what the school district has said since May 5: Students are always allowed to wear red, white and blue.

    "The students should not have been asked to remove their patriotic shirts," Smith said, his statement met with applause. He also said he hopes the community may "uncover greatness from controversy."
    http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/...k-t-shirt-flap
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    By "over-the-top pride", I mean feeling insulted by something that has nothing to do with one's heritage or pride. As soon as someone tells me how the idea of America insults the pride of Mexico and how it relates to May 5th (apparently all the other days of the year are okay), then I will consider changing my position. Cinco de Mayo commemorates Mexico's defeat of French forces on May 5, 1862, which is a source of heritage and pride mostly to people of Mexican heritage living other countries.

    If the boys displayed French flags, then I'd be the first to agree with Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez's description of their actions as "incendiary". What happened was nothing similar to that or, for example, to displaying the Greek flag at school on April 24th, the Armenian's "Genocide Remembrance Day" which I would call much more than just "incendiary".

    Everyone has a right to justifiable feelings of heritage and pride. Mexican-Americans, however, cannot justify feeling insulted by the 202 flags of the world's other sovereign countries, and perhaps the flags of the 50 states of the union and territories and possessions, and maybe all the flags of the American cities, towns and counties.

    The question is: How do Mexican-Americans justify their pride?
    You are just being obtuse now. It is not the flag that is incendiary to the Mexican-American students, it is the use of the American flag in a way that suggests they're un-American or less American. The fact that these students feel it is necessary to celebrate the American flag on this cultural holiday illustrates their contempt for Cinco de Mayo and the students that celebrate it. I'm having difficulty grasping how people can't understand this is deliberately inflammatory.
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    Sleepy, I'm being calm and sincere. Read my post from 1:58PM. It's the Mexican-Americans who made a symbol inflammatory in their own minds. And, yes, yes, yes, the boys waved it in front of them to antagonize them. There was also taunts and jeers from both sides even though the boys started it. And although not reported here, there were Mexican flags taken from Mexican-American students as well. Both sides are wrong.

    BTW, According to my highly fictional analogy, May 13th is my day, I said so at 1:58PM, and there you go mentioning Mexicans and Americans, so should I feel hurt that you have insulted my fictional heritage and pride? Do you get it now? I cannot barge into this public forum and impose my customs on you. In the same way, Mexicans cannot immigrate to America and impose their customs on others in a public setting, especially a setting (ie, a school) in which society and the government commands its citizens to attend.

    It's a whole different story if it was someone's house or a private function, but we're talking about obligatory attendance under penalty of law.

    I love diversity. I've mingled with more people than most Americans. I've eaten green bagels on St Patty's Day, and I've eaten traditional southern meals on Martin Luther King Day. I've eaten Italian foods at Italian functions, and I've eaten drank beers and eaten wursts at Oktoberfests. I've eaten Hindi food at a Sikh holiday festival, and I've eaten Middle Eastern food after Ramadan.

    However, one group of citizens cannot force their customs on people legally obliged to attend a public function. It's the law.

    And, until the United States or California or Santa Clara country or the City of Morgan Hill passes a law declaring it illegal to display any patriotic symbol in public other than the Mexican flag on May 5th, we're all just gonna hafta live with the law as it stands ... and this includes Mexican-Americans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saul

    @kojax, although i agree that the nazis had a bad idea with making it legal for hitler to toss jews in concentration camps, the exact oppositte of that isn't a perfect solution. the exact opposite of controlling a person's thoughts is to allow them to think whatever they like regardless of consequences. however america is supposed to be a melting pot for various cultures, and mindsets that go against this "in the name of patriotism" are quite unamerican.
    You should be careful admitting that you believe the government has the right to excersize mind control. It's likely that most people won't take you seriously if you say that. Allowing people to "think whatever they like regardless of consequences." is exactly what America is all about.

    There's never any excuse to restrict thought. None.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Quote Originally Posted by saul
    we're talking about the fact that these students displayed the flag with the intent of inciting violence or alienizing the mexican-american students.
    Thank you. I was not actually emphasizing the American flag aspect, but the Mexican-Americans' excessive pride. It's obviously a clash of cultures. But there's more.

    Let's talk legal.

    In America, expressions alone are not legal justification for violence. Immigrants and their families need to learn this, or they end up with criminal convictions. Someone could hurl the worst possible insults (yes, even about one's mother) and flip the bird a million times, yet the victim of such insults is not legally justified in responding violently. It's the law. Period.

    Even if we could prove that the boys intended to incite violence, it never would have happened had the Mexican-Americans not had such over-the-top pride (if indeed they had). The Mexican-Americans would be found guilty. They can learn the law the easy way or the hard way. They get to decide.
    Yeah. I find it kind of insulting that immigrants come to this country expecting us to adhere to their ideals instead of adhering to ours. To an American, self control, and control of one's own emotions is an absolute obligation. You're never entitled to hit someone because they hurt your feelings, no matter how badly they hurt them, or how deliberately.

    If you can't live up to that, then you have no place in our society, and you really should leave. If you don't, then we'll put you in a quarantine/cage/prison cell so we don't have to deal with you anymore. I honestly think that's one of the main reasons why American prisons are so full. Too many people can't live up to the ideals of an advanced society.
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    For the love of Thor... These students celebrating Cinco de Mayo were not immigrants. They were themselves american citizens... Born here, in this country. Good grief. How many more facts are you guys willing to twist to ensure your preferred narrative remains intact?
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    San Francisco's sanctuary ordinance allows local law enforcement the discretion not to report those booked for misdemeanor offenses to federal immigration officials. Those booked for felonies and believed to be undocumented are still reported, under the ordinance.

    Since the program started in October 2008, there have been about 2 million fingerprint inquiries into the system nationwide, according to Kice. Of those, she said, about 212,000 have turned up matches in the immigration database, resulting in more than 33,000 deportations.
    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/polit...-93013599.html

    Five Counties, the SF Bay Area, have what's called a 'Sanctuary Policy', which basically forbids questioning of 'Citizenship Status'. This normally includes State and Local provided benefits and privileges one of which is education. California and some other States, believe Texas being one, also provide tax supported subsidies for illegal's, to hold 'State Citizenship Status', if they otherwise qualify for College entrance, as an example. They will be charged the same 'Tuition' as State residents, where normally out of State or Country Residents pay substantially more.



    For the love of Thor... These students celebrating Cinco de Mayo were not immigrants. They were themselves american citizens... Born here, in this country. Good grief. How many more facts are you guys willing to twist to ensure your preferred narrative remains intact?
    inow; Briefly stated, there would be no way to prove what you are saying...

    However, I tend to agree those objecting 'after the fact' on this threads topic, were probably born in the US or at least 1st generation Americans. Folks from Mexico and illegal are not likely to charge the atmosphere their taking advantage of or would they even understand what was being celebrated (Cinco de mayo, not normally celebrated in Mexico). However this begs the question; If Americans and in American Schools, on what grounds were they protesting/demonstrating in the first place? Nobody is twisting any facts, anymore than you yourself, of course that being my opinion.

    In the event you have forgotten, this Flag Business, was a major issue in 2004/6, during many LA demonstrations, especially in support of President Bush's proposed 'Immigration Reform Policy'. The use of Mexican Flags during those events, may have played a big roll in it's eventual defeat.

    Red, white and blue -- red, white and green. Flags have played a prominent role in the immigration protests over the past weeks. In many of yesterday's marches, American flags were everywhere, a calculated move by march organizers. At other demonstrations, particularly early on in the current debate, Mexican flags were common. Here's Cardinal Mahoney dispensing advice to people in crowds at a march in Los Angeles yesterday.

    Cardinal ROGER MAHONEY (Archbishop of Los Angeles): So I'd like to request that unless you have an American flag, that you roll up flags from other countries and do not use them because they do not help us get the legislation we need.
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5336799


    On Jan. 20th 2004, President Bush, first embraced his 'Immigration Reform' policy to an American Audience (State of the Union Speech).


    Tonight I also ask you to reform our immigration laws so they reflect our values and benefit our economy.

    I propose a new temporary-worker program to match willing foreign workers with willing employers when no Americans can be found to fill the job. This reform will be good for our economy, because employers will find needed workers in an honest and orderly system. A temporary-worker program will help protect our homeland, allowing border patrol and law enforcement to focus on true threats to our national security.

    I oppose amnesty, because it would encourage further illegal immigration and unfairly reward those who break our laws.

    My temporary-worker program will preserve the citizenship path for those who respect the law, while bringing millions of hardworking men and women out from the shadows of American life.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...xt_012004.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    For the love of Thor... These students celebrating Cinco de Mayo were not immigrants. They were themselves american citizens... Born here, in this country. Good grief. How many more facts are you guys willing to twist to ensure your preferred narrative remains intact?
    inow; Briefly stated, there would be no way to prove what you are saying...
    Uhm, actually, yes there is. We keep pretty clear birth records in our country. However, looking back, I could have been more clear. The VAST majority... I posit that the number is over 90%... of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo at that school that day were themselves US citizens, and would not be at all surprised if the number were much higher.
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    What would Ghandi have done?
    What would Mandela have done?

    Answer those two points and it should be clear who ****ed up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by saul

    @kojax, although i agree that the nazis had a bad idea with making it legal for hitler to toss jews in concentration camps, the exact oppositte of that isn't a perfect solution. the exact opposite of controlling a person's thoughts is to allow them to think whatever they like regardless of consequences. however america is supposed to be a melting pot for various cultures, and mindsets that go against this "in the name of patriotism" are quite unamerican.
    You should be careful admitting that you believe the government has the right to excersize mind control. It's likely that most people won't take you seriously if you say that. Allowing people to "think whatever they like regardless of consequences." is exactly what America is all about.

    There's never any excuse to restrict thought. None.
    when did the word mind control come up in that? is mind control even a scientifically viable technology?

    i do believe that the government should prevent people from taking actions that "restrict thought" as you said. examples of this are racism, religous extremism, ethnic violence, and genocide.

    all of those things cause others to be forced to agree with the people commiting genocide, or who are racists, unless they wish to face consequences. these types of things can and should be stopped by the government of a country that claims to be a melting pot. one cannot mix oil with water because they refuse to interact. to solve the problem just replace the oil with something a bit more soluable. in this case that would be replacing racism and ignorance with acceptance and tolerance.

    the forum rules say this is a junk post unless i relate what i said to the conversation for those who don't understand how it relates on its own: if people were accepting of other cultures and refused to be offended by the fact that they were mixed in with others. if the caucasian students in this situation were able to accept the mexican americans they would understand that there is no point to ostracizing them by flaunting flags as if they were more patriotic. similarly if the mexican americans saw themselves more as american than mexican they would feel no need to take offense to flags being flaunted at them on cinco de mayo. actually if they were even more willing to consider themselves american rather than mexican they may not even celebrate cinco de mayo, seeing how mexico doesn't even celebrate it.
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    I agree with inow ... In a government-mandated public forum, these are fellow Americans (not immigrants) attempting to prevent other Americans from displaying the American flag on American soil.

    I could see if Armenians got upset that someone displayed the Turkish flag on April 24th, Armenia’s Genocide Remembrance Day. They could say that the Turks normally give them cause for sorrow, but to throw Turkish patriotism in their faces on the remembrance of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by Turkey amplifies it tremendously.

    Here’s a fictitious analogy to this Mexican-American farce that actually makes a little sense, although still ridiculous.

    The American “okay” hand sign is known in South America to symbolize the anal sphincter, and it’s an insult. South Americans immigrate to this country, and they and their children etc get accustomed to our “okay” symbol ... that is, it doesn’t bother them. Once a year, these people of South American heritage pretend they’re back in the mother country, and these kids at school DEMAND that no one use the “okay” hand sign because, on this particular day, it now means “anal sphincter”. Of course, kids will be kids, and some will purposely taunt them by making the sign at them and saying “You South Americans are OKAY with us!” And the South Americans, who think nothing of the hand sign all the other days of the year, will suddenly on this particular day, cause themselves to feel offended.

    Back to the original Mexican-American farce, Cinco de Mayo celebrates the Mexican defeat of the French. The French flag displayed on this day could be seen as incendiary, –OR– the Mexican-Americans could even laugh at the flag and say that, yes, Mexico beat those losers. Yet, here’s the American flag … the symbol of a neutral country ... the country where Mexican-AMERICANS choose to live, and they feel insulted that AMERICANS display the AMERICAN flag on AMERICAN soil on the day that these Mexican-AMERICANS have chosen to “hijack”.

    I gotta ask:

    How do they feel, walking down the street to school on Cinco de Mayo, seeing the American flag flown from porches of houses, or stuck to bumpers of cars, or flown from the flagstaff at school and other government buildings, or displayed in classrooms at school, or on a lapel pin worn by their teachers or principal? Do they feel insulted, turn up their noses at it, or spit on it?

    The answer is that they feel no such insult in these other situations, and that they gaze comfortably (perhaps even fondly or lovingly) upon the American flag, symbol of their adopted or native home, all the other days of the year and in other situations on the day they “hijacked”, yet they CHOOSE to feel insulted because they cannot DEMAND that their PEERS not display it.

    Their feeling of insult involves their peers, and in street-wise parlance, this is all about gangland “colors” and a demand for gangland “respect”.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    In a government-mandated public forum, these are fellow Americans (not immigrants) attempting to prevent other Americans from displaying the American flag on American soil.
    Except, as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the last three pages of thread, that is not what this issue is about. Nobody was attempting to prevent people from showing patriotic pride. Nobody was trying to prevent people from displaying the american flag on american soil. To suggest that is the case shows an incredibly myopic understanding (or, perhaps more appropriately, a misunderstanding) of the events being discussed.

    Since reading comprehension is obviously not a strong-suit for many of you, I will repeat.


    1. A group of boys with premeditation planned to wear their flag shirts on this day in order to reinforce an us/them mentality and jingoistically sought to ostracize Mexican-American students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo.

    2. Those same boys, and others, had done something very similar the year before, on that same day one year prior, when they stood outside the school waving american flags and jeering the mexican-american students as they entered the premises.

    3. The mexican-american students were understandably frustrated by these actions, and tensions rose.

    4. The school acted preemptively to deflate those tensions by asking the boys to change their shirts since they were being so intentionally provocative.

    5. Fox news and other right wing gas bags then began to misrepresent the issue by pretending that the boys were sent home for showing pride in their country.

    6. The rest of us reasonably well-educated people get further disheartened about how many retarded people in our country buy into that narrative, and how far from reality their arguments continue to veer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saul
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by saul

    @kojax, although i agree that the nazis had a bad idea with making it legal for hitler to toss jews in concentration camps, the exact oppositte of that isn't a perfect solution. the exact opposite of controlling a person's thoughts is to allow them to think whatever they like regardless of consequences. however america is supposed to be a melting pot for various cultures, and mindsets that go against this "in the name of patriotism" are quite unamerican.
    You should be careful admitting that you believe the government has the right to excersize mind control. It's likely that most people won't take you seriously if you say that. Allowing people to "think whatever they like regardless of consequences." is exactly what America is all about.

    There's never any excuse to restrict thought. None.
    when did the word mind control come up in that? is mind control even a scientifically viable technology?
    " the exact opposite of controlling a person's thoughts is to allow them to think whatever they like regardless of consequences."


    You used the word "allow". To "allow" something implies you had the option to stop it. If you suggest that "allow"-ing should not happen, then you are clearly suggesting that action ought to be taken in order to stop that thing from happening.


    i do believe that the government should prevent people from taking actions that "restrict thought" as you said. examples of this are racism, religous extremism, ethnic violence, and genocide.
    I think you're using a proprietary definition for racism, but I agree about the other words. The use of violence to impose a certain religion or ethnicity on others is certainly at attack on their freedom of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    For the love of Thor... These students celebrating Cinco de Mayo were not immigrants. They were themselves american citizens... Born here, in this country. Good grief. How many more facts are you guys willing to twist to ensure your preferred narrative remains intact?
    Right. True by way of constitutional law, but in a more general sense, anyone who has strong feelings about Cinco de Mayo is playing to their immigrant roots. They're self identifying as Mexicans rather than Americans.

    To be honest, I feel the same way about minority cultures demanding to be recognized by the mainstream culture as I do about immigrants demanding to be recognized by the mainstream culture. The mainstream should never have to change its ethics to accommodate an outsider.

    If fringe groups demand not to be provoked because they can't exercise enough self control to avoid reacting violently when they see someone else mocking them, then society is faced with one of two choices: give up our ethic of self control (and thereby move backward toward the stone age.), or wait for them to lose control and attack somebody, then arrest them and charge them with assault. (thereby ensuring that our prisons will continue to be filled by minorities.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    retarded people
    C'mon, no more jingoistic insults. :wink:

    I'm all for equality in America. :-D We can't show any favoritism, so when does Live Oak High School celebrate the heritage and pride of the other 202 countries of the world? :? Daniel Galli and Matt Dariano (two of the kids sent home) might want to celebrate their Italian heritage and pride, Dominic Maciel might want to celebrate his French pride, and Austin Carvalho might want to celebrate his Portuguese heritage and pride.

    Seriously, there's lots of kids who'd love to be able to celebrate their heritage and pride at school. Fair is fair. Right?
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    retarded people
    C'mon, no more jingoistic insults. :wink:

    I'm all for equality in America. :-D We can't show any favoritism, so when does Live Oak High School celebrate the heritage and pride of the other 202 countries of the world? :? Daniel Galli and Matt Dariano (two of the kids sent home) might want to celebrate their Italian heritage and pride, Dominic Maciel might want to celebrate his French pride, and Austin Carvalho might want to celebrate his Portuguese heritage and pride.

    Seriously, there's lots of kids who'd love to be able to celebrate their heritage and pride at school. Fair is fair. Right?
    If you are agains`t jingoistic insults, start by accepting that "Americans", doesn`t only imply USA. Mexicans are Americans too, the same as the rest of the people who live in this continent. By dennying their heritage as Americans, you are offending them the same as the rest of us, American nations.

    In relation to your off-topic, in Chile (South America), the sign for O.K. is the same as in the USA. The ass-hole is represented very similarly, only that all of the fingers are closed round the fore finger and thumb circle and slightly opened.
    Btw, Maciel is an Hispanic origin name, not French.

    Cinco de Mayo (5 of May, in spanish), is mainly an US-american-mexican heritage celebration and only celebrated by the military forces in Mexico, due to the fact that in that day the Mexican forces defeated the French in Puebla, Mexico, and avoided the attempted invation by France (a powerful nation by then), of Mexico. It is so symbolic for them because in that battle, the mexican forces were outnumbered by 3 to 2, and despite that diference they accomplished their victory. A great day for Mexico, and of course for America.
    :wink:
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    If you are agains`t jingoistic insults, start by accepting that "Americans", doesn`t only imply USA. Mexicans are Americans too, the same as the rest of the people who live in this continent. By dennying their heritage as Americans, you are offending them the same as the rest of us, American nations.
    Rickdog; If you walk up to most any person in the US, ask them where they are from, the answer will be some State, I'd answer Texas for instance. That by the way will include most ALL immigrants, especially the legal ones. When on these forums or in international political conversations people tend to use America/Canadian/Mexican/Chilean, opposed to North/Central/South, American, but nothing here has indicated folks from Mexico are NOT American, from your viewpoint. Frankly most really, don't have the slightest idea how closely these two Continents related to each other during the colonization period. Most of the US in fact were Spanish Territories, during most that period. The Louisiana Territory traded to France for debt and most the West US fought over and bought from Spain and Mexico...

    Haven't seen you around much lately, so guess your hard working your Veterinarian Career...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    If you are agains`t jingoistic insults, start by accepting that "Americans", doesn`t only imply USA. Mexicans are Americans too, the same as the rest of the people who live in this continent. By dennying their heritage as Americans, you are offending them the same as the rest of us, American nations.
    What I meant by jingoism was the application of the label of "retarded people" to those who persistently disagree. Such words also stigmatize the mental challenged people of the world.

    Yes, adding both Americas together totals 35 countries and almost a billion people, although I meant "American" in a national sense, not geographic.

    And I don't watch Fox news ... I can't stand them ... they laugh about evil things. I've gotten much of my facts on this from the local reports in the Morgan Hill Times, which I seriously doubt is a subsidiary of Fox news.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Dictionary:A·mer·i·can (ə-mĕr'ĭ-kən)
    Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionary

    adj.
    Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
    Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
    Of or relating to any of the Native American peoples.
    Indigenous to North or South America. Used of plants and animals.
    n.
    A native or inhabitant of America.
    A citizen of the United States.
    American English.
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    Is there anyone here arguing that the VAST majority of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo that day were not americans?

    Is there anyone here arguing that the VAST majority of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo that day were not US citizens?

    Is there anyone here who can't grasp why other members of North America (Canada, Mexico) and other members of South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, etc.) might find it arrogant for citizens of the US to call themselves AMERICANS at the exclusion of all others?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Is there anyone here arguing that the VAST majority of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo that day were not americans?

    Is there anyone here arguing that the VAST majority of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo that day were not US citizens?
    I don't really see what that has to do with sending kids home for wearing an American flag shirt.
    Is there anyone here who can't grasp why other members of North America (Canada, Mexico) and other members of South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, etc.) might find it arrogant for citizens of the US to call themselves AMERICANS at the exclusion of all others?
    It is merely a common use of the word, and has been that way for decades if not centuries. It implies no disrespect to anyone. If any Canadians, Mexicans or South Americans are insulted, then they are just looking for something to be insulted about.
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    Haha, for most Canadians being called an American amounts to one of the worse possible insults.

    To quote Margaret Atwood, "The difference between Canada and the USA is that Americans think Mexicans are below them and Canadians know Americans are below them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Is there anyone here arguing that the VAST majority of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo that day were not americans?

    Is there anyone here arguing that the VAST majority of students celebrating Cinco de Mayo that day were not US citizens?
    I don't really see what that has to do with sending kids home for wearing an American flag shirt.
    I know it's only been said like ten or twelve times, so you may have missed it, but that's not why the boys were sent home. They were sent home for the provocative intent of their actions and their desire to stir up tensions. That makes easily at least thirteen times it's been clarified, so now you know.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Is there anyone here who can't grasp why other members of North America (Canada, Mexico) and other members of South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, etc.) might find it arrogant for citizens of the US to call themselves AMERICANS at the exclusion of all others?
    It is merely a common use of the word, and has been that way for decades if not centuries. It implies no disrespect to anyone.
    That's super. Would you care to please now actually answer the question I asked? Are you able to grasp why people in other parts of these two continents MIGHT find it arrogant for us in one fraction of it to call ourselves americans at the exclusion of all others?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I know it's only been said like ten or twelve times, so you may have missed it, but that's not why the boys were sent home. They were sent home for the provocative intent of their actions and their desire to stir up tensions. That makes easily at least thirteen times it's been clarified, so now you know.
    Then why are you arguing about whether they are citizens? If somebody wore a Che Guevara t-shirt would they be sent home for having provocative intent? Or is it just provocative shirts with messages you don't like that should be sent home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Is there anyone here who can't grasp why other members of North America (Canada, Mexico) and other members of South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, etc.) might find it arrogant for citizens of the US to call themselves AMERICANS at the exclusion of all others?
    It is merely a common use of the word, and has been that way for decades if not centuries. It implies no disrespect to anyone.
    That's super. Would you care to please now actually answer the question I asked? Are you able to grasp why people in other parts of these two continents MIGHT find it arrogant for us in one fraction of it to call ourselves americans at the exclusion of all others?
    No, and I don't think they actually do. It is only politically correct Americans that are making an issue of it. It is clear that the use of the word "American" is only for convenience. I have seen people write "USian." How would you even pronounce that? Would you prefer United States of American?
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    United-statean seems to sound quite right, imho. Same as Argentinean, Chilean, Canadian or Brazilean, or the other possible way is to keep on using the american adjective, but putting US before it as "US-american", it seems more clarifying and makes a diference. Whenever we refer to you folks and don`t want to offend you guys in anyway, we usually call you as United-stateans (Estado-unidenses in spanish). Now when intentions are to provoke anger in you, there are other names, but I`m not going to say them now, since that is very far from my intentions. We all deserve the same kind of respect in this matters.
    inow, in regards to your question about the issue, I don`t think it is wrong to refer yourselves as americans when you are refering yourself in regards to citizens from other parts of the rest of the world, but in relation to other american nations, it sounds wrong. It would be the same as if a german said to a french anything and starting the phrase saying, "we Europeans are ........ than you", when both are really Europeans.

    Now in relation to the topic, how about a shirt with Osama Bin Laden instead, on it, would feel on September 11th, specially in New York ? (imho, something like this the least it deserves, is a toured trip to prison, with full costs paid for at least a month)

    As inow, brilliantly explained with the links he provided in his first post in this thread, those guys expelled from school, the year before already made manifestations against the mexican-americans the year before in the same date, so in order to avoid the same kind of provocation, that could turn into a graver issue, the school authorities decided what they decided as the lesser evil of the alternatives possible. They even asked them to change their shirts, which they did not comply. Only that as jrmonroe said, Fox news tried to give it a meaning completely diferent, and almost achieved what they expected with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    Now in relation to the topic, how about a shirt with Osama Bin Laden instead, on it, would feel on September 11th, specially in New York ? (imho, something like this the least it deserves, is a toured trip to prison, with full costs paid for at least a month)
    I don't think a student should be sent home for wearing an Osama bin Laden shirt. I think they would be a complete idiot. But in our country we have a tradition of free speech. Maybe you guys should copy that.
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    Well in this topic, it matters nothing what you particularly think about the issue, my friend. Some others may not think like you do and with that kind of message may want to take matters on their own, and react against it, taking it in their own hands the administration of justice and the least that it could provoke is a riot. In order to prevent this from happening, its wisest as an authority to only act against the provoker. In this case only the one wearing the stupid shirt.

    Btw, in my country, no student has ever been expelled from school for wearing a special t-shirt design. If ever someone does so, he will not even get admited in school, since every student must use uniform. This goes the same for public or private schools. And you know something ?, it works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    Now in relation to the topic, how about a shirt with Osama Bin Laden instead, on it, would feel on September 11th, specially in New York ? (imho, something like this the least it deserves, is a toured trip to prison, with full costs paid for at least a month)
    I don't think a student should be sent home for wearing an Osama bin Laden shirt. I think they would be a complete idiot. But in our country we have a tradition of free speech. Maybe you guys should copy that.
    if a student were to wear this shirt in a public school and this student were to go up to another student who's relatives died on 9/11 and said to them "hey you, like my shirt?" would you consider this action incendiary, assuming the student knew the other student's relatives had died?

    whether you consider it incendiary or not, it simply is. and if this student were doing this in a premeditated fashion and does it repeatedly(multiple years in a row), is it not reasonable to assume that this student is attempting to cause unrest?

    the answer is yes, and the response of any good school administrator to this situation would be to ask the student to remove their shirt and exchange it for something less offensive. if this student were to refuse, it would be the duty of the school administrator to protect the school(in particular, this student) from violence by removing this student.

    now in the case of the cinco de mayo fiasco the people celebrating cinco de mayo didn't have the right to be insulted, but regardless of this it is still the duty of the administrator to prevent a fight from breaking out. the actions of the administrators did just this.

    as to the right of the mexican-americans to be insulted, that is questionable, but quite irrelevant in this situation. it is not the job of the administrators to determine what they're allowed to be insulted by, as you have expressed that is your opinion on the issue.
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    Interestingly, the COMPLETE story about Cinco de Mayo ends differently and very much involves the sympathy and support of the US for Mexico, and that Mexico might not be the sovereign nation it is today without help from the United States.

    After the defeat at Puebla in 1862, Napoleon III sent 30,000 more troops who invaded from both coasts, fought their way inland, seized Puebla, and captured Mexico City. Mexican President Juarez and his troops fled into northern Mexico toward the US. France's Maximilian began ruling Mexico in 1864. Abraham Lincoln was sympathetic toward Mexico, and Mexico still honors him for this; however, the US was involved in its own Civil War and could not provide much assistance.

    After the American Civil War ended, the US supplied weapons to Juarez’s troops, established a naval blockade against French reinforcements, assembled 50,000 US troops at the border along the Rio Grande, and demanded that France withdraw from Mexico under threat of US invasion. Mexico was finally able to re-establish its sovereignty in 1867.

    Thus, in the end, Cinco de Mayo celebrates Mexico’s unlikely staving off of France’s initial invasion, but France succeeded in occupying Mexico anyway, and it ended only after significant US intervention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I know it's only been said like ten or twelve times, so you may have missed it, but that's not why the boys were sent home. They were sent home for the provocative intent of their actions and their desire to stir up tensions. That makes easily at least thirteen times it's been clarified, so now you know.
    Then why are you arguing about whether they are citizens?
    Because one of the people misrepresenting the issue suggested they were immigrants. I was correcting that false representation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    If somebody wore a Che Guevara t-shirt would they be sent home for having provocative intent?
    I guess that would depend entirely on whether or not their intent was provocative and likely to lead to violence now, wouldn't it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Or is it just provocative shirts with messages you don't like that should be sent home?
    Nope, and can you please clarify... Are you now suggesting that I personally consider the american flag to be a message which I don't like? If so, you have dangerously lost touch with reality in some "grasping at straws" attempt to make a point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by iNow
    Are you able to grasp why people in other parts of these two continents MIGHT find it arrogant for us in one fraction of it to call ourselves americans at the exclusion of all others?
    No, and I don't think they actually do.
    The point is that some might. If you can't even recognize or acknowledge that possibility, then I think I'm done here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I don't think a student should be sent home for wearing an Osama bin Laden shirt. I think they would be a complete idiot. But in our country we have a tradition of free speech. Maybe you guys should copy that.
    Free speech has limits, especially in schools, as evidenced by SCOTUS decisions such as that put forth in Morse v. Frederick and also Bethel School District v. Fraser.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I know it's only been said like ten or twelve times, so you may have missed it, but that's not why the boys were sent home. They were sent home for the provocative intent of their actions and their desire to stir up tensions. That makes easily at least thirteen times it's been clarified, so now you know.
    Then why are you arguing about whether they are citizens?
    Because one of the people misrepresenting the issue suggested they were immigrants. I was correcting that false representation.
    Even if they were citizens they could still be immigrants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    If somebody wore a Che Guevara t-shirt would they be sent home for having provocative intent?
    I guess that would depend entirely on whether or not their intent was provocative and likely to lead to violence now, wouldn't it?
    I think it's rather provocative. It would lead to violence if somebody else became violent, which of course, would be the responsibility of the violent person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Or is it just provocative shirts with messages you don't like that should be sent home?
    Nope, and can you please clarify... Are you now suggesting that I personally consider the american flag to be a message which I don't like? If so, you have dangerously lost touch with reality in some "grasping at straws" attempt to make a point.
    It is quite clear that you did not like the message in that particular context, since you called it provocative. Whether you do or don't like the flag in some other context, I have no idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by iNow
    Are you able to grasp why people in other parts of these two continents MIGHT find it arrogant for us in one fraction of it to call ourselves americans at the exclusion of all others?
    No, and I don't think they actually do.
    The point is that some might. If you can't even recognize or acknowledge that possibility, then I think I'm done here.
    That is your prerogative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I don't think a student should be sent home for wearing an Osama bin Laden shirt. I think they would be a complete idiot. But in our country we have a tradition of free speech. Maybe you guys should copy that.
    Free speech has limits, especially in schools, as evidenced by SCOTUS decisions such as that put forth in Morse v. Frederick and also Bethel School District v. Fraser.
    In the one case the school administration was upheld because the message was promoting drug use and was against school policy. In the other case the administration was upheld because the message was vulgar and contained sexual innuendo. Another case where the court ruled in favor of the students was Tinker vs Des Moines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_...chool_District
    In this case the students were wearing armbands to protest the Vietnam war. That is closer to what we have in the present case where students were wearing flag shirts, perhaps to protest the government's failure to enforce immigration laws.
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    The details don't so much matter since my references were intended to support my primary point that free speech is often limited in schools. However, since you appropriately recognized that those limits are themselves limited, I will put forth the link below for more context and clarity on this particular issue:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...t_Amendment%29



    Regardless, the point remains... The school administrators sensed a rise in tensions, and determined that the boys were being intentionally provocative and/or inflammatory. Sending them home for failure to comply with a request to change (or turn inside-out) their shirts is well within their jurisdiction and authority.
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    The details matter a lot, because the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the school administration in some cases and in favor of the students in similar but slightly different circumstances. In the case where the court ruled for the students, the students were also being intentionally provocative. So, no, I don't agree that the school administrators were within their authority.
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    Well, that's your prerogative, Harold.

    The issue AFAIC wasn't one of freedom of speech, so the SCOTUS stuff is mostly tangential. The issue is instead more accurately contextualized within the framework of school administrators acting before a situation became volatile or violent.

    If you would rather move forward on this thread with the interpretation that this issue is about boys being punished for doing nothing other than showing pride in their flag, that's fine. Your opinion is yours to maintain. Personally... I just don't like fairy tales and fantasy a whole lot, so I will instead go with the interpretation which I've put forth in this thread as being the more compelling one.
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    In relation to the kids will, to wear clothing related to the US flag, here is an interesting page , that also should be considered before getting conclussions.
    Don`t you think so ?

    Specially first line of letter D.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...8----000-.html

    Why nobody says nothing related to this, instead ?
    Imho, it is even a more serious issue. The lack of respect towards your own countries symbols.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    In relation to the kids will, to wear clothing related to the US flag, here is an interesting page , that also should be considered before getting conclussions.
    Don`t you think so ?

    Specially first line of letter D.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...8----000-.html

    Why nobody says nothing related to this, instead ?
    Imho, it is even a more serious issue. The lack of respect towards your own countries symbols.


    :lol:
    well here's the line you said to pay special attention to:
    The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.
    and you're quite mistaken about its meaning if you think it pertains to these boys. the idea of the flag being used as wearing apparel isn't talking about a shirt with the flag printed on it, or a flag colored bandana. the article reffers to the fact that it's not politically correct to wear an actual flag as something like a blanket or a shawl. which is not what the students were wearing, unless i've been misinformed by multiple web sources and a television news source.

    the intent with which they were wearing their flag-clothing is quite unpatriotic, but there mere fact of wearing such clothing isn't inherently bad. in fact it can be quite patriotic to do so, simply not when there is intent to instill violence.
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    thats just insane first of all people in MExico don't really care about cinco de Mayo trust me almost all of my mothers side and a bit of my fathers side of the family live in Mexico and both my parents grow up in Mexico and know spanish(I do to) I also visit alot cinco de mayo isn't even independence day for mexico it is actually celebrating the famous battle of pueblo were the mexicans were out numbered and out gunned literlly it would be the equivlent of having 5 guys with pistols against 10 guys with assult rifles put pueblo still won thats the mircle the reason to be all happy.
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    Wow...can we miss the big picture, or can we miss the big picture?

    Even though 2 of those evil shirt-wearers are of Latino decent, they are Americans. And, even if their intent WAS to incite a reaction from others, is that not what every cultural movement in the US has ever been about? These kids are proud to be Americans, and are probably, like most Americans, a little aggitated by other people condemning this nation, by flaunting their own...while in this country, using the freedoms granted by our Constitution to do so. This is what I don't understand about some immigrants...why come HERE, to recreate your 'home'? How about being proactive and changing your 'home' for the better, instead of coming to a "lose" country where anything goes, and trying to push it in another direction?

    Maybe this was a statement by school children reflecting the silent animosity that is wide spread, due to a vast influx of immigrants that have no intention on becoming part of our society, and create 'cells' within communities, isolating themselves from the country in which the have entered. Maybe their attitudes stem from watching illegal immigrant rallies, and protests...both of which are bastardizations of our Constitution, since the laws protecting illegals don't even technically apply to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    Wow...can we miss the big picture, or can we miss the big picture?

    Even though 2 of those evil shirt-wearers are of Latino decent, they are Americans. And, even if their intent WAS to incite a reaction from others, is that not what every cultural movement in the US has ever been about? These kids are proud to be Americans, and are probably, like most Americans, a little aggitated by other people condemning this nation, by flaunting their own...while in this country, using the freedoms granted by our Constitution to do so. This is what I don't understand about some immigrants...why come HERE, to recreate your 'home'? How about being proactive and changing your 'home' for the better, instead of coming to a "lose" country where anything goes, and trying to push it in another direction?

    Maybe this was a statement by school children reflecting the silent animosity that is wide spread, due to a vast influx of immigrants that have no intention on becoming part of our society, and create 'cells' within communities, isolating themselves from the country in which the have entered. Maybe their attitudes stem from watching illegal immigrant rallies, and protests...both of which are bastardizations of our Constitution, since the laws protecting illegals don't even technically apply to them.
    maybe i failed the first grade class on understanding the subject of a conversation, but it appears to me that up untill now this topic is one about whether or not the administrators had the right/responsibility to do what they did in this scenario. it hasn't been one about immigrants comming into america. i'm sure you're more than welcome to post that in the racism section of the forum... oh hold on i've just been informed that we refer to that as the trash.

    as far as the majority of the people i know is concerned there is NO animosity towards people who come to america from other countries, regardless of their intentions to or not to melt in to society. animosity only occurs when they intend to infringe on our rights, which is rare but not unheard of.

    back on topic, well i think that the conversation has gone down to inow and harrold going at it so i'm signing off from this topic. it looks pretty finely beat up anyways.
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    Oh. I thought I'd vanquished Harold on this topic already by showing his arguments to be displaced from reality. Are we still in battle? Should I call in the archers and bring forth my elephants? 8)
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    I have mixed views on this topic. On one side to deliberately plan to wear certain clothing on a day when you know it will get a reaction is in itself highly questionable.

    On another side I feel that once your living in a country and actually professing to be in support of that country you should not feel more pride for the country you left then the country your living in and plan to stay in. It's like walking in to a restaurant wearing a t-shirt for another restaurant and during your entire stay stating how much better the food is at the restaurant your not in. I think their are many immigrants living in many countries who hold animosity toward the country and people living around them, yet at the same time they have no problems taking everything those countries have to offer. It's like saying, hey your food sucks but it's free so I'll take it.

    I see a lot of immigrants who are very hard workers and have lots of pride in America, I also see lots of them who go to work every day to collect their pay only to return to their "homes" and piss all over the flag in a figurative sense. They have no desire once so ever to integrate with the rest of society, instead they try to bring their old countries customs and beliefs to their new country. Something I think has both good and bad points.
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    All fair points, but not so much tied to the central point of this thread, IMO. Students were asked to adjust their attire because it was likely to lead to violence and because they wore it premeditatedly to incite. They were sent home when they refused to do so.

    Now people are claiming that the school administrators hate america and that the boys were sent home merely for being patriotic and nationalistically proud? Really? Is that the level of retardation which has come down upon our populace?

    What is wrong with these people? Why is this not obvious?
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Oh. I thought I'd vanquished Harold on this topic already by showing his arguments to be displaced from reality. Are we still in battle? Should I call in the archers and bring forth my elephants? 8)
    Now, that's funny. Last time I checked you had brought up an argument about some supreme court decisions, which I crushed, so then you decided that the supreme court decisions were irrelevant. At which point I abandoned the discussion rather than cause you further embarrassment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    What is wrong with these people? Why is this not obvious?
    The problem is that you are an ideologue and are not capable of seeing the other side of any argument.
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    This is all off-topic, but however :

    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    On another side I feel that once your living in a country and actually professing to be in support of that country you should not feel more pride for the country you left then the country your living in and plan to stay in.
    Why not ?. Why can`t it be a matter of convenience for both sides ?.


    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    It's like walking in to a restaurant wearing a t-shirt for another restaurant and during your entire stay stating how much better the food is at the restaurant your not in.
    It`s simply a matter of respect towards the people and country who is giving you temporary hospitality. The example you use here only shows bad manners of the one who ever professes it. In the same example, you can prefer the food of another restaurant, diferent than the one where you`re in, but as a matter of respect to it and its clients, you decide not to wear the t-shirt you mention and simply stay quiet about the issue and give thanks and enjoy the companionship of the other clients in the place. This is simply a matter of being polite and it has nothing to do with patriotism.

    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    I think their are many immigrants living in many countries who hold animosity toward the country and people living around them, yet at the same time they have no problems taking everything those countries have to offer. It's like saying, hey your food sucks but it's free so I'll take it.

    I see a lot of immigrants who are very hard workers and have lots of pride in America, I also see lots of them who go to work every day to collect their pay only to return to their "homes" and piss all over the flag in a figurative sense. They have no desire once so ever to integrate with the rest of society, instead they try to bring their old countries customs and beliefs to their new country. Something I think has both good and bad points.
    Yes, I see lots of US-americans here in this part of America (Chile), who also live here and stay here for life, and every day they brag how great is their country in relation to the one thats giving them shelter and hospitality, but that doesn`t mean we have to fall in their level of madness, it`s their problem to solve, we simply don`t listen to them. But we also have other US-americans who also stay here for life in America ( ), that decide to embrace this country as their own. It`s their decission to do so, but that doesn`t mean that they leave hate for their former country, and they will cellebrate each 4 of july, and wave their former flags, which is completely respectful. Even in our National day, foreign flags are allowed, it only depends on how you use them and in what manner in relation to our own, simply respect one another, that`s the clue. Now if they are cellebrating their former countries independence day in Chile, since many of them will be together for this ocassion, it would be completely out of place if I step in the party and start waving my countries, Chilean flag, that wouldn`t be an act of patriotism, it would be an act of complete stupidity and lack of respect towards everybody who is in the party. Mmmmm......., where have I heard of something that resembles this situation ?
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    If a group of male students wore dresses and makeup to school, they would be sent home so the football team wouldn't beat them up; for their own safety. Then, there would be a lawsuit, and the left-leaning courts would lament these kids as forward thinking heroes and gender identity pioneers.

    Or...what if a Hindu kid and his family moves to Sticksville, USA...should s/he be sent home because the rednecks might start a fight?

    The school should have set these kids down and said:

    Look, you wore these clothes to taunt Hispanics. However, I cannot tell you that your clothing is a violation of dress code, or inappropriate...only your timing, and perceived intent. Your clothing could possibly incite violence against you, which we will deal with according to our school policy, and the law. That being said, you have two options:

    A.) Change your clothes, or turn them inside out...or...
    B.) Accept the risk that you may get "jumped".

    Here it is in writing, and your parents will need to sign it before we release you back to your classes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    Now if they are cellebrating their former countries independence day in Chile, since many of them will be together for this ocassion, it would be completely out of place if I step in the party and start waving my countries, Chilean flag, that wouldn`t be an act of patriotism, it would be an act of complete stupidity and lack of respect towards everybody who is in the party. Mmmmm......., where have I heard of something that resembles this situation ?
    :wink:
    That does not resemble the same situation at all. The students did not barge into a private party of Mexican nationals and start waving the American flag. They were going to school, which they are required to attend by law.

    An analogous situation would be if American students went to a school in Chile on the Fourth of July and started waving American flags, and demanding that the Chilean students not display the flag of Chile.
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    That's the crux of it ... government-mandated attendance ... plus, fairness dictates that all "nationalities" receive equal treatment. From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe -- have a day for one, you must have days for all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saul
    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    Wow...can we miss the big picture, or can we miss the big picture?

    Even though 2 of those evil shirt-wearers are of Latino decent, they are Americans. And, even if their intent WAS to incite a reaction from others, is that not what every cultural movement in the US has ever been about? These kids are proud to be Americans, and are probably, like most Americans, a little aggitated by other people condemning this nation, by flaunting their own...while in this country, using the freedoms granted by our Constitution to do so. This is what I don't understand about some immigrants...why come HERE, to recreate your 'home'? How about being proactive and changing your 'home' for the better, instead of coming to a "lose" country where anything goes, and trying to push it in another direction?

    Maybe this was a statement by school children reflecting the silent animosity that is wide spread, due to a vast influx of immigrants that have no intention on becoming part of our society, and create 'cells' within communities, isolating themselves from the country in which the have entered. Maybe their attitudes stem from watching illegal immigrant rallies, and protests...both of which are bastardizations of our Constitution, since the laws protecting illegals don't even technically apply to them.
    maybe i failed the first grade class on understanding the subject of a conversation, but it appears to me that up untill now this topic is one about whether or not the administrators had the right/responsibility to do what they did in this scenario. it hasn't been one about immigrants comming into america. i'm sure you're more than welcome to post that in the racism section of the forum... oh hold on i've just been informed that we refer to that as the trash.

    as far as the majority of the people i know is concerned there is NO animosity towards people who come to america from other countries, regardless of their intentions to or not to melt in to society. animosity only occurs when they intend to infringe on our rights, which is rare but not unheard of.

    back on topic, well i think that the conversation has gone down to inow and harrold going at it so i'm signing off from this topic. it looks pretty finely beat up anyways.
    Ironically, discussing all aspects of the topic seen from each individual personality is the heart behind the motto "Diversity is Our Strength." I was exploring the "why" behind this incident. Also, to your embedded presumption that I am a racist, well, check your assumptions at the door, because it monopolized your post with the stench of ignorance.

    Here in the US, there is a considerable amount of animosity toward illegal aliens...whether you or whomever chooses to acknowledge or deny that fact is irrelevant to its existence. In fact, you'll find the greatest anger coming from the LEGAL immigrant community, that played by the rules, joined the system and their communities by waiting for years "in line". A few friends of mine, Wadji, Stanovich, and Johnny (Juan) all get boiling mad, because they all came here legally, and it took them most of a decade to get papered...but I only mention this to offer another side of your statement regarding the people you know.

    So, just in case the Mods start circling over my post here, let me tie this back in...the OP was "what Americans thought" about this situation. Thus I think it is reasonable to discuss the "why(s)", since implicit motivations are certainly an major theme in this situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Now, that's funny.
    I thought that you might appreciate that comment. :wink:


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Last time I checked you had brought up an argument about some supreme court decisions, which I crushed, so then you decided that the supreme court decisions were irrelevant.
    Hmm... Well, that's certainly one way to interpret our exchange. I don't think it's a valid interpretation, but it's still an interpretation, all the same. Here's mine.

    * You put forth an argument rooted in the protections of free speech.
    * I reminded you that free speech has limits, especially in schools.
    * I then shared two quick references in support of my position that there is SCOTUS precedent for limits of free speech in schools.
    * You then tried to make a a point that my evidence didn't apply because there was not a one-to-one alignment between the events in my evidence and the events at this school.
    * I said it was not relevant since my only motivation was to offer evidence in support of my point that sometimes free speech is limited, especially at schools.


    But yeah... sure... I guess you can keep thinking that you crushed my argument. Whatever floats your boat... Which... on a science forum... we all know is buoyancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    What is wrong with these people? Why is this not obvious?
    The problem is that you are an ideologue and are not capable of seeing the other side of any argument.
    I don't think this is a fair point. Again, you are welcome to think that, but I change my mind on numerous issues when a valid argument has been put forth for the side differing from my own. You simply haven't made that argument.

    The fact that I find your arguments flawed and uncompelling does not ipso facto mean that I am an ideologue incapable of changing my mind or seeing the other side of an issue.
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  85. #84  
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    If a group of male students wore dresses and makeup to school, they would be sent home so the football team wouldn't beat them up;
    <...>
    Or...what if a Hindu kid and his family moves to Sticksville, USA...should s/he be sent home because the rednecks might start a fight?
    Your comparison would only be valid if those male students or hindu kids wore what they did to be intentionally provocative, in an intentional attempt to magnify the sense of "us and them," and to demean them for being who they are. Without that, it's a false comparison.



    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    Here in the US, there is a considerable amount of animosity toward illegal aliens...whether you or whomever chooses to acknowledge or deny that fact is irrelevant to its existence.
    And, that's a very fair point. You are certainly correct. The challenge I think many of us are discussing, which IMO is at the core of this issue, is how much of that animosity toward illegal aliens is being spread to actual citizens, and how many actual citizens are on the receiving end of that animosity ultimately just because they are more brown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    If a group of male students wore dresses and makeup to school, they would be sent home so the football team wouldn't beat them up;
    <...>
    Or...what if a Hindu kid and his family moves to Sticksville, USA...should s/he be sent home because the rednecks might start a fight?
    Your comparison would only be valid if those male students or hindu kids wore what they did to be intentionally provocative, in an intentional attempt to magnify the sense of "us and them," and to demean them for being who they are. Without that, it's a false comparison.
    You then tried to make a a point that my evidence didn't apply because there was not a one-to-one alignment between the events in my evidence and the events at this school.
    Not trying to be a turd by posting that...but it was right there. Very few comparisons are going to be one-to-one, but I think that the "actor's" intent may actually be muffled by the reaction it causes...so if Chuck wore high heals, to proudly display his sexuality, it is in essence a differential statement. If Namakarana Samskara wore a customary Hindu choli and sari to Redneck High School, the intent was to remain traditional, yet could have been perceived as wanting to stand out by intentionally segregating herself. We all know perception is not always reality. Regardless, a violent reaction is the sole property of the (re)actors).
    "Let your anger be as a monkey in a pinata, hiding with the candy, hoping the children do not break through with a stick."

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." *Einstein
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  87. #86  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    Now if they are cellebrating their former countries independence day in Chile, since many of them will be together for this ocassion, it would be completely out of place if I step in the party and start waving my countries, Chilean flag, that wouldn`t be an act of patriotism, it would be an act of complete stupidity and lack of respect towards everybody who is in the party. Mmmmm......., where have I heard of something that resembles this situation ?
    :wink:
    That does not resemble the same situation at all. The students did not barge into a private party of Mexican nationals and start waving the American flag. They were going to school, which they are required to attend by law.
    Read a little more carefully my post, I never talked about a private party. Anyhow, that doesn`t matter, it would still be provocative and lack of respect towards them. In the case of the kids at Live Oak valley, they already did the same the year before, without being harrased nor bothered in any way, so their intention this year was very clear that it was going in the same way, at lunch time there was going to be cellebrations with typical dances of Mexico in that school, so it is very likely that they were preparing themselves to jeopardize it, but things happened as they did and we really will never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    An analogous situation would be if American students went to a school in Chile on the Fourth of July and started waving American flags, and demanding that the Chilean students not display the flag of Chile.
    Actually when other nationals in Chile cellebrate their countries festivities, nobody bothers them and even sometimes are also cheered by the Chileans with great joy and enthusiasm, and I remember that when I was at school, everybody brought US flags to school, not even having one US-american schoolmate in the whole school. I don`t see why you US-americans make such a big deal about it. To me, in my very personal humble opinion, I would say that the reaction produced by this whole episode in the USA is childish, although probably small children wouldn`t even react the same way themselves, but I`m not US-american so I can`t pretend to be one, and emphatize with you on this one. Maybe if someone would have burned or made a mock of the US flag at the moment, that would be a diferent story, but nobody did, since they all were US-american citizens with diferent ethnic origin but US-american all, at the end, so they didn`t feel the need to do something like that, and they also feel pride with your red, white and blue flag.

    (off-topic): although humbly, I think we Chileans perfected it when we used your flag as a basis to create our own, one star, one spirit , one nation, same colors. Even Texas thought the same, cause they copied it from us ( , just kidding a little bit, sorry)
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    I don`t see why you US-americans make such a big deal about it. To me, in my very personal humble opinion, I would say that the reaction produced by this whole episode in the USA is childish, although probably small children wouldn't even react the same way themselves, but I`m not US-american so I can`t pretend to be one, and emphatize with you on this one.
    Rickdog; It really wasn't a "big deal", at least off the two Forums, I know you participate in. Then the motivation, behind the bad reviews (on the forums) were politically based, nothing remotely concerned with what your concerns are. As I mentioned earlier, something similar probably happened in hundreds of other schools (of all grades and colleges) without being reported or had any problems and life has gone on for everyone, including those in the SF Bay Area...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickdog
    In the case of the kids at Live Oak valley, they already did the same the year before, without being harrased nor bothered in any way, so their intention this year was very clear that it was going in the same way, at lunch time there was going to be cellebrations with typical dances of Mexico in that school, so it is very likely that they were preparing themselves to jeopardize it, but things happened as they did and we really will never know.
    Now you are just making things up. The kids were approached by the school administrators while they were peacefully sitting minding their own business. If they did the same thing the year before, and there were no incidents, why would you expect something different this year.

    As it turns out , the school district made it clear that they do not support the actions of the school administrators. I think the school district knows that they are in trouble, as the kids will probably sue them for violation of their first amendment rights.
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    jackson33, my friend, when I refered to the big deal for US-americans, I was refering to it among the most part of the USA, specially news programs, and not specifically to any forum, since many members in them have understood the same thing as I did about the issue. And really this is the only forum where I participate that touched the issue, unless that I`m not aware that they tried it also back there. Maybe there is another person with the same nick and who knows ?, stole my avatar, since I made it completely. Getting off-topic, I don`t know if this Forum allows it to say in which forums around the net, you participate in, but in regards to science, you are right, there is another one, whose name resembles the name of this one, but I`m not going to say any more about it, till somebody among the administrators or moderators allow me to do so. There are other forums, but not related to science, and in most of them I use the same nick and avatar.

    Harold14370, my friend, I didn`t make anything up as you say I did, it`s all said by other students of the same school, who supported the actions done by their authorities. You can see it by yourself in the same link provided by our friend inow, in the second post of this thread, this one right here :

    http://www.ktvu.com/news/23470391/detail.html

    About your second observation, yes the Morgan Hill school district, didn`t back up the decission made at Live Oak Valley, but they also got it very clear that the decission taken in Live Oak Valley had nothing to do about the kids wearing the US-american flags in their clothes, the kids the next day were perfectly allowed to attend to school and even one of them wore the same clothing and nobody harrased him about it . If you ask me about the activities that were suposed to be done at lunch time that cinco de mayo, that I mentioned, you can see it by yourself in the pages in the web of the Live Oak Valley High school, that despite everything said about the issue, are very cool web pages (imho), and in the activities calender in the students section it still has in sight the schedule of that day. Seeing those pages it really makes me wish I was a teenage once more, the only thing that really scares me about it, is how the cost of living in the USA has changed till the last time I was back there (in the USA, I mean), everything is so expensive!!!, with the fees charged for the parties and regular school items for sale, you make yourself a living in other countries. Its outrageous.

    http://liveoakhs.ca.campusgrid.net/h...es/Weekly+News
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    . That is closer to what we have in the present case where students were wearing flag shirts, perhaps to protest the government's failure to enforce immigration laws.
    This is a good point, and a big question. How else are students supposed to protest decisions by their government that they are not happy with?

    No matter how you protest lose immigration laws, you are virtually guaranteed to incite the children of legal and illegal immigrants. If people can't express how they feel about it, then it becomes a political black area where the democratic will of the people can never be correctly represented. Do you want to deny one side of the issue their right to voice an opinion? (Nobody's going to tell immigrants they can't express their favorable view of lax immigration laws.)

    Does one side have the right to shut the other up by threatening to get violent? (Counting any attempt by the other side to speak against their perspective as "incitement" is the same thing as threatening violence. They're saying "If you do X, I will do Y, where X is you saying what you think about a political issue, and Y is an act of violence." )
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    Wow...can we miss the big picture, or can we miss the big picture?

    Even though 2 of those evil shirt-wearers are of Latino decent, they are Americans. And, even if their intent WAS to incite a reaction from others, is that not what every cultural movement in the US has ever been about? These kids are proud to be Americans, and are probably, like most Americans, a little aggitated by other people condemning this nation, by flaunting their own...while in this country, using the freedoms granted by our Constitution to do so. This is what I don't understand about some immigrants...why come HERE, to recreate your 'home'? How about being proactive and changing your 'home' for the better, instead of coming to a "lose" country where anything goes, and trying to push it in another direction?
    Mexicans don't come here because they want to move or change thier homes they come here because it is safer here and it is eisier to make money here.
    Once a door is opened it never truly closes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topalk
    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    Wow...can we miss the big picture, or can we miss the big picture?

    Even though 2 of those evil shirt-wearers are of Latino decent, they are Americans. And, even if their intent WAS to incite a reaction from others, is that not what every cultural movement in the US has ever been about? These kids are proud to be Americans, and are probably, like most Americans, a little aggitated by other people condemning this nation, by flaunting their own...while in this country, using the freedoms granted by our Constitution to do so. This is what I don't understand about some immigrants...why come HERE, to recreate your 'home'? How about being proactive and changing your 'home' for the better, instead of coming to a "lose" country where anything goes, and trying to push it in another direction?
    Mexicans don't come here because they want to move or change thier homes they come here because it is safer here and it is eisier to make money here.
    Agreed...which is why I basically said the same thing in the quote above. It is easier to invade this country than change "your" own.
    "Let your anger be as a monkey in a pinata, hiding with the candy, hoping the children do not break through with a stick."

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." *Einstein
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    I'll just put this forward for like the seventeenth time since memory seems to fade faster than narrative... These kids were US citizens... born here... in the United States. Do feel free to carry on in the fantasy in your heads, though.
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  95. #94  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I'll just put this forward for like the seventeenth time since memory seems to fade faster than narrative... These kids were US citizens... born here... in the United States. Do feel free to carry on in the fantasy in your heads, though.
    YAY!!! And the point of this part of the discussion is that the evil t-shirt kids may be tired of the illegals that are out there. So, while Americans celebrate Cinco de Mayo (which could easily be construed as supportive of illegals), other Americans reassure pride in the USA (which could easily be construed as unsupportive of illegals.) It cuts both ways, there, tiger.
    "Let your anger be as a monkey in a pinata, hiding with the candy, hoping the children do not break through with a stick."

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." *Einstein
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunchBox
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I'll just put this forward for like the seventeenth time since memory seems to fade faster than narrative... These kids were US citizens... born here... in the United States. Do feel free to carry on in the fantasy in your heads, though.
    YAY!!! And the point of this part of the discussion is that the evil t-shirt kids may be tired of the illegals that are out there. So, while Americans celebrate Cinco de Mayo (which could easily be construed as supportive of illegals), other Americans reassure pride in the USA (which could easily be construed as unsupportive of illegals.) It cuts both ways, there, tiger.
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