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Thread: Small state proclamation jurisdiction

  1. #1 Small state proclamation jurisdiction 
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    Sometimes in movies rich people owe their own small
    islands.I have question in this regard: if some person or
    political group of people wants to buy their own small island from some poor country and proclaim their own state in there, what is world wide jurisdiction towards such decision?Do exist some countries in the world which would agree to sell some small island forever?
    What about artificially created islands or giant ships?
    Could it be proclaimed as independent republic?


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  3. #2  
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    Actually, yes.


    There are numerous small island "nations" only a couple square miles that you can actually rent.

    No one can stop you from building your own island country as long as it is in international waters.


    lol and you would need a lot of money to purchase an island and make it your own.. Though it sounds far fetched there is nothing that says you can not



    I once had that fantasy when i was about 7.


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    Stanley; There are literally thousands of Islands for sale, a good many not affiliated with a Country. If a group or even an individual wanted or could purchase (not really very expensive) and develop a small Nation, I don't think their are any International Laws, forbidding. This one could be had for about the price of some apartments in NYC, 500k$.

    Island For Sale in Belize - - DIVORCE LIQUIDATION: This property and Horizon Caye are being offered at a greatly reduced price to sell quickly. Only swimming distance from each other, there is an even greater saving opportunity for those interested in purchasing both. Mystery Caye is a wholly owned private island ...
    http://www.escapeartist.com/Internat..._For_Sale.html

    What you probably asking is can they be Internationally recognized, if declared a Nation. If large enough, many are, for development and were talking billions of dollars for construction, from a port to an infrastructure or even homes built and say a tourist industry (Hotels/Gaming/fishing), I really don't think there would be anything to prevent them from forming a government. Once this is done it's simply a matter of that recognition, by other Nations.

    The smallest today are the following, number after the names square km (1km = .621 mile)

    1- Vatican City 0.44 2- Monaco 1.95 3- Pitcairn Islands 5 4- Gibraltar 6- 5 Tokelau 12 6- Nauru 21 7- Tuvalu 26 8- Norfolk Island 36 9- Bermuda 53 10- San Marino 61...

    Ships or anything artificial, currently can not be recognized, other than by their home port. Antarctica, is an interesting story as well and keep in mind international waters (opposed to Government claims for territorial rights) is also under a variety of agreements. I don't have time today, but think a certain mileage from their continental shelf, not necessarily the land boundaries. This has come to importance in the Arctic, where oil rights are involved.

    http://www.globalclassroom.org/antarct9.html
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    I also thought about such question:
    Currently many Europeans are concerned that their cultures are being wiped out by immigrants.There arouse many parties who are trying to stop immigration.But why not purchase an Island and not create a country for people of specific culture there?
    It seems those parties can't get majority of votes in any
    European country.I don't want to tell that I support some party,but just curious.
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    we have the same problem in America though we welcome immigration it is illegal immigration because they do not have to pay taxes and generally leach off the government in some form or another. I would compare our mexican and central american immigration problem to the dislike of gypsies in Europe as it has become somewhat of a racist movement in both places.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by An inconvenient lie
    ...... illegal immigration because they do not have to pay taxes and generally leach off the government in some form or another.
    How curious then, that businesses find it beneficial to employ such illegal aliens on account of their hard work and acceptance of low wages.
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    How curious then, that businesses find it beneficial to employ such illegal aliens on account of their hard work and acceptance of low wages.
    Technologically developed economy in developed countries do not require lot of unskilled work force now.Even if there will be shortage of workers who need
    to do some dirty work,one of the best solution is developing remote labor technology,such as shown,for
    example, in movies "Surrogates" and "Sleep dealer"
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804529/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    Technologically developed economy in developed countries do not require lot of unskilled work force now.Even if there will be shortage of workers who need
    to do some dirty work,one of the best solution is developing remote labor technology,such as shown,for
    example, in movies "Surrogates" and "Sleep dealer"
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804529/
    1. Such options are not currently available.
    2. I am unable to access the url at present. Are you telling me that if offers solutions to providing hotel staff and office cleaners? If so I shall be impressed.
    3. Intersting as your observations are they are wholly irrelevant to the point I was making.
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  10. #9  
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    Western countries need immigrants because they have non-replenishing birthrates. The choice is either to watch your population shrink and your economy stagnate or allow in immigrants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Western countries need immigrants because they have non-replenishing birthrates. The choice is either to watch your population shrink and your economy stagnate or allow in immigrants.
    In the UK, since we are all descendants of immigrants who came here at some time after the ice melted I don't see what the issue is. Does it matter whether my ancestor walked across before the straits of Dover were breached, or I arrived last week from Gdansk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    In the UK, since we are all descendants of immigrants who came here at some time after the ice melted I don't see what the issue is. Does it matter whether my ancestor walked across before the straits of Dover were breached, or I arrived last week from Gdansk?
    I agree entirely, although I'm 1/8 native the rest of my ancestors had all immigrated to Canada from the UK in the last 200 years. Add to that that my earliest ancestor in Canada came to take over land confiscated by the Crown from French farmers, my ancestors quite literally did usurp the culture living there before them.
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    Im 100% pro immigration just not illegal immigration
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    If your rationale for being opposed to illegal immigration is that illegal immigrants sponge off the community I suggest you revisit your reasoning. It is possible to arrive at the right answer from the wrong premises.
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    Currently many Europeans are concerned that their cultures are being wiped out by immigrants.There arouse many parties who are trying to stop immigration.But why not purchase an Island and not create a country for people of specific culture there?
    Stanley; Every culture worries about their own traditions, way of life, usually in connection with passing on any perceived benefits to their children, other family members, friend and like minded associates. It's a natural emotion often driven by religion or politics and can be from either direction in ideology from the norm. The problem is, that each generation has and always will have different ideas on what that norm, should be and how to obtain the results.

    It seems those parties can't get majority of votes in any
    European country.I don't want to tell that I support some party,but just curious.
    Personally I don't mind expressing my 'Conservative' values/attitude and the principles, I believe my National Government was formed, to me that is what being an American should be, which ever side the political spectrum a person falls. I feel it's almost a duty and believe (hope) if I had been born in England, Spain, Germany, Russia, India or anyplace else, it would be no less a duty or obligation to address the issues, I felt were important, to the very limits of the laws I live under. This is important; To emphasize the forming of a Country as a base, while not religious myself, this Country was formed by Religious people, it still is a Christian Nation and is part of the culture. To deny that or to condemn that or try to change or influence that, to me would invalidate the entire concept.

    The entire Industrialized World, is coping with tough economic times right now, has in the recent past and probably will again many times in the future. The pendulum is always swinging from one extreme to another for any society, but I suspect it's not anything close to what other periods in time have been to extreme. Your party affiliation will gain power again and it will then be up to you and those like minded to actually effect change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If your rationale for being opposed to illegal immigration is that illegal immigrants sponge off the community I suggest you revisit your reasoning. It is possible to arrive at the right answer from the wrong premises.
    My rationale is that it is illegal. Is that good enough?
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    1. Such options are not currently available.
    2. I am unable to access the url at present. Are you telling me that if offers solutions to providing hotel staff and office cleaners? If so I shall be impressed.
    1)Economic power of a country doesn't depend on it's size.For example,Switzerland is small but is in control of huge part of world money reserves.

    2)What is concerning to population shrinking I don't
    see why developed countries can't switch to artificial reproduction.It's not entirely impossible task,completely legal and all necessary technologies
    already exist.

    3)Technologies of remote labor are quite in reach of feasibility.Oversea worker needs to be equipped with
    virtual reality helmet and gloves or entire suit (5.000$) and will remotely connected to robot which will copy his moves (20.000 $).I don't see why it can't be used for hotel work or office cleaning.No problem whatever.

    4)Why not allow those people who are against of immigration to create their own state?Let all those "evil racists" go on some island and all the problem will be solved.
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    You don't happen to read a lot of Ayn Rand do you?

    Switzerland is not a powerful country, it's not even in the top 10 richest.

    People aren't infertile, they don't want to have children, despite government incentives.

    The third thing is nonsense, besides not being technologically feasible today, the West is not in need of more outsourcing of labour. My god, I couldn't think of a more apt example of the Marxist notion of alienating the worker from the product of their labour.
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    You don't happen to read a lot of Ayn Rand do you? Rolling Eyes
    No I didn't.What is the subject?

    Switzerland is not a powerful country, it's not even in the top 10 richest.
    I didn't hear that Swiss would be unhappy to live in their country.

    People aren't infertile, they don't want to have children, despite government incentives.
    Nothing prevents government or some political party concerned to do the following:

    1)Purchase sexual cells form healthy men and women in their country.
    2)Hire millions of surrogate mothers in third world countries.If I no make mistake it costs about 1.000 $
    per woman.(Not very huge expense).
    3)After children birth place them in highly sophisticated and very comfortable boarding schools
    where those children would be grown in spirit of intellectual development.

    And also I think that if in some developed countries people would be obligated by law to have two children
    majority of people would not revolt just because of it.
    Those government incentives are just not quite sufficient.
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    seriously aritificial what is even the point of having kids that way it just seems stupid when there is plenty of people who want kids its not our problem if nigerians want more kids
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  21. #20  
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    It seems that somebody need to take lessons of expressing himself in grammatically and logically correct way...
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    You don't happen to read a lot of Ayn Rand do you? Rolling Eyes
    No I didn't.What is the subject?

    Switzerland is not a powerful country, it's not even in the top 10 richest.
    I didn't hear that Swiss would be unhappy to live in their country.

    People aren't infertile, they don't want to have children, despite government incentives.
    Nothing prevents government or some political party concerned to do the following:

    1)Purchase sexual cells form healthy men and women in their country.
    2)Hire millions of surrogate mothers in third world countries.If I no make mistake it costs about 1.000 $
    per woman.(Not very huge expense).
    3)After children birth place them in highly sophisticated and very comfortable boarding schools
    where those children would be grown in spirit of intellectual development.

    And also I think that if in some developed countries people would be obligated by law to have two children
    majority of people would not revolt just because of it.
    Those government incentives are just not quite sufficient.
    Now we've gone from Atlas Shrugged to Brave New World.

    I happen to be a stickler for social liberty and keeping the government out of the bedrooms of the state and especially out of the wombs of the state.
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    Now we've gone from Atlas Shrugged to Brave New World.
    I would be glad to see a times when our world will become new and brave.It seems not to be the place that we're living now.
    It seems to be scientifically plausible that many human
    traits,including important mental traits are inherited.
    It doesn't necessary concern to race question.And if
    people with higher intelligence and education have tendency to have less children,well below reproduction
    level,I just don't see a way for humanity to develop if it
    will not change a reproduction technology.
    For example in Germany 40% of woman with higher education don't have children at all.Similar tendencies could be observed in most of countries (including some
    third world countries).Developed countries may accept
    immigrants but what humanity in whole (in the hole) are going to do
    when inherently clever people will extinct throughout the world?What we will get is new Middle Ages and will not get to Mars in next millennium.
    And it all sounds extremely silly in a times when such
    things as human immortality and space colonization are in within reach.Maybe you believe that humanity deserve to extinct but it doesn't have any relation to human rights and New Brave World critics.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If your rationale for being opposed to illegal immigration is that illegal immigrants sponge off the community I suggest you revisit your reasoning. It is possible to arrive at the right answer from the wrong premises.
    My rationale is that it is illegal. Is that good enough?
    Not for me.
    It also wasn't good enough for the Founding Fathers.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    It seems that somebody need to take lessons of expressing himself in grammatically and logically correct way...
    Never mind. Eventually you will get the hang of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    And if people with higher intelligence and education have tendency to have less (sic) children,well below reproduction level,I just don't see a way for humanity to develop if it will not change a reproduction technology..
    This is ignorant. Literally.
    Intelligence generally tends towards a norm. Most 'smart parents' have kids who are dumber than them. Most 'dumb parents' have kids that are smarter than them. There is no evidence that higher reproductive rates of the less intelligent leads to a decline in overall human intelligence. On the contrary, inasmuch as IQ tests measure intelligence, the average intelligence appears to be increasing.

    If you know of contrary evidence to this please share it with us.

    In th elight of your flawed premise the rest of your post rates only as waffle - sincere and well meaning, I have no doubt, but waffle nonetheless.
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  26. #25  
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    There is no evidence that higher reproductive rates of the less intelligent leads to a decline in overall human intelligence.
    Apparently yes!
    Sorry,but if you believe that intelligence is not inherited and therefore there is no genes of intelligence you are follower of an alternative science!
    By the way,did you train you pet monkey to go in university?
    There is no evidence,as you said, that clever
    parents have tendency to have children which dumber than they are.If both parents have dominant genes of high intelligence there is no way how they could have children dumber than they are.Unless they will strike head of their child with something heavy,unless there is no disease or mutation.In real life there often recessive genes,and not both parents may be clever,
    or some of them might not be inherently clever but just
    "well educated".The last massive attempt to disprove
    genetics (the whore of bourgeois science) was attempted in Stalin's Soviet Union by Trofim Lysenko
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko
    Since then his teaching was mentioned as example of
    government sponsored,politically motivated false science.Sorry,but I don't believe in any other similar
    "studies" as well.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    There is no evidence that higher reproductive rates of the less intelligent leads to a decline in overall human intelligence.
    Apparently yes!
    .
    Excellent. You will therefore have no trouble providing this evidence with refrences to appropriate text books or peer reviewed journals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    Sorry,but if you believe that intelligence is not inherited and therefore there is no genes of intelligence you are follower of alternate science!
    I dare say if I believed that I would be a follower of psedoscience, not alternate science. Please identify where in my posts I declare, implicitly or explicitly, that I believe intelligence does not contan a genetic component.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    SThere is no evidence,as you said, that clever
    parents have tendency to have children which dumber than they are.If both parents have dominant genes of high intelligence there is no way how they could have children dumber than they are..
    I see. So you are the one following alternative science. You quite ignore the part played by the environment in fostering intelligence, you disregard the emergence of intelligence through the interplay of several genes, and you seem ignorant of the role played by evo-devo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    The last massive attempt to disprove
    genetics (the whore of bourgeois science) was attempted in Stalin's Soviet Union by Trofim Lysenko
    Thank you for your lecture on Lysenko. It is good to know that education is not entirely lacking in your generation.

    I must also compliment you on your exemplary demonstration of the use of strawman tactics in debating. I'm quite overcome by the clarity and precision with which you have entirely missed the point.

    Don't forget those textbook or referred journal citations.
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    I must also compliment you on your exemplary demonstration of the use of strawman tactics in debating.
    Well,I don't know about what to argue with people who
    believe that there is such thing as "norm of human intelligence".This is definitely Stalinism!

    I happen to be a stickler for social liberty and keeping the government out of the bedrooms of the state and especially out of the wombs of the state.
    But how could you prohibit to people sell their sexual
    cells to anyone wishing,even political parties?
    I think that such prohibition would be exactly intrusion
    of government in private life of people.Government
    not necessarily need to be become authoritarian to
    implement some reproduction techniques.It could be done by rich parties,private organizations etc.Currently it's completely legal.
    People aren't infertile, they don't want to have children, despite government incentives.
    This is not always a case.For example I would agree
    to have 1.000.000.000 children.If governments of developed countries will sponsor those children I agree to sell billions of my sexual cells.One of the condition of this process will be my ability to fertilize as many woman as possible in natural way... :-D
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514
    Well,I don't know about what to argue with people who
    believe that there is such thing as "norm of human intelligence".This is definitely Stalinism!
    I take this rejoinder to be an admission that you are unable to provide evidence (with references to appropriate text books or peer reviewed journals) that higher reproductive rates of the less intelligent leads to a decline in overall human intelligence.

    Again I ask you to please identify where in my posts I declare, implicitly or explicitly, that I believe intelligence does not contan a genetic component.

    Some further questions:
    1. Do you accept that humans display a quality called intelligence?
    2. If so, do you accept that intelligence varies from individual to individual?
    3. If so, do you accept that this quality can to some degree be quantified?
    4. That being the case, do you realise that any quality that can be quantified and that varies within a population must, by definition, have a norm?
    5. Do you now realise how much of a fool you are mking yourself appear to be?
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