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About LinkBacksFor some reason, this doesn't make the news here in the USA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7078730.ece
March 28th, 2010, 05:43 PM
For some reason, this doesn't make the news here in the USA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7078730.ece
I have noticed that USA doesn't seem to get much in the way of the World News. Having said that, I read the paper every weekday and this is the first I've heard of this.
We get plenty of world news, but I don't think that's the point Harold was making in his oblique way.
People dying in Africa doesn't make the news whether they are black or white.
The recent slaughter of Nigerian Christians by Nigerian Muslims didn't make the news either.
Not troubled by that story.
One would presume that's because you are not there having to defend yourself. I have an online friend who lives in SA on a farm and he's had it broken into on several occasions, usually with men armed with large guns and magazines. He's had to go to great lengths to protect him and his wife, and come to think of it, I haven't heard from him in quite a while.Originally Posted by Chronman
Anyway, your lack of trouble doesn't mean there is none, I guess is my point.
The OP trolls for racism.
I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying these murders are not racially fueled?
I think that people feel a much increased uneasiness by crimes/discrimination committed against others due to the victims' birth/childhood circumstances (over which they obviously had no control), especially when those crimes or discriminations are chronic, widespread and/or the norm or when perpetrated in the extreme (ie, murder, rape, mutilation, etc). Such circumstances being, for example, place of birth/childhood, wealth/poverty, social class, illegitimacy, language, nationality, ethnicity, skin color, religion, gender, birth order, etc.
This unease is raised at least an order of magnitude when the targeted 'group' is one to which one belongs.
Actually, on and off over the years, this has made American Headlines and I have NO doubt been the lead story in Britain many times, where most these farmers have heritage. American Media, however is in a constant struggle with 'Race Relations' in this country, both based on political correctness and activist groups who getting upset with any portrayed news, where blacks are seemingly racist themselves. You will see and hear this, as 'Double Standards', which is generally the argument used.
I recall, when Nelson Mandela, was released from prison and the controversy over his practiced philosophy/ideology that got him in prison to begin with. Yet moved from the ranks of revolutionary terrorist (today's definition), to President of SA and honored in many Societies, while in the meantime virtually all industry moved out of SA. It never made sense to me...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_MandelaMandela described the move to armed struggle as a last resort; years of increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had not and could not achieve any progress.[10][35] ....
Mandela has received many South African, foreign and international honors, including the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 (which was shared with Frederik Willem de Klerk),[162] the Order of Merit and the Order of St. John from Queen Elizabeth II and the Presidential Medal of Freedom from George W. Bush.[163][164] In July 2004, the city of Johannesburg bestowed its highest honour on Mandela by granting him the freedom of the city at a ceremony in Orlando, Soweto.[165]
Now as for Racist, I'm not convinced. In Cuba, for instance Castro confiscated all farming (most business) around 1960, including a large King Ranch holding, many US Firms (Gambling, the big thing,then) and properties of many Cubans, and other Countries over the centuries have wiped out their own peoples holdings, not to mention the Allied redrawing National Territory Lines, after WWII. Racist, in my mind would need to be because of color, and outside the US (definition), I'm not sure it's the prime issue. An example here, would be the current US President, in believing helping poor people, "gain their just dues", will help more Blacks, possibly Hispanics, but that in itself, is NOT racist.
Right of ownership of property can very in any Country. In Mexico, for instance an Americans right to ownership, dies with the death of that person the agreement as been made or has no virtual right to own in the first place. When a person, nationalist or foreigner, to the current or possible future government, assumes ownership, it's contingent on their laws, including what become laws, this includes the US no less as Governments can assume ownership of lands and property, where today 30% of all US Land, is in fact owned by the Federal Government.
Not trolling by any definition I’m aware of. I inferred, mistakenly perhaps, that Harold was commenting on our supposedly liberal media’s selective reporting. This is, after all, the Politics section.The OP trolls for racism.
BTW Jackson:It’s my understanding that most of the farmers have Dutch, Belgian and German heritage. The Brits came later and were not into farming so much.Britain …where most these farmers have heritage
That, and it is related to the politics of South Africa where members of the ANC are singing a song called "Shoot the Boer."
We used to be interested in the politics of SA, back in the apartheid days. Nowadays, not so much.
Bunbury; I suppose you could be correct, not really important to my post. However, I believe English is a First Language and the English Influence during the 18th-19th Centuries were instrumental in who was around later. Anyway a quick google check on British newspaper and the 'White Farmer' issue is loaded with articles, many current, unlike anything in the US or I suspect Germany.
Unlike other members of the British Empire, Law primarily remained Dutch and I believe are still part of the British Commonwealth (Singapore Declaration, 1971), setting out certain core political and trade principles.
http://www.llrx.com/features/southafrica.htmWhen the British took possession of the Cape in 1806 they did not impose their substantive legal system in a formal way. Instead, it was decided that the local Roman-Dutch law would remain in force. However, English procedural law was adopted and this had a tendency to influence substantive provisions. Furthermore, Roman-Dutch Law did not always cater for the requirements of the modern society that developed during the 19th century, necessitating legislative innovations, which were often based on English Acts and interpreted using relevant English precedent. The advocates and judges of the superior courts were usually trained in England and tended to rely on their English treatises. As a result of such factors, the Roman-Dutch law of the Cape Colony was overlaid with a heavy English law influence. The Cape legal system was, in turn, followed by the British colony in Natal, and also, in many respects, by the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (the Transvaal) and the Oranjevrijstaat (the Orange Free State) - the Boer Republics established by Dutch trekkers in the mid-nineteenth century.
Maybe KALSTER, can enlighten us...
Yes it's repulsive when political figureheads in a democratic country use inflammatory words that could be interpreted as incitement to kill their opponents.
Oh... Bunbury... Of course the term "reload" simply means to go out to the polls and vote responsibly... dontcha know.Yes it's repulsive when political figureheads in a democratic country use inflammatory words that could be interpreted as incitement to kill their opponents.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...-slime-machine
That's an idiotic comparison and totally off topic.
I don't understand what you mean either!I don't quite understand what you mean.
No, its because I don't care much for the troubles of whites who're complaining about land that I don't think they (or their ancestors) acquired rightfully.
That's just silly, at what point in time does squatting on a piece of land become rightfully yours. I'm pretty sure the African groups living there when the Dutch arrived were not the first, and won't be the last, to ever live there.
The fact that you think it's justifiable to kill someone for something their grandfather did disgusts me. You don't happen to be a sociopath do you?
Chronman, I'd be curious to know what piece of real estate you currently occupy, and how far back you can trace the deed. Even if you happen to belong to the correct race, matching up to your place of origin, you could still be descended from some conquering tribe. If so, then you would deserve to be murdered in your home, then, wouldn't you?
It seems completely on topic, one group saying that one sort of violence is OK, another group saying no it isn't, but that their brand of violence is OK.
http://mediamatters.org/columns/201003300001
Really? Sarah Palin's "reload" comment is equivalent to people singing "Kill the Boer" when thousands of Boers have actually been killed?It seems completely on topic, one group saying that one sort of violence is OK, another group saying no it isn't, but that their brand of violence is OK.
http://mediamatters.org/columns/201003300001
The word "reload" can have a literal meaning or a figurative meaning. The literal meaning would be if literal bullets had been fired from literal guns which were then being refilled with literal ammunition. The figurative meaning would be to prepare to repeat something that had been done before, such as win a congressional election. Get it?
The issues happening here with violence among conservatives extends far beyond Palin and her reload comment (a small sample of which was also presented in the TDS video clip I shared in my response to bunbury), but I think we're getting dangerously off-topic.
Did you read the column?Really? Sarah Palin's "reload" comment is equivalent to people singing "Kill the Boer" when thousands of Boers have actually been killed?It seems completely on topic, one group saying that one sort of violence is OK, another group saying no it isn't, but that their brand of violence is OK.
http://mediamatters.org/columns/201003300001
The word "reload" can have a literal meaning or a figurative meaning. The literal meaning would be if literal bullets had been fired from literal guns which were then being refilled with literal ammunition. The figurative meaning would be to prepare to repeat something that had been done before, such as win a congressional election. Get it?
In what sense? Violence and potential violence of one group against another in the US has soared recently:
http://toledoblade.com/article/20100...00412/0/news13The Montgomery, Ala.-based Southern Poverty Law Center documented a 244 percent increase in active "Patriot" groups between 2008 and 2009. Numbers jumped from 149 in 2008 to 512 last year. Among those groups, the number of paramilitary militias jumped from 42 to 127 in the same time period.
Do you think racism has any part in this? Having elected a black man (Bravo, USians!) to the WH, and a 'radical socialist secret kenyan muslim' one to boot, surely the rise can in part be traced to deep seated fears amongst some portion of the populace. Much like in SA.
And Harold considers the comparison ridiculous. If he is representative of the right wing, that seems a bad mix.
Harold, the 'reload' comment, on this side of the pond, sounds distressingly representatvie of the broader rhetoric espoused by your crazies. Do you not see this.
No.
I sure do... A lot of people do. These fundie right-wingers remind me of what I read of the growth of Fascism in 30s Germany, especially with the harsh ingroup/outgroup us/them mentalities being continually reinforced at seemingly every turn.
I don't think it made the news here for the same reason that the murders of blacks in South Africa by whites never makes the news, it's life there. Americans do not wish to be troubled with other peoples' needs unless they somehow come around to influence life in America in the end.
The only time international news matters is when there is oil involved or when the United States is insulted. Other than that all you will here about are stupid little stories about pets, missing girls, and speeches taken out of context.
Don't get me wrong what is happening in SA is a travesty but there is really no way for people to "just get along". I'm guessing that healing from the apartheid will take a long time and for it to happen in our generations is very unlikely.
Blacks are being murdered by whites? Do you have a reference for that? Apartheid used to make the news here every day, back at that time, so I don't think you have a valid point.
Though this issue doesn't see as much coverage as I'd like, it isn't entirely absent from US news. This is the top story on CNN's website this morning:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/af...ex.html?hpt=T1
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100404/...te_supremacistVENTERSDORP, South Africa – A top member of a South African white supremacist group says the slaying of their leader is "a declaration of war" by blacks against whites...
Police said he was bludgeoned to death Saturday by two of his farm workers over wages. Terreblanche's followers on Sunday blamed a fiery youth leader for spreading hate speech that led to his killing, a charge the youth leader denied.
The above broke yesterday at the International Level, and there was very little or no coverage in US Media, to note the opening comments, this thread, not that I see or read everything.
The article is short and to the point, but what was interesting to me, as usual, were the comments. I have been noticing this more and more over at least ten years and to some degree for 40 years of so on US issues, where there are becoming less and less centrist comments and currently, for the most part, extreme comments in both directions. If my analysis is correct, that's not a good thing....
The base race demographic in SA are 80% Black, 10% white, others accounting for the remainder, there won't be much of a war, if indeed declared. However I personally, still have trouble relating this issue to race itself or racism, if you prefer, rather the "haves" and "have not's", basing it a great deal on what's going on in the US. Here we have a great many of each race (white/black/latino), that are less well off than others of the same race, each trending toward socialism in their voting practices. The only current exception, would be the Obama Election, where some States did vote 98+% for Obama (likely some form of pride), but he also won a majority of other demographics, not black, especially in districts you could say have more 'not's'....
strange really how this story fills me with conflicting emotions : on the one hand, Eugene Terreblanche was a nasty piece of work, and i've never had much time for him or his views
on the other hand, if the killings were politically motivated rather than coming from personal disagreements, then one must hope that this doesn't herald a new era of elimination of political opponents through murder
More than 3,000 white farmers have been murdered since the the end of apartheid in 1994
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8603048.stm
In my view, the vast majority of these murders have been politically motivated, as is the case of white farmers murdered in Zimbabwe.
marnix; I don't know much about 'Eugene Terreblanche' and can only take the media word for it, that he was killed over an argument for pay, that is a just or unjust squabble in the first place. I have found, especially living down here near our border with Mexico, most my life, that employers and the people in general are benevolent toward those illegally entering the country, in some cases to a fault. Employers, that I've known are well respected by those that work for them and am inclined to think 'Terreblanche' was killed for other than a pay dispute, as you and Dave do. Then there are some simply bad people... one similar case here;
http://www.redcounty.com/arizona-ran...s-mexico/38211An Arizona rancher who was a fixture in the community was brutally murdered by an alleged illegal immigrant on Saturday night. The Arizona/Mexico border rancher, Robert Krentz met a cruel end after he went out in the middle of the night to investigate strange noises.
Whatever number of farmers, think 30k or so, that are left in SA, I don't they have ANY influence in the Government and would be no contest for surely hundreds of thousands, that would like to see them GONE.
africa is the most racist continent in the world! There are whole tribes dedicated to nothing but genocide.
Did you really intend that as an insightful comment? Do you plan to build a reputation here for side-tracking discussions with drivel?
Im sorry.
My point is though some times im indirect is that it is not simply these white farmers but this happens every where in Africa regardless of race (though it is an irony)
i happened to live in south africa in the late eighties when the signs of the end of white rule became gradually more obvious, also the time when Terreblanche and his rabble army became more vocal
i don't know him personally, nor have i ever met him, but he struck me as the type of comical figure the way Hitler was portrayed in the 1920s - give him some real power and see the monster break loose
from what i've heard he treated Ventersdorp as his personal fiefdom, and his treatment of and physical violence against non-whites was such an abomination that you could say he had it coming - still, the fact that it happened, for whatever reason, fills me with deep unease
It just makes me sad that they're killing the educated people. How is their economy supposed to function after those people are gone? People put pride over their personal identity, be it race, religion, national heritage... whatever.... over economics, and then they wonder why they end up poor.
And, of course, we all know they're going to turn around and become terrorists after the crash. They'll have to blame us, because they can't blame themselves for their own stupidity. That's where terrorist cells get most of their recruits: from disillusioned poor people, who often come from societies that did stupid things and fully deserve to be poor because of it. It's like, on the one hand, people will think we should have prevented it, and on the other, they don't think we have the right to prevent it.
Astonishing.No.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ymurray-threatCharles Alan Wilson, a 64-year-old Washington man, has been charged with threatening a federal official for allegedly leaving making threatening phone calls to Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) over her support for the health bill, the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Washington announced today.
The complaint alleges that Wilson called Murray's office multiple times between March 22 and April 4. In one message, he allegedly said that Murray "had a target on her back." In another, he allegedly said, "I want to (expletive) kill you."
The press release from the U.S. attorney continues: "Wilson discussed assisting others in an attempt to kill the senator. Wilson's threats were in response to the passage of the Health Care Reform Act."
Terreblanche does not strike me as an educated man.
And, of course, we all know they're going to turn around and become terrorists after the crash.
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