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Thread: 9/11 Betrayal of an Ally

  1. #1 9/11 Betrayal of an Ally 
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    Ha! No it's not another conspiracy theory. I'm going to talk about plain events between Canada & the United States.



    I live in Vancouver, Canada, and the first sign of something wrong was jumbo jets circling overhead in holding patterns. A few fighter jets screamed by. An acquaintance had the scoop: "It's the terrorists! They're crashing passenger planes into skyscrapers! It's a massive coordinated attack!"

    "Whose?" I asked.

    "The Islamic fanatics, they think."

    "No, I mean whose skyscrapers?"

    "Our skyscrapers. It's war. They're crazy. They hate us."

    It didn't seem right. We had a view of the downtown skyline from the back yard. Some hours of suspense as news trickled in, and trickled off to interpretation. I predicted the Americans would bomb the crap out of some hapless country (like, woo, Pong's a political genius).

    The reason there were so many jets over Vancouver, was that when it became clear multiple planes were being hijacked to ram buildings, all air traffic over the US and flying into the US was diverted to Canadian airspace: Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver, all the big cities with international airports. That's what happened when the chips were down. We didn't volunteer to take those planes. We were told: this is what's happening now, deal with it. Anyway one thinks about it, think it through and it's wrong. Those planes were believed to have suicide bombers aboard.

    I'd like to think Canada wouldn't do that to an ally under any circumstances. Well we didn't send the planes back did we?

    Americans may have detected some chill from the north after 9/11.



    I haven't remarked on this until now. I was waiting for America to say something. Some stirring in the media, maybe an official statement. Betraying an ally is kinda serious, isn't it?


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  3. #2  
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    Wow. I never thought about it. Granted that most terrorists don't consider Canadian cities to be prime targets, given their overall political objective, but still...
    That really was unfair of us.

    Wouldn't want some over eager suicide bomber, who now realizes he can't hit the target he wants to redirect his rage at Canadians.


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  4. #3 Re: 9/11 Betrayal of an Ally 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    H
    The reason there were so many jets over Vancouver, was that when it became clear multiple planes were being hijacked to ram buildings, all air traffic over the US and flying into the US was diverted to Canadian airspace: Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver, all the big cities with international airports. That's what happened when the chips were down. We didn't volunteer to take those planes. We were told: this is what's happening now, deal with it.
    Do you have a reference for this?
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  5. #4  
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    Chronology you mean?

    Wikipedia:
    9:45 EDT: United States airspace is shut down. No civilian aircraft are allowed to take off, and all aircraft in flight are ordered to land at the nearest airport as soon as possible. All international flights headed for the U.S. are redirected to Canada.

    History.com:
    FAA Administrator Jane Garvey sent a message to all international flights headed to the United States. Turn around or land someplace else. That someplace else, in most cases, was Canada.

    NAV Canada:
    10:43 EDT "Due to extraordinary circumstances and for reasons of safety, all departure services from NAV CANADA served aerodromes are ceased effective immediately. Due to closures of U.S. airports and airspace all National Traffic will be recovered in Canada."

    * NAV CANADA had been instructed by Transport Canada to avoid, if possible, redirecting planes to large urban areas such as Toronto, Montreal or Ottawa, because of security concerns.

    * All U.S.-registered carriers had been directed by the FAA, through their respective airline dispatchers, to land at the nearest available airport.


    Note that 10:43 EDT is the first action taken by Canada, to stop all takeoffs. Prior to this, planes bound for US destinations were taking off. That's how "out of the loop" we were.

    I don't want to pick through 9/11 chronologies anymore than that. I think it's clear that planes were being redirected to Canada, not at Canada's initiative or option. Because I've never heard a word of dialogue about the ethical/political meaning of that I'm opening the dialogue. How does it look to Americans?
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  6. #5  
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    Oh, please. That's pretty weak.
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  7. #6  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
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    Planes coming from Europe that were less than halfway across the Atlantic were directed to turn around and go back to Europe. I don't hear any whining coming from Europe. Rather an understanding that an ally was under attack and they would cooperate in any way possible.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    Planes coming from Europe that were less than halfway across the Atlantic were directed to turn around and go back to Europe. I don't hear any whining coming from Europe. Rather an understanding that an ally was under attack and they would cooperate in any way possible.
    For which we were rewarded by being treated as canon fodder/target practise for the following 8 years. Just kidding.
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  9. #8 Re: 9/11 Betrayal of an Ally 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I predicted the Americans would bomb the crap out of some hapless country (like, woo, Pong's a political genius).
    This "hapless" country could have avoided armed conflict by complying with demands for extradition of Al Qaeda members and verifyably closing terrorist training camps. They instead chose to shield mass murderers leaving the US led coalition with no appropriate recourse. Boo hoo.

    Throw about silly comments like this, and you may expect a retort.
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  10. #9 Re: 9/11 Betrayal of an Ally 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kukhri
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I predicted the Americans would bomb the crap out of some hapless country (like, woo, Pong's a political genius).
    This "hapless" country could have avoided armed conflict by complying with demands for extradition of Al Qaeda members and verifyably closing terrorist training camps. They instead chose to shield mass murderers leaving the US led coalition with no appropriate recourse. Boo hoo.

    Throw about silly comments like this, and you may expect a retort.
    Actually I wasn't thinking of Afghanistan in particular. Remember at that time sporadic bombing raids on Iraq were hardly making news, and Clinton had established that the US would launch surprise missile strikes into weak states like Sudan. So I was just as much expecting the target to be Syria, Yemen, Somalia, etc. *At the time.*

    Anyway, the point of this thread is to poll American sentiment regarding Canada/US alliance in times of panic, and "when the chips are down" so to speak. What executive decisions are acceptable on each member's part?
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  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    Actually, if I remember correctly, most of those planes ended up in places like Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia rather than anywhere near the larger cities. I don't remember the skies over Montreal being blacked out by swarms of jets...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    Planes coming from Europe that were less than halfway across the Atlantic were directed to turn around and go back to Europe. I don't hear any whining coming from Europe. Rather an understanding that an ally was under attack and they would cooperate in any way possible.
    Anti-American sentiment in Europe is hardly unheard of lol.
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  12. #11 Re: 9/11 Betrayal of an Ally 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Actually I wasn't thinking of Afghanistan in particular. Remember at that time sporadic bombing raids on Iraq were hardly making news, and Clinton had established that the US would launch surprise missile strikes into weak states like Sudan. So I was just as much expecting the target to be Syria, Yemen, Somalia, etc. *At the time.*
    These events did not happen at the time of the 9/11 attacks. The cruise missile strikes in Sudan occurred in 1998, and whether or not Sudan is a "weak state" is irrelevant. The target was believed to be a chemical weapon manufacturing facility masquerading as a pharamceutical plant.
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  13. #12  
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    Kukhri, I don't know why you're arguing with the common perception, which is all I'm claiming to have had. Are you saying that the US was not believed able and willing to fire missiles into weak states, at its own discretion, without notice?

    Well, however you engage this thread answers my question: "How does it look to Americans?" Even that you avoid looking at it. :wink:
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  14. #13  
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    Common perception has no place here. We have time to do competent research. My intention is to correct inaccurate statements that painted an unfair image of these events. I have not commented on the original topic because this is the first I've heard of it and I'm not sure we're hearing the whole story.

    Forgive my combative tone.
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  15. #14  
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    As an American, it looks like a helpful, reasonable, and logical approach to a difficult logistics issue. American airspace is reasonably shut down meaning that airports and controllers have a real problem coordinating landing activity. Adding more planes to the problem makes it much worse. So distribute the burden to as many airports in the area as possible as long as the air traffic can be coordinated. That would be Canada. Realize that only planes with confirmed scheduled pilots and confirmed command and control on board were allowed to get near a city, any city.

    I don't believe those who sent planes to Canada believed they were sending terrorists to Canada. I believe they thought they were sending planes with innocent people on board who needed to land safely and quickly so that they could free up space for planes that might be low on fuel. I believe that the controllers figured that only planes who did not check in and who's crew could not be validated harbored terrorists. Those planes were not sent to Canada. Those planes were scheduled for a visit by fighter jets.

    I believe (but I don't know) that Canada's representatives were asked to help and agreed to help. I don't believe (but I don't know if) they were forced to do something against their will, I don't believe many in Canada would have refused to help.

    I personally appreciate Canada's support for that and all they have done since.
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  16. #15  
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    Besides the fact that Air defense in Canada and the US is handled by NORAD, which is a join US and Canadian operation.

    Also, I don't think Canadian perceptions of the USA have ever reached a higher point than they were after 9/11. That was the year most people were highly supportive of the Americans. It wasn't until the Iraq war, which Canada refused to participate in without a UN mandate, that anti-American sentiment started to increase.

    Even so, I find most Canadians like to bitch and moan about the Americans, but deep down we know the Europeans are oh so much worse.
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  17. #16  
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    911 is a total bullshit controlled-asset/stand-down/northwoodsish-inside-job, but for Canada to take air traffic the US didnt want is a no brainer and a non issue Ive never heard a peep about before.

    "flight 543 from Amsterdam, we know you cant land in the US but due to the minor inconvenience it might entail we suggest you crash land in the atlantic ocean instead, thank you and have a pleasant crash" -not
    In all reports I saw Canadians welcomed stranded passengers with opened arms and free improvised accomodations when required(schools/guests at volunteer's house).


    Also, I don't think Canadian perceptions of the USA have ever reached a higher point than they were after 9/11. That was the year most people were highly supportive of the Americans. It wasn't until the Iraq war, which Canada refused to participate in without a UN mandate, that anti-American sentiment started to increase.
    correct
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