Thread: US Obama Administration, doing fine or maybe not..

Early in the US 2008 Presidential Campaign process, I noticed an unexpected admiration of Obama and his proposed policies for a future American policy in World affairs. Closing Gitmo, ending the war in Iraq, chasing down Osama, Climate Control Policy, discontent with NAFTA and other trade agreements, along with a host of policy the should have made no sense to the World Community. For the Americans, he promised change, based on HOPE, which never made sense in my mind and that change would come from redistribution of wealth, taking down to some degree the Capitalist/Free Market System, the very source for US Government income, the source for revenue, needed for the proposed social changes.

My question to you from Europe or outside the US, was that first impression of mine incorrect or if correct, is that admiration for Mr. Obama, still being upheld by your media, your associates (family/friends) and personal opinions, or has it shifted to any degree? For Americans, is the change, the transparency of Government, no tax increases for any family earning less than 250k/p/year, the 2010 Budget with all it's pork, the Stimulus Package, the Government projections for deficits, Cash for klunckers, 35 czars- unelected and not subject to Congressional approval/oversight, what you expected or has any of this, changed your personal viewpoint? I realize it's not really fair judging any administration on 9/10 months for achievement or failure, but no other administration (possible exceptions, Lincoln or FDR) has so much been put on the table, likely effecting you, your family and generations into the future, where ever you live...IMO.

Barack Hussein Obama is most certainly an enigma. Where was he born ? Is he a Muslim ? 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, for what ? He is a lawyer ( enough said ) IMHO he is going to bring America to its knees, and the rest of the Free World too. I do hope that a second term does not come his way. BTW media opinion has shifted against Obama, apart from Left Wing Leaning Institutions like the BBC, who ironically are funded by the tax payer here in the UK.

Indeed anyone that still had not figured out that the corrupt US election spectacles are a fraud, or that Bush was a bumbling figurehead and was replaced by a better PR figurehead, should start wondering

The Treasury Dept was controlled by wall Street under Clinton, under Bush, and still the same with Obama
Bush had Robert Gates, Obama has Gates
Bush in Iraq for oil, Obama in Iraq in Iraq for Oil

And only the Republicans stupid enough to hope Palin will run for President can possibly think Palin would be anything else than a clueless postergirl figurehead told what to say to justify policies decided by others out of the spotlight

Oh and the Nobel Peace prize is a joke without a shread of credibility :P

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Barack Hussein Obama is most certainly an enigma. Where was he born ? Is he a Muslim ?

If you still do not know the answers to those questions, then it seems plainly obvious that the news sources you have selected are failing you and doing you a great disservice.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Barack Hussein Obama is most certainly an enigma. Where was he born ? Is he a Muslim ? 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, for what ? He is a lawyer ( enough said ) IMHO he is going to bring America to its knees, and the rest of the Free World too. I do hope that a second term does not come his way. BTW media opinion has shifted against Obama, apart from Left Wing Leaning Institutions like the BBC, who ironically are funded by the tax payer here in the UK.

Is Obama a Muslim? We don't know. All we know is that his father was a Muslim and he attended a school that required all students to be Muslin. And last week for reasons unknown he appointed an ambassador/czar to serve all Muslims en masse.

Where was he born? No one knows for sure; he refuses to show us his birth certificate.

Dave, sit back and watch his antics and highjinks on the telly. He is becoming a joke.
A sad and unfunny joke. A joke that will unravel the civilized World.

Pray. ()

Originally Posted by milum

Where was he born? No one knows for sure; he refuses to show us his birth certificate.

I'm so tired of this level of ignorance not only existing in my society, but seemingly growing and becoming more magnified each day.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp







The above was provided by the Obama campaign in June of 2008.



http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...icate-part-ii/

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_the_usa.html

inow,
You may be a Forum Professor, but that does not make you correct in your assumptions, about the level of other peoples intelligence. You may be superior, who knows, but please keep it civil.

Anyway try this, it isn`t Snopes but could be just as valid.
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/...h-certificate/

The last two links in my previous post address your concerns about it being a forgery or fraud. In short, I anticipated your next argument and it's already been rebuked. The certificate is real.

Also, as an FYI, sites like the one you posted who use big bold letters and multiple colors and all caps and lots of exclamation points should be a red flag to you that it likely is inaccurate and is probably not a trustworthy source for your information.

Finally, I'll just say... You haven't seen me being uncivil yet. Grow a thicker skin and realize that my exasperation is justified and my arguments valid and supported. The arguments I've presented thus far have not once relied on assumption or conjecture, but instead on verifiable facts and evidence.

You guys are welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts.



Last, on the above claim that he is a Muslim, I would like to say, "Who the frak cares?" Talk about bigotry... my god, man. You have only reinforced my disgust with the level of ignorance in society.

Regardless, since you do seem to think it's somehow important or even vaguely relevant here, that's another claim which is patently false:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar...ama_muslim.htm
http://isbarackobamamuslim.com/

Originally Posted by milum

Is Obama a Muslim? We don't know. All we know is that his father was a Muslim and he attended a school that required all students to be Muslin.

He attended a school which required all students to be a loosely woven cotton fabric? Awesome!

I'd rather attend a school that required all students to be the material women's panties are made out of, myself.

Originally Posted by jackson33

I noticed an unexpected admiration of Obama and his proposed policies

European enthusiasm for Obama is perfectly consistent with prevailing European attitudes so I fail to see why anyone would be surprised. Capitalism with regulation, climate policy based on science instead of ideology, respect for human rights, using tax revenues to improve lives – these understood by most Europeans to be proper components of a modern democracy. As for chasing down bin Laden, Europeans are probably somewhat bemused at why we should be spending millions chasing after an ageing diabetic terrorist who couldn’t in his wildest dreams kill as many people as our health insurance system does.

My question to you from Europe or outside the US

I’m “from” Europe, but don’t live there. Perhaps since no one from outside the US has responded to your question I can offer a second-hand response from people I know over there.

was that first impression of mine incorrect or if correct, is that admiration for Mr. Obama, still being upheld by your media, your associates (family/friends) and personal opinions, or has it shifted to any degree?

The media in Europe are if anything even less rational than here and I wouldn’t pay much attention to most of them. My wife has relatives in France. Her uncle, a retired factory manager, admires Obama tremendously, as do her other French relatives without exception. I have friends and relatives in the UK and the same is true of them, with perhaps one exception (a brother in law who was a communist in his youth, underwent a complete reversal and became an admirer of Bush, much to my sister’s chagrin – his admiration for Obama is somewhat muted). I don’t think there’s been any shift in their views.

For Americans, is the change …what you expected or has any of this, changed your personal viewpoint.

The obstructionism of the minority party goes far beyond what I expected. I look forward to Obama stepping out in front and leading, on the basis of what we, the American people, voted for.

A former British Police Officer, Neil Sankey is hunting down Obama`s birth certificate. Check this out from a British newspaper, the Malcolm X theory is interesting, and the readers comments are entertaining.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...President.html

There are a lot of people in America, the UK and Europe who do care if Obama is a Muslim, that is a fact.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

A former British Police Officer, Neil Sankey is hunting down Obama`s birth certificate.

Well, apparently he's not too bright if he hasn't found it yet. All he has to do is to read this very thread and my post above.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

There are a lot of people in America, the UK and Europe who do care if Obama is a Muslim, that is a fact.

And, as my references more than adequately demonstrated, he is not. So, good for them and self-perpetuated ignorance and bigotry.

There is nothing like a bit of bigotry to make the world go round, it is a human condition enjoyed by most people.

The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.

Why has Obama spent hundreds of thousands of dollars paying lawyers to fight the release of his Long Form?

Why does he not just request a copy from the Hawaii Department of Health?

Why does Obama lie?

I'm curious aren't you?

Evidence? Do you have any in support of your claims, milum? Or, are you content with the FUD you continue to offer baselessly?

I have just had a quick look through " Sky News " here in the UK. It has been established as a fact, that a fire destroyed much of the state records held in archives in Hawaii, including the paper copy of Obama`s birth certificate. The state authorities of Hawaii produced an electronic copy, anyone could do that.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...=searchresults

Uuhhhmmm.... No.


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_the_usa.html

FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by inow

Uuhhhmmm.... No.


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_the_usa.html

FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

Emphasis mine.

You know inow, you take the cake. You quote your point from the same article that admits...

"The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response."

You got balls.

Originally Posted by milum

Originally Posted by FactCheck Article

We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response."

So, why not ask the Hawaii DOH? You cannot use the above assertion to move on to the claim that somehow Obama is obstructing justice here. It's completely non-sequitur. It's like saying, "Because bananas are yellow, today is Sunday." One has no relation to the other.

Here... This is what you asked:

Originally Posted by milum

Why has Obama spent hundreds of thousands of dollars paying lawyers to fight the release of his Long Form?

I asked you for evidence that this is, in fact, happening and is not just some made up speculation you pulled out of your bung hole. You have yet to provide any evidence or substantiation, so I will now repeat my request...

What evidence do you have that Obama has "spent hundreds of thousands of dollars paying lawyers to fight the release of his long form?" Once we confirm that this is, in reality, happening, then we can move on to speculating about motive for doing so... but not before.

What evidence do you have for your claim? There is a huge difference between what you suggested is being done and showing a quote stating that the Hawaii DOH is not responding to requests from one organization.

I will ALSO note that your lack of access to the long form does not negate the information available to all of us on the short; information which has been reviewed by multiple independent sources and confirmed to be valid by each; information which directly and unequivocally answers the question about the location of his birth; information which is reinforced by other sources like newspaper announcements.

You're doing little more than grasping at straws while concurrently pretending that you've managed to out flank me. It's sort of fun to watch.

Originally Posted by milum

You got balls.

Yes, I sure do. Thanks for noticing. I'm also much smarter than you, and better informed, but that's not really relevant here.

Now, will you please demonstrate a bit of academic integrity and substantiate your claim with some reasonable evidence? If you'd like to keep talking about my sex organs, that's super, but it does nothing to bolster the position for which you are here now arguing. Where's the beef?

Moderators:

Jackson asked a specific question and immediately the the trolls derailed it with asinine unrelated non-issues. I notice Jackson has not returned. I'm not surprised. Perhaps he's as disgusted as I am with the stupidity of Wilson and milum, but let Jackson speak for himself. This thread needs to be shut down.

Bunbury; I'll try to get back later today, answering your questions and others, but PLEASE MODERATORS, don't lock this thread.....

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Moderators:

Jackson asked a specific question and immediately the the trolls derailed it with asinine unrelated non-issues. I notice Jackson has not returned. I'm not surprised. Perhaps he's as disgusted as I am with the stupidity of Wilson and milum, but let Jackson speak for himself. This thread needs to be shut down.

Sorry for the role I've played in this. I just have a compulsive need to correct bullshit and misinformation, especially about something like our president's place of birth.

Perhaps the thread can be split, and the off-topic nonsense given it's own home, such that the question Jackson raised in the OP can be better focused upon?

After a quick perusal through the FactCheck info supplied by inow, I was very disappointed not to be able to view the copy of Obama`s short form birth certificate. Perhaps I do not have enough resolution, maybe I need my eyes tested, but I could not read a word on the certificate, allegedly held by the hand of FactCheck writer Joe Miller. Will someone please help me understand what is happening ?

Bunbury,
I fail to see how my opinions can be classed as stupidity just because you disagree with them, and to call for the moderators to shut down the topic because you do not like the content, smacks of censorship worthy of North Korea.

Dave - Bunbury was saying that your posts were all completely unrelated to the thread topic. He was not trying to censor you. Further, your concerns have been adequately addressed, and yet your position is unchanged. I too have a problem with that.

Either way, you needed only to look at my snopes link to get a large copy of the certificate.

If that was not large enough for you, try here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.sha...ertificate.jpg

inow,
All topics drift, that is just the nature of things. No my position has not changed, and why should it ? I will add that I have learned from reading through opinions and links provided by you and others, it is good stuff, keep it coming. I found this interesting snippet on FoxNews regarding state officials in Arizona. This thing about Obama`s birth certificate is going to run and run for a long time to come in America.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...y-citizenship/

Okay. I guess we're done here, then.

Not until jackson33 comes back.

Originally Posted by inow

I just have a compulsive need to correct bullshit and misinformation, especially about something like our president's place of birth.

Well, I understand, but most people here can recognize the BS and won't be influenced by it. So in my humble opinion it's usually better to ignore it. Besides, don't you know there's a hockey game on! Ohh - USA just went down a second goal..

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Bunbury,
I fail to see how my opinions can be classed as stupidity just because you disagree with them, and to call for the moderators to shut down the topic because you do not like the content, smacks of censorship worthy of North Korea.

HA!!! I cannot believe you just pulled that, I honestly hope your joking, way to pull the troll card...go back to your cave.

I cant even believe this is still a source of contention. It's so old and stale by now i really dont even care if he was born in the US anymore...it makes no difference hes still president and not going to change because the "birthers" movement isnt going to find any substantiated evidence that he wasnt born in the US, and NO its not because the government censors burned it all it's because he was born in the US.

Personally i do not think Obama is doing a good job in office. I didnt vote for him in 2008, i saw him as inexperienced and too caught up in his ideology. The problems he's running into now is a direct result of both those things. He isnt doing enough to either bring the republicans to the center or to totally kick their ass out of the process. He could've slammed health reform through on numerous occasions but choose not to and he could have taken more of a leadership role in forming bipartisan reform but instead left it up to Congress and we now see how that's going. He made far too many unrealistic proposals during in his campaign and now that he's in office he's starting to realize that 90% of the stuff he promised to do isnt going to happen.

Couple this with a bad economic environment and two inherited wars and you've got a recipe for a bad presidency.

Barack Hussein Obama is most certainly an enigma. Where was he born ? Is he a Muslim ? 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, for what ? He is a lawyer ( enough said ) IMHO he is going to bring America to its knees, and the rest of the Free World too. I do hope that a second term does not come his way. BTW media opinion has shifted against Obama, apart from Left Wing Leaning Institutions like the BBC, who ironically are funded by the tax payer here in the UK.

First, welcome to the forum. Second, thanks for your honest reply and the POINT of the thread. Especially from the UK, where I believe Obama's stock price has dropped off the chart.

Briefly and in my opinion ALL people are influenced from their childhood experiences, regardless whether pleasant or tragic. What the American founders had in mind IMO, was any candidate for President should be as American as possible, from birth to the time of taking office, culture and traditions of their day. Whether he was born in Hawaii, Kenya or has a birth certificate or if it were possible to even access all his records, education and all (they are not), he is an remains an enigma (def. Anything that arouses curiosity or perplexes because it is unexplained, inexplicable, or secret.), not fitting those founders idea of a President.

I can't agree that he or more importantly the Congress who has played into his apparent lack of experience (ignorance), they will not bring down the Nation. Congress for all practical purposes has been shut down, I don't believe they will pass anything furthering a socialistic agenda this year, including HC reform, probably losing one or both chamber in November, all but making his last two years in the office, a waste of time. Unfortunately the damage that has been done, adding to the damage that had been known coming for a generation, in paying obligations made over the past 45 years, will require a reorganization of the American Government, not unlike a business filing bankruptcy.

On the 'birthers'; This sub-forum, is not very active and if conversations go off topic or change direction, I don't see a problem, but can only state my opinion. As indicated, where he was born is secondary to too many other issues and frankly I no longer care. Then I have a guiding principle of elected Presidents (In your world PMs, Queens or Kings) in that once elected and certified by Congress, they belong to a different club, probably above the laws they take an oath to uphold. I'd rather not ever see an American President, in any court room, for any reason, than to support my political agenda with any form of vengeance.

Is Obama a Muslim? We don't know. All we know is that his father was a Muslim and he attended a school that required all students to be Muslin. And last week for reasons unknown he appointed an ambassador/czar to serve all Muslims en masse.

Where was he born? No one knows for sure; he refuses to show us his birth certificate.

Dave, sit back and watch his antics and highjinks on the telly. He is becoming a joke.

A sad and unfunny joke. A joke that will unravel the civilized World.

milum; He most certainly knows what it means to be Muslim, with little religious affiliation, before Reverend Wrights teachings and over 20 years. I'm not sure which would have been worse. Muslims, here in the US, don't seem to be as radical as Wright...IMO

milum; As I suggested to Dave, where he was born, may not be the issue, but those five important years or more spent in Kenya or Indonesia are very important.

No milum, don't set back and watch, you can do something about your future in Alabama and should be involved, especially if your under 50 years old. Personally, I don't think Obama is much of an influence on his own administration, but whether it's some kind of organized socialistic agenda or simply a Chicago Thug approach to politics, the style is not American, IMO.

I'm so tired of this level of ignorance not only existing in my society, but seemingly growing and becoming more magnified each day.

inow; Who is responsible for the appearance of the current American Administration. Congress has rejected the HC program and it was NOT republican obstruction, they didn't have the numbers.

As for the 'birthers'; We have a legal system in this country, and was followed. Registering in any State, is the States responsibility. Presumption (false BC) is not a valid issue for the courts and no one could be harmed while he was a candidate (legal standing) and once President, there is not much that they could get involved with. While most feel most of this current nonsense is Obama's, Congress STILL has to do the legislation.

European enthusiasm for Obama is perfectly consistent with prevailing European attitudes so I fail to see why anyone would be surprised. Capitalism with regulation, climate policy based on science instead of ideology, respect for human rights, using tax revenues to improve lives – these understood by most Europeans to be proper components of a modern democracy. As for chasing down bin Laden, Europeans are probably somewhat bemused at why we should be spending millions chasing after an ageing diabetic terrorist who couldn't’t in his wildest dreams kill as many people as our health insurance system does.

Bunbury; First I'm not sure, where the enthusiasm was coming from or why. I really don't feel it was the Governments or any future anticipation of the US going Socialist (their meaning). Yes, the younger generations of several in the EU, with heavy unemployment and dim looking futures, along with the free concerts seemed enthusiastic, but I'm not sure it would be there today.

Obama doesn't care about bin Laden; If he even believes he is still alive, he has to play the role of fighting those that had attacked NYC, DC and WV. He could claim today, he's been eliminated and I doubt anyone could ever prove otherwise or care. Same with Bush, who worried more about making him a hero to the radical portion of the Muslims. By the way if he plays this 'got him' card in October 2012 or anytime close to that, it won't work....nobody really cares.

On Health Care Reform; I'm past any US Federal Government fixing the problems, now going along with privatizing the entire system. Nobody has died from the Health Care System, only those that regulate it and this is mostly the Federal Government IMO.

The media in Europe are if anything even less rational than here and I wouldn’t pay much attention to most of them.

Yes, I know and a little understanding from those IN Europe, knowing their available sources for news (birthers) should be in order.

The obstructionism of the minority party goes far beyond what I expected. I look forward to Obama stepping out in front and leading, on the basis of what we, the American people, voted for.

I'm so tired of answering this point; The Democrats HAD the numbers in both chambers of the Congress and the Executive. It's the Democrats, that kept any of those ridiculous bills from passing or getting to the floor in the first place. As for Obama stepping out in front and leading, I hope there is a joke, I've missed. I'd be happy if he showed some understanding of any issue, with out a teleprompter.

Again I apologize for not following up on a thread I started. Tuesday is Primary Day in Texas, and I've been behind the apparent loser KBH, but really don't oppose Perry. It's all but over, Perry Wins....the Republican Primary.

Originally Posted by jackson33

I can't agree that he or more importantly the Congress who has played into his apparent lack of experience (ignorance), they will not bring down the Nation. Congress for all practical purposes has been shut down, I don't believe they will pass anything furthering a socialistic agenda this year, including HC reform, probably losing one or both chamber in November, all but making his last two years in the office, a waste of time.

Not True. You are using one specific example (Health Care) to exemplify a collective that is very different. Congress has passed a large amount of legislation since Obama's inauguration. TARP was passed under a lame duck president at the end of his term, Obama's finical stimulus passed, a variety of initiatives on green reform have passed, the recent jobs bill has passed and that's just to name a few. I would argue that Congress is the most capable body in existence right now. If Obama wants to take control and live up to his promises he needs to start utilizing is power through means like Executive Orders. And it's definitely not the fault of the Republicans in Congress, they are doing their job - representing their constituencies - and they are simply outperforming the Dems.

People in general are pretty stupid and they need somewhere to place blame, but 90% of the time their blame is misdirected and ill-informed. Obama inherited so much - Iraq, Afghanistan, The huge debt/deficits, an economic recession, climate change - and when he cannot fix this all in a year he someone becomes a 'failed president'

I say give him time but personally im not optimistic judging by the way he is handling politics now.

I'm so tired of answering this point; The Democrats HAD the numbers in both chambers of the Congress and the Executive. It's the Democrats, that kept any of those ridiculous bills from passing or getting to the floor in the first place. As for Obama stepping out in front and leading, I hope there is a joke, I've missed. I'd be happy if he showed some understanding of any issue, with out a teleprompter.

I can't see any rationale for your suggestion that Democrats are preventing their bills from passing, unless you mean Nelson and Lieberman. Perhaps you could elucidate.

What is the point of your mentioning teleprompters? Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you mean the use of teleprompters, as Ronald Reagan did, is worse in some way than the use of cue cards, which George W. Bush preferred? Again please elucidate.

Originally Posted by Bunbury

I'm so tired of answering this point; The Democrats HAD the numbers in both chambers of the Congress and the Executive. It's the Democrats, that kept any of those ridiculous bills from passing or getting to the floor in the first place. As for Obama stepping out in front and leading, I hope there is a joke, I've missed. I'd be happy if he showed some understanding of any issue, with out a teleprompter.

I can't see any rationale for your suggestion that Democrats are preventing their bills from passing, unless you mean Nelson and Lieberman. Perhaps you could elucidate.

What is the point of your mentioning teleprompters? Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you mean the use of teleprompters, as Ronald Reagan did, is worse in some way than the use of cue cards, which George W. Bush preferred? Again please elucidate.

Uh, Bunbury...excuse me for jumping in but I'm trying to save you further embarrassment. You see, Bun buddy, the Demo's don't want Obama's Health Care bill to pass, because in that sad event they will surely be thrown out on their butts in November. The American people do not want socialized medicine.

Did you hear me? The American people do not want socialized medicine.

Originally Posted by milum

Uh, Bunbury...excuse me for jumping in but I'm trying to save you further embarrassment. You see, Bun buddy, the Demo's don't want Obama's Health Care bill to pass, because in that sad event they will surely be thrown out on their butts in November. The American people do not want socialized medicine.

Did you hear me? The American people do not want socialized medicine.

Polls on the matter of the American people's support of "socialized medicine" show a majority in favor of - ranging from as high as 72% (CBS) to as low as 59% (Reuters) - links below.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5098517.shtml
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B20OL20091203

Did you hear me? The American people do not want socialized medicine.

Apparently polls indicate otherwise but its clear The Insurance Industry do not want socialized medicine and they are spending millions to keep their gravy train racket going. :wink:

In other words, milum... Yes, we all heard you, but you are still wrong. I'll throw one more into the hopper:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/he...19c&ei=5087%0A


And for those who are challenged by reading, here is one in graphical form:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...hic_ready.html

Keep current, guys...

MONDAY MARCH 01, 2010
President Obama’s health care summit last week seems to have nudged up support, but 52% of U.S. voters continue to oppose the plan proposed by the president and congressional Democrats.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 44% favor the plan, up three points from last week just before the summit and the highest level of support recorded since mid-November.

But passion remains on the side of the opponents: just 22% Strongly Favor the plan while 43% Strongly Oppose it.

Since Thanksgiving, overall support for the president’s health care plan has ranged from 38 % to 44% while opposition has run from a low of 51% to a high of 58%.

Seventy-six percent (76%) of those with insurance now rate their own coverage as good or excellent. The fact that most Americans are comfortable with their own insurance coverage has proven to be a major obstacle for advocates of reform because 49% of insured Americans say it’s at least somewhat likely that the plan before Congress could force them to change their own coverage.

Voters overall are now evenly divided over whether the health care plan will pass Congress this year. Forty-four percent (44%) say the plan is likely to become law this year. That’s up six points from a week ago when just 38% thought passage was likely, the lowest level of confidence in the bill’s passage to date. The new finding includes 18% who say passage is very likely.

But another 44% believe passage of the health plan is unlikely, with 31% who say it’s not very likely and 13% who say it’s not at all likely. Twelve percent (12%) more are not

First off, please post a link to news articles, do not copy and paste.

Originally Posted by milum

Keep current, guys...

Second, ignoring for a minute the Rasmussen Report's well known conservative leaning in polls compared to other national polls, the question they posed was not whether Americans wanted a public option for health care, it was support and opposition for the bill that is now under consideration. This does not prove your point.

"The American people do not want socialized medicine"

"44% favor the plan"

Obama's plan is more a fat bailout of insurance companies then it is socialized medecine

Calling that 'socialized medecine' is like calling a bailout of Private Bankers at the expense of working people... ..."socialism"
its the opposite (corporatist fascism) but using orwellian newspeak to fool people.

Bootsy; When I mentioned 'been shut down' I was referring to the Scot Brown election and potential of further socialistic legislation.

People in general are pretty stupid and they need somewhere to place blame, but 90% of the time their blame is misdirected and ill-informed. Obama inherited so much - Iraq, Afghanistan, The huge debt/deficits, an economic recession, climate change - and when he cannot fix this all in a year he someone becomes a 'failed president'.

Every President inherits, whatever the direction of Government was, at the time. In this case he (Obama) was allowed input from the day of the election. Bush/Paulson left about half the TARP money to use at his discretion and had not signed the 2010 Budget in effect from October 2009. Obama did sign the Budget, after a good many amendments (pork) were added and TARP money is being used as slush fund today, not paid back as was the original wording of the bill. Iraq with said surge working was pretty much a done deal and Afghanistan decisions were all Obamas decisions....

I say give him time but personally im not optimistic judging by the way he is handling politics now.

I'll say it again; I don't think it's Obama your giving a chance to, but a mentally of those that surround him, obviously my opinion. This would include Polosi/Reid, which to slow or stop, must be addressed today. Reid, will likely not only lose the 'Senate Majority' seat, but the Nevada seat itself. Polosi, while likely to win back her seat, but could become the minority leader in the House, not the Speaker.

I can't see any rationale for your suggestion that Democrats are preventing their bills from passing, unless you mean Nelson and Lieberman. Perhaps you could elucidate.

Bunbury; Lieberman/Nelson caucus with the Democrats and will follow their vote.

In the Senate, until Brown was seated, both parties were voting along party lines, including the last major action, lifting the National Debt ceiling 1.9T$... On Health Care Reform, it was no different but required more than a couple special treatment/actions for Democrats (LA/NEB)... The problems to pass the bill, comes from the House, since their bill was different than the Senate, would have to vote again. The House bill passed for all practical purposes by one vote (think actual showed five), while the majority was 45 or so more democrats. For any bill to again pass the House, two things are dividing the Dems, not Reps, being wording of Abortion and Single Payer (Government Option), then throw in the 2010 elections 10 months off. Hard core districts want the GO and won't vote for anything w/o it, while some others (Blue Dogs or those representing more Conservative districts) won't vote for either, the Single payer or the inclusion of payment for abortion. Said another way, all Republicans could have opposed either or both bills and could not stop the passing of anything...

What is the point of your mentioning teleprompters? Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you mean the use of teleprompters, as Ronald Reagan did, is worse in some way than the use of cue cards, which George W. Bush preferred? Again please elucidate.

IMO, Obama is knee deep in the learning process to Govern the Nation, while only understanding the campaigning portion of the process. There is a difference. Bush I & II, Clinton, Reagan, even Carter and going back to Truman, said the same things off the cuff, they did in speeches, Obama rarely is consistent, off the cuff. AGAIN IMO...

Second, ignoring for a minute the Rasmussen Report's well known conservative leaning in polls compared to other national polls, the question they posed was not whether Americans wanted a public option for health care, it was support and opposition for the bill that is now under consideration. This does not prove your point.

Jacques; Nonsense, the below polls were directly linked to Obama/Congressional Reform and several months old.

Speaking of references, I would like to see something on Rasmussen being a "Well Known Conservative", having heard he is a Democrat, but neither would be the point. His polling agency is near to or the top rated, for accuracy.

I might suggest sending milum a PM or produce a sticky on how to copy/cut and paste items. Not everybody, starts off knowing how these things are done or even having to prove every little word posted.

Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low as just 42% of U.S. voters now favor the plan. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...lls_to_new_low

Rasmussen Poll: Support for Democrat healthcare reform down to 42%
A new Rasumessen Poll finds support for Democrat healthcare reform proposals continuing to wane. Less than six weeks ago, 50% of Americans supported President Obama’s efforts to reform our nation’s healthcare system. That number has fallen to 42% with disapproval numbers rising to 53% - up 9% from late June.

http://healthcarehorserace.com/thera...rm-down-to-42/



Dave, noted you have returned and posted on another sub-forum (great), but have not followed up on you discussions with inow....Hope it wasn't anything I said.

jackson 33,
I had to put in a days work today and the same again tomorrow, going to bed very soon, up at 0430hrs. I am a bit lost with the things that you are talking about at the moment, but I am reading it all. It just seemed far easier replying to a topic that I knew a little about ( Gordon Brown ), and also the topic had not received any replies, so I thought that I would oblige.
I will be researching for some special stuff for inow.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

I will be researching for some special stuff for inow.

You should be doing it to better inform yourself, too.

inow,

That is one of the many benefits of doing research, off to work right now.

Originally Posted by icewendigo

"The American people do not want socialized medicine"

"44% favor the plan"

Obama's plan is more a fat bailout of insurance companies then it is socialized medecine

Calling that 'socialized medecine' is like calling a bailout of Private Bankers at the expense of working people... ..."socialism"
its the opposite (corporatist fascism) but using orwellian newspeak to fool people.

I'm with you, icewendigo. "Obama's Plan" is a corrupt plan. You garner your socialist friends and I'll assemble my redneck friends and together we'll defeat it.

Partners?

Originally Posted by milum

I'm with you, icewendigo. "Obama's Plan" is a corrupt plan.

Please explain.

Also, are you going to just ignore the refutations to your previous arguments?

Probably.

Please explain.


Hello Jacques.X,

in my opinion it apears a majority of americans (contrary to rightwing views) do want a public option or a form of socialized medecine like the rest of the industrialized world, however what ever Obama's plan may have been initially he has made so many needless counter-productive compromizes (giving the excuse of trying to get support by people who will not support it anyway) that the end result is a few half-baked measures with the obligation to get PRIVATE health insurance but still NO PUBLIC option no choice, if Im wrong just let me know. It appears that insurance industry lobbying takes precedance over the will of the population in a corrupt best-money-can-buy sort of way. The same problem of governments that are so corrupt by corporate interests that they loose democratic legitimacy is occuring in many western countries unfortunatly.

In deleting Dave's post for irrelevancy, I was attempting to prevent the complete halt of the current discussion, which obviously backfired as many have commented on the deletion - ironically taking over this thread.

I have split this thread so that those wishing to comment can do so in the Site Feedback forum:

http://www.thescienceforum.com/Comme...ion-23232t.php