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Thread: Cold War --> Terrorism

  1. #1 Cold War --> Terrorism 
    Time Lord
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    I'm having a hard time telling what the difference is between CIA/KGB ops and terrorist ops. Both are games of plausible deniability (in the case of terror, the mother country has plausible deniability in the sense that it can deny its involvement)

    The CIA, KGB, and Mossad have all done their share of political manipulations, assassinations (clearly a terrorist act, if it were perpetrated by a common citizen), and even bombings of public buildings under some circumstances.

    Any government under the level of the US, Russia, China, or their direct allies, which tries to directly oppose the will of one of the higher countries, runs the risk that agents of an established intelligence/counter intelligence agency will be dispatched to wreak havoc in some manner or another. Countries like Chile and Guatemala have seen first hand just how easily their political systems can be disrupted if the USA doesn't like the way things are headed. How is Al Quaida very different from that, other than its choice of enemy? Do we deserve to be able to control our own political system in a world where we have denied that right to others?

    Rather than label them "enemy combatants" would it be better to try terrorists for espionage? Maybe we'd have to invent a similar term that applies to situations where it's unknown which specific nation the "spy" is serving, but where their goals have obviously been along the lines of international subterfuge/mayhem.


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  3. #2  
    Time Lord
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    Not a bad idea. The fact that spies evade detection while terrorists seek exposure, is immaterial. Both are agents using dirty tricks, clearly against the spirit if not letter of international law.


    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    The CIA/MI6/Mossad are the biggest terrorists of them all, they perpetrate their own terrorist actions that kill civilians, they are worst than the IRA for example, because they have the operational ability to hide their crimes and influence the Media and police and often have their enemies blamed for their crimes which is then used to increase their budgets, so when they commit terrorism you hear its the work of group X, Y or Z. The same would apply to the secret services/police of any state, its just that American-Zionist Empire happens to be the Empire of our time and they are more deceitful than other historical empires (the same false-flaging treacherous MO can be expected to be used by other states in th future). The IRA however would claim their actions and might even be blamed for terrorism done by the MI6 passing off as IRA. Worst in the sense that they get away with it without (most) people knowing they were involved. In addition, secret services are often able to infiltrate and handle or utterly take over the grass-roots amaturish terrorist organizations. In italy in the 70s over 100 italians were killed in terrorist attacks by NATO controled groups posing as Communists. Everyone was fooled, the gov, police, media all reported to the public the lie that communists were responsible, and it took years for people to learn the truth and most people in other countries dont know about this, because then they would start asking questions, like wondering what are the odds that a terrorsit bombing in London would coincide exactly with a security exercise going on the same day!(as revealed in the Peter Powers interview, which was not rebroadcast afterwards and that most people never heard of).

    Right now the US is not controled by the people, with the patriot act, using orwellian language like "enhenced interogation" and "enemy combatant" to justify getting away with torture and denying POW basic Geneva convention rights, using depleted uranium on populations, selling landmines/sub-munitions/white-phosphorous weapons, scrapping anti-bioweapons treaties, and on top of that the army and gov are braking laws and getting away with it. But when ever the people of a country can get power or there happens to be a leader thats not moraly bankrupt or in the pocket of organized crime or corporations, there ought to be laws stating that its a crime in itself for any governmnent agent or subcontractor to misrepresent himself and commit or incite a crime both for the agents that do it and for the officiers that allowed this to occur on their watch, for those who know about such crimes not to signal it, as well as generous and serious whistleblower protection. The Army and police are infiltrating, spying on civilian activists, false-flaging violence while mascarading as protesters to discredid them/highjack the debate/justify crackdown, such actions should be criminal and the police officers doing and sactioning it should be tried and jailed. False flag operations where actual terrorism is commited are seldom(almost never) revealed by the media, and when it occurs its more likely that the police/gov will get less of a sentence then joe-shmoe doing te same thing where as they should get exemplary sentencing plus added charges for being a gov paid agent.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
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    I think we should be careful here, the killing of civilians and torture of combatants should be punished for sure. But some people (like Osama bin Laden) who have already proven to be a threat (Africa embassy bombings) could easily be taken out with espionage, without the high costs (on both sides) of war. That said too often spies have (like in Chile) seen political systems as threats, without evidence or justification.
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  6. #5  
    Time Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    The CIA/MI6/Mossad are the biggest terrorists of them all, they perpetrate their own terrorist actions that kill civilians, they are worst than the IRA for example, because they have the operational ability to hide their crimes and influence the Media and police and often have their enemies blamed for their crimes which is then used to increase their budgets, so when they commit terrorism you hear its the work of group X, Y or Z. The same would apply to the secret services/police of any state, its just that American-Zionist Empire happens to be the Empire of our time and they are more deceitful than other historical empires (the same false-flaging treacherous MO can be expected to be used by other states in th future). The IRA however would claim their actions and might even be blamed for terrorism done by the MI6 passing off as IRA. Worst in the sense that they get away with it without (most) people knowing they were involved. In addition, secret services are often able to infiltrate and handle or utterly take over the grass-roots amaturish terrorist organizations. In italy in the 70s over 100 italians were killed in terrorist attacks by NATO controled groups posing as Communists. Everyone was fooled, the gov, police, media all reported to the public the lie that communists were responsible, and it took years for people to learn the truth and most people in other countries dont know about this, because then they would start asking questions, like wondering what are the odds that a terrorsit bombing in London would coincide exactly with a security exercise going on the same day!(as revealed in the Peter Powers interview, which was not rebroadcast afterwards and that most people never heard of).
    What concerns me is that we live in a system where such things are possible. I don't know if it actually happens, or how often it happens if it does. When you don't have checks and balances in place, there's nothing to stop things from reverting back to a situation similar to the old feudal systems we've been trying to leave behind.

    It would be good to have people in positions of absolute power if you could always have good people in those positions, and never bad people, but there's no guarantee of that. There never is. History is full of times when such positions were created, and filled by good people, who later died and were replaced by successors who weren't good people.

    If clones of Agustus Caesar had always been the head of state in Rome, I imagine there's a good chance Rome would still be standing today. But instead, they got people like Nero. And that's what absolutely always happens. You can only roll the dice so many times before you get the wrong numbers.




    there ought to be laws stating that its a crime in itself for any governmnent agent or subcontractor to misrepresent himself and commit or incite a crime both for the agents that do it and for the officiers that allowed this to occur on their watch, for those who know about such crimes not to signal it, as well as generous and serious whistleblower protection.
    I agree. It's illegal in the private sector. I wonder why it isn't illegal in the public sector. If a politician advertises them self as having certain traits, or as having not committed certain acts of which they are accused, and then gets elected on the basis of those misrepresentations, they should be tried for fraud, and have to serve time.

    You can't try them for failing to deliver on promises, though, because it's not always up to them entirely, but if a politician claims, for example, that he didn't cheat on his wife, and then evidence later surfaces that he did (a common occurrence in Washington), then he should go to jail for lying. He's defrauding people into taking a course of action that they would not have taken if the facts had been accurately presented to them. It's a form of coercion.
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