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Thread: Israeli airstrikes in Gaza leave over 225 Palestinians dead

  1. #301  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Sorry, the history of Israel does not support you. Nor do the lies and disinformation I hear at the moment from the Israeli representatives.

    If you want to know what Gaza is thinking about you and yours, here is a link.

    http://www.palestinechronicle.com/vi...s.php?id=14592

    The Palestinians are too good for the likes of you


    Believe me, I wouldn't be half as generous.
    I won't even go to a site named Palestine Chronicle. Might as well link the Cat In The Hat
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    How Crowded Is Gaza?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2HQp....blogspot.com/


    Save the poor starving Gazans!!!!
    ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83aJj72UjlM
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    Gaza Strip
    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 19 deaths/1,000 live births
    male: 20.22 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 17.72 deaths/1,000 live births (2008 est.)

    West Bank
    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 16.51 deaths/1,000 live births
    male: 18.5 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 14.39 deaths/1,000 live births (2008 est.)

    Israel
    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 4.28 deaths/1,000 live births
    male: 4.43 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 4.12 deaths/1,000 live births (2008 est.)

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/is.html

    This is ethnic cleansing


    The Israeli military and economic siege of Gaza has led to a collapse in Palestinian living conditions and many people only survive by looking for scraps of food in rubbish dumps, say international aid agencies.

    "The pressure and tactics have not resulted in a desire for compromise," Karen Abuzayd, the head of the UN Relief and Works Agency is said to have warned. "But rather they have created mass despair, anger and a sense of hopelessness and abandonment."

    Israel closed the entry and exit points into the Gaza Strip, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, on 25 June and has conducted frequent raids and bombings that have killed 262 people and wounded 1,200. The crisis in Gaza has been largely ignored by the rest of the world, which has been absorbed by the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon.

    "Women in Gaza tell me they are eating only one meal a day, bread with tomatoes or cheap vegetables," said Kirstie Campbell of the UN's World Food Programme, which is feeding 235,000 people. She added that in June, since when the crisis has worsened, some 70 per cent of people in Gaza could not meet their family's food needs. "People are raiding garbage dumps," she said.

    Not only do Palestinians in Gaza get little to eat but what food they have is eaten cold because of the lack of electricity and money to pay for fuel. The Gaza power plant was destroyed by an Israeli air strike in June. In one month alone 4 per cent of Gaza's agricultural land was destroyed by Israeli bulldozers.

    The total closure imposed by Israel, supplemented by deadly raids, has led to the collapse of the Gazan economy. The 35,000 fishermen cannot fish because Israeli gunboats will fire on them if they go more than a few hundred yards from the shore. At the same time the international boycott of the Hamas government means that there is no foreign aid to pay Palestinian government employees. The government used to have a monthly budget of $180-200m, half of which went to pay 165,000 public sector workers. But it now has only $25m a month.

    Aid agencies are frustrated by their inability to persuade the world that the humanitarian crisis is far worse in Gaza than it is in Lebanon. The WFP says: "In contrast to Lebanon, where humanitarian food aid needs have been essentially met, the growing number of poor in Gaza are living on the bare minimum."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ps-415228.html

    This is ethnic cleansing, also a war crime.
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  4. #304  
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    Population density:
    The Gaza Strip has one of the highest overall growth rates and population densities in the world. The 2008 population was 1,537,269, giving the region a population density of 4,270 persons per sq km (11,060 per sq mi).
    Israel
    Population : 7,180,000
    Area: 22,072 sq km
    Density: 325 per sq km
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    total: 11.94 deaths/1,000 live births
    male: 13.58 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 10.23 deaths/1,000 live births (2008 est.) Those are the rates in Saudi Arabia, one of the richest Arabian states. Yes, Israel has some of the best doctors and birthrates in the world. Too bad the Arabian states can't catch up on science technology. It would be good if they decided to focus on education instead of death and hate.

    As for ethnic cleansing ROFLMAOAY
    There are more Palestinians born each year than die. Much more. Even during the current war.

    You Paliphiles are so full of assmonkey rhetoric. Sam, you should really stop posting. You are embarrassing yourself immensely here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Population density:
    The Gaza Strip has one of the highest overall growth rates and population densities in the world. The 2008 population was 1,537,269, giving the region a population density of 4,270 persons per sq km (11,060 per sq mi).
    Israel
    Population : 7,180,000
    Area: 22,072 sq km
    Density: 325 per sq km
    The video I posted shows Singapore has a greater amount of people per square km.

    But but but, if Gaza has one of the highest overall growth rates, then that ethnic genocide that you accuse Israel of seems to be working in reverse
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    But Saudi Arabia is not in Israel. We are comparing 3 groups of people all living on the same land, with alleged access to the same food and medical services. Yet, two of them have four times the infant mortality. But, its good to see your denial. It means you do not wish to believe it is true.

    High birth rates and high infant mortality rates only happen under two conditions. Can you guess what they are?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    But Saudi Arabia is not in Israel. We are comparing 3 groups of people all living on the same land, with alleged access to the same food and medical services. Yet, two of them have four times the infant mortality. But, its good to see your denial. It means you do not wish to believe it is true.

    High birth rates and high infant mortality rates only happen under two conditions. Can you guess what they are?
    Gaza chased the Jews out. It is not the same land or the same people. As for the West Bank, again, outside of the Jewish settlements, the West Bank Arabs too are on their own more or less.
    What is the infant mortality rate within Israel for Arabs? That is the only way to compare apples with apples.
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    Gaza was occupied for 30 years by foreign Jews who invaded and occupied them and now strangle them and slaughter them. And the Jews are somehow the victims here. Its a twisted world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Gaza was occupied for 30 years by foreign Jews who invaded and occupied them and now strangle them and slaughter them. And the Jews are somehow the victims here. Its a twisted world.
    Prior to 1967, Egypt occupied Gaza.

    Twentieth century

    After World War I, the League of Nations (precursor to the United Nations) granted quasi-colonial authority over former Ottoman territories to Great Britain and France. Britain had the Mandate over the areas that now comprise Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan.[18]

    Many Jewish inhabitants of Gaza left during and after the 1929 Palestine riots. From then on, the British prohibited Jews from living there. In 1946, however, a group of Jews established Kibbutz Kfar Darom in the central Gaza Strip, named for a Jewish town that had existed there in the Talmudic period. Though the Jewish community remained distinct, many still lived amongst the Christian and Muslim communities in neighborhoods such as Rimal. However, their numbers slowly dwindled as the tensions between Jews and Arabs increased throughout Palestine, causing mutual distrust. [12]

    After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Egypt occupied Gaza and its surrounding area. The city's growing population was augmented by an influx of Arab refugees fleeing nearby cities, towns and villages that were captured by Israel. Israel captured the city and the Gaza Strip during the 1967 Six Day War, but withdrew completely under Israel's unilateral disengagement plan in 2005. With the onset of the Palestinian uprising known as the First Intifada in 1987, Gaza became a center of political unrest and confrontation between Israelis and Palestinians, and economic conditions in the city worsened.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

    Egypt did not want Gaza back as part of the land for peace deals signed between the countries.

    Yes, Israel is strangling Gaza because they elected Hamas a terrorist group with a main goal of destroying Israel. And Hamas has tried to get better and bigger arms into Gaza for 3 years. Israel does not want Hamas to have missiles that can make it to Tel Aviv. Do you blame them?

    What did the Palestinians expect when they voted in Hamas? What is Israel supposed to do? Sit there and wait for bombs to go off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    And the Jews are somehow the victims here. Its a twisted world.
    Most certainly, from an Islamic perspective, of course.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Prior to 1967, Egypt occupied Gaza.
    Uh and how is this even remotely relevant to the invasion of the European Jews? The Palestinians should have got their self determination in 1947, just like the others. Since the Zionists were all atheists, why did they simply not go to Argentina as was offered, or somewhere else? Why dispossess the poor Palestinians? Note that all the shit hit the fan after the 1917 Balfour declaration was made public and especially after the 1919 King Crane Commission polled the people about their opinion of a Jewish state in Palestine.

    What did the Palestinians expect when they voted in Hamas? What is Israel supposed to do? Sit there and wait for bombs to go off?
    How about this? Offer them an Israeli citizenship. I bet regardless of what the politicians think, the people will jump for it. No more Hamas. What say you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Prior to 1967, Egypt occupied Gaza.
    Uh and how is this even remotely relevant to the invasion of the European Jews? The Palestinians should have got their self determination in 1947, just like the others. Since the Zionists were all atheists, why did they simply not go to Argentina as was offered, or somewhere else? Why dispossess the poor Palestinians? Note that all the shit hit the fan after the 1917 Balfour declaration was made public and especially after the 1919 King Crane Commission polled the people about their opinion of a Jewish state in Palestine.

    What did the Palestinians expect when they voted in Hamas? What is Israel supposed to do? Sit there and wait for bombs to go off?
    How about this? Offer them an Israeli citizenship. I bet regardless of what the politicians think, the people will jump for it. No more Hamas. What say you?
    Invasion of European Jews? Jews migrated there mostly legally and in 1947 held a majority in what was proposed to be the Jewish governed part of the partition.
    The Zionists were not all atheists LOL.
    Nobody had to be dispossessed. Are the Brazilians being dispossessed by the 10 million of Arab descent who live in Brazil now?
    The Arabs have warred with Israel five times. Offer citizenship to those who want to destroy you? If I were Israel I wouldn't be into suicide. That is a Muslim thingy anyway.
    Israel needs to have a majority Jewish population today. Maybe in 100 years they won't. But Jews aren't suicidal.
    And besides, just because your grandparent lived in a land, it doesn't mean you belong there. You belong where you live.
    It is up to countries that are established to let you in or not if you want to go somewhere. The Jews in Israel have laws to allow Jews back to try to ensure a Jewish majority population.
    If you want to live in a Muslim majority population you have a multitude of choices.
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  14. #314  
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    Jews migrated legally
    No matter how thinly you slice it, its still baloney. You recall the bombing of Kind David Hotel? I bet if I kicked out all the Jews from Israel and renamed it Sammyland, it would belong to me. Rights are only rights if they are recognised, right? If I'm an asshole, I can just put you in a dungeon in chains, starve you and call it freedom. Words are meaningless.
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  15. #315  
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    SAM insights of the expected Muslim behavior worldwide

    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    Looks like Hamas is winning support even outside Gaza. In fact, Israel has apparently healed the Sunni Shia rift of 1300 years in the region. They all want to attack Israel. And attacks on the diaspora Jews have started in the US and France.

    So what will Israel achieve?
    it is in essence a religious war.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Offer them an Israeli citizenship.
    Human Rights = ON. Thank you.


    Now for some inter-Canadian moralizing:
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    just because your grandparent lived in a land, it doesn't mean you belong there. You belong where you live... It is up to countries that are established to let you in or not if you want to go somewhere. The Jews in Israel have laws to allow Jews back to try to ensure a Jewish majority population.
    I know that thinking. We all go thought it, hopefully don't stop at self serving. Yeah you have a right to own this place Baconeater. Not because you're here and you have power to shut the door after yourself. You have a right because everybody does. And because nobody has a right to deny anybody. That's all.

    Sometimes I wonder if BC ought to manage its own immigration and leave the rest of Canada wallow in "racialism" or whatever it's called. Screw their conceited majorities. But I see all provinces making progress, slowly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Offer citizenship to those who want to destroy you?
    Especially those, yes. It destroys "them" and makes "us" enormous and bulletproof. It works. It's also a lot of fun and good business too.

    I've yet to meet a Canadian (or anyone on Earth for that matter) who wishes Canada destroyed. Not even our grudging citizen Natives, and I know some pretty radical Natives. The Palestinians, I think I mentioned, share a special friendship with the Jews here... and you guess what'll happen between their children. It's all positive. The key I think is that nobody ever destroys what they're invested in. It is really easy for a country to become palpably indispensable to people. Then they feel indebted. It's a virtuous cycle.

    So the best Israelis will be the generation of Palestinians Israel welcomes in good faith.


    @ Spock. How do we bring this about?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Offer them an Israeli citizenship.
    Human Rights = ON. Thank you.
    That would be great if the Arabs actually believed in human rights. They don't. Israel would soon become an Islamic republic where Jews would be second class citizens. Samcdkey thinks that would be fine. No sane Jew would go for it. Your "solution" is a prescription for more of the same in the Middle East.
     

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    Thats a racist statement. The US topples all elected governments in the Middle East. Name one that it has supported. The Palestinian demand for a secular state for all is more in line with the US constitution than the Jewish state which gives right of "return" to foreigners on the basis of Jewry and forbids natives a right to return home if they are not Jews.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Thats a racist statement. The US topples all elected governments in the Middle East. Name one that it has supported. The Palestinian demand for a secular state for all is more in line with the US constitution than the Jewish state which gives right of "return" to foreigners on the basis of Jewry and forbids natives a right to return home if they are not Jews.
    How is the "secular state" in Gaza doing? In Iran, Jews are close to Dhimmis.
    Besides, it would NEVER EVER happen that Israel will go the route of Muslim majority.
    You might as well believe in fairy tales and God and stuff like that as well.
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    Pong, look at the problems that Britain is having with Muslims. Your idea of letting those in who hate us makes life for many not very happy. I don't want to live in a land where Sharia Law is tolerated. You can't respect human rights and allow Sharia Law.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Thats a racist statement. The US topples all elected governments in the Middle East. Name one that it has supported. The Palestinian demand for a secular state for all is more in line with the US constitution than the Jewish state which gives right of "return" to foreigners on the basis of Jewry and forbids natives a right to return home if they are not Jews.
    It's not a statement about race. It's a statement about religion. It is a fact that Muslims do not support freedom of religion. We have already discussed the policies of Saudia Arabia which accepts only Muslims as citizens and does not allow free practice of any other religion. And you agreed with those policies.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Thats a racist statement. The US topples all elected governments in the Middle East. Name one that it has supported. The Palestinian demand for a secular state for all is more in line with the US constitution than the Jewish state which gives right of "return" to foreigners on the basis of Jewry and forbids natives a right to return home if they are not Jews.
    It's not a statement about race. It's a statement about religion. It is a fact that Muslims do not support freedom of religion. We have already discussed the policies of Saudia Arabia which accepts only Muslims as citizens and does not allow free practice of any other religion. And you agreed with those policies.
    Then Jews should not have moved to a predominantly Muslim state. Why didn't they go to America? Apart from the fact that Americans wouldn't take them, that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Thats a racist statement. The US topples all elected governments in the Middle East. Name one that it has supported. The Palestinian demand for a secular state for all is more in line with the US constitution than the Jewish state which gives right of "return" to foreigners on the basis of Jewry and forbids natives a right to return home if they are not Jews.
    It's not a statement about race. It's a statement about religion. It is a fact that Muslims do not support freedom of religion. We have already discussed the policies of Saudia Arabia which accepts only Muslims as citizens and does not allow free practice of any other religion. And you agreed with those policies.
    Then Jews should not have moved to a predominantly Muslim state. Why didn't they go to America? Apart from the fact that Americans wouldn't take them, that is.
    We do take them. They have full US citizenship. We also accept Muslims. Foolishly, I think, because, by their religion, they do not support our Constitution.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    Then Jews should not have moved to a predominantly Muslim state. Why didn't they go to America? Apart from the fact that Americans wouldn't take them, that is.
    The Jews moved there for two reasons. One was religious (this answers the location question). It was the birthplace of Judaism. Secondly, and the most important reason to set up shop, was that by establishing a Jewish majority where Jews were guaranteed to be treated as equals. Jew hating was peaking in Europe again in the late 1800's and of course, hit a peak during Nazi Germany. Jews were within rights to find a land that was not sovereign to establish a state.
    No, the Palestinian region was not a STATE, but it had a predominantly Muslim majority in the late 1800's.
    But again, Paliphiles are hypocritical because for some reason demographics are allowed to change everywhere but the middle east for some reason.
    Look at Dearborn Michigan. Arab Muslims now make up almost 50% of the population there.
    Are you saying that Muslims should not have moved to a predominantly Christian town?
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    BTW apparently Israel was instrumental in the creation of Hamas to undermine the PLO (divide to conquer I guess).

    And people(americans in particular) should stop making remarks about the the lack of democracy in the arab world. First because the US/UK supports puppet regimes and dictators that oppress the local populations while favoring US corporate interests and has overthrown the elected government of Mossadeq in Iran to put the dictator Shah in power, are supporting Saudi Arabia(unelected).
    Second because a large part of the whole Islamic extremist movement was ingeneered, fostered, funded, by western intelligence CIA(Al Queda)/MI6/Mossad(Hamas) for its own short-sighted machiavellian motives, Zbigniew Brzezinski and company wanted to use islamists as a wall of cannon foder from the balkans to afghanistan against the USSR.

    And if all that crap wasnt enough in the middle east, wait theres more, even Nato allies are being raped by the CIA/MI6/Mossad, the CIA supported a military dictatorship coup d'etat in Grece in the 70s, and from 60s to the 80s under operation Gladio the CIA commited acts of terrorism being falsely blamed on communists that killed over a hundred inoccent civilians just in Italy in bombings similar to the madrid and london 7/7 (but now the patsy du jour are muslims). With friends like that who needs enemies. Speaking of 7/7, go to youtube and watch the Peter Powers interview on the day of 7/7, the bombings coincided exactly with an terrorism exercise being held on that same day, give me a break, its the same Gladio crap all over again except this time around CIA/MI6/Mossad are blaming muslims in their false flag operation.

    So people should cut the 'pretence of being in favor of democracy' crap
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370

    We do take them. They have full US citizenship. We also accept Muslims. Foolishly, I think, because, by their religion, they do not support our Constitution.
    Check your history. The US did not start taking Jews until after 1948, in fact around 1950. They were sending them back to Germany before that, even kids.

    And for a country based on genocide of natives by immigrants, its hilarious to hear the jawing about what other immigrants should support.

    Still waiting to hear which democratically elected country the US has supported in the Middle East.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Look at Dearborn Michigan. Arab Muslims now make up almost 50% of the population there.
    Are you saying that Muslims should not have moved to a predominantly Christian town?
    Can they declare it an independent sharia state with a need for a Muslim majority?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370

    We do take them. They have full US citizenship. We also accept Muslims. Foolishly, I think, because, by their religion, they do not support our Constitution.
    Check your history. The US did not start taking Jews until after 1948, in fact around 1950. They were sending them back to Germany before that, even kids.

    And for a country based on genocide of natives by immigrants, its hilarious to hear the jawing about what other immigrants should support.

    Still waiting to hear which democratically elected country the US has supported in the Middle East.
    Immigration policies have changed on many occasions. Many Jews came to Canada and the USA in the late 1800's and early 1900's as well.
    And you are right, that prior to and in the early war years, boats full of immigrants were sent back.

    As for Hamas being supported by Israel, Hamas had a different political agenda when Israel supported it. It changed back around 1987 to become even more of a terrorist entity than the PLO.
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    It makes no difference.

    Before the intifada [literally a "shrugging off"], the Palestinians tried peaceful protests. They boycotted Israeli goods, engaged in commercial strikes and organized underground schools during extended curfews--all peaceful means of protest. It was a very empowering period for Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza and was greatly influenced by Gandhi (who is read widely in Palestine) and the struggle for freedom in South Africa.

    Israel responded to these tactics with Rabin's "broken bone" policy that crushed anybody caught throwing stones at tanks or engaging in any kind of resistance. Thousands of innocent activists we imprisoned in horrible conditions. In Ramallah, there was a place called the Mandela Institute that worked to bring attention torture and abuse of the over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. [There are still 11,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons, including women and children]

    At that time there were no Islamic groups dominating Palestinian politics. The oppressive military occupation of Israel has been intransigent regardless of secular and Islamic groups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Look at Dearborn Michigan. Arab Muslims now make up almost 50% of the population there.
    Are you saying that Muslims should not have moved to a predominantly Christian town?
    Can they declare it an independent sharia state with a need for a Muslim majority?
    They can lobby for Sharia Law, as is being done in Britain. But the United States is a sovereign nation, so they are limited in carving out a state.
    This was not the case with Israel, because prior to 1948, it was not a sovereign state.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    They can lobby for Sharia Law, as is being done in Britain. But the United States is a sovereign nation, so they are limited in carving out a state.
    This was not the case with Israel, because prior to 1948, it was not a sovereign state.
    No, and the immigrants had no rights. And the UN had no jurisdiction over land rights. It still doesn't. I don't know any country/people that believes the UN has the right to decide over who lives on their land, especially against the wish of the people.
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  32. #332  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    It makes no difference.

    Before the intifada [literally a "shrugging off"], the Palestinians tried peaceful protests. They boycotted Israeli goods, engaged in commercial strikes and organized underground schools during extended curfews--all peaceful means of protest. It was a very empowering period for Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza and was greatly influenced by Gandhi (who is read widely in Palestine) and the struggle for freedom in South Africa.

    Israel responded to these tactics with Rabin's "broken bone" policy that crushed anybody caught throwing stones at tanks or engaging in any kind of resistance. Thousands of innocent activists we imprisoned in horrible conditions. In Ramallah, there was a place called the Mandela Institute that worked to bring attention torture and abuse of the over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. [There are still 11,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons, including women and children]

    At that time there were no Islamic groups dominating Palestinian politics. The oppressive military occupation of Israel has been intransigent regardless of secular and Islamic groups.
    Pulease. The Palestinians never put their arms down. Do you think Arafat was into detente? The PLO was always scheming and carrying out terrorist acts since it was formed in 1964.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    They can lobby for Sharia Law, as is being done in Britain. But the United States is a sovereign nation, so they are limited in carving out a state.
    This was not the case with Israel, because prior to 1948, it was not a sovereign state.
    No, and the immigrants had no rights. And the UN had no jurisdiction over land rights. It still doesn't. I don't know any country/people that believes the UN has the right to decide over who lives on their land, especially against the wish of the people.
    Wrong! It was British controlled land. They were the law makers, like it or not. Britain and the UN made a decision how to carve out the land. If you don't like it. Too bad.
    There was NO sovereign state there until 1948.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  34. #334  
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    Who gives a shit what the British wanted? The UN still has no jurisdiction to give any land to anyone.
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  35. #335  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Pulease. The Palestinians never put their arms down. Do you think Arafat was into detente? The PLO was always scheming and carrying out terrorist acts since it was formed in 1964.
    I just gave you an example of what they did. And the response.
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  36. #336  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Pulease. The Palestinians never put their arms down. Do you think Arafat was into detente? The PLO was always scheming and carrying out terrorist acts since it was formed in 1964.
    I just gave you an example of what they did. And the response.
    They were doing both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Who gives a shit what the British wanted? The UN still has no jurisdiction to give any land to anyone.
    It was up to the Brits and the UN. It wasn't up to those who lived there. They were under British government.
    Gee, you are thick.
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  38. #338  
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    e.g. The two-state settlement, based on the pre-June 1967 borders, passed 164-7, with the US, Israel, Australia, the Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and the Marshall Islands voting in opposition.
    16. Stresses the need for:

    (a) The withdrawal of Israel from the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem;

    (b) The realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination and the right to their independent State;

    17. Also stresses the need for justly resolving the problem of Palestine refugees in conformity with its resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948;

    18. Calls upon the parties to accelerate direct peace negotiations towards the conclusion of a final peaceful settlement on the basis of relevant United Nations resolutions, especially of the Security Council, the terms of reference of the Madrid Conference, the road map and the Arab Peace Initiative”

    All the Arab states in the region along with the Palestinian observer backed the measure, which also condemned “all acts of violence and terror against civilians on both sides" and affirms the “right of all States in the region to live in peace within secure and internationally recognized borders." A related resolution on Jerusalem passed by a similarly wide margin

    1. Reiterates its determination that any actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem are illegal and therefore null and void and have no validity whatsoever, and calls upon Israel to cease all such illegal and unilateral measures;

    2. Stresses that a comprehensive, just and lasting solution to the question of the City of Jerusalem should take into account the legitimate concerns of both the Palestinian and Israeli sides and should include internationally guaranteed provisions to ensure the freedom of religion and of conscience of its inhabitants, as well as permanent, free and unhindered access to the holy places by the people of all religions and nationalities.
    So don't tell me Israel wants peace. They want pieces, ie the remaining 22% of land they don't [yet] occupy.
    On a recent trip to Ramallah, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, when reminded that Palestinians have already shown willingness to concede 78 percent of what they consider their rightful territory to Israel, reportedly shot back, "Forget the 78 percent. What is being negotiated now is the remaining 22 percent." The message was clear: Palestinians must be ready to give up more land.
    Moreover:
    According to a recent Amnesty International report, “In the first six
    months of 2008 Israel has expanded settlements in East Jerusalem and
    the West Bank at a faster rate than in the previous seven years.”
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  39. #339  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    Then Jews should not have moved to a predominantly Muslim state. Why didn't they go to America?
    WHOOOAAAA!!!

    WTF did you say!?! The Jews SHOULD NOT HAVE MOVED TO A PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM STATE??????

    You've just crossed the line, Sam. Everything you've ever said as a Muslim, for Muslims, has just been washed out.

    And from now on, it is fair game to start any post with:

    THE MUSLIMS SHOULD NOT HAVE MOVED TO A PREDOMINANTLY ____________.

    Hence, all Muslims can now leave Europe and the US and go back to where they came.

    Fair is fair, Sam.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    And people(americans in particular) should stop making remarks about the the lack of democracy in the arab world.
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    And for a country based on genocide of natives by immigrants, its hilarious to hear the jawing about what other immigrants should support.
    Let's stipulate that I am a hypocrite from a hypocritical country. Does that afffect the validity of the argument I made? The point I was making was that Jewish Israelis supporting Palestinian citizenship in Israel would be committing political suicide. Now, to counter that argument you have to either say "No, they would be fine under Muslim rule," or "Yes but so what, they deserve it." My hypocrisy or lack thereof is beside the point.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    WHOOOAAAA!!!

    WTF did you say!?! The Jews SHOULD NOT HAVE MOVED TO A PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM STATE??????

    You've just crossed the line, Sam. Everything you've ever said as a Muslim, for Muslims, has just been washed out.

    And from now on, it is fair game to start any post with:

    THE MUSLIMS SHOULD NOT HAVE MOVED TO A PREDOMINANTLY ____________.

    Hence, all Muslims can now leave Europe and the US and go back to where they came.

    Fair is fair, Sam.
    I'm merely remarking on his statement. If they think Muslims are so bad, why move to a Muslim state? Clearly, historically, the fact that following every pogrom in Europe, Jews have moved to Muslim states since the advent of Islam [before that, I don't know what they did], is evidence that Harold is clueless. Even today, all UN resolutions that would bring peace to the region are vetoed by US and Israel but signed by an overwhelming majority of countries. So who is the real obstacle here?

    At the time of the first aliyah, the Jewish population in Palestine was 2.5%. A little more than what it is in the US today. 80 years later they got 58% of the land as their state. In which universe does this make sense? Today they occupy 78% of it and are haggling over the 22% on which they have built and are building settlements. Meanwhile 100% of the native non-Jewish population is hostage and a sunstantial majority are refugees who are not permitted to return. Even to the supposedly "free" parts.

    Which would indicate that they are a singularly ungrateful people. If the Muslims had treated them like the Romans or Christians, where would they be? It would seem that being good to them is what has led to the present suffering of the Palestinians. Where a mother holds the dead bodies of four daughters and is thankful that the other daughters are alive. For now, at least.
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  42. #342  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    I'm merely remarking on his statement. If they think Muslims are so bad, why move to a Muslim state?
    Fucking bullshit! You are one pathetic human being, Sam.

    If Muslims think the Swedes, Danes, US, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. were so bad, why move there?

    Do you see how much of bigot you are?

    Harold is clueless.
    No Sam, YOU are fucking clueless. From all the hate-filled posts I've ever read from your brethren over the years, I always felt you wouldn't lower yourself to their level in this way, but clearly you are no different from your brethren.

    And, what's worse, is the you're a visiting Muslim living in the US.

    I'm aghast, Sam.
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    visiting Muslim living in the US.
    So does this mean my 1.5 billion Muslim brethren can make aliyah and install a sharia state in the US? Sweden? Denmark? After all, the whole world is dar al Islam. I'm sure we can find a couple of verses that fit. Or would that be ridiculous in the extreme?
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  44. #344  
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    Canadian human rights worker Eva Bartlett, writing in Gaza

    http://ingaza.wordpress.com/
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  45. #345  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    So does this mean my 1.5 billion Muslim brethren can make aliyah and install a sharia state in the US? Sweden? Denmark? After all, the whole world is dar al Islam. I'm sure we can find a couple of verses that fit. Or would that be ridiculous in the extreme?
    I'm now sure that the non-Muslims of the world can happily and most emphatically burn in hell, as far as you're concerned.

    What's really hilarious is that if the world were a Muslim state, you would be very unhappy, especially after taking full advantage of the freedoms you now enjoy and take for granted living in the US.

    And clearly, anything you say from now on will be based entirely on your hatred and bigotry of non-Muslims and your penchant for a world-wide Muslim state.
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  46. #346  
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    I'm now sure that the non-Muslims of the world can happily and most emphatically burn in hell, as far as you're concerned.
    No, but I will remember that Muslim blood is cheap, very very cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    No, but I will remember that Muslim blood is cheap, very very cheap.
    Muslim hatred is very costly.
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  48. #348  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Muslim hatred is very costly.
    Clearly, Muslims should follow the Jewish model for hatred.

    Maybe we can convince the Muslim nations to behave like Israel in their model for hatred.

    Would that be alright with you?
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  49. #349  
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    Palestinians and millions of Muslism the world over should convert to judeaism for the sake of one generation, immigrate to israel and colonize palestine at US tax payers expense(so its bankrupcy can be quick and mercifull), vote to end the apartheid regime and allow equal rights to all regardless of ethnicity or religion, give palestinians the right to return to their home of origin, en apartheid like in South Africa with a big Truth and Reconciliation approach, then convert back to islam or whatever(hopefully stop believing in the invisible man in the sky), then palestinians can remain in palestine within israel et others return from their country of origin, and live democratically.


    (I know it aint going to happen, just musing out loud)
     

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    Hehe, no I don't think such drastic measures are required. The way I see it, regardless of what happens in the short term, in the long term [100 years?] it will be one state. Its still too close to the nakba and Holocaust. As time passes, people will forget. Muslims and Jews have lived together for centuries, some friction is bound to happen with drastic changes in immigration, especially when combined with military force.

    You should read some of the Gaza diaries, contrary to the expectations of the Muslim haters, they are quite objective and rational

    This is a mother, who was on CNN yesterday. Her parents are in Gaza, she lives in the US
    http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

    Two friends correspond on a blog, one in Gaza, one in Sderot
    http://gaza-sderot.blogspot.com/

    A kid from Rafaah
    http://www.rafahkid.net/

    Mona, an activist from Gaza, not in Gaza atm.
    http://fromgaza.blogspot.com/

    MidEast Youth [server down temporarily due to high traffic]
    http://www.mideastyouth.com/

    Amira Hass is also publishing from Gaza about what is happening there right now.
    She's a child of Holocaust survivors and lives in Gaza to show her solidarity with the Palestinians. I hope she stays safe.
    Skip the talkbacks, the Israelis come off sounding like rabid fanatics.
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  51. #351  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    Palestinians and millions of Muslism the world over should convert to judeaism
    You could just abolish the Abrahamic religions, instead.
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  52. #352  
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    Because going from an Abrahamic philosophy, Judaism to an atheist philosophy, Zionism alongwith the label, athiest Jew, has been so much more beneficial to the Jewish people?
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  53. #353  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Offer them an Israeli citizenship.
    Human Rights = ON. Thank you.
    That would be great if the Arabs actually believed in human rights. They don't. Israel would soon become an Islamic republic where Jews would be second class citizens. Samcdkey thinks that would be fine. No sane Jew would go for it. Your "solution" is a prescription for more of the same in the Middle East.
    "The Arabs don't believe in human rights" is a racist statement.

    "Israel would soon become..." is your fear and poor opinion of others. Perhaps believing they must be so intolerant as yourself.

    "Samcdkey thinks" is pure projection by you. She said secular. She said offer Palestinians Israeli citizenship.

    "No sane Jew" again is your sad worldview reassuring itself others must be so low. In fact many sane Jews support one-state solution.

    "My solution" is not "more of the same". WTF? It's a prescription your own country took and proved good. And you're opposing it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Pong, look at the problems that Britain is having with Muslims. Your idea of letting those in who hate us makes life for many not very happy. I don't want to live in a land where Sharia Law is tolerated. You can't respect human rights and allow Sharia Law.
    Yes I looked at the problems. A few Muslims are creating problems. On the other hand, the country boasts 1.5 million British Muslims doing good. Muslims are Brits. Brits are Muslim. Perhaps you'll grasp this by reflecting that Francophones are Canadian and so are Hare Krishnas and white-haired Scandinavians. Now we see the problem in Britain is not really "us" vs. "them" - the problem is intolerance vs. tolerance. I know which side I'm on, and I glad we're winning.



    @samcdkey. Angry? It must be hard to contain right now. I imagine in your shoes I'd be flaming & banned already.

    They want to enrage you. They need this for their own rationale and it's a trap. You see how they justify real missile strikes: Palestinian hostility is intolerable. Therefore IDF must keep stamping down hatred until the only Palestinians left standing sanely harbour no ill will against the state of Israel. Of course it's crazy and can't even conclude in ovens.

    Don't get set up. We'll beat them by metagaming. Time is on our side. In the end, they'll believe they won and they'll be proud of their position.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  54. #354  
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    I'm actually trying to see if the Israeli position works. Presently, I'm doing it by holding a kids head underwater and demanding he stop flailing before I let him up for air.

    Strangely enough, he just doesn't get it. Insists on flailing. Oh well, I'll just hold his head down longer. That way, I can be sure HE will definitely get it.
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  55. #355  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Because going from an Abrahamic philosophy, Judaism to an atheist philosophy, Zionism alongwith the label, athiest Jew, has been so much more beneficial to the Jewish people?
    What is an 'atheist philosophy' and what does that have to do with abolishing the Abrahamic religions?

    Should we therefore believe as you do, the myths and superstitions of ancient cultures?

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  56. #356  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong

    @samcdkey. Angry? It must be hard to contain right now. I imagine in your shoes I'd be flaming & banned already.
    Why? Sam's shoes are safe and secure in her cat-infested apartment in the US.

    Now we see the problem in Britain is not really "us" vs. "them" - the problem is intolerance vs. tolerance.
    Islamic intolerance vs. mankind's tolerance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    "The Arabs don't believe in human rights" is a racist statement.
    Technically you're right I should have said Muslims.

    "Israel would soon become..." is your fear and poor opinion of others. Perhaps believing they must be so intolerant as yourself.
    No, it is based on the other Muslim states in the region. Why would it be different?
    "Samcdkey thinks" is pure projection by you. She said secular. She said offer Palestinians Israeli citizenship.
    She also said she agrees with the policies of Saudi Arabia whereby only Muslims should be citizens and free exercise of other religions is not allowed when there is a majority Muslim population. So no, it's not a projection.
    "No sane Jew" again is your sad worldview reassuring itself others must be so low. In fact many sane Jews support one-state solution.

    "My solution" is not "more of the same". WTF? It's a prescription your own country took and proved good. And you're opposing it.
    We are all entitled to our own opinion. And yes, I think it is a prescripion for more of the same because it is not a viable solution.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    What is an 'atheist philosophy' and what does that have to do with abolishing the Abrahamic religions?

    Should we therefore believe as you do, the myths and superstitions of ancient cultures?

    You've convinced me. Much better to promote hate through hate sites, put people in a gulag, experiment on them with famines and creative psychological torture and once you finish playing, drop some bombs on them and wipe them out. Not all of them, of course. Enough that you can do it all over again every so often. The masterly touch, is of course, to blame them for not accepting their conditions and forcing you to do all these things to them. That really gets them rolling.

    Where do I enroll?
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  59. #359  
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    A sweet homecoming!

    'We lost our homes for nothing,' says reservist from former Gaza settlement

    Three years after being evacuated from settlements in the Gaza Strip, some of the evacuees are now returning - in uniform.

    It's a very difficult feeling," said Ami Shaked, former chief security officer of the Gush Katif settlement bloc, whose son is a paratrooper. "This is the first war in which my son is defending me instead of me, him."

    But beyond that, "everything we said then has come true. What is happening today reopens the wounds. The thought arises that perhaps we shouldn't have given in; perhaps we should have been more insistent, ratcheted up the struggle another notch. But that's history."

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052596.html
    Imagine! 3 whole years @@!!! The wounds are being reopened!!! A visit to the old home!!! I bet they'll be so happy to see their old neighbors again! The memories of childhood!!! The poor things, forced to leave their homes and settle elsewhere. What a nightmare! Who will understand their plight?
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  60. #360  
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    The Palestine region was close to barren. 500,000 people lived there where 9 million live today. Plenty of room for the Jewish state there. There were around 50,000 Jews there back then too.
    Most of the land was desert or swamp. Only 25% was actually owned by 1947.
    Here is a picture of Tel Aviv before the Jews built a city there in 1909:
    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~dhershkowitz/pic117a.jpg

    Here is a German colony by Haifa in 1898:
    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~dhershkowitz/pic88-m.jpg

    More pictures of the Palestine region circa 1800s to early 1900s
    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~dhershkowitz/index2.html
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    A sweet homecoming!

    'We lost our homes for nothing,' says reservist from former Gaza settlement

    Three years after being evacuated from settlements in the Gaza Strip, some of the evacuees are now returning - in uniform.

    It's a very difficult feeling," said Ami Shaked, former chief security officer of the Gush Katif settlement bloc, whose son is a paratrooper. "This is the first war in which my son is defending me instead of me, him."

    But beyond that, "everything we said then has come true. What is happening today reopens the wounds. The thought arises that perhaps we shouldn't have given in; perhaps we should have been more insistent, ratcheted up the struggle another notch. But that's history."

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052596.html
    Imagine! 3 whole years @@!!! The wounds are being reopened!!! A visit to the old home!!! I bet they'll be so happy to see their old neighbors again! The memories of childhood!!! The poor things, forced to leave their homes and settle elsewhere. What a nightmare! Who will understand their plight?
    I blame Hamas for firing rockets into Israel. Any sane Muslim should do the same.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  62. #362  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Now we see the problem in Britain is not really "us" vs. "them" - the problem is intolerance vs. tolerance.
    Islamic intolerance vs. mankind's tolerance.
    No it's just intolerance vs. tolerance.
    I'm an atheist and I could never take your side against Islam. Notice who your comrades in hate are (Q)?



    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    "Israel would soon become..." is your fear and poor opinion
    it is based on the other Muslim states in the region. Why would it be different?
    I don't suggest a secular one-state course would be easy. Look at Lebanon or Turkey. Or Iraq. And we have monarchies, theocracies, democracies; different languages ethnicities etc. Do you think the (European) Jews are so exceptional they cannot share a country while most everybody else on Earth does?


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    (samcdkey) also said she agrees with the policies of Saudi Arabia whereby only Muslims should be citizens and free exercise of other religions is not allowed when there is a majority Muslim population.
    Let's check. Hello samcdkey? What is your position here? Do you believe an established majority has the right to dictate demographic fate, by say, favouring one group or filtering citizenship by religion, ethnicity, country of origin, etc?

    Suppose oil is struck big in Iceland, and the tiny population must import enormous numbers of foreign workers. Do the settled Icelanders have a right to deny citizenship even after generations of newcomers consider Iceland home?

    Suppose the oil knowhow happens to be Nigerian Yorubas. And these newcomers bring their perturbing religion and noisy drums and want to build a schoolhouse right beside their cricket green which already impinges on Iceland's oldest cemetery. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    More pictures of the Palestine region circa 1800s to early 1900s
    You call Ontario home? Have you really thought this all the way through?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    You call Ontario home? Have you really thought this all the way through?
    ********************
    Of course I have. Have you? I had grand parents or great grand parents who came from Latvia, Poland, Romania, and the middle east via England.
    I don't consider Latvia, Poland, Romania, the middle east or England MY home. It is Ontario.
    What was wrong with Jews migrating to the Holy Land when it was a) not even a sovereign nation b) fairly barren c) was a place to strive for a better life????
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  64. #364  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    ]
    I blame Hamas for firing rockets into Israel. Any sane Muslim should do the same.
    Then I must be insane. You see, I'm an Indian and we had a resistance movement for 200 years. And we were not even put into reservations, deprived of living in our homes or locked into a prison that strangled us and bombarded at with 2000 lb bombs. And yet, we still killed in a barbaric fashion, as many Britishers as we could. Took us 200 years to realise that violence doesn't work. But then a Gandhi doesn't come by everyday.

    You know, for all the American "understanding" if the UN were to give Texas "back" to Mexico and depopulate the non-Mexicans, I bet they wouldn't go very quietly. I bet they wouldn't use puny rockets either. Probably carpet bomb the Mexicans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Let's check. Hello samcdkey? What is your position here? Do you believe an established majority has the right to dictate demographic fate, by say, favouring one group or filtering citizenship by religion, ethnicity, country of origin, etc?
    You mean like voting against gay marriage? I think its the right of every sovereign state to decide their policies, like if they prefer to fry their prisoners or behead them. Of course, I may not agree with said policy, but then we can always boycott them if we really mean business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    ]
    I blame Hamas for firing rockets into Israel. Any sane Muslim should do the same.
    Then I must be insane. You see, I'm an Indian and we had a resistance movement for 200 years. And we were not even put into reservations, deprived of living in our homes or locked into a prison that strangled us and bombarded at with 2000 lb bombs. And yet, we still killed in a barbaric fashion, as many Britishers as we could. Took us 200 years to realise that violence doesn't work. But then a Gandhi doesn't come by everyday.

    You know, for all the American "understanding" if the UN were to give Texas "back" to Mexico and depopulate the non-Mexicans, I bet they wouldn't go very quietly. I bet they wouldn't use puny rockets either. Probably carpet bomb the Mexicans.
    Again, there was no established country in the Palestine region prior to 1948. The UN can't decide on countries that already exist.
    However, if a terror group in Mexico decides to take Texas back, and the government of Mexico didn't go after the terrorist group as it sent bombs into Texas, Mexico would be flattened like a pancake by the US.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  67. #367  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater

    Again, there was no established country in the Palestine region prior to 1948. The UN can't decide on countries that already exist.
    However, if a terror group in Mexico decides to take Texas back, and the government of Mexico didn't go after the terrorist group as it sent bombs into Texas, Mexico would be flattened like a pancake by the US.
    Guess what? There was no "India" either. So your argument may work on others, but my history is different. Fact is, we got independence in 1947, same year the Palestinians were promised theirs.

    Can you tell me what gives the UN jurisdiction to decide how countries "exist"?
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  68. #368  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater

    Again, there was no established country in the Palestine region prior to 1948. The UN can't decide on countries that already exist.
    However, if a terror group in Mexico decides to take Texas back, and the government of Mexico didn't go after the terrorist group as it sent bombs into Texas, Mexico would be flattened like a pancake by the US.
    Guess what? There was no "India" either. So your argument may work on others, but my history is different. Fact is, we got independence in 1947, same year the Palestinians were promised theirs.
    The Palestinians did get their independence too. They were awarded part of the Partition, but they turned it down.
    As for India, the nation was created for those who lived there at the time it was created, not 50 years or 100 years earlier.
    Britain had jurisdiction. They handed it over to the UN. Simple.
    And there was a Jewish majority in the Jewish governed part of the partition by 1947. You conveniently want to pretend that doesn't matter.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  69. #369  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    The Palestinians did get their independence too. They were awarded part of the Partition, but they turned it down.
    As for India, the nation was created for those who lived there at the time it was created, not 50 years or 100 years earlier.
    Britain had jurisdiction. They handed it over to the UN. Simple.
    And there was a Jewish majority in the Jewish governed part of the partition by 1947. You conveniently want to pretend that doesn't matter.
    I don't consider immigrants as having a stake in a nationalist movement. Do you think if a bunch of Pashtuns had migrated to India in the years before independence, we would have given them a bit of the country because there are Pashtuns there?
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  70. #370  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    The Palestinians did get their independence too. They were awarded part of the Partition, but they turned it down.
    As for India, the nation was created for those who lived there at the time it was created, not 50 years or 100 years earlier.
    Britain had jurisdiction. They handed it over to the UN. Simple.
    And there was a Jewish majority in the Jewish governed part of the partition by 1947. You conveniently want to pretend that doesn't matter.
    I don't consider immigrants as having a stake in a nationalist movement. Do you think if a bunch of Pashtuns had migrated to India in the years before independence, we would have given them a bit of the country because there are Pashtuns there?
    If there was a majority of them in certain regions. Let me know what you know about Dhaka. Should be good for a laugh or two at your hypocrisy, of course.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  71. #371  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater

    If there was a majority of them in certain regions. Let me know what you know about Dhaka. Should be good for a laugh or two at your hypocrisy, of course.
    You see? Even with the consent of the people there were two massacres at the idea of a partition, 1947 and 1972. And this was without any foreign immigrants. If the Jews would have come to India with the expectation of getting a Jewish state, they would have all been killed. As Europeans, they would have even less of a stake than the two indigenous Muslim populations.
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  72. #372  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater

    If there was a majority of them in certain regions. Let me know what you know about Dhaka. Should be good for a laugh or two at your hypocrisy, of course.
    You see? Even with the consent of the people there were two massacres at the idea of a partition, 1947 and 1972. And this was without any foreign immigrants. If the Jews would have come to India with the expectation of getting a Jewish state, they would have all been killed. As Europeans, they would have even less of a stake than the two indigenous Muslim populations.
    No country was formed without might versus right and negotiations. If they Jews came to an unpopulated part of India and asked for a Jewish state, they might have got one. The Muslims certainly did.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  73. #373  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    You call Ontario home? Have you really thought this all the way through?
    ********************
    Of course I have. Have you? I had grand parents or great grand parents who came from Latvia, Poland, Romania, and the middle east via England.
    I don't consider Latvia, Poland, Romania, the middle east or England MY home. It is Ontario.
    I differ. I believe your ancestors were entitled to be in any of those places they traveled through or settled. All of those places are home. We've always had the right to move and call home where we like and we always will. The right didn't recently crystallize around you personally for your particular time and place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    What was wrong with Jews migrating to the Holy Land when it was a) not even a sovereign nation b) fairly barren c) was a place to strive for a better life????
    There's nothing wrong with that. Though it had an inauspicious beginning with crazy baggage, and hasn't improved has it?

    There's nothing wrong with those people overcrowded in a diminishing Gaza calling Israel home either. They have a right to, so long as they aren't denying other people's rights. Well, technically they may even transgress the rights of those who transgress theirs, barring malice. Ideally, if they won't share then we divert the stream both ways. Anyway can anybody seriously imagine Palestinian Israelis overrunning government and enacting all sorts of discriminatory laws (e.g. Jews under Islamic law), even if they grew to a majority some day? I mean even Iran guarantees a Jewish seat in parliament. The fears are fantastic.

    I take issue with Jews unloading their black hole onto other people. I think it's the rotten core of our trouble. But world embarrassment prevents us from honestly resolving the holocaust. And now conceited xenophobes of otherwise upright nations defend the notion of "Israel for Jews" because it's front line in their own kind of nationalism. Hitler would be cheering them on.


    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    I don't consider immigrants as having a stake in a nationalist movement. Do you think if a bunch of Pashtuns had migrated to India in the years before independence, we would have given them a bit of the country because there are Pashtuns there?
    Okay, that answers my earlier question better. It appears to me you share values with that white guy in Manitoba who speaks the coded message, "Canada for Canadians". Am I hearing you right?
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    Sam. Here is something I just dug up when refreshing myself about the partition:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...myths/mf3.html
    The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan.

    Pogo, without getting redundant, My Case For Israel As An Atheist:
    http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspo...s-atheist.html
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  75. #375  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    Sam. Here is something I just dug up when refreshing myself about the partition:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...myths/mf3.html
    The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan.

    Pogo, without getting redundant, My Case For Israel As An Atheist:
    http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspo...s-atheist.html
    The partition of India did not happen until the Indians agreed to it. Not all of them did and Gandhi did his fast unto death thingy, but ultimately, the violence compelled him to agree.

    For the record, it was the worst decision ever made, in my opinion. We waste 25% of our budget on stuff related to fighting with each other. And since people were still killing each other even after Gandhi agreed, he should have just said no and gone and locked himself up for awhile. We'd have got over it, instead of getting worked up over it for so long.

    Anyway, I've been trying to think like Hamas because I'm tired of the same ole discussions.

    The way I see it, Israel has some things that are for it and some things that work against it.

    First, it has no natural resources, it depends on industry and markets outside itself. Second, the good will of Jewish people around the world, not all of whom are rabid Islamophobes with racist attitudes to Arabs and third, its social stability.

    Now if I were Hamas and was not just a dumb Islamist, but a smart nationalist, I would be extremely worried about getting my state since Israel is sitting on 78% of the land and building settlements on the rest.

    So I would want to undermine the advantages of Israel in order to get what I want.
    In order to do so, I would have to do several things. To attack its "Jewishness" I would have to ruin Israel's image in the Jewish world. To attack its military advantage I would have to undermine its global opinion and hence its markets. And finally to attack its stability, I would have to make it an undesirable place to immigrate to. So, it would seem, rather than a suicidal fanatic, Hamas is playing chess with Israel to get its land. I bet many Jews leave Israel because its not safe. I bet global opinion as yet does not affect Israeli markets because no one wants to piss off the US [but this is dependent on the US remaining economically strong]. And I bet many Jews who watch children dying lose their support for Israel.

    edit: I thought I would add that Americans might feel uncomfortable about supporting a state based on religion. But I think most arguments I have read about that are Jews vs Jews, most of whom are Israelis, or Europeans, only a few post Zionists are American. And then I remembered the Americans support several dictatorial regimes, so a Jewish state is not a problem.

    What do you think?
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    I think you are an insane Muslim. And as far as Muslims go, you are in the majority.

    You may also "think" the partition of India and Pakistan was a bad decision. But India and Pakistan both exist now. Israel exists too. There is no Palestine because the Palestinians do not want a state that is next Israel.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  77. #377  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    I think you are an insane Muslim. And as far as Muslims go, you are in the majority.

    You may also "think" the partition of India and Pakistan was a bad decision. But India and Pakistan both exist now. Israel exists too. There is no Palestine because the Palestinians do not want a state that is next Israel.
    So I'm wrong. Hmm okay, its possible. I generally go by the premise that people are not as stupid as other people make them out to be and not as irrational either, but have real concrete reasons for the things they do.
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  78. #378  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeater
    I think you are an insane Muslim. And as far as Muslims go, you are in the majority.

    You may also "think" the partition of India and Pakistan was a bad decision. But India and Pakistan both exist now. Israel exists too. There is no Palestine because the Palestinians do not want a state that is next Israel.
    So I'm wrong. Hmm okay, its possible. I generally go by the premise that people are not as stupid as other people make them out to be and not as irrational either, but have real concrete reasons for the things they do.
    There is no moral justification to be a terrorist.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  79. #379  
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    Ask the Irgun what they think of that. :P

    Or Nelson Mandela!
    For me, Nelson Mandela is a hero, a saintly figure, a role model.

    In contrast, the United States government still considers Mandela and his African National Congress (ANC) as terrorists.

    Even today, ANC’s former and current members still show up on America’s travel and terrorism watch lists.

    Nelson Mandela, one of the ANC “terrorists,” still needs to get a special waiver to enter the United States.

    “It is shameful that the United States still treats Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress this way based solely on its designation as a terrorist organisation by the old apartheid South African regime,” said Howard Berman, chairperson of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs.

    http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/10/163344.php
    Too funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Ask the Irgun what they think of that. :P

    Or Nelson Mandela!
    For me, Nelson Mandela is a hero, a saintly figure, a role model.

    In contrast, the United States government still considers Mandela and his African National Congress (ANC) as terrorists.

    Even today, ANC’s former and current members still show up on America’s travel and terrorism watch lists.

    Nelson Mandela, one of the ANC “terrorists,” still needs to get a special waiver to enter the United States.

    “It is shameful that the United States still treats Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress this way based solely on its designation as a terrorist organisation by the old apartheid South African regime,” said Howard Berman, chairperson of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs.

    http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/10/163344.php
    Too funny.
    I think you are too stupid.
    Gaza and the West Bank are not in sovereign territory. The fate for those two territories are up for grabs still.
    Israel is not an apartheid state. If the West Bank and Israel were in Israel, then I would say it is.
    As for Irgun. Again, this was prior to a sovereign state being created where none existed. As for political terrorism. I'm on the fence. Lots of political terrorism occurred prior to the creation of the USA.
    Targeting civilians however is morally unacceptable.
    To me, Islam is a cancer on humanity. Just to even consider suicide bombings makes me wish Muslims would just move to another planet.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  81. #381  
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    Hmm so Irgun is alright because there was no Israel and Hamas is evil because there is no Palestine. You're very young, aren't you? Heh, I just watched on the TV that some IDF soldiers died in Gaza. 500 people died in Gaza maybe over 3000 injured and now this. Probably 18 year olds. What a fuck up. Seems like we should do something about all these war mongering right wingers who are so anxious to send people out to die for their political benefits. Maybe make it compulsory for them to be at the head of the charge. I bet the desire for war would drop if they were the first targets. What a waste of life and people.

    Did you know that first known terrorists in the world were Jews? Look them up, they were called the Sicarii.
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  82. #382  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Hmm so Irgun is alright because there was no Israel and Hamas is evil because there is no Palestine. You're very young, aren't you? Heh, I just watched on the TV that some IDF soldiers died in Gaza. 500 people died in Gaza maybe over 3000 injured and now this. Probably 18 year olds. What a fuck up. Seems like we should do something about all these war mongering right wingers who are so anxious to send people out to die for their political benefits. Maybe make it compulsory for them to be at the head of the charge. I bet the desire for war would drop if they were the first targets. What a waste of life and people.

    Did you know that first known terrorists in the world were Jews? Look them up, they were called the Sicarii.
    I'm 47. You sound like a 16 year old.
    I also said political targets are OK depending on the circumstances. Irgun did target civilians as well. Not many. But that was wrong.
    If Hamas wants Israel to stop the attack, it is simple. Israel does not want a band aid solution.
    I don't want to see any deaths, but as long as Hamas lobs missiles into Israel, this war is inevitable.
    "You almost never get the pleasure of seeing that you won the argument in real time. People just don't like to publicly change their minds. They change their minds in private." -Sam Harris
     

  83. #383  
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    You ever hear this?


    Ho Chi Minh is reputed to have said during the Vietnam war, "You will kill 10 of my men, I will kill one of yours, and you will tire of it first."
    How many men is Israel willing to sacrifice? The problem with fighting men who have nothing to lose is...they have nothing to lose.
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  84. #384  
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    Seems everybody posting here delights in intellectual conflict and the real conflict as well. So, if this is what people really want, the arguments are devices to invite conflict. This thread is an exercise not intended to conclude. And my interjections are unwelcome.

    Anybody genuinely interested in ending conflict? Even if one has to find another object to ...express upon?
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    This is developing into a flame-fest. Please exchange emails if you wish to berate each other -leave The Science Forum out of it.
     

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