Thread: Afganistan - The Kite Runner

The Kite Runner

I saw this movie last night and honnestly I'm not sure I'm against Afgan war anymore.

Taliban is such a disaster that I would rather be in favour of instauring a democracy down there. Pure application of Islam law which I had forgotten long ago is absolutly a shame for humanity.

When you think that people do excecute for example a woman in public for adultery with stones. It is quite something. It is usually followed by a bullet in the head and saluted by a public. Waouw. Looks like were back at Jesus times.

Unfortunately, installing a democracy is not like installing a washing machine. As General Petraeus said recently, you have to negotiate with your enemies. You can't kill them all, and you can't make them all suddenly love democracy. There will have to be compromise even with things you despise.

Originally Posted by timel

The Kite Runner

I saw this movie last night and honnestly I'm not sure I'm against Afgan war anymore.

Taliban is such a disaster that I would rather be in favour of instauring a democracy down there. Pure application of Islam law which I had forgotten long ago is absolutly a shame for humanity.

When you think that people do excecute for example a woman in public for adultery with stones. It is quite something. It is usually followed by a bullet in the head and saluted by a public. Waouw. Looks like were back at Jesus times.

The book is listed under fiction.

Some of the plot's turns and twists may be somewhat implausible, but Hosseini has created characters that seem so real that one almost forgets that The Kite Runner is a novel and not a memoir.

http://www.amazon.com/Kite-Runner-Kh.../dp/1594480001

It is perhaps a bit sensationalized from the admittedly atrocious state of affairs in Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Unfortunately, installing a democracy is not like installing a washing machine. As General Petraeus said recently, you have to negotiate with your enemies. You can't kill them all, and you can't make them all suddenly love democracy. There will have to be compromise even with things you despise.

With in any society there are percentages of the people catered to regardless of the form of government. There are others that are ignorantly (know nothing else) satisfied with whatever exist. When the government fails, is over thrown or defeated, there is going to be some retribution by those who lost power or those that were suppressed.

The concept of war until very recently, was to beat your opponent into submission, with out regard to innocents and certainly no compromise was offered when surrender and a truce made. Japan and Germany very good examples.

I feel sure lower level negotiations occur with any Country that desires or request them. North Korea, Iran and we did offer Afghanistan a way out of war. Turn over OBL and his top people and go on with whatever...I might add the United Nations has offered a platform for any leader to speak, since 1947.

timel; 'Honor Killings' or to lessor degrees punishment for disobeying the perceived meanings of the Koran are very common in all Countries where Islamic Law and/or Muslim Law is based on the Koran, think 57 such states. The United Nations claims some 5,000 killings happen each year and say NONE ever are prosecuted. Personally I feel this figure is much higher and those punished in some manner may be near the total of females. In the US and most the Industrialized world, those crimes are prosecuted, but rarely receive the same punishment non Muslims would (extenuating circumstances). In India, where 20% of the 1.5 Billion are Muslim, I understand special courts exist for domestic issues and the desire of Muslims around the world. It won't happen...

You being from France and having spent five years in Lebanon, I find it hard to believe this issue is new to you.

Originally Posted by jackson33

You being from France and having spent five years in Lebanon, I find it hard to believe this issue is new to you.

My memory is still young. I was aware but forgot and medias who are now for most, against war, don't show this aspects anymore of muslim world.
It is unfortunate, I believe, that they don't.

Lebanon is very protected, almost half is Christian and the other half is pretty Muslim. Lebanon is actualy an important country in terms of keeping some democracy in middle east.



free radical : the book might be fiction, but this excecutions in stadiums are quite real. It can be else where.


http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NFBsVbwBgLU
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Khjh6B55Htc
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=uGaXxt...eature=related

it looks like middle age.
I remember 4-5 y. ago when NATO invasion started in Afgan. I saw this video of the public excecution of a woman in a stadium full of people, she was shot a bullet in the head.



ok Bunbury let's say we go on negociations with them?

I'm still thinking about it but if this people consider Sharia is the only way, muslim law and nothing else.
Where can talk happens with this people applying it? How can they even accept to join the Governement if we forbid them to apply this laws they stongly believe in? (we setup the Governement)

Don't ask me, ask Gen. Petraeus.

Petraeus said negotiations with insurgents willing to consider reconciliation could reduce violence by isolating hard-core militants, which is what occurred in Iraq's Anbar province when Sunni tribesmen joined U.S. forces against al Qaeda.

(Washington Post article)

Evidently Petraeus, who has been a professor of international relations, and is considered a top intellectual as well as a top soldier, does not see the Taliban as a homogeneous group of extremists, as you seem to. As one who must be extremely knowledgeable about the capabilities and the limitations of military power, and of diplomacy, he seems to think this is a case where the latter can be effective.

Originally Posted by jackson33

Originally Posted by Bunbury

Unfortunately, installing a democracy is not like installing a washing machine. As General Petraeus said recently, you have to negotiate with your enemies. You can't kill them all, and you can't make them all suddenly love democracy. There will have to be compromise even with things you despise.

With in any society there are percentages of the people catered to regardless of the form of government. There are others that are ignorantly (know nothing else) satisfied with whatever exist. When the government fails, is over thrown or defeated, there is going to be some retribution by those who lost power or those that were suppressed.

The concept of war until very recently, was to beat your opponent into submission, with out regard to innocents and certainly no compromise was offered when surrender and a truce made. Japan and Germany very good examples.

I feel sure lower level negotiations occur with any Country that desires or request them. North Korea, Iran and we did offer Afghanistan a way out of war. Turn over OBL and his top people and go on with whatever...I might add the United Nations has offered a platform for any leader to speak, since 1947.

It's not that simple. In order to educate people, you always have to negotiate with their ignorance. They can't go from zero to educated in one step. It's too much too fast. It's like teaching college level calculus to a kindergartener.

Japan and Germany were just as educated as we are. Japan maybe not quite as uniformly (I'm pretty sure some people were still illiterate, but don't quote me on that), and Germany was actually considered more educated than us.

A bullet probably wouldn't kill you if it only hit you at 20 mph.

It doesn't matter whether the change is or isn't in a good direction if it happens too fast. It's the speed of the impact that kills you or doesn't kill you, not the type of impact.

The Kite Runner panders (quite successfully) to people's wish for political certainty. Good guys and bad guys, stereotypes, you know. I think the author hoped all along this would sell in US cinema.

About kites. The Taliban did infamously ban kite flying in some areas, and at some festivals. Headline news, then. On the face of it this seems like classic Disney bad-guy behavior - "Hey you kids, stop having fun!" But know that banned were fighting kites - a low swooping weapon with taut, sharply abrasive lines that saw into any cable or flesh they touch. Every year there were scores of deaths (mostly small children at parks) and hundreds of serious injuries, as well as property damage. Anyway, I've had a pair of Mounties order me to lower my kite (at a "kite park" it exceeded the federal i.e. all-Canada altitude limit) because some urban helicopter pilot complained, and this did not reveal to me the state regime's dastardly nature.

kojax; Japan and Germany were beat to the point of surrender. I feel sure they were as literate as Americans or any of the allied forces, though I have no idea why that was important.

My point on Iraq, was this change in style for war. They were not defeated into surrender, not sure they ever did or would have. Those not wanting to surrender for any reason or insurgents from other places wanting power in the area or simply opposing US/British forces or even for cultural differences, managed to get local support. The US didn't expect this...

Bun; Same answer, the 'Surge' was designed to show enough force to make negotiations possible. Only when the locals felt the US/Allies were intent on victory and not going to leave them undefended, would any talk have worked.

Originally Posted by Pong

The Kite Runner panders (quite successfully) to people's wish for political certainty. Good guys and bad guys, stereotypes, you know. I think the author hoped all along this would sell in US cinema.

You're being pessimistic. It shows many aspect, such as the educated aspects of this people and the potential they have. I have experienced the same thing with Iranian friends who quited their countries because they wouldn't fit with the system.
It remains that this countries show a lot of potential and many people were well educated and just wanted freedom and not to have to choose between Communist and Islamist.

I didn't know about fighting Kites. Quite interresting.
By the way, it doesn't take much to phreak an helicopter pilot. They might have good reasons too


Bunbury; I anderstand your point about the General; But still, you are defending his views and I don't see how there can be negociations. In first part negociation implies that someone has to compromise.
Allies wanting to instaure a Democracy and Islamist who live by the Qur'an.

Negociation might start if you could cut Islamist strenght. Weapon feeding and intelligence. I guess.

Finaly I don't know if you can associate Irak to Afganistan in terms of militias.

About kites. The Taliban did infamously ban kite flying in some areas, and at some festivals. Headline news, then

Sooooooo the Taliban did a GOOOOOOD thing banning kite flying??
Just like it was a good thing to ban music, order women to wear Burkas (yeah, I know this is just to protect the honor of the women....blablabla), restrict access to information (in other countries this is known as "censorship), restrict access to education (both interms of what can be tought and who can be tought) andsoonandsoforth.

Originally Posted by jackson33

kojax; Japan and Germany were beat to the point of surrender. I feel sure they were as literate as Americans or any of the allied forces, though I have no idea why that was important.

My point on Iraq, was this change in style for war. They were not defeated into surrender, not sure they ever did or would have. Those not wanting to surrender for any reason or insurgents from other places wanting power in the area or simply opposing US/British forces or even for cultural differences, managed to get local support. The US didn't expect this...

The problem with your reasoning here is that the Iraqi resistance isn't just about Iraq. Nazi resistance would only have been about Germany, Japanese resistance would only have been about Japan.

Taking Berlin, and requiring the Emporer of Japan to formally announce his surrender on the radio solved those problems pretty fast.

The "beat them solidly" logic didn't work for the Germans on France, because the French knew their allies were coming to save them, so there was hope. I mean, where do you think that "Viva La Resistance !!" saying comes from?

The amount of bloodshed the Nazis carried out in their attempts to hold the Vatican is legendary, and it didn't work at stopping the insurgency there either.


Now :

Imagine if all we took was Hamburg Germany. Not Berlin. How easily would we have held just one city? Iraq is just one city/province in Islam.

Unless you want to take Mecca, we can probably do infinity harm to the Iraqis and it won't stop them.

Bun; Same answer, the 'Surge' was designed to show enough force to make negotiations possible. Only when the locals felt the US/Allies were intent on victory and not going to leave them undefended, would any talk have worked.

That's a very sound point. I bet a lot of people in Iraq are worried that we'll do to them what we did to our supporters in Vietnam. At the very least we'd better be prepared to open our doors for a lot of immigration if we pull out this time.

Originally Posted by Zitterbewegung

About kites. The Taliban did infamously ban kite flying in some areas, and at some festivals. Headline news, then

Sooooooo the Taliban did a GOOOOOOD thing banning kite flying??
Just like it was a good thing to (nasty nasty nasty)?

If you must believe that shabby government pure evil, I should not attempt illumination.