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Thread: The machines are rigged!

  1. #1 The machines are rigged! 
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    Hi Everybody! I'm new, just poppin' over for a hit and run, from Blackboxvoting.org 'cuz boy oh boy the shit is hittin' the fan! Did y'all see the news that Diebold election systems (the guys that gave Bush the 2004 election) has finally admitted a code error (it's been in the machines for ten years!!!) that drops votes???? OMG!

    I mean, like I totally knew they had rigged the machines but I never thought they'd admit it! I wonder how long they have been trying to hide it. I guess it depends if the code glitch was intentional or not! If it's intentional, is it treason? Just a thought!!

    Anyway, if you know any other message boards where I could post about this that'd be great. I mean, this is democracy, right? Or at least our votes should count! OMG!!! I cannot believe this shit. Here's the poop:


    A voting system used in 34 states contains a critical programming error that can cause votes to be dropped while being electronically transferred from memory cards to a central tallying point, the manufacturer acknowledges.

    The problem was identified after complaints from Ohio elections officials following the March primary there, but the logic error that is the root of the problem has been part of the software for 10 years, said Chris Riggall, a spokesman for Premier Election Solutions, formerly known as Diebold.

    The flawed software is on both touch screen and optical scan voting machines made by Premier and the problem with vote counts is most likely to affect larger jurisdictions that feed many memory cards to a central counting database rapidly.


    I mean, like totally bogus. Kerry is the one who woulda done better in large municipalities, natch, just like Obama. The repubs do better in small towns, where the bug isn't a prob. The whole thing is so damned cooked!

    'K - just thought y'all should know. The stuff I put in blue is in the Washington Post but it's totally all over the news. AP, USA today, NYT, everywhere.

    OBAMA '08 WOOT WOOT WOOT!!!!


    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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  3. #2  
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    Valley girl, you sholey is makin dis up - "Chris Riggall, a spokesman for Premier Election Solutions, formerly known as Diebold"

    Riggall!!!

    I's votin by mail. Y'all can truss the post office.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
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    Hello Caligirl,

    The programming of a computer to tally votes and save the totals doesn't sound as if it should be all that difficult. I wonder if any of the programmer types here could speculate on how such a simple sounding program could be so error-prone. Is it really much more complicated than it seems? If so the checking and verification should have been appropriately rigorous. There is no excuse for weak quality control, when the result of programming errors is the disenfranchisement of voters.

    I believe this country has the technical ability to make these machines work right, so the fact that they didn't leaves an ugly suspicion that they were deliberately rigged.

    Welcome to the board, BTW. Stick around.
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  5. #4  
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    Hey Bunberry! Are you voting this fall? I hope you're voting for Obama!!!!

    You're right! It shouldn't be hard to program a machine to count! In fact it's so frikkin easy that half the reported probs with the machines look like people uploading FALSE numbers to be counted and the machines count the extra numbers just like they are told to!

    Check this out from the florida 2000 election, where it was more then hanging chads:

    What we know from the memos can be summarised as follows:

    - Two memory cards were uploaded from Volusia Couny's precinct 216, the second one was loaded sometime close to 2am in the morning. It automatically replaced the first card's results and reduced Gore's total by 16,022 votes and added several thousand votes to Bush plus a variety of minor candidates;
    - Both memory cards loaded into the system clean and without errors, indicating (contrary to the official line) that they were not faulty;
    - After the error was noticed the original card was reloaded and the mistake was rectified;
    - The error was introduced in such a way that the total number of votes remained unchanged (again something that could not happen by chance.);
    - According to the technical boffins, the chance of the memory card being corrupted and still passing the checksum error test are less than 60,000 to 1;
    - The technical managers at Diebold Election Systems considered it a reasonable possibility that the second card was part of deliberate conspiracy to rig the election results.

    Well thank God they caught it! I wonder if this happened anywhere else and WASN'T caught (Ya think?), I mean, would a person who had access and stuff to rig one machine stop there? And diebold just stinks, stinks, stinks! Look at this MAJOR error that was figured out in 2006:

    Severe security flaws revealed in Diebold touch screen systems.

    In the worst case scenario, the architectural weaknesses incorporated in these voting terminals allow a sophisticated attacker to develop an "offense in depth" approach in which each compromised layer will also become the guardian against clean-up efforts in the other layers. This kind of deep attack is extremely persistent and it is noteworthy that the layers can conceal the contamination very effectively should the attacker wish that. A quite natural strategy in these types of situations is to penetrate, modify and make everything look normal. Well documented viral attacks exist in similar systems deploying interception and falsification of hashcode calculations used to verify integrity in the higher application levels to avoid detection. The threelevel attack is the worst possible attack. However, each layer can also be used to deploy a stand-alone attack. The TSx systems examined appear to offer opportunities for the three-level attack as well as the stand-alone attacks. It is important to understand that these attacks are permanent in nature, surviving through the election cycles. Therefore, the contamination can happen at any point of the device's life cycle and remain active and undetected from the point of contamination on through multiple election cycles and even software upgrade cycles.

    June 2006 Diebold AccuVote TS Leflore, Jackson Counties, Mississippi.


    Jesus H. Christ! I mean, there are so many problems, and each one is worse than the next. Take a look at this list of documented errors http://www.votersunite.org/info/Dieboldinthenews.pdf and read through a couple pages. It just goes on, and on, and on. And the scary ones are the ones like I put in blue, where you can program the damn thing to do whatever you want and its invisible and permanent.

    And that's just diebold! That doesn't even talk about the other major vendors, they stink too, but not as much.

    OBAMA 08 WOOT WOOT WOOT!!
    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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  6. #5  
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    Caligirl,

    This issue of electronic voting fraud does not get the attention it warrants because it requires an attention span of more than nine seconds to assimilate the facts. Like most Americans, I find a wall of prose a bit intimidating. So, here's a suggestion - give us a succinct list of the issues. Then maybe you'll get some debate going.

    Bullet points:
    • What happened?
      Who dunnit?
      Where's the evidence?
      What should be done?


    And yes I'm voting, but in this free country I don't have to tell you whom I'm voting for.

    Yesterday we took the bus downtown and walked to the Pepsi center. They've got a steel fence around the whole damn thing and we stood in line to go in through security and a secret service guy said if you got no press card you ain't going in noway nohow. So we walked on Invesco Field which was a hot long drag across I-25 and went to the Presidential Experience which didn't require a press card to get - just fifteen dollars - and it was a big disappointment. Inside the tent we stood inline to go inside a mock up of the oval office. It did have the desk in it that came from a British ship - don't recall all the details (that darn attention span thing again). Then you could sign up for a silent auction for signed books and photos of Bill and Hillary, Obama and so on. Then you could stand next to a cardboard cutout of McCain or Obama and get your picture taken. There was a line for Obama. No line for McCain.

    Then found there was a shuttle bus we could have taken to Invesco so we took it back downtown and had a cold one and some fish tacos at Rock Bottom Brewery. Kept looking around for Democrat celebs but Paris wasn't there. They've really spiffed up this cowtown though.

    Damn, I love this country.

    BTW it's Bunbury with a u. :P
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  7. #6  
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    http://www.freeforall.tv/

    I can't help it if your attention span is short!! Maybe this movie will help!

    WATCH IT! IT'S FREE!!!
    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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  8. #7  
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    Here's a Lou Dobbs segment. I'm going to vote by mail too, like Windy, but what's to guarantee my vote won't get "lost" in the mail?

    http://www.votersunite.org/info/Vend...iningVideo.asp
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  9. #8 Re: The machines are rigged! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caligirl
    I mean, like I totally knew they had rigged the machines but I never thought they'd admit it!
    The power and importance of your thesis are diminished by your apparent inability to distinguish between incompetence and machiavellian intent.
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  10. #9  
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    Whether it was incompetence or conspiracy, it is inexcusable. The importance of fair elections can hardly be overstated.
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  11. #10  
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    Exactly. So it is important that those raising the issue not create a ready opportunity for their message to be ignored because they crossed the line bwetween teaching and preaching.
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  12. #11  
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    You lost me, dude. I'm not teaching OR preaching, Just raising awareness! Diebold admitted that their machines are coded so they drop votes in Democratic jurisdictions. This is just the most recent of a long line of you've-got-to-be-fukkin-kidding-me reports! But this is the first time they ADMITTED that they screwed up! Ohio is suing them!

    Watch the video! You'll be glad you did. THEN we'll talk about intent!!! It's free! At least watch the first fifteen minutes. Isn't democracy worth fifteen minutes of your time??

    http://www.freeforall.tv/

    Go on, watch it!!! I dare you to!! I double dog dare you!

    And guess what? Other countries are starting to use Diebold vote systems in pilot trials, too!!! I saw it in England a couple years ago!
    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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    Why don that Opi feller talk normal, hunh? You’all writin a thesis? I didn’t think so. You feisty tho. Them repugnicans up to nogood. Tryin to get thesselves a bit lagniappe on the side.

    Caligal, you single ain’tcher? I got four acres on the bayou an a nice boat. My woman run off to baton Rouge with my best dog and my truck. You got a truck?
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  14. #13  
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    This conversation goes from bizarre to downright weird! And I guess this political board is kinda dead, cuz no one seems to care about the issue! So I googled for some other sites, if you want to follow this story head here to the Politics board:

    http://www.usmessageboard.com/

    where I just posted and got a reply in like a minute! Much more active, I hope the conversation is more productive there!

    See ya!
    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caligirl
    You lost me, dude. I'm not teaching OR preaching, Just raising awareness! [color=red]
    Then pay attention. You are teaching. I applaud that. Teaching often involves passing on information. It is often easier to do if the teacher is enthusiastic about their topic. You have succeded in that also.

    However, your style - emotional, ranting, full of hyperbole - is similar to that of a snake oil salesman, or old style preacher. That is an absolute turn off to people who need to here your message. Of course, if you really don't want that message to be heard, but prefer just to whine and moan, then go ahead and continue with your over the top approach. Frankly I think the issue is far to serious for you to be indulging in hysterics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windy Mills
    Why don that Opi feller talk normal, hunh?
    We call it English. You should give it a go sometime.
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  16. #15  
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    Allright I'll try it your way! Last chance though! See the new thread!!

    ps have you watched the movie yet???? If you haven't, is it because my 'over the top style' is MORE IMPPORTANT to you than YOUR DEMOCRACY???!!!

    ps I thought machiavellian was an aftershave!
    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caligirl
    ps have you watched the movie yet???? If you haven't, is it because my 'over the top style' is MORE IMPPORTANT to you than YOUR DEMOCRACY???!!!
    A few points for your consideration:
    1. My own experience both in software development and with corporate America, coupled with observation of the Florida chads left me with minimal confidence in the accuracy of the system - I didn't need to watch the film.
    2. I can look past your 'over the top' style. However, it is not my attention you need to worry about. If you focus on me, then you are simply singing to the choir.
    3. It isn't my democracy. We all know the US has the best government money can buy. :wink:
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    We all know the US has the best government money can buy. :wink:
    Your complacency is phenomenal!
    You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test. -GWBush
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  19. #18  
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    Cali, he's from Scotland. Of course he's a little complacent about what happens to voting in the USA. It isn't his country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Caligirl
    I mean, like I totally knew they had rigged the machines but I never thought they'd admit it!
    The power and importance of your thesis are diminished by your apparent inability to distinguish between incompetence and machiavellian intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Exactly. So it is important that those raising the issue not create a ready opportunity for their message to be ignored because they crossed the line bwetween teaching and preaching.
    Indeed the real mistake is immediately attacking Diebold, and trying to insinuate that they're deliberately rigging their machines. It's not only very unlikely to be provable. It may not even be (exactly) the case, and people will take offense at the idea of accusing an esteemed industrial organization that gives a lot of people jobs just because they value its contribution as an employer.

    Getting people embroiled in that only takes their mind off the real issue: the machines are easy for non-diebold employees to hack.

    All you have to do to come up with a full proof hack is buy a number of the machines and then start trying different kinds of hacks on them until you come up with a perfect virus. Once you've done that, it's a simple matter to introduce the code via (at most) one crooked employee.

    Not a very huge conspiracy.
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  20. #19  
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    The real question is: why don't we have any security measures? Why is the code public knowledge, instead of using a top secret code that's custom made between elections, and then used only once on election day. (Then a new, original code created for the next election)
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Cali, he's from Scotland. Of course he's a little complacent about what happens to voting in the USA. It isn't his country..
    Actually I am far from complacent. I recognise that if the US sneezes Europe catches a cold. I work for an American company. I am in the US a couple of times a year. I lived in the US for two and a half years. I am dfinitley not complacent.

    However, as I pointed out and as I think y7ou agreed, this is too important an issue to throw a fit of emotional outrage. That will only convince those who do not need convincing. A calm, reasoned, non-partisan argument is needed to convert the middle ground. I have little hope that caligirl has any chance of adopting such an approach.
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  22. #21  
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    It's been eight years since Bush stole the election from Gore, and four since the Ohio debacle, during which calm, reasoned, non-partisan argument have been effectively squelched or ignored. Sometimes emotional outrage is the only way to be heard.

    Some of you may have heard there was political convention in Denver last week. Thousands of protesters were expected, and the police were more than ready to deal with outbursts of emotional outrage. Here's one that occurred on the 16th Street Mall. Suffragettes demanding votes for women. Outrageous. Why didn't they just use calm reasoned argument? Perhaps because for decades that got them nowhere.


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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    It's been eight years since Bush stole the election from Gore, and four since the Ohio debacle, during which calm, reasoned, non-partisan argument have been effectively squelched or ignored.
    Good job of presenting a calm, reasoned argument, Bunbury.
    Suffragettes demanding votes for women. Outrageous. Why didn't they just use calm reasoned argument? Perhaps because for decades that got them nowhere.
    Or perhaps because they are just nuts.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    It's been eight years since Bush stole the election from Gore, and four since the Ohio debacle, during which calm, reasoned, non-partisan argument have been effectively squelched or ignored. Sometimes emotional outrage is the only way to be heard.

    Some of you may have heard there was political convention in Denver last week. Thousands of protesters were expected, and the police were more than ready to deal with outbursts of emotional outrage. Here's one that occurred on the 16th Street Mall. Suffragettes demanding votes for women. Outrageous. Why didn't they just use calm reasoned argument? Perhaps because for decades that got them nowhere.

    Calm, reasoned arguments convince people better, if they ever actually hear them, but emotional outbursts are easier to get on the air.

    I think sometimes part of this might be a deliberate selection process. One way you can straw man the opposition at the media level is by only allowing their least logical arguments to be heard, then allowing very calm, reasonable people who agree with you to tear those arguments to pieces.

    That's what I'd do if I were a large corporate conglomerate with holdings that included both media companies and military contractors. Owning both media, and any kind of government contracting has a wonderful synergy effect.
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