"Only an increase in the temperature difference can resume a buildup of more charge carriers on the cold side and thus lead to an increase in the thermoelectric voltage." -Wikipedia

Does this mean that if you connect either end of the TEC to itself and hold the same temperature difference for a period of time, the voltage will disappear? It seems as if the electrons will have fulfilled their need for entropy and will no longer need to send more electrons to the cold side.

"Superconductors have zero thermopower since the charged carriers produce no entropy."

Why do superconductors not adhere to the law of entropy?

"If the scattering is energy dependent, the hot and cold carriers will diffuse at different rates."

What are hot and cold carriers? I was under the impression that a cold carrier in only a depletion zone left by the electron; although if this were so, how could they diffuse at different rates? In fact it would be impossible for a depletion zone to diffuse. Maybe I am misunderstanding it.

2.

3. Why are doped semiconductors necessary? Why do TEC's require both the N and P type?

4. Ok, if no one knows the answers to those questions, at least tell me how to power them. I just bought this: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...OOLER/-/1.html
and have no idea how to make it work. I put a heat sink on either end, and hooked up a 9v battery but nothing happened. I tried everything, but it just would not create a temperature difference.

5. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
Ok, if no one knows the answers to those questions, at least tell me how to power them. I just bought this: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...OOLER/-/1.html
and have no idea how to make it work. I put a heat sink on either end, and hooked up a 9v battery but nothing happened. I tried everything, but it just would not create a temperature difference.

Those look cool. I am glad to see you are finally getting some 1800's technology. Way to go. Takes balls.

I believe that which ever way they make current with heat. You just re-apply a tiny bit higher voltage, and near zero amperage to make it a cold junction.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

6. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
Ok, if no one knows the answers to those questions, at least tell me how to power them. I just bought this: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...OOLER/-/1.html
and have no idea how to make it work. I put a heat sink on either end, and hooked up a 9v battery but nothing happened. I tried everything, but it just would not create a temperature difference.
I took a better look at them. And it looks like they use a lot of amps, up to eight amps. And can go very high in voltage up to 16 volts.

That may be a great improvement over the original ones, if they are very fast acting. I am going to get one and check it out.

From what I read it looks like they can deal with 80 watts. But I am unsure if that is in heating or cooling cycle.

The older ones required almost no voltage or wattage to cool. But these might produce much more cold.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

7. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
Ok, if no one knows the answers to those questions, at least tell me how to power them. I just bought this: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...OOLER/-/1.html
and have no idea how to make it work. I put a heat sink on either end, and hooked up a 9v battery but nothing happened. I tried everything, but it just would not create a temperature difference.

I went back and took a better look. And they appear to take high amperage and high voltage. However I am unsure in what mode they use this power.

The older ones used very little power to cool. But these new ones might cool exponentially faster.

I am going to get one and check it out.

Your nine volt battery is three volts under the specs, and way low in amperage, you are lucky if you have one amp at nine volts, with a slight load.
Under a load like you have, you may only have three volts and one amp. I do not know the design of these specific units, however they might require high amperage.

Does that heat sensor work for heating and cooling? Do you have to set it for heating or cooling. Or is it just a heating overload or high limit?

Sincerely,

William McCormick

8. I ran tests and whether of not the the heat sensor is hot or cold does not matter. It seems to only be a cut off switch if it gets too hot.

I managed to find an old 16 volt AC to DC wall converter. With it I can run at full power...the problem though is that I cannot manage to make it cool the cold side, it only generates exorbitant amounts of heat on the hot side. :x

If you get it, buy the largest heat sink that they have. And even that may not be enough while running at full power. To solve the heat problem I made an air convection wind tunnel with a 12cm computer fan and a few aluminum projects boxes and heat sinks. With it, the TEC never gets hot.

9. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
I ran tests and whether of not the the heat sensor is hot or cold does not matter. It seems to only be a cut off switch if it gets too hot.

I managed to find an old 16 volt AC to DC wall converter. With it I can run at full power...the problem though is that I cannot manage to make it cool the cold side, it only generates exorbitant amounts of heat on the hot side. :x

If you get it, buy the largest heat sink that they have. And even that may not be enough while running at full power. To solve the heat problem I made an air convection wind tunnel with a 12cm computer fan and a few aluminum projects boxes and heat sinks. With it, the TEC never gets hot.
That would be a, high heat, limit switch, technically.

Thanks for the heads up. I was actually going to make one of these. I would much rather buy one though.

I have large blocks of aluminum around for heat sinks.

The older ones that they built with bismuth and antimony, were able to freeze. However they just applied a very slight voltage across the junctions. Just enough to cause it to get cold. It often took a long time though. But very little power.

Let us know how it is coming along.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

10. Well, I guess I broke my AC DC adapter.

It was only rated at 1 amp....apparently I exceeded its limit.

Are there any relatively inexpensive yet reliable 5 amp+ adapters out there?

Since the PSU for my computer is so loud I was considering buying a new one and converting this one to a lab power supply. How easy is this to do? Is it possible to plug a peltier junction into it directly as it is right now inside the computer? It is a 550 Watt module cable Ultra PSU.

11. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
Well, I guess I broke my AC DC adapter.

It was only rated at 1 amp....apparently I exceeded its limit.

Are there any relatively inexpensive yet reliable 5 amp+ adapters out there?

Since the PSU for my computer is so loud I was considering buying a new one and converting this one to a lab power supply. How easy is this to do? Is it possible to plug a peltier junction into it directly as it is right now inside the computer? It is a 550 Watt module cable Ultra PSU.

Most of the power in the computer is 6 volts isn't it?

There are really cheap car battery charges. Or you could get one of those battery boosters very cheap.

Most of these devices handle short circuit well. It happens to them all the time.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

12. I am not sure on the quantity of each, but it should have a 4 volt, 6 volt, and 12 volt line.

13. From Wiki:"black wire is a ground, the orange wire is +3.3 V, the red wire is +5 V, and the yellow wire is +12 V." It looks like each wire can sustain a maximum of 18A, which should be more than enough for your purposes. Your heat pump was used for cooler boxes initially at 12V, but is currently rated at 16.1V and 8.1A maximum (all from the link you provided). The 12V from your PSU should do a good job. The extractor fan setup you described sound like a good idea too. Happy overclocking!

14. Thanks! :-D

If only I hadn't downloaded Vista....on an XP setup my computer with a C2D 2.6Ghz ran at 3.6Ghz, 1.42 volt core; but when I "upgraded" to Vista, I was capped at 3.1 My Crysis FPS and encryption speeds have never been the same!

15. Ah!.......at least I managed a few days ago to bring my 8800GT to 720 core X 2050 memory.

16. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
Thanks! :-D

If only I hadn't downloaded Vista....on an XP setup my computer with a C2D 2.6Ghz ran at 3.6Ghz, 1.42 volt core; but when I "upgraded" to Vista, I was capped at 3.1 My Crysis FPS and encryption speeds have never been the same!

How is Vista?

Sincerely,

William McCormick

17. Its sh*t, do not get it.

To name one of the most annoying aspects of it, it constantly claims that you do not have the "privileges" to do various things, like delete a file of yours. Even when you tell it that you are the admin of the computer, it continues to ask you the same question over and over again. And also, of course, the overclocking sucks...it crashes much quicker than an XP computer would under load.

18. I had to get a new operating system since the XP I was using was the disk form my old computer; this gave me only 30 days to use it until it had to be verified, saying that there is only one computer using it, which of course was not true. So I went for vista, for the DX10, Aero design, and the various supposed security and speed upgrades. Even though it looks much nicer and I can get really nice blur affect in such while gaming, it was not worth it at all.

19. Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
To name one of the most annoying aspects of it, it constantly claims that you do not have the "privileges" to do various things, like delete a file of yours. Even when you tell it that you are the admin of the computer, it continues to ask you the same question over and over again.
Have you turned User Account Control off in the Control Panel? With UAC on, Vista will not run anything as the Administrator unless you specifically tell it to by clicking 'Run As Administrator'. It should be the first thing you turn off once you take your Vista PC out of the box. Personally I haven't had any troubles with Vista, but I still prefer XP's interface and control schema.

20. Originally Posted by Frenchi
Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
To name one of the most annoying aspects of it, it constantly claims that you do not have the "privileges" to do various things, like delete a file of yours. Even when you tell it that you are the admin of the computer, it continues to ask you the same question over and over again.
Have you turned User Account Control off in the Control Panel? With UAC on, Vista will not run anything as the Administrator unless you specifically tell it to by clicking 'Run As Administrator'. It should be the first thing you turn off once you take your Vista PC out of the box. Personally I haven't had any troubles with Vista, but I still prefer XP's interface and control schema.

I was a network supervisor years ago. I used to compute from home in the eighties. My cousin programed a database for chain of retail stores.

Yet all the time I would come across these little technical glitches, games, power schemes, I can't really say which.
But they would get me a bit riled. I would finally come across the answer. And it was so easy, but so un- standard that you could not have just thought of it. There was nothing in the manuals for it that was properly labeled for easy retrieval.
Nothing in the common pool of knowledge about it. Until you needed some advanced feature and had to know. Then it passed around like wild fire.

But the point is that why don't they have a little booklet or help guide, that says to the effect. These are changes from Windows XP to Vista. That you should quickly make so the transfer is seamless. But no. You have to go to a forum, wait till the next day. And then get an answer. About something that should not have been a problem in the first place.

I am still finding stuff out about Windows XP.

When you get software with a new piece of hardware. They often claim that it comes with a complete software product. Later when you need some special feature, you find out that the model of software although "complete" is a different model then the complete software you would purchase at Best Buy, or some other computer re-seller.

The quick way to find out is not to keep searching for the simple topic, not contained in this version. The way to tell is that when the term "adjusting brightness" in a video editing program does not come up in a search. You know your version does not have it and you will need to upgrade.

I did not even have to find it to know that it was not there.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

21. They do have such guides, but they encompass entire books and are written to all different levels of users. With operating systems being what they are nowadays, there are so many changes and so many features designed to accomodate so many levels of user proficiency that it's difficult to stay literate on how to do things without constant research and exposure to it. It's certainly easier to find out whatever you want to know nowadays because of the prolific number of people who use personal computers these days compared to the relatively clandestine group of teachers, thinkers, and businessmen who were the early adopters of systems back when BBS's were all the rage.

I have a motto for fixing computer and network problems at work that goes somthing like "Any problem you're having, somebody else has had before you, so theres definitely an answer for it on Google."

22. Originally Posted by Frenchi
They do have such guides, but they encompass entire books and are written to all different levels of users. With operating systems being what they are nowadays, there are so many changes and so many features designed to accomodate so many levels of user proficiency that it's difficult to stay literate on how to do things without constant research and exposure to it. It's certainly easier to find out whatever you want to know nowadays because of the prolific number of people who use personal computers these days compared to the relatively clandestine group of teachers, thinkers, and businessmen who were the early adopters of systems back when BBS's were all the rage.

I have a motto for fixing computer and network problems at work that goes somthing like "Any problem you're having, somebody else has had before you, so theres definitely an answer for it on Google."

I disagree, I think that things we had already a long time ago, are now neatly packaged. Neatly priced out of range, of the average user. Years ago the same kind of power struggles existed. However we only placed a certain amount of faith in computers and systems.

We used to always have a backup paper redundancy and total system to take over in case of catastrophic crash. We could always just switch to a new system either paper or computer. With ease.

Today large corporations go belly up, trying to change.

Today we claim that with a computer you can do anything. In most cases you will be too blind to do anything after you master a computer. And to poor after paying for the software to do it.

There are exceptions and these exceptions are shunned rather then welcomed. That is how you know the intentions of software companies. They will shun a whole group of users because there is a product that they are not making that performs a task better. So instead of quickly making an interface or exchange system. They shun the minority. As soon as that company is out of business, the similar interface and system is out in another product. Or lost for an entire generation.

It is funny but especially computer people seem to say "yea it is a dog eat dog world out there in computing". Well, I don't think they know what a dog eat dog world is yet. They just talk about it. And act like they are the big hungry dogs. If it ever gets real, you will see these guys could not bite through a wet paper bag.

I am suggesting a human side to computing that will insure the survival of computing.

If there was a decent computer language, and decent instruction manual, you would see what computers can do. Most today get into computers because they hear there is money in it. Not because they love it. A really good programer would tell you the language and operating system is awful.

Compilers are junk.

90 percent worthless security, and ten percent human endeavour.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

23. Originally Posted by William McCormick
I disagree, I think that things we had already a long time ago, are now neatly packaged. Neatly priced out of range, of the average user. Years ago the same kind of power struggles existed. However we only placed a certain amount of faith in computers and systems.
My post didn't have anything to do with that, but I'll roll with it. I disagree with your final point, I think most people get into computers because it's one of the few things they're 'proficient' at, and I'll say that loosely, because I've seen what passes as an IT Professional nowadays. It's unfortunate that so much of my generation was brought up sitting in front of computer monitors and television screens, there is a definite vacuum of real skills being developed among kids. By the time they enter the work force, all they know how to do is work Microsoft Office and set up a Linksys router.

Admittedly, that's a bit generalized and misanthropic, but my point is valid. I don't have access to any studies or figures, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a massive job bloat in IT fields consisting of young college kids sitting in bottom-rung jobs with little room for advancement.

24. Originally Posted by Frenchi
Originally Posted by William McCormick
I disagree, I think that things we had already a long time ago, are now neatly packaged. Neatly priced out of range, of the average user. Years ago the same kind of power struggles existed. However we only placed a certain amount of faith in computers and systems.
My post didn't have anything to do with that, but I'll roll with it. I disagree with your final point, I think most people get into computers because it's one of the few things they're 'proficient' at, and I'll say that loosely, because I've seen what passes as an IT Professional nowadays. It's unfortunate that so much of my generation was brought up sitting in front of computer monitors and television screens, there is a definite vacuum of real skills being developed among kids. By the time they enter the work force, all they know how to do is work Microsoft Office and set up a Linksys router.

Admittedly, that's a bit generalized and misanthropic, but my point is valid. I don't have access to any studies or figures, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a massive job bloat in IT fields consisting of young college kids sitting in bottom-rung jobs with little room for advancement.

I have to agree with what you said about the kids, computers are what they are proficient at. Much more accurate description.

But they like them rather, then what they might love or would love if all fields were open or even existed, in my opinion.

Most will never get to play with hot metal. Or grind away a pound of steel to create an interesting shape.

Never get a chance to use a metal lathe. Or a metal roller, break or shear. Sharpen drill bits and cutters. Make threads in parts. Learn about all the different size and type drill bits. All the different size and type taps and their purposes. Gun taps and blind taps. Pipe taps and dies, verses regular machine threads. No diamond stone dressers.

They will never get to see what the human body is capable of. It is Gods magnificent machine. I have seen the human body absorb outrageous amounts of punishment, energy, electricity, rays. You name it and be ready for action the next day. I think kids should know that they are in an outrageous liquid metal robot, designed by God.

I notice in the computer industry they are always trying to make more work. Rather then streamline computers. If they made computers work at 110 percent. In the long run, it would create more and better job opportunities for all.

But that untrue communistic greed gets in there. And there is no true capitalism anymore. And the industry is turned into a hidden workhouse of true misery.
True capitalization just means that you take something poor or not working, and turn it into something worthwhile. It naturally becomes profitable.

It almost seems like some other country at times.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

25. Originally Posted by William McCormick
I think kids should know that they are in an outrageous liquid metal robot
Hah, I never really thought about it that way. Good point.

Originally Posted by William McCormick
But they like them rather, then what they might love or would love if all fields were open or even existed, in my opinion.
I can attest to that. I've always wanted to try out metalworking and traditional Japanese timber framing, but they never seemed like areas someone could dabble in without years of dedicated apprenticeship. I work at a boat yard where they build sport-fishing yachts, and all of the craftsmen here are very gruff and loath to show me the ropes. And just going out and buying an arc-welder and some steel seems like a pretty good way for a fool to kill himself =)

26. Originally Posted by Frenchi
Originally Posted by William McCormick
I think kids should know that they are in an outrageous liquid metal robot
Hah, I never really thought about it that way. Good point.

Originally Posted by William McCormick
But they like them rather, then what they might love or would love if all fields were open or even existed, in my opinion.
I can attest to that. I've always wanted to try out metalworking and traditional Japanese timber framing, but they never seemed like areas someone could dabble in without years of dedicated apprenticeship. I work at a boat yard where they build sport-fishing yachts, and all of the craftsmen here are very gruff and loath to show me the ropes. And just going out and buying an arc-welder and some steel seems like a pretty good way for a fool to kill himself =)
My pop was a welder at Grumman. He welded so much that he should be toast. But he is in better shape them most his age. He learned welding in the ARMY and then learned high tech welding in Grumman Aero Space.

The thing at Grumman was, they made engineers by actual on the job training. And they paid almost everyone the same wage. Engineer or custodian. Until the government stepped in and forced them to pay college people more. Or face government contract cuts.

It irked old Roy Grumman. He would be out on the floor working like everyone else. Maybe harder. Ha-ha.

Everyone at Grumman in the sixties, new about what everyone else in Grumman knew. That was what was so cool about Grumman Aero Space. I got to hear about every accident with the cause and the fix, growing up from rooms filled with Grumman employees.

There was a guy that got killed by a pencil, sticking it into an electrical junction. And a whole bunch more. It was a really cool place. That was really attacked by government.
Some people still stick pencils into the armature of an electric sander or drill to fix the armature. That is not a good idea. They make a special armature rubber sanding stone. Even that should only be used on dry ground.

Some high Navy officials when they found out that they would not be allowed to buy from Grumman, actually told Roy, give the government buyers a bribe. Because that is what the big guys do. Roy Grumman was like, if someone dies, in that equipment, how do I feel about it, how do I sleep? If it comes out, what do I say to the families of those that got killed?

But I did learn a lot about welding. Rust is not your friend. I have gotten pops right through my boots holding a rusty part for someone. That is high voltage. And since the machine is only putting out about 90 volts max. Something is taking place other then the power supply.

It is ARC which used to be (Anode, Rectified, Cathode). It just meant that the new Anode you see emitting rays, was just the Cathode, before it was Rectified. In most cases by a molten metal surface, similar to the effect of the mercury rectifier.

I started welding when I was nine in the Grumman Aero Space plant. My first weld was an AC weld on aluminum. I believe with Argon and a bit of helium. My skin was sensitive and I could feel the small high frequency spikes needed to sustain an AC arc in noble gas, through the metal welding table, to my bare arms.

I actually like the sensitively, it lets you know often ahead of time if your gloves are getting too wet or if you are standing in water. Or if there is a problem. But after a while you get a little desensitized, to electricity. I have been welding for 37 years now.

I recommend TIG welding. There are some real important does and don'ts but once you get them, it is really all fun. It is the most versatile style of welding. The most expensive initially. However probably cheaper in the long run. You can DC beam weld stainless in a suit and tie.

I do bow rail repairs for a friend that owns a boat yard. Sometimes one of his guys will mangle a rail. And they need it fixed. I just run down with a rather large Miller, and fix it up for him. I can actually put them back and you cannot tell. I file, sand and polish them to mirror finish. It takes about two to three hours usually. I have actually done them while the boats are floating. That is a bit scary.

My friend in the boat yard says, if I fall in throw the torch hard up on land. Ha-ha.

These are weird things I made with TIG. If you are ever interested, in metal work. I can tell you what is commonly accepted today and give you links to great guys, and what used to be accepted years ago, with some links.

If you work in a boat yard, and you use a vibrating sander, on a boat in the water. You can cook yourself and never feel the electric. Because of the vibrating sander. I almost died as a kid sanding a boat for my neighbor. I always tied up the chords because I knew it could happen.
But this one day I just wanted to get a little bit further up the side of the boat. So I untied the extension chord from the piling. And started to sand. I had one hand on the grounded black and decker sander, and the other on a brass bow rail. I started to get irritable and stiff. I was actually angry at the world.

So I stopped sanding. And when I went back and touched the sander and bow rail with the sander off. I felt the power. The chord was in the water, it charged up the propeller, and rudder, and then the bow rails that used to be grounded to the boats ground for lightning.

I had chest pains for a while after that.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

27. Originally Posted by WilliamMcCormick
If you are ever interested, in metal work. I can tell you what is commonly accepted today and give you links to great guys, and what used to be accepted years ago, with some links.
Thanks, that'd be awesome. =)

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