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Thread: combating the effects of G forces in flight?

  1. #1 combating the effects of G forces in flight? 
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    Would it be possible to do this if the pilot was encased in a highly viscous liquid?


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  3. #2  
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    *Shakes head vigorously*

    *Feels brain addle inside skull*

    Yup, but remember the human body itself contains solids, liquids, gases. A squid pilot in water would so own.


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    AH... So not a good idea then?
    Ok, could you use the liquid if you were diving to a great depth?
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    Well that really depends. If the liquid were encased in a completely solid and unbreachable shell then yes because the liquid would experience no change in pressure so neither would the diver. However you might aswell put them in a submarine.
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    The only way you´d combat thoose effect is if that liquid were unable to compress itself, if you know what I mean..

    If you had a liquid with a constant volume/density regardless of outside preasure. But that´s pretty impossible as far as I know?
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    But your insides will still contain compressible fluids that would squash your organs the same as before. If you could somehow be hugely electrostatically charged, maybe with the aid of an intravenous/oral agent, one might be able to suspend the entire body in an electromagnetic field and get it done that way? Then the suspension jelly could be an electron barrier to help you keep your charge? :?
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    Right. The G forces do not only throw you around in the cockpit. The strongest problems are the blood pressure and the momentum introduced to the inner organs. They remain, even if the pilot is nicely embedded into something cozy.
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    You don't want a viscous liquid, you want a liquid that has almost exactly the same density as the human body (water). Ideally you would breath the liquid, so that it filled up the air pockets in your lungs/face. That would indeed allow you to survive much more intense G-forces than an ordinary flight suit. It won't allow you to survive arbitrarily strong G forces, since as others have pointed out eventually you will rip organs loose etc. But you could easily withstand much higher Gs than people currently can. Unfortunately none of the breathable liquids have densities near that of the human body - they are all much too light.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dishmaster
    Right. The G forces do not only throw you around in the cockpit. The strongest problems are the blood pressure and the momentum introduced to the inner organs. They remain, even if the pilot is nicely embedded into something cozy.
    If the viscous forces reduce the net force on the pilot's body, its just as good as less (net) force acting on the body and so, I don't think that there would be any adverse effect such as blood pressure and the momentum introduced to the inner organs.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PritishKamat
    If the viscous forces reduce the net force on the pilot's body, its just as good as less (net) force acting on the body and so, I don't think that there would be any adverse effect such as blood pressure and the momentum introduced to the inner organs.
    You can't solve the inner-organ problem with fluid, but that's more of an issue in things like car crashes or falls from high places where the person is subject to *hundreds* of Gs for a short time. The first problem to appear at high G is blood pooling in places that it isn't supposed to. Eventually this causes the person to pass out. A fluid that was the same density as the pilot's body would counteract that perfectly, because the pressure of the fluid would increase around the body to prevent blood pooling. A person in a fluid could probably safely experience tens of Gs, especailly if they were breathing it.
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  12. #11 Re: combating the effects of G forces in flight? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sciler
    Would it be possible to do this if the pilot was encased in a highly viscous liquid?

    You could do it with high voltage transmissions, approaching the intensity of a bomb. But the human body could be slowed from very high speeds, probably in my opinion the speed of light or beyond, to a dead stop, no pun intended. In a very short distance. Maybe even feet.

    You might note that gravity is effecting your each and every organ. We can recreate gravity with voltage. And stop you evenly. I would not want to test it. But it could be done.

    Ammonia and aromatic hydrocarbon blasts that are often silent, can hurl a man from zero to the speed of bullet. And he is not hurt from the acceleration. But rather the stop.


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    To the speed of a bullet? Really? Did you measure his speed before he hit something?

    Anyway, such acceleration is over a very limited time span. We are talking about months and years here.

    And voltage can cancel gravity?:|
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    To the speed of a bullet? Really? Did you measure his speed before he hit something?

    Anyway, such acceleration is over a very limited time span. We are talking about months and years here.

    And voltage can cancel gravity?:|
    A man blown through a cinder block wall and still alive, is bullet velocity to me.

    It was part of our Hazmat training for cleaning up anhydrous ammonia spills. They were making a video of how to properly clean up a real anhydrous ammonia spill. When they turned on the forklift, that was sitting in the spill, apparently the fumes from the carburetter, had leaked into the room.
    The fellow on the forklift, and the fellow filming were barely effected.

    Yet the other fellow, blew through a cinder block wall, four feet away. His turtle re breather stuck in the wall. And acted like a seat belt and harness.

    When the camera man picked up the camera and paned around the room he saw what happened and stopped filming. But our special top gun Hazmat instructor said that he was outside the wall, alive, badly injured, but basically, all heal able stuff.

    We are a rough breed, we get hit with heavy drums and take falls off tanks, ladders and roofs. We don't complain to much.

    My partner and I were building a house years ago. And it was subzero. His brother was really cold. I was filling a generator with gas. He was complaining that it was cold. He was really just kidding mostly. But it was annoying. And he kept it up. Like I wasn't freezing too. So I poured some gas on him, and lit him up. And in that cold it did not even burn him or his cloths. It actually just warmed him up a bit.

    He asked me to do it again. So poured a lot on him and lit him up. He loved it, he actually felt warm. So he said put a lot on. It was so cold that. It really did not even singe the fibers of his clothes.

    So I do it again. And his brother looks over the roof line, and sees his brother on fire. And runs down a 45 foot roof, and dives off the roof, onto his brother. And extinguishes the fire.

    Well, I am sitting here with tears in my eyes. Just like when it happened. Neither one of us could talk enough to tell him why we were hysterical laughing. And did not care about the fire. He just jumped off the roof on his brother. It was hysterical.



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    William McCormick
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    When the HAZMAT guy came into the room before the video, got to the good part. We were all goofing about the simplicity of an ammonia spill. I knew that ammonia could cause an explosion with aromatic hydrocarbons.

    However I had no idea the small amount of fuel that might do it.

    So we are goofing around making fun of his foot long mustache, and crazy ammonia video that we, the Top New York Hazmat experts, knew everything about. We were just cutting up. We were making fun because they spent fifteen minutes of film, getting into the proper sealing up of a suit.

    He came in and smacked me in my head and said "pay attention you have not seen this". He was right.

    I get it from everyone. From every side. On every front. I am always getting smacked in the head.

    The truth is in New York we see it all. In the middle of the night we would be in a defense plant in a store room of chemicals, with a smoking drum. Of unknown substances. I would go into flammable tankers and remove solidified debris from valve ports. So we had a lot of practice.

    But often in a quieter town or city, they never get to see the insanity. Or do they ever have to suit up. And we had new guys in the room. So I had a double fault. Ha-ha.

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    William McCormick
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  16. #15  
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    Thanks William that story of the cozy fire made my day.




    I've seen this OP question before. It's regarding a space game in which players whiz at sci-fi speeds and when they fight the spaceships bonk around. So some smartass game writers came up with the pilots being suspended in liquid to explain how that don't hurt.

    It would hurt anyway. Concussion - the brain injury - is caused by the brain bouncing inside the skull. So you would get concussion at least. No special fluids can help it. And I think everybody's experienced driving over potholes on a full bladder. It does not take much to jostle the internals.
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  17. #16  
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    G force problems largely arise from the fact not all your organs/tissue have the same density. The denser parts want to settle to the outside of the direction G forces are pushing from, the less dense parts settle to the inside.

    It's not just the amount of force, it's how long you sustain it. A sustained 4 G's of acceleration will detach the retina, permanently blinding a person. But, you could probably survive a lot more than 4 G's for a split second.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    You can't solve the inner-organ problem with fluid, but that's more of an issue in things like car crashes or falls from high places where the person is subject to *hundreds* of Gs for a short time. The first problem to appear at high G is blood pooling in places that it isn't supposed to. Eventually this causes the person to pass out. A fluid that was the same density as the pilot's body would counteract that perfectly, because the pressure of the fluid would increase around the body to prevent blood pooling. A person in a fluid could probably safely experience tens of Gs, especailly if they were breathing it.
    I think you're right, but not so sure.
    Beyond Equations,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Thanks William that story of the cozy fire made my day.




    I've seen this OP question before. It's regarding a space game in which players whiz at sci-fi speeds and when they fight the spaceships bonk around. So some smartass game writers came up with the pilots being suspended in liquid to explain how that don't hurt.

    It would hurt anyway. Concussion - the brain injury - is caused by the brain bouncing inside the skull. So you would get concussion at least. No special fluids can help it. And I think everybody's experienced driving over potholes on a full bladder. It does not take much to jostle the internals.
    Well, there is some truth that liquid can ease that trauma. The reason is that, everything is done with electricity and repulsion. So if you slam a container with liquid or gelatin with you inside of it. Into something. And it stops within a certain time frame. You brain cannot hit anything. And can take the most outrageous amounts of energy.

    If anyone goes to hit you in the face. Just move your face into his fist, with continuing power. In most cases he will sprain his wrist and you will not even get hurt.

    If the theoretical very hard container does not give, the liquid in your body is capable of an amazing one shot absorption.

    That is why a roll of quarters against the head in a pair of panty-hose or sock is so effective. It takes time for the quarters to deliver their individual, velocity to the skull. Over time your brain is slammed into your skull. Yet a brick just bounces off your head.

    The same is true of a leather covered jack. Or a raw hide mallet. These devices are devastating to the human body. I know I have been just tapped by these devices, and left almost immobile. They can kill.

    That is why I do not like all the padding on the new cars.

    Years ago cars had, small radius corners, of very hard metal. To stop you. And it worked. I was in an accident, a very bad one and I walked away, pretty much untouched. I flew right into the metal. And I just stopped when I hit it.

    It has to do with liquid and its ability to utilize the time it takes to compact it, or change its direction.

    It is like doing a belly flop into the water. You get stopped cold. However you do not get trauma. You get an amazing feeling in your skin. Much like an electrical burn.

    If you know the velocity you want to protect someone from. You can create multiple barriers to smash or that will give way, with time between each for your brain to center itself.


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    William McCormick
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  20. #19  
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    For once, I don't think there's anything wrong with your reasoning William. It's true that the right combination of velocity, time, and force will hurt a lot more than other possible combinations that seem to contain the same total energy.

    I'm not sure of everything involved, but I think it has something to do with resonances too. Hitting something at the right velocity can be kind of like hitting it at the right frequency. .... something like that.
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  21. #20  
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    Yeah, I understand that weapons makers tune certain bombs to the chest cavity or cranium.

    Survived any of those personally, William?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Yeah, I understand that weapons makers tune certain bombs to the chest cavity or cranium.

    Survived any of those personally, William?
    Not, some of the very fast, high volume blasts that shatter metal. Nor would I want to. But there is a good volume of material going off. You are talking about many pounds of material.

    I can set up some blasts with less then 100 grams of explosives, that capture ambient radiation and slow it down to lethal speeds. The bomb itself is actually lighter then air. So when I say less then 100 grams I am calculating its atomic weight compared to other substances that are heavier then air. Or else it would have a negative weight.

    There are also magnetic explosives that create a field, and anything in that field is decimated when a small charge goes off. Similar to magneforming. But kind of like magnedeforming.
    I have stood in one of these magnetic fields. It is pretty wild. Thank God, just a small object snapped in it. To let me know what was possible. If there was a short circuit in the equipment, while I was in this field. I would probably be toast, or suffered serious damage.

    This particular field was outrageously tuned to muscles in the body. I think with some work and tuning I could teach tyrants to break dance.

    I should mention that I had about ten miles of very thin magnet winding wire, connected to the broken object.


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  23. #22  
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    from wikipedia

    Liquid immersion provides a way to reduce the physical stress of G forces. Forces applied to fluids are distributed as omnidirectional pressures. Because liquids are (virtually) incompressible, they do not change density under high acceleration such as performed in aerial maneuvers or space travel. A person immersed in liquid of the same density as tissue has acceleration forces distributed around the body, rather than applied at a single point such as a seat or harness straps. This principle is used in a new type of G-suit called the Libelle G-suit, which allows aircraft pilots to remain conscious and functioning at more than 10 G acceleration by surrounding them with water in a rigid suit.
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    Woo.. so there we have it. Good find medlakeguy.

    I guess the final problem's still the one of organs getting displaced. I was thinking gymnasts and figure-skaters must be exceptionally resistant to this kind of injury. Perhaps the coaches have something to share at flight school?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Thanks William that story of the cozy fire made my day.




    I've seen this OP question before. It's regarding a space game in which players whiz at sci-fi speeds and when they fight the spaceships bonk around. So some smartass game writers came up with the pilots being suspended in liquid to explain how that don't hurt.

    It would hurt anyway. Concussion - the brain injury - is caused by the brain bouncing inside the skull. So you would get concussion at least. No special fluids can help it. And I think everybody's experienced driving over potholes on a full bladder. It does not take much to jostle the internals.
    I would take a look at fluids. If the brain does not have time to get to the skull, you will not get a concussion. I have had a brick hit me in the head. And there was no effect.
    I have been hit with a pillow during a pillow fight in a church sleep over. And I got some minor head trauma. Nausea and a severe headache.

    If I had to get hit with a regular hammer which I have been hit in the head with. Or a rawhide mallet, I would take the metal hammer in the blink of an eye. I would bet that one good shot from the metal hammer will not kill you. Yet the raw hide mallet would, no doubt.

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    William McCormick
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  26. #25  
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    Laughing

    out

    loud.



    Dude, you rock. How many lightning strikes can one man take?

    Rhetorical question, but, if you will... by all means...
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  27. #26  
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    I have a great combatant... reflect or divert gravitons around.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  28. #27  
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    I'll pwn your anti-grav army with my clone legions of William McCormicks. :P
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