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Thread: Light and Mass

  1. #1 Light and Mass 
    Forum Masters Degree SuperNatendo's Avatar
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    I'm in sort of a predicament here.

    Does light have mass and take up space? I know my astronomy teacher back in high school said it did. As far as I have been researching though light apparently takes up space but has no mass.

    The explanations for this usually follow along these lines, if light has mass, then by it traveling the speed of light it should have infinite mass.

    Plus, depending on the theory of gravity being used:

    theory A: If light is affected by the gravity of a black hole, and if gravity is the attraction of two objects of mass, then light has mass.

    Theory B: if gravity is simply the effect of mass on space time, the light is still going straight, but space-time is so warped around the black hole that "straight" no longer appears to be straight from an outside observer who is not being affected by the warped space-time.

    I personally think that this proves both that light has no mass and that gravity is not an attraction of mass, but is the effect of mass on the fabric of space-time.


    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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    Light does not have a mass, but it has an impulse. That may sound strange, but on quantum level everything is very strange. The total energy of a moving particle is the sum of the rest energy and the kinetic energy. This can be written relativistically as:



    Here, m_0 is the mass of rest. For a photon, this is zero. H can also be expressed as E. This leads to:

    E = p*c

    Luis de Broglie found that for every particle, its impulse is related to a wavelength:



    If you combine both equations, you get:



    Nice, isn't it? You can also turn this little math around and show in this way that m_0 must be zero.


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    Forum Masters Degree SuperNatendo's Avatar
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    So basically it verifies Einstein's theory that gravity is simply the result of the affect of large bodies of mass on space-time. Otherwise, light would just keep going and not be affected by gravity if gravity was an attraction of mass. Since light has no mass it would not be "attracted" to the black hole.

    As for the math, what does the underscore in m_0 mean? I'm assuming it means base...?
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    As for the math, what does the underscore in m_0 mean? I'm assuming it means base...?
    It's just an index. It only means that it is some kind of zero-order mass. It is often used in Relativity to distinguish it from the total mass of an object.
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    Forum Masters Degree SuperNatendo's Avatar
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    Also, according to my research, you don't need to have mass to bend space-time, high amounts of energy also bend space-time? So basically, it doesn't matter if you have alot of mass or alot of energy or both, just the presence of alot of bosons, energy particles, or pieces of matter bend space-time!

    And if enough light energy exists to bend space time, it would actually cause a "scale" of some sort to be tricked into registering that the light had mass, and this would actually be due to the curvature of space time instead!
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    Also, according to my research, you don't need to have mass to bend space-time, high amounts of energy also bend space-time? So basically, it doesn't matter if you have alot of mass or alot of energy or both, just the presence of alot of bosons, energy particles, or pieces of matter bend space-time!

    And if enough light energy exists to bend space time, it would actually cause a "scale" of some sort to be tricked into registering that the light had mass, and this would actually be due to the curvature of space time instead!
    You cannot change time. Sorry.

    Over time you can create illusions of mass. By velocity transfers that cause reverberation. Or a lack of total exchange of velocity.

    Everything is made of electrons. So if you create a powerful enough magnet, you can bend a room and the furnishings in the room. This experiment is now hidden away, until the next accident. Then they will take out that experiment/accident again. For five minutes and you will not hear about it till the next accident.
    They were trying to bend light. And you cannot bend light. It is going to fast, to be bothered by other electrons. Because light cuts a path in matter. You could bend air, or cause air to move or change density, with magnetics and it would create an effect similar to a mirage in the dessert. Basically heated air distorts and bends light. It refracts it.

    Magnets can do the same thing to air.


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    William McCormick
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    The Philadelphia experiment was a test to make the ship "invisible" to underwater mines. When someone misheard this, you get the myth of the vanishing ship.

    All atoms have electrons, except hydroxyl ions, but bosons and light are not made up of electrons, you have been told this over and over!

    This thread was about light and mass, not time travel! And yes, space and time are interwoven, when you say you will meet someone at the cafe, and you don't tell them when, you aren't really giving them enough information are you? If you tell someone when you will meet them but not where, they don't have enough information. That is but a simple example, but yes, it has been proven that time and space are interwoven and when you bend space, you are also bending time.

    Space-time is one and cannot be separated into separate entities properly.
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    You cannot change time. Sorry.

    Over time you can create illusions of mass. By velocity transfers that cause reverberation. Or a lack of total exchange of velocity.

    Everything is made of electrons. So if you create a powerful enough magnet, you can bend a room and the furnishings in the room. This experiment is now hidden away, until the next accident.
    Look, if you're going to push your own "alternative" theories about physics that's fine, but at least have the honesty to preface your posts with a statement that your ideas are not widely accepted by actual physicists. Most people who come here looking for information are looking for the generally-accepted physical model of the universe that they would learn in university courses. Don't try to present your own pet theories as established when they aren't.

    On a side note, there is a national lab near where I live with a 45 tesla magnet. It weighs 34 tons. When they built it in 1999 it was the most powerful magnet in the world. It consumes 20 megawatts of power when turned on and is cooled by liquid helium. And it doesn't cause any of the effects you describe. Physicists need high magnetic fields for all sorts of experiments, and the more powerful your field is, the better data you can get. The result is that people build the most powerful magnets they are able to – so if what you say is true, everyone would know about it already. It’s absurd to suggest that they built a magnet in the 1950s that was more powerful than the ones we can build today.
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    Thankyou for putting William in his place. Doubtless he will argue back but I think we can all accept now that he is, infact, a renegade monkey that discovered that by pushing buttons on a keyboard he can make things appear on the screen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    You cannot change time. Sorry.

    Over time you can create illusions of mass. By velocity transfers that cause reverberation. Or a lack of total exchange of velocity.

    Everything is made of electrons. So if you create a powerful enough magnet, you can bend a room and the furnishings in the room. This experiment is now hidden away, until the next accident.
    Look, if you're going to push your own "alternative" theories about physics that's fine, but at least have the honesty to preface your posts with a statement that your ideas are not widely accepted by actual physicists. Most people who come here looking for information are looking for the generally-accepted physical model of the universe that they would learn in university courses. Don't try to present your own pet theories as established when they aren't.

    On a side note, there is a national lab near where I live with a 45 tesla magnet. It weighs 34 tons. When they built it in 1999 it was the most powerful magnet in the world. It consumes 20 megawatts of power when turned on and is cooled by liquid helium. And it doesn't cause any of the effects you describe. Physicists need high magnetic fields for all sorts of experiments, and the more powerful your field is, the better data you can get. The result is that people build the most powerful magnets they are able to – so if what you say is true, everyone would know about it already. It’s absurd to suggest that they built a magnet in the 1950s that was more powerful than the ones we can build today.
    I am sure you can use all kinds of things to cool off metal. If shielded by and grounded to the grounded metal shield. It will probably be fine. I use noble gases in similar ways. However if you change up that scenario just a bit, things change a lot.

    They used to use liquid sodium to cool off some reactors. Then water to cool off the sodium. Now I believe you know what might happen if a stress fracture was to form between the water and the sodium.

    I am just saying that these large magnets are nothing more then insane fools wasting life, and hard work, and good individuals real abilities.

    Do the over paid Government funded physicists agree with me heck NO! Whoooa!

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    I am sure you can use all kinds of things to cool off metal. If shielded by and grounded to the grounded metal shield. It will probably be fine. I use noble gases in similar ways. However if you change up that scenario just a bit, things change a lot.

    They used to use liquid sodium to cool off some reactors. Then water to cool off the sodium. Now I believe you know what might happen if a stress fracture was to form between the water and the sodium.

    I am just saying that these large magnets are nothing more then insane fools wasting life, and hard work, and good individuals real abilities.

    Do the over paid Government funded physicists agree with me heck NO! Whoooa!

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. I was refuting your claim that strong magnetic fields cause the effects that you describe. Also, I don't see how any informed person could think that large, powerful magnets are a waste. Many, many interesting and important experiments are performed with them. They have benefited many areas of science, from physics to biology and even pharmacology.
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    Just ignore William it's only a forum he can do no harm.

    A new definition for him would be 'mong'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. I was refuting your claim that strong magnetic fields cause the effects that you describe. Also, I don't see how any informed person could think that large, powerful magnets are a waste. Many, many interesting and important experiments are performed with them. They have benefited many areas of science, from physics to biology and even pharmacology.
    You implied that helium was a safe coolant. Ha-ha. I was stating that I use it as well. But in smaller quantities. And I know how it can become dangerous.

    It is a conductor that once excited will not disintegrate, like nitrogen and oxygen. Helium and Argon persist. If you understand how ambient radiation powers a bomb. You would realize how it can be bad to have things persist.



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    William McCormick
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    How does ambient radiation power a bomb? and don't give a link just explain it.
    ~Edd
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    You implied that helium was a safe coolant. Ha-ha. I was stating that I use it as well. But in smaller quantities. And I know how it can become dangerous.
    It can be dangerous, but accidents that lead to injury are very rare. The main risk is that some small point in the magnet might stop superconducting, which will generate a huge amount of heat and flash-vaporize all the helium. In which case you need to leave the room quickly, or you might asphyxiate. But if you're in a large, well-ventilated room it isn't really a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    You implied that helium was a safe coolant. Ha-ha. I was stating that I use it as well. But in smaller quantities. And I know how it can become dangerous.
    It can be dangerous, but accidents that lead to injury are very rare. The main risk is that some small point in the magnet might stop superconducting, which will generate a huge amount of heat and flash-vaporize all the helium. In which case you need to leave the room quickly, or you might asphyxiate. But if you're in a large, well-ventilated room it isn't really a problem.
    I have been able to breath in helium for a long while with no ill effects, except hyper ventilation. Not asphyxiation.

    I will be honest I do not know what size lines they use of liquid helium, or what the largest sized compartment of liquid helium is. However if you create the right circumstances you can create a very powerful type of emission. From helium.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund
    How does ambient radiation power a bomb? and don't give a link just explain it.
    Ambient radiation is our best friend. It holds basically balls of pure electrons in their spherical shapes. And keeps a real pressure upon them.

    One spherical ball of electrons, is one hydrogen atom. Today called a proton.

    As we create structures of electricity, we also create diodes. Some diodes only function well, when they are in sunlight. Like colors.
    Although you can decipher colors in other ways. To the human being we need light to see the diode effect of colors.

    A color is created by slowing down ambient radiation from a fast moving totally black radiation. To a slower light emitting radiation. Slow down ambient radiation more and you get heat, sound, and then detonation.

    Detonation is caused by creating a diode so good, that if it persisted it would cause the total destruction of the universe. God in his infinite wisdom created the bomb to remove the super diode.

    A bomb is a device that is super abundant with electrons. So abundant that ambient radiation cannot move towards the bomb naturally, because there is just to much repulsion of the incoming electrons by the bomb.

    As the ambient radiation slows, it now adds to the problem, of increasing the amount of free slow moving electrons in the bombs area.
    As a last resort, the last of the high speed ambient radiation, Still flowing undetected through the bomb to maintain it. Finally slows and tears apart the bomb. Spreads it out, and thins out the area of the bomb with massive gravity like energy.
    It can be massive. As great as any power in the universe. Because when you see this energy, there is almost no more energy left, in the ambient radiation.

    And yet Universal Scientists claimed that even when you have seen this, there was still more ambient radiation there. How you would prove how much more is there, I do not know.


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    William McCormick
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    Can we get back to the main argument? William McCormick, you are becoming a troll. There is no reason for any of us to believe most of what you have to say. If you are in fact correct, well then, pat yourself on the back for being smarter than millions of other scientists. As far as we know though, you are not correct. So stop ruining otherwise interesting threads just to test out your own often nonsensical theories.
    Of all the wonders in the universe, none is likely more fascinating and complicated than human nature.

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence"

    -Einstein

    http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund
    How does ambient radiation power a bomb? and don't give a link just explain it.
    Ambient radiation is our best friend. It holds basically balls of pure electrons in their spherical shapes. And keeps a real pressure upon them.

    One spherical ball of electrons, is one hydrogen atom. Today called a proton.

    As we create structures of electricity, we also create diodes. Some diodes only function well, when they are in sunlight. Like colors.
    Although you can decipher colors in other ways. To the human being we need light to see the diode effect of colors.

    A color is created by slowing down ambient radiation from a fast moving totally black radiation. To a slower light emitting radiation. Slow down ambient radiation more and you get heat, sound, and then detonation.

    Detonation is caused by creating a diode so good, that if it persisted it would cause the total destruction of the universe. God in his infinite wisdom created the bomb to remove the super diode.

    A bomb is a device that is super abundant with electrons. So abundant that ambient radiation cannot move towards the bomb naturally, because there is just to much repulsion of the incoming electrons by the bomb.

    As the ambient radiation slows, it now adds to the problem, of increasing the amount of free slow moving electrons in the bombs area.
    As a last resort, the last of the high speed ambient radiation, Still flowing undetected through the bomb to maintain it. Finally slows and tears apart the bomb. Spreads it out, and thins out the area of the bomb with massive gravity like energy.
    It can be massive. As great as any power in the universe. Because when you see this energy, there is almost no more energy left, in the ambient radiation.

    And yet Universal Scientists claimed that even when you have seen this, there was still more ambient radiation there. How you would prove how much more is there, I do not know.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    I see, is there any scientific proof to backup those statements? I tried looking around for things on ambient radiation but i didn't find anything.
    ~Edd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund
    How does ambient radiation power a bomb? and don't give a link just explain it.
    Ambient radiation is our best friend. It holds basically balls of pure electrons in their spherical shapes. And keeps a real pressure upon them.

    One spherical ball of electrons, is one hydrogen atom. Today called a proton.

    As we create structures of electricity, we also create diodes. Some diodes only function well, when they are in sunlight. Like colors.
    Although you can decipher colors in other ways. To the human being we need light to see the diode effect of colors.

    A color is created by slowing down ambient radiation from a fast moving totally black radiation. To a slower light emitting radiation. Slow down ambient radiation more and you get heat, sound, and then detonation.

    Detonation is caused by creating a diode so good, that if it persisted it would cause the total destruction of the universe. God in his infinite wisdom created the bomb to remove the super diode.

    A bomb is a device that is super abundant with electrons. So abundant that ambient radiation cannot move towards the bomb naturally, because there is just to much repulsion of the incoming electrons by the bomb.

    As the ambient radiation slows, it now adds to the problem, of increasing the amount of free slow moving electrons in the bombs area.
    As a last resort, the last of the high speed ambient radiation, Still flowing undetected through the bomb to maintain it. Finally slows and tears apart the bomb. Spreads it out, and thins out the area of the bomb with massive gravity like energy.
    It can be massive. As great as any power in the universe. Because when you see this energy, there is almost no more energy left, in the ambient radiation.

    And yet Universal Scientists claimed that even when you have seen this, there was still more ambient radiation there. How you would prove how much more is there, I do not know.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    I see, is there any scientific proof to backup those statements? I tried looking around for things on ambient radiation but i didn't find anything.
    No I never read a book about ambient radiation the way I was taught ambient radiation. There were no books about it in school to my knowledge.

    However in my World, and in my group it was like sunlight to the average individual. It did not need much explaining.
    However I did live in a different part of the world. We had many things that no longer exist, in the physical sense or the common understanding. Our chemicals were labeled with different symbols, then the rest of the United States.

    We were a different group. That demanded knowledge and quality.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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