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Thread: How can something be bigger on the inside than the outside?

  1. #1 How can something be bigger on the inside than the outside? 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Like the TARDIS, or the unknown future ship on Star Trek: Enterprise, how actually can something be bigger on the inside than out? Surely if you made spacetime shorter inside an object, still that space time would have to connect to the outside spacetime, any ideas on how inside can be larger than the outside?


    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
     

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    Forum Bachelors Degree Shaderwolf's Avatar
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    Step 1, get the thing that you want to be bigger

    step 2, make a universe inside of it.
    http://arstechnica.com/journals/scie...2006/8/18/5027
    step 3, step inside of the universe.
    Now, you have a box/room etc. that can hold a solar system in it!
    usefulness?
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  4. #3 Re: How can something be bigger on the inside than the outsi 
    Moderator Moderator AlexP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Like the TARDIS, or the unknown future ship on Star Trek: Enterprise, how actually can something be bigger on the inside than out? Surely if you made spacetime shorter inside an object, still that space time would have to connect to the outside spacetime, any ideas on how inside can be larger than the outside?
    I just realized early today that I could never watch Star Trek or anything of the sort, I'd be very...very...very critical of it. You can't just "shorten spacetime," I'm sure. I feel that we're quite bound by the configurations of spacetime and we can't really do anything to change them.
    "There is a kind of lazy pleasure in useless and out-of-the-way erudition." -Jorge Luis Borges
     

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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Dimensionally transindental is what they call that property of the TARDIS. I love Star Trek, because I have been watching it since I was a little boy, even though they have technology like "inertial dampers" and such.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Forum Bachelors Degree Shaderwolf's Avatar
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    I hate star trek. I just watched Ocean's thirteen... I didn't like that either (for close to the same reason) You have to get used to there being so much bull in our world. If it wern't for movies like those, there would probably be alot less dumb posts on forums like this.
     

  7. #6  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderwolf
    I hate star trek. I just watched Ocean's thirteen... I didn't like that either (for close to the same reason) You have to get used to there being so much bull in our world. If it wern't for movies like those, there would probably be alot less dumb posts on forums like this.

    If it weren't for star trek you'd have no mobile phone (communicator) or music on computers (the idea for that came from when Data was playing classical music on TNG). Science fiction gives birth to science fact, get with the program loser.

    My comment being 'dumb' or not is irrelevant, thats your opinion, what I wish to discuss is what I want to discuss and you won't stop it no mattter your opinion you are not the ruler of me.

    (You'll have to forgive Willmer here, he sometimes has to be this way to potray his message)
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
     

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    Forum Bachelors Degree Shaderwolf's Avatar
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    Oh no, I wasn't talking about you!
    (I'm being serious)
    I was actually thinking about a post on s different forum.
    (please believe me)
    There was nothing wrong with your post. It was wondering about the future. I hope you didn't take what I said wrong.
    I shouldn't have said anything like that anyway. I was in a bad mood.
    Please take me seriously.
     

  9. #8  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderwolf
    Oh no, I wasn't talking about you!
    (I'm being serious)
    I was actually thinking about a post on s different forum.
    (please believe me)
    There was nothing wrong with your post. It was wondering about the future. I hope you didn't take what I said wrong.
    I shouldn't have said anything like that anyway. I was in a bad mood.
    Please take me seriously.
    Oh sorry! I came across stong too, I've had a similar bad day too, a run in with the police and a trip to the dentist .

    Sorry again
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
     

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    Forum Bachelors Degree Shaderwolf's Avatar
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    no prob. Police and the dentist? Wow man, I'm sorry. You've got me beat by a long shot! Traffic ticket maybe? I got one about a month ago, got pulled over because I'm missing a headlight, and couldn't find my proof of insurance. $410! It's crazy!
    My bad day- I ran out of gasoline (been puting it in a couple of dollars at a time, don't know why.) No biggie though.
     

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    Forum Bachelors Degree Shaderwolf's Avatar
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    Surface area is smaller than volume
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    Like the TARDIS, or the unknown future ship on Star Trek: Enterprise, how actually can something be bigger on the inside than out? Surely if you made spacetime shorter inside an object, still that space time would have to connect to the outside spacetime, any ideas on how inside can be larger than the outside?
    Yes, technically. Think of the TARDIS' Interior Dimensions as a tesseract. That is the basic principle. With that in mind the TARDIS can be bigger on the inside as long as it remains dimensionally stabilized. Look up a video of a Tesseract moving it might be easier seeing it that way. Just think about it for a while...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctor View Post
    Yes, technically. Think of the TARDIS' Interior Dimensions as a tesseract. That is the basic principle. With that in mind the TARDIS can be bigger on the inside as long as it remains dimensionally stabilized. Look up a video of a Tesseract moving it might be easier seeing it that way. Just think about it for a while...
    Er, did you notice that this thread dates back to 2007 ? It is unlikely that the original participants from a six year old thread are still around ( though Quantime, I know, still is ).
     

  14. #13 The reason why the tardis is bigger on the inside. 
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    The reason the tardis is bigger on the inside is that it is a very weird type of spaceship. The tardis police box is actually one end of a very long worm hole. The other end is end at Doctor whos flat in gallifrey (Doctor Whos home planet). There is one episode where this is made clear. I think Doctor who gets lost in the tardis and walks onto a gallifren street. So when the tardis dematerialises and moves through space its actually one end of a worm hole moving through space. The physics for this is actually possible but huge amounts of negative energy are required to keep the worm hole open. I think the timelords worked out how to harness the energy of a black hole and so this all seems to be legit.
     

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    Universalis Infinitis Devon Keogh's Avatar
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    You could fold the universe using an infinitely long pole spinning at the speed of light, which would using its energy, pull all three dimensions into a tight cord which would be experienced by a human as normal space.

    But where do you get the infinitely sized pole?

    "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
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    In my own opinion there is no greater mathematical Principle than that which is x - x = 0. This shows that matter can be created from nothing as long as the total product of the matter's mass & energy equal exactly zero.
    The only question is, "Where did all that antimatter go?"

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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    while we are on the subject: Traversable Achronal Retrograde Domains In Spacetime
    [1310.7985] Traversable Achronal Retrograde Domains In Spacetime
    and a slightly less technical version: [1310.7983] The Blue Box White Paper
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    If it weren't for star trek you'd have no mobile phone (communicator) or music on computers (the idea for that came from when Data was playing classical music on TNG). Science fiction gives birth to science fact, get with the program loser.
    Nice try...lol.
    Far more likely Star trek borrowed the ideas from current engineering--there were folks working out the technologies for mobile phones, and digital algorithms for music by the late 1950s--star trek just pushed in the direction designers were already envisioning. (and I still don't carry a cell-I don't want to be that damn connected...I do listen to a lot of music though).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    If it weren't for star trek you'd have no mobile phone (communicator)
    Unlikely.
    Phones would have become smaller and portable without Star trek. They're essentially an offshoot of car phones.
    (Plus, of course, the ST communicator was person to ship - or vice versa - ONLY).

    or music on computers (the idea for that came from when Data was playing classical music on TNG).
    Right.
    Because, apart from anything else 1, music programmes were available on micro computers in the early 80s - well before ST:NG.

    Science fiction gives birth to science fact, get with the program loser.
    SF may inspire science fact - probably because SF readers become the geeks of industry - it doesn't necessarily become science fact.

    1 The oldest known recordings of computer generated music were played by the Ferranti Mark 1 computer ... in the autumn of 1951.
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    Ascended likes this.
     

  20. #19  
    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    Like the TARDIS, or the unknown future ship on Star Trek: Enterprise, how actually can something be bigger on the inside than out? Surely if you made spacetime shorter inside an object, still that space time would have to connect to the outside spacetime, any ideas on how inside can be larger than the outside?
    Well surface area can certainly be bigger on the inside of an object, by having folds, but that's 2 dimensional, as to whether it would actually be possible in have something larger on the inside of all 3 spatial dimensions I guess will depend on whether we discover how to actually fold space, if it is some how possible and thusly discovered in the future then yes, certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility, even though we can't do it at the moment.
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    Surely if you made spacetime shorter inside an object
    I would imagine "squeezing" space in the inside.
    Or, imagine a plane. Draw a circle on the plane. Then, place a dome inside the circle (completely inside). There you go, there's more space inside than outside.
    At least, I think...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    while we are on the subject: Traversable Achronal Retrograde Domains In Spacetime
    [1310.7985] Traversable Achronal Retrograde Domains In Spacetime
    and a slightly less technical version: [1310.7983] The Blue Box White Paper
    Interesting...I had a quick look through this, but I must say even without doing any maths I am almost sure that such a bubble would not be topologically stable. This is technically just a variant of the Alcubierre metric, which is know to have a number of issues. But interesting nonetheless.
     

  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well surface area can certainly be bigger on the inside of an object, by having folds, but that's 2 dimensional, as to whether it would actually be possible in have something larger on the inside of all 3 spatial dimensions I guess will depend on whether we discover how to actually fold space, if it is some how possible and thusly discovered in the future then yes, certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility, even though we can't do it at the moment.
    You don't need to fold space - have a look at my avatar. It is called a Menger Sponge, and it has zero volume enclosed by an infinite surface, while the outer edges are finite and well defined. It's simple geometry.
     

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    What about Black Holes? I'm sure everyone here has heard of the puzzle game Portal. The way the portals themselves are made (as far as I know) are miniature black holes. This allows instant travel from one area to another. So, if you do create a universe in a smalled object (such as the T.A.R.D.I.S.) and hide a room somewhere in that big area, create some sort of portal or teleportation to it, wouldn't that be possible? I know it's not possible for any human being at ALL to create such a thing, but this is just a theory. What are your thoughts?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    If it weren't for star trek you'd have no mobile phone (communicator) or music on computers (the idea for that came from when Data was playing classical music on TNG).
    Gotta call BS on those. I built a music player in 1984 for a college course. It could only hold one song on a PWB 4" x 4", and it had to be a short song (Souvenir, Billy Joel, just under 2 minutes.) It was constructed entirely of UV-erasable EEPROM. The music was sampled at 8KHz at 8 bit resolution, single channel (roughly 10x worse than modern digital audio.)

    I walked around showing it off, telling people "some day we'll be able to fit an entire album on something this small!"

    Going back even further, we had walkie-talkies long before the original Star Trek.
     

  27. #26  
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    The effect of the TARDIS can be achieved by creating a quassi-dimensional continuum within the objects interior (like an alternate dimension or universe).....so the exterior would act as a border and doorway between two dimensions/space-times.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ski View Post
    The effect of the TARDIS can be achieved by creating a quassi-dimensional continuum within the objects interior (like an alternate dimension or universe).....so the exterior would act as a border and doorway between two dimensions/space-times.
    So what you're basically saying is, make a gateway between space/time and other dimensions, and just disguise it?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Who? View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ski View Post
    The effect of the TARDIS can be achieved by creating a quassi-dimensional continuum within the objects interior (like an alternate dimension or universe).....so the exterior would act as a border and doorway between two dimensions/space-times.
    So what you're basically saying is, make a gateway between space/time and other dimensions, and just disguise it?
    Fundamentally, yes. However, my knowledge on this is elementary; therefore, take it with a grain of salt :-) .
     

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    Knowledge is infinite, just don't compare your knowledge of chapter 1 to someone else's chapter 20. Dimensions and traveling between them is extremelly confusing, and we might not figure it out until we discover Time Travel. My only question is: if Time Travel is possible, why have we not seen sudden changes, people from the future, etc.? Or has it already been changed? Those are the real questions.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Who r u?
    I'm The Doctor.
     

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    Anyways, if anyone has any other theory of any type for this post, message me. I'm studying it for quite a while.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Who? View Post
    Knowledge is infinite, just don't compare your knowledge of chapter 1 to someone else's chapter 20. Dimensions and traveling between them is extremelly confusing, and we might not figure it out until we discover Time Travel. My only question is: if Time Travel is possible, why have we not seen sudden changes, people from the future, etc.? Or has it already been changed? Those are the real questions.
    Perhaps time travel (from the future to the past) can only be done in an alternate dimension that does not interlope with the present/past (think of the movie The Scrooge). That's one possibility of why we have not encountered a person from the future.
     

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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    WTF?
    This isn't physics, it's wild speculation.
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  37. #36  
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    MODERATOR NOTE : This thread has seen no activity for almost a year, and I certainly won't see it turned into a platform for pseudoscience. Locked.
     

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