Thread: the purpose of physics is to predict the future

well, think about it.
what is physical mathematics for? to predict how something behaves once its constructed.
the more accurate our formulas and inputs becomes, the more predictable reality becomes.

we know how a bridge will behave long before its constructed. the more advanced technology becomes, the more accurate we can predict its behaviour.
by input of how something has moved in the past, we can make assumption of how it will move in the future.

In time you will learn about chaos and it's unpredictability.

You see, when one knows all the laws of physics, as I do, you begin to respect why it is not possible to predict the future, but to only understand how the laws of physics exist for a type of constancy of space-time performance, for space-time not contradicting itself, for space-time actually ACHIEVING something.

Enter chaos.

Chaos is word used to describe that which lacks ORDER.

An ORDER is a LAW, a fundamental way space-time is knitted together.

With the right mathematics, that stitching can be VISUALISED, provided you use that mathematics with a theory of human perception.

The BEST that stitching can represent to our imagination is a simple portrayal of how all the basic qualities of the atom interact with one another, as the forces of space-time.

Everything else is chaos, that which we can't understand, independent atomic systems vying for control over other independent atomic systems, exerting their reference of self-importantce over one another, like posters in this forum who have no damn idea about the forces of space-time, only complicated mathematics that has lost the plot.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

well, think about it.

I've thought about it and you are wrong. If I run with your theme then I would say the purpose of physics is to understand why things behaved they did in the past, to understand why they are behaving as they are in the present, and to understand how they will behave in the future. Since this involves past, present and future, introducing time into the definition of purpose is superfluous.

From a book available at the www feature below:

People sometimes ask, “what is space-time”: “space-time is too difficult to understand, it would take too long to research and understand, it is way too difficult for me”.

I agree. Space-time IS too difficult for anyone to understand through experiment. We make a great effort though, but never do we accept space-time can be predicted, because it is not possible to know the future. If you really want to think about it, the implications of knowing a theory of space-time that DESCRIBES reality, technically, ULTIMATELY, one would be able to EXPLAIN EVERYTHING, one would be able to PREDICT reality, and even then one would achieve that after developing the right tools of mathematics to the right levers of space and time, mass, and energy, force and motion, from large to small objects, combining EUCLID with NEWTON with a theory that accommodates for EINSTEIN.

Here’s the problem: the step Einstein had tried to make was defining the reference of an observer, and if the observer is everywhere, as his theory ideally implies, what is the fundamental law at play.

Einstein reached the wall of theory, of the OBSERVOR EVERYWHERE AT ONCE. Imagine it: it would be IMPOSSIBLE for one person to come up with a “theory of everything” as the OBSERVOR who is everywhere in time and space as a “research-experiment”. Einstein sought that universal reference of the observer but failed to realize the PARADOX of a theory that would be able to explain all space and time, the “implications” of that theory, the main one being “how is it possible to predict space-time in using a theory that EXPLAINS space-time if it is not possible to MAKE the future happen by just theorizing it in presumably being everywhere at once”.

It is with this key insight that I do not believe a theory of all things of space-time is possible via research, via the research pathway. I think it is IMPOSSIBLE, namely to have a theory of space-time that predicts atomic phenomena, via research-experiment. I think it is humanly impossible. I think it is humanly impossible to explain a reality that has not happened yet as a research-experiment, to explain that reality in using a theory that would represent proof that such a reality HAS TO BE POSSIBLE by theorizing it, if of course a theory of everything is used as the standard of how space-time behaves. Think about it.

What then can be accepted that is POSSIBLE, in accepting what is impossible and not pursuing that, in accepting the universal observer and the associated theory of predicting atomic phenomena is not possible? Surely then, and this is my claim, the possibility exists of explaining that which exists OUTSIDE space-time, OUTSIDE an impossible “theory of all things”, or more perfectly, “outside that impossible theory”, and that which CAN be explained would represent the HOW and WHY reality doesn’t turn to ash in an instant or some other thing, because it is CAGED by that which contains it, so to speak.

BY DEFUALT therefore, what can be described of space-time that is understandable, by default, would represent the absolute LIMITS of space-time, the zero and the infinity of space-time, that which represents the border, the boundary, of space-time, and not all that exists within that boundary. Basically, my claim is that the boundary, I would gather, represents the LIMITS, the ZERO and the INFINITY, of space and time.
In following that logic, it would be true to suggest that if it is impossible to predict atomic phenomena using standard mathematics and physics, the real, in attempting to explain even gross phenomena to perfection, then a theory OUTSIDE the normal confines of space-time would represent the predictable, so much so it would represent a repeating sequence of the limits, the LAWS, of space-time, the framework, the LAWS, that holds the general shape of space-time as it is. The following diagram I hope explains the situation I am presenting:........

That's from a book, www feature below, free book download (p13-14).

The thing is, there are more pages in that book obviously relevant to this subject.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by dejawolf

well, think about it.

I've thought about it and you are wrong. If I run with your theme then I would say the purpose of physics is to understand why things behaved they did in the past, to understand why they are behaving as they are in the present, and to understand how they will behave in the future. Since this involves past, present and future, introducing time into the definition of purpose is superfluous.

i never mentioned the word "time" once. so i believe i never introduced time, you did.
i'm not talking about predicting the whole future or crystal ball gazing, although i guess it came off that way.
what i say is:
"knowing what will happend" = "short-term prediction of the future"
we're certainly capable of predicting certain instances of future, once we set our heads to it.
thats what the global warming scandal is about. its a short-term look at the past, and prediction of the future. while we have long-term statistics that say earth has behaved like this in the past, and it may do so in the future.then theres volcanoes that have annual eruptions.
we're currently capable of giving pretty accurate estimates of the geological
future of the earth.
we know, based on recent discoveries of past eruptions of the volcano vesuvio, that it might have an eruption within the next 50 or so years.
we also have excellent short-term capability of predicting the future,
by simple cause and effect.
every step we take in life, is a short-term prediction of the future.
planning, is basically where you spend a long time predicting a small instance of the future.
i guess, basically i tell you something you already knew, but from a different angle, an overview.
i think its important to get an overview of what we already know,
so that we can predict the future.

how accurate do you predict our future predictions to be?

Originally Posted by dejawolf

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by dejawolf

well, think about it.

I've thought about it and you are wrong. If I run with your theme then I would say the purpose of physics is to understand why things behaved they did in the past, to understand why they are behaving as they are in the present, and to understand how they will behave in the future. Since this involves past, present and future, introducing time into the definition of purpose is superfluous.

i never mentioned the word "time" once. so i believe i never introduced time, you did.

Your entire thesis is contingent upon time. You place much emphasis on the predicitive character of physics - that inherently relates to future events. You mention the past. You mention the future. Your post is redolent with time and the effects of time. The absence of the word itself is irrelevant.

You say "I think its important to get an overview of what we already know, so that we can predict the future."
I say physics is not only about predicting the future, but understanding the past and the present. Your view of physics is too limiting.

'Purpose' ?

Science is methodology for obtaining knowledge. Any 'purpose' of that knowledge is another issue apart from science.

I say physics is not only about predicting the future, but understanding the past and the present. Your view of physics is too limiting.

my view of physics include looking at the past for predicting the future,
if it is to have any purpose,
and if it is not used to predict the future,
its merely "for the hell of it"
life is about survival, and to survive, we need to see to the future first and foremost, and the only purpose of looking at the past, is to predict the future.
of course, one could assign "finding our origins" a purposeful pursuit,
but in my humblest of opinions, its mostly just for the hell of it.
unless it causes sleepless nights not knowing where we all came from, which could be detrimental to your health, which ultimately would result in a shortening of your lifespan.
cause and effect.
oh and present is such a tiny slice of reality, as to merely mattering at all.

Originally Posted by Jellyologist

'Purpose' ?

Science is methodology for obtaining knowledge. Any 'purpose' of that knowledge is another issue apart from science.

thats simply another way of saying "the purpose of science is to obtain knowledge".
it can also be said like this
"you use science to get knowledge"
and "science is a way to get knowledge"
and maybe even "science is how you find knowledge"

we can argue over the semantics here if you'd like.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

I say physics is not only about predicting the future, but understanding the past and the present. Your view of physics is too limiting.

my view of physics include looking at the past for predicting the future,
if it is to have any purpose,
and if it is not used to predict the future,
its merely "for the hell of it"
life is about survival, and to survive, we need to see to the future first and foremost, and the only purpose of looking at the past, is to predict the future.
of course, one could assign "finding our origins" a purposeful pursuit,
but in my humblest of opinions, its mostly just for the hell of it.
unless it causes sleepless nights not knowing where we all came from, which could be detrimental to your health, which ultimately would result in a shortening of your lifespan.
cause and effect.
oh and present is such a tiny slice of reality, as to merely mattering at all.

Your view of the purpose of physics is just that...'your' view. Certainly little to do with physics as a science. Science is not focused on your life or survival but knowldege. It's irrelevent how useful YOU find it or what what YOU consider useful applied science and technology.

ok, then, what is the purpose of knowledge?

zun tzu: "know your enemy, and you will be victorious in every battle."

"knowledge is power"

tell me what we're supposed to do with all the knowledge we attain from physics?

survival? better survival? save lives? improve ours, and others way of living?
as i see it, its inevitable that our planet is going to try and kill is, or some space rock is going to hit us.
we've used physics and science to predict those things,
and to counteract these things we plan, (or predict...)
how to counter this threat.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

ok, then, what is the purpose of knowledge?

zun tzu: "know your enemy, and you will be victorious in every battle."

"knowledge is power"

tell me what we're supposed to do with all the knowledge we attain from physics?

survival? better survival? save lives? improve ours, and others way of living?
as i see it, its inevitable that our planet is going to try and kill is, or some space rock is going to hit us.
we've used physics and science to predict those things,
and to counteract these things we plan, (or predict...)
how to counter this threat.

Science disciplines including physics are also not about quotes from zun tsu or others...

but sun tzu rocks! theres so much truth in what he says.
sun tzu's art of war is gospel in the armed forces of today,
because it still holds so much truth.
theres even been some book adaptions to business, based on sun tzu's writings.

and you didn't answer my questions,
what is the purpose of knowledge?
what are we supposed to do with all the knowledge we attain from physics?

Well know it for starters. Its like climbing mountains, we climb mountains simply because they are there to climb.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

well, think about it.
what is physical mathematics for? to predict how something behaves once its constructed.
the more accurate our formulas and inputs becomes, the more predictable reality becomes.

we know how a bridge will behave long before its constructed. the more advanced technology becomes, the more accurate we can predict its behaviour.
by input of how something has moved in the past, we can make assumption of how it will move in the future.

And in the absence of mathematics, there is no understanding of the future?

Tell that to a supermodel.

Why do people always look for a purpose in everything??
What is the meaning of life? Why the hell do socks come out of the washer ALWAYS as singles, no pairs? Is there a god? Why the hell is there nothing good on TV whenever there's a rainy Sunday afternoon? Is the universe flat and inifinite or not?

Originally Posted by river_rat

Well know it for starters. Its like climbing mountains, we climb mountains simply because they are there to climb.

Cudos for river_rat, that's what really distinguishes "intellegent" beeings from dumb animals and I tell you what: that's what it comes down to, I like knowing things just to know and this really gives me satisfaction.

Oh, and BTW: we will never be able to know the future of the universe. Curse you, Heisenberg!!

Originally Posted by Twaaannnggg

Oh, and BTW: we will never be able to know the future of the universe. Curse you, Heisenberg!!

Are you certain about that, or are you just saying it on principle?

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Are you certain about that, or are you just saying it on principle?

Well that idea about calculating the very future of the universe goes waaaayyyy back to the french philosophers, IIRC it was Pascal that first announced that li'l tidbit. But Planck was not born at this time let alone Heisenberg. And if I apply the uncertainty principle
of quantum physics then it is impossible to tell the future of the universe in it's entirety. Especially bad as those uncertainty propagates and the prediction get's worse and worse for longer periods of time.

And it's also pretty stylish to curse HEISENBEEEEEERGGGGGG!!!!!

we do have a purpose in life.
that purpose is to breed, so that future generations can breed so that future generations can breed, ad infinitum.
that is our ONLY purpose.
thats why we have dicks and vaginas.

and i still did not get my 2 fucking questions answered.
that there is no purpose to knowledge in the scenario above, is pure
bullshit.
in the context above, what is the purpose of knowledge?

We are curious like apes and want our curiosity satisfied. With knowledge comes technology, money, comfort, lazyness. And I guess, in a circular way, knowledge is some people's purpose in life and knowledge's purpose is to give some people purpose in life.

Are those the answers you were looking for? Anyway, thats how I see it.

yes, thats one good answer.
so next question, why are we curious?

It might be an evolutionary trait that comes with intellegence. It has enabled us to be creative in finding food. If we were not curious, we would never have discovered that using tools make things easier ( start of 2001: a space odyssey)

is it then correct for me to conclude that the pursuit of knowledge is a survival trait as well, based on that curiosity is a survival trait that inspires the pursuit of knowledge?
after all, more knowledge adapts us better to our surroundings.

I'd be inclined to agree. The thing is, one could make an argument for ALL our attributes having some evolutionary foundation. Since we are but a product of evolution, it naturally follows.

Originally Posted by dejawolf

is it then correct for me to conclude that the pursuit of knowledge is a survival trait as well, based on that curiosity is a survival trait that inspires the pursuit of knowledge?
after all, more knowledge adapts us better to our surroundings.

Yup, I'll third that. See who's better suited for life: the nosy guy with central heating, AC and refirdgeration or that lazy dumb shit who's O.K. with sitting in his flea-infested cave picking his nose and have a nice campfire going??