# Thread: Why you think that the atom is neutral?

1. Get one bigger and one smaller rubber ball. Think like the bigger is proton and smaller electron. But both of them have same amount of coulombs electric force (like it is in real). Attach on the rubber balls few needles (on the left, right, top, and down). Now move the smaller ball around the bigger. You will see that 2 or 3 of the sides of the smaller ball will not have any contact with the bigger ball. The needles are representing the electric force, do it mean that the atom in general is positive?

2.

3. An atom is neutral because the charges in it cancel each other out. An atom usually has an equal number of protons (positive charge) and electrons (negative charge), and both particles have charges that are equal. They cancel each other out.

In cases where there are extra electrons, or where there are less electrons than protons, these are called ions which can have a positive or a negative charge. When you are rubbing a balloon or some other material together, you are knocking electrons off, thereby giving it a positive charge.

4. Originally Posted by Corona
An atom is neutral because the charges in it cancel each other out. An atom usually has an equal number of protons (positive charge) and electrons (negative charge), and both particles have charges that are equal. They cancel each other out.

In cases where there are extra electrons, or where there are less electrons than protons, these are called ions which can have a positive or a negative charge. When you are rubbing a balloon or some other material together, you are knocking electrons off, thereby giving it a positive charge.
I know that. The electrical forces are canceling but think about the experiment. You'll realize that the electric forces are not canceling completely.

5. Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Corona
An atom is neutral because the charges in it cancel each other out. An atom usually has an equal number of protons (positive charge) and electrons (negative charge), and both particles have charges that are equal. They cancel each other out.

In cases where there are extra electrons, or where there are less electrons than protons, these are called ions which can have a positive or a negative charge. When you are rubbing a balloon or some other material together, you are knocking electrons off, thereby giving it a positive charge.
I know that. The electrical forces are canceling but think about the experiment. You'll realize that the electric forces are not canceling completely.
If none of the atoms are ionized, as Corona explained, there will be no forces to interact. The experiment shows nothing of value, sorry. Neutral atoms are just that - neutral. They produce no electrical effects.

6. the atom is fairly neutral from from a somewhat greater distance, as would your pair of balls from say two meters.
Also at lover distances quantum physics plays a major role so your experiment based (more or less) on Newtonian physics) is not very valid.
In short distances atoms do interact, but the interaction is not something based on Newtonian physics.

7. Look at this picture.

I want to tell you that the electric field is all over the electron or proton. But the electron when it moves it does not move from all sides, around the proton.

8. Originally Posted by scientist91
Look at this picture.

I want to tell you that the electric field is all over the electron or proton. But the electron when it moves it does not move from all sides, around the proton.
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.

9. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Look at this picture.

I want to tell you that the electric field is all over the electron or proton. But the electron when it moves it does not move from all sides, around the proton.
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.

10. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.
I think the correct term is probability cloud, but of course you knew that, just clarifying :-D . They are in probability clouds at specific energy levels. In a hydrogen atom, for example, the electron is at the lowest energy level, correct me if I'm wrong but I think its called 1s level, and the "orbit" at that level is very small. But of course electrons and protons have an equal but opposite charge so they cancel each other out anyway, regardless of its position.

The only way it can have a charge, scientist91, is if it is ionized, which I said before.

11. Originally Posted by Corona
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.
I think the correct term is probability cloud, but of course you knew that, just clarifying :-D . They are in probability clouds at specific energy levels. In a hydrogen atom, for example, the electron is at the lowest energy level, correct me if I'm wrong but I think its called 1s level, and the "orbit" at that level is very small. But of course electrons and protons have an equal but opposite charge so they cancel each other out anyway, regardless of its position.
Yep, I did but I didn't want to confuse him with the word 'probability' - not sure how he might have taken that. :wink:

And the lowest level is simply called the "base level." (Just a little additional clarification, it's not really all that important.)

12. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by Corona
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.
I think the correct term is probability cloud, but of course you knew that, just clarifying :-D . They are in probability clouds at specific energy levels. In a hydrogen atom, for example, the electron is at the lowest energy level, correct me if I'm wrong but I think its called 1s level, and the "orbit" at that level is very small. But of course electrons and protons have an equal but opposite charge so they cancel each other out anyway, regardless of its position.
Yep, I did but I didn't want to confuse him with the word 'probability' - not sure how he might have taken that. :wink:

And the lowest level is simply called the "base level." (Just a little additional clarification, it's not really all that important.)
Look at this picture. This I am talking about.

13. Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by Corona
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.
I think the correct term is probability cloud, but of course you knew that, just clarifying :-D . They are in probability clouds at specific energy levels. In a hydrogen atom, for example, the electron is at the lowest energy level, correct me if I'm wrong but I think its called 1s level, and the "orbit" at that level is very small. But of course electrons and protons have an equal but opposite charge so they cancel each other out anyway, regardless of its position.
Yep, I did but I didn't want to confuse him with the word 'probability' - not sure how he might have taken that. :wink:

And the lowest level is simply called the "base level." (Just a little additional clarification, it's not really all that important.)
Look at this picture. This I am talking about.
If you are trying to depict the motion of an electron moving around the nucleus, what you fail to understand is the IMMENSE speed with which it does so! Is is SO fast that the net effect is that of a completely neutrally-charged atom. At any given milli-milli-microsecond the electron can be considered to be all around the atom. It's the speed at which it travels that you seem to be missing.

14. Originally Posted by scientist91
Look at this picture. This I am talking about.
You have your whole concept wrong. This is how opposite charges actually interact:

You will see that the charges cancel each other out, no matter the position or its speed. They cancel each other out due to their attraction.

15. And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?

16. scientist91, your model was actually one of the dilemmas before introduction of quantum physics. In classical physics, if one charge moves around another, it causes a changing electric field, which induces a magnetic field and so on, resulting in electromagnetic radiation. This would cause the electron to eventually stop spinning and if possible drop into the nucleus.
However you don't see constant radiation of this sort from all the matter around you, and electrons don't collide with nuclei (usually) which alone indicates that your model is not valid.

17. Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?

18. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?
Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralize?

19. Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?
Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralize?
Please answer my question before we continue. Which is it? Not understanding or not believing?

20. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?
Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralize?
Please answer my question before we continue. Which is it? Not understanding or not believing?
Not understanding. Please answer me: Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralized?

21. Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?
Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralize?
Please answer my question before we continue. Which is it? Not understanding or not believing?
Not understanding. Please answer me: Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralized?
Because it is only neutralized as far as the overall charge of the ATOM is concerned. Both the proton(s) and electron(s) still exist and have their respective charges. But that does not change the fact that when viewing the atom as a WHOLE it had a neutral charge.

22. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?
Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralize?
Please answer my question before we continue. Which is it? Not understanding or not believing?
Not understanding. Please answer me: Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralized?
Because it is only neutralized as far as the overall charge of the ATOM is concerned. Both the proton(s) and electron(s) still exist and have their respective charges. But that does not change the fact that when viewing the atom as a WHOLE it had a neutral charge.
And is there any electric filed?

23. Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Look at this picture.

I want to tell you that the electric field is all over the electron or proton. But the electron when it moves it does not move from all sides, around the proton.
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.

In the presence of a dipole (here electron and proton whose charges are equal in magnitude but opposite in sign) all the field lines from the positive part will end at the negative part.

24. Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
And what will happen if I put alternative electron close to atom's electron? Both of them will repel themselfs or what?
Your 'alternative' electron would be repelled by the electrostatic force, just as I have said many times already. And that has nothing at all to do with the fact that the atom is still neutrally charged.

You are asking the same question over and over. Either you are unable to understand what we are saying or you don't believe us. Please tell us - which it is?
Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralize?
Please answer my question before we continue. Which is it? Not understanding or not believing?
Not understanding. Please answer me: Why you think that the alternative electron will be repelled when the electric force of the atom's electron is neutralized?
Because it is only neutralized as far as the overall charge of the ATOM is concerned. Both the proton(s) and electron(s) still exist and have their respective charges. But that does not change the fact that when viewing the atom as a WHOLE it had a neutral charge.
And is there any electric filed?
Certainly. The electron hasn't been destroyed. BUT that field does not extend beyond the boundaries of the atom. Thus, the whole atom has a neutral charge.

25. So my chair have electric field?

26. Originally Posted by anandsatya
Originally Posted by Old Geezer
Originally Posted by scientist91
Look at this picture.

I want to tell you that the electric field is all over the electron or proton. But the electron when it moves it does not move from all sides, around the proton.
Yes, it does. The electrons exist in a 'cloud' all around the entire atom.

Even if you wish to consider the smallest atom, hydrogen, which has only a single electron, it's movement is SO rapid that the entire atom is still neturally charged. There's no 'effect' generated on one side as you are trying to depict.

In the presence of a dipole (here electron and proton whose charges are equal in magnitude but opposite in sign) all the field lines from the positive part will end at the negative part.
And why the lines are going from + to - and not from - to +?

27. Old Geezer look at my 2 last posts on this topic, please. Thank you.

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