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  1. #1 are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the... 
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    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?


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  3. #2 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    No, the fields are stationary around the conductor.


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  4. #3 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    No, the fields are stationary around the conductor.
    I am talking about the fields of the electrons, are they moving within wire with current?
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  5. #4 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    No, the fields are stationary around the conductor.
    I am talking about the fields of the electrons, are they moving within wire with current?
    That's the ONLY field present - and the answer is still no.
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    So the magnetic and the electric fields of the electrons are static? And how do the magnetic field is created?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So the magnetic and the electric fields of the electrons are static? And how do the magnetic field is created?
    Yes, they are static - unless the current changes in intensity or direction.

    I'm not sure anyone can say how the field is generated, it's just an effect that occurs anytime an electric current flows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So the magnetic and the electric fields of the electrons are static? And how do the magnetic field is created?
    Yes, they are static - unless the current changes in intensity or direction.
    Why do you think that the direction of current will be changed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So the magnetic and the electric fields of the electrons are static? And how do the magnetic field is created?
    Yes, they are static - unless the current changes in intensity or direction.
    Why do you think that the direction of current will be changed?
    I didn't say it WOULD be changed, I said UNLESS it is changed. Big difference. :wink: It could be changed because it's an AC current or because of something someone did to the circuit.
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    Obviously you didn't understand me. I didn't say CHANGING magnetic or electric field, I said MOVING magnetic or electric field. Do the fields move with the electrons or not??
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Obviously you didn't understand me. I didn't say CHANGING magnetic or electric field, I said MOVING magnetic or electric field. Do the fields move with the electrons or not??
    No, I didn't misunderstand you and I clearly answered your question - the fields are STATIC - they do not move.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Obviously you didn't understand me. I didn't say CHANGING magnetic or electric field, I said MOVING magnetic or electric field. Do the fields move with the electrons or not??
    No, I didn't misunderstand you and I clearly answered your question - the fields are STATIC - they do not move.
    All electrons have electric field (so the "negative" electric field makes them negative)so if they move, also the field will move.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Obviously you didn't understand me. I didn't say CHANGING magnetic or electric field, I said MOVING magnetic or electric field. Do the fields move with the electrons or not??
    No, I didn't misunderstand you and I clearly answered your question - the fields are STATIC - they do not move.
    All electrons have electric field (so the "negative" electric field makes them negative)so if they move, also the field will move.
    Incorrect statements. The are negative because that is the charge they carry. Protons have a positive charge and electrons have a negative charge.

    The EM field they create when electrons are in motion will NOT change except under the conditions I described earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Obviously you didn't understand me. I didn't say CHANGING magnetic or electric field, I said MOVING magnetic or electric field. Do the fields move with the electrons or not??
    No, I didn't misunderstand you and I clearly answered your question - the fields are STATIC - they do not move.
    All electrons have electric field (so the "negative" electric field makes them negative)so if they move, also the field will move.
    Incorrect statements. The are negative because that is the charge they carry. Protons have a positive charge and electrons have a negative charge.

    The EM field they create when electrons are in motion will NOT change except under the conditions I described earlier.
    But all electrons and protons have electric field. Am I right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Obviously you didn't understand me. I didn't say CHANGING magnetic or electric field, I said MOVING magnetic or electric field. Do the fields move with the electrons or not??
    No, I didn't misunderstand you and I clearly answered your question - the fields are STATIC - they do not move.
    All electrons have electric field (so the "negative" electric field makes them negative)so if they move, also the field will move.
    Incorrect statements. The are negative because that is the charge they carry. Protons have a positive charge and electrons have a negative charge.

    The EM field they create when electrons are in motion will NOT change except under the conditions I described earlier.
    But all electrons and protons have electric field. Am I right?
    No, not in the sense you mean. All matter is composed of atoms and all atoms are composed of electrons and protons. Do you think the chair you are sitting in is emitting an active electric field?
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    They have electric field, but they are NULL, because + and - make 0.
    Look at this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    They have electric field, but they are NULL, because + and - make 0.
    Look at this.
    Correct. And that's exactly what I meant when I said "not in the way you mean."

    And in addition to that, there's what's called an "electrostatic field." That's the very thing that makes solid matter solid - as in keeping you from walking through walls or falling through the floor. But it's NOT an EM field.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    They have electric field, but they are NULL, because + and - make 0.
    Look at this.
    Correct. And that's exactly what I meant when I said "not in the way you mean."

    And in addition to that, there's what's called an "electrostatic field." That's the very thing that makes solid matter solid - as in keeping you from walking through walls or falling through the floor. But it's NOT an EM field.
    And when the electrons move, the electric field will stay in place? It will not go with them?
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    Old Geezer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Old Geezer?
    Please allow me some time to answer - I've other things to do as well. :wink:

    When the electron begin to move they establish a field around the conductor. (It builds up.) But once the field is established, it remains static.
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    And how do the magnetic field is created? We defined about electric field, but about the magnetic field?
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    What do you think? What things contain magnetic field, or what things make magnetic field? (Read my previous post). Thanks
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    Old Geezer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Old Geezer?
    Very sorry. I often have little time to do more than reply to a single post or two and usually not as completely as I would like even then.

    But I'll try to get back to you very soon - which question would you like answered first when I do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Old Geezer?
    Very sorry. I often have little time to do more than reply to a single post or two and usually not as completely as I would like even then.

    But I'll try to get back to you very soon - which question would you like answered first when I do?
    The second please. Thank you very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Old Geezer?
    Very sorry. I often have little time to do more than reply to a single post or two and usually not as completely as I would like even then.

    But I'll try to get back to you very soon - which question would you like answered first when I do?
    The second please. Thank you very much.
    You are very welcome, I'm happy to try and help.

    I take this to be the second question, right? "What do you think? What things contain magnetic field, or what things make magnetic field?"

    Natural magnetism is found in elements like iron, cobalt, nickle and their alloys. Without going to deeply into it areas like paramagnetic materials (liquid oxygen is one of several), we can discuss what is known about them.

    On a molecular scale, the atoms of the material form into very tiny clumps called "domains" that are magnetically polarized - meaning they have distinct north and south poles. Normally, their orientation (the direction they are pointing) is totally random to the point that a lump of the material does not act as a magnet.

    But if they are forced to align themselves parallel to each other and all pointing the same direction, then it becomes a magnet and the whole lump has a definite north and south pole. This can be done by either allowing the material to remain undisturbed for a long time in the natural magnetic field of the Earth, or by placing it in close contact with an existing magnet, or by wrapping a coil of current-containing wire around it and making it an electromagnet. When the current is shut off it will retain the alignment of the dipoles and remain a magnet.

    Is that what you wanted to know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Old Geezer?
    Very sorry. I often have little time to do more than reply to a single post or two and usually not as completely as I would like even then.

    But I'll try to get back to you very soon - which question would you like answered first when I do?
    The second please. Thank you very much.
    You are very welcome, I'm happy to try and help.

    I take this to be the second question, right? "What do you think? What things contain magnetic field, or what things make magnetic field?"

    Natural magnetism is found in elements like iron, cobalt, nickle and their alloys. Without going to deeply into it areas like paramagnetic materials (liquid oxygen is one of several), we can discuss what is known about them.

    On a molecular scale, the atoms of the material form into very tiny clumps called "domains" that are magnetically polarized - meaning they have distinct north and south poles. Normally, their orientation (the direction they are pointing) is totally random to the point that a lump of the material does not act as a magnet.

    But if they are forced to align themselves parallel to each other and all pointing the same direction, then it becomes a magnet and the whole lump has a definite north and south pole. This can be done by either allowing the material to remain undisturbed for a long time in the natural magnetic field of the Earth, or by placing it in close contact with an existing magnet, or by wrapping a coil of current-containing wire around it and making it an electromagnet. When the current is shut off it will retain the alignment of the dipoles and remain a magnet.

    Is that what you wanted to know?
    Yes, to be concrete, I am investigating what could possible cause the magnetic field around the electrons within wire with current? So what things contain magnetic field or something. And I also want to know, if I move electric field among coil in closed circular loop, will I induce current?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Yes, to be concrete, I am investigating what could possible cause the magnetic field around the electrons within wire with current?
    I'm afraid that would require more explaining than is possible here. Im part because no one is totally sure and the debate has been running on for ages. In short, no one is really certain of the answer to that question.

    So what things contain magnetic field or something.
    I just gave you a list of all the things you would normally find.

    And I also want to know, if I move electric field among coil in closed circular loop, will I induce current?
    Yes, absolutely. That's the very principle used in all electric transformers.
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    So, what is then the difference between magnetic and electric field? Seems to be nothing. Same "structures".
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So, what is then the difference between magnetic and electric field? Seems to be nothing. Same "structures".
    They are quite different. In fact, it takes both to make electromagnetic radiation - light waves, radio, TV, microwaves. They exist at a 90-degree angle to each other and we can make good use of that fact by polarizing beams to reduce interference.

    On the simple side of things, consider that a magnet produces ONLY a magnetic field - there is no electrical component present at all around an ordinary magnet.
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    But also the electron is charge so it electrical component and there is magnetic field also around it, when there is current.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    But also the electron is charge so it electrical component and there is magnetic field also around it, when there is current.
    Yes, but there are also electrons around ever single atom in a steel bar magnet. And yet there is only a magentic field present - no electrical field at all.
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    So, have you ever wonder what actually makes the magnetic field around the electrons with current within wire or coil? I think I have one theory but don't know if it is true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So, have you ever wonder what actually makes the magnetic field around the electrons with current within wire or coil? I think I have one theory but don't know if it is true.
    I would like to hear your idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So, have you ever wonder what actually makes the magnetic field around the electrons with current within wire or coil? I think I have one theory but don't know if it is true.
    yes brother, you are most welcomed.
    Present your idea.
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    First, let's define some things. When there is some interaction between electrons and protons (let's say we move electron to the proton), the proton exerts attractive force (electric force), and that force we can describe by the electric fields and lines. So when there are electrons around the protons and neutrons, the electrons force is neutralized, and also the protons force is neutralized (if the presence of protons and electrons is equal). So that means that there is no electric force, no electric field. But if I move the electron (also its electric field is moving) so the place where the proton is stays positive (if the electric field of the electrons is static, then the place around the protons will be neutral). But there is one important thing. The charge and electric field again will be neutral. Why? Because from the one side, we have lack of electrons, and from the other excess of electrons. So we have two "big" charges (+ and -) and they neutralize them selfs. Look at this picture. I wait to accept my theory and then go on. Thank you very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    First, let's define some things. When there is some interaction between electrons and protons (let's say we move electron to the proton), the proton exerts attractive force (electric force), and that force we can describe by the electric fields and lines. So when there are electrons around the protons and neutrons, the electrons force is neutralized, and also the protons force is neutralized (if the presence of protons and electrons is equal). So that means that there is no electric force, no electric field. But if I move the electron (also its electric field is moving) so the place where the proton is stays positive (if the electric field of the electrons is static, then the place around the protons will be neutral). But there is one important thing. The charge and electric field again will be neutral. Why? Because from the one side, we have lack of electrons, and from the other excess of electrons. So we have two "big" charges (+ and -) and they neutralize them selfs. Look at this picture. I wait to accept my theory and then go on. Thank you very much.
    So far, so good. Please continue.
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    So where does the electric and magnetic field come from? When we move the magnet among the coil, to induce current, we "force" the electrons to go from one to another side, BUT, in same time, we excite them. So they release their excess of energy in form of light. And we know that light is moving electromagnetic field. That's how we get the electric and magnetic field. But, what about the other electrons in the wire. They also have electromagnetic field around them. But how is possible, when they are not affected by the magnetic field at all? When the electrons repel, they have interaction between their electric fields so, they excite themselfs, and also release that energy in form of light. I hope you understand this part. I will wait first for reply then go on. Thank you very much.
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    Old Geezer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So where does the electric and magnetic field come from? When we move the magnet among the coil, to induce current, we "force" the electrons to go from one to another side, BUT, in same time, we excite them. So they release their excess of energy in form of light. And we know that light is moving electromagnetic field. That's how we get the electric and magnetic field. But, what about the other electrons in the wire. They also have electromagnetic field around them. But how is possible, when they are not affected by the magnetic field at all? When the electrons repel, they have interaction between their electric fields so, they excite themselfs, and also release that energy in form of light. I hope you understand this part. I will wait first for reply then go on. Thank you very much.
    Well, a few minor points need to be corrected.

    First, simply inducing electrons to move by the use of a magent doesn't excite them to that point that they release energy in the form of light (photons). That requires inducing a MUCH larger amount of energy - enough to heat the wire several hundred degrees in order to make it glow.

    Also, keep in mind that only a very few electrons in the outer-most shell are moveable anyway. The rest stay firmly attached in their orbits and play no role in electricity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    So where does the electric and magnetic field come from? When we move the magnet among the coil, to induce current, we "force" the electrons to go from one to another side, BUT, in same time, we excite them. So they release their excess of energy in form of light. And we know that light is moving electromagnetic field. That's how we get the electric and magnetic field. But, what about the other electrons in the wire. They also have electromagnetic field around them. But how is possible, when they are not affected by the magnetic field at all? When the electrons repel, they have interaction between their electric fields so, they excite themselfs, and also release that energy in form of light. I hope you understand this part. I will wait first for reply then go on. Thank you very much.
    Well, a few minor points need to be corrected.

    First, simply inducing electrons to move by the use of a magent doesn't excite them to that point that they release energy in the form of light (photons). That requires inducing a MUCH larger amount of energy - enough to heat the wire several hundred degrees in order to make it glow.

    Also, keep in mind that only a very few electrons in the outer-most shell are moveable anyway. The rest stay firmly attached in their orbits and play no role in electricity.
    Also I will correct you. First the electrons in metal are free to move. They are not moving in any orbital. Other think, we are not making the wire to glow. Yes it is true it must be several hundred degrees to make it glow but we want to make current, not to make the wire glow, so they release small energy in form of light. Other thing, do you know how actually the lamp (light bulb) works? Here is part from Wikipedia:

    "Incandescent light bulbs consist of a glass enclosure (the envelope, or bulb) which the bulb with an inert gas reduces evaporation of the filament and reduces the required strength of the glass. Inside of the bulb is a filament of tungsten wire, through which an electrical current is passed. The current heats the filament to an extremely high temperature (typically 2000K to 3300K depending on the filament type, shape, size, and amount of current passed through). Heated atoms within the filament intensely vibrate. The electrons, which are charged particles now strongly oscilating, radiate excess energy in the form of black body radiation, according to Maxwell's equations"

    Look at the bold one! You see that current (moving electrons in one direction) can heat the filament to an extremely high temperature? (That means that the electrons with their electric field excite the electrons in the filament are more "sensitive" so they release higher energy which is not case with other metal.
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  42. #41 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
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  43. #42 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
    Do you know what actually is electric field? With electric field we visualize the electric force (the attractive or repel force). So if there is not force, there is nothing that we can visualize. I changed my mind. Now I think that the magnetic and electric field are just around the coil, not in the wire. Why? Because think about it. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and proton are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
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  44. #43 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
    Do you know what actually is electric field? With electric field we visualize the electric force (the attractive or repel force). So if there is not force, there is nothing that we can visualize. I changed my mind. Now I think that the magnetic and electric field are just around the coil, not in the wire. Why? Because think about it. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and proton are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    No, that is incorrect. "Wire" and "coil" are actually the same thing. The coil is made of wire.

    The fields are present around any conductor (wire) that is carrying an electric current. All a coil does is concentrate them into a smaller area (volume). So if the fields didn't exist around the wire, they would not exist with a coil either. It's the actual movement of the electrons that produces the fields.
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  45. #44 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
    Do you know what actually is electric field? With electric field we visualize the electric force (the attractive or repel force). So if there is not force, there is nothing that we can visualize. I changed my mind. Now I think that the magnetic and electric field are just around the coil, not in the wire. Why? Because think about it. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and proton are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    No, that is incorrect. "Wire" and "coil" are actually the same thing. The coil is made of wire.

    The fields are present around any conductor (wire) that is carrying an electric current. All a coil does is concentrate them into a smaller area (volume). So if the fields didn't exist around the wire, they would not exist with a coil either. It's the actual movement of the electrons that produces the fields.
    I am saying about the wire which makes the closed circular loop, not the wire in the coil. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and protons are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
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  46. #45 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
    Do you know what actually is electric field? With electric field we visualize the electric force (the attractive or repel force). So if there is not force, there is nothing that we can visualize. I changed my mind. Now I think that the magnetic and electric field are just around the coil, not in the wire. Why? Because think about it. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and proton are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    No, that is incorrect. "Wire" and "coil" are actually the same thing. The coil is made of wire.

    The fields are present around any conductor (wire) that is carrying an electric current. All a coil does is concentrate them into a smaller area (volume). So if the fields didn't exist around the wire, they would not exist with a coil either. It's the actual movement of the electrons that produces the fields.
    I am saying about the wire which makes the closed circular loop, not the wire in the coil. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and protons are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    That's still wrong. The fields exist around all wires carring electric current.
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  47. #46 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
    Do you know what actually is electric field? With electric field we visualize the electric force (the attractive or repel force). So if there is not force, there is nothing that we can visualize. I changed my mind. Now I think that the magnetic and electric field are just around the coil, not in the wire. Why? Because think about it. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and proton are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    No, that is incorrect. "Wire" and "coil" are actually the same thing. The coil is made of wire.

    The fields are present around any conductor (wire) that is carrying an electric current. All a coil does is concentrate them into a smaller area (volume). So if the fields didn't exist around the wire, they would not exist with a coil either. It's the actual movement of the electrons that produces the fields.
    I am saying about the wire which makes the closed circular loop, not the wire in the coil. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and protons are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    That's still wrong. The fields exist around all wires carring electric current.
    Please read my other topic.
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  48. #47 Re: are the electric field and magnetic field moving with th 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    Quote Originally Posted by scientist91
    are the electric field and magnetic field moving with the electrons in wire with current?
    An electric field or a magentic field cannot be said to move. If a charged particle moves by you at constant velocity then it can be said that the EM field surrounding the moving charge is changing but it cannot be said to be moving.

    Take as an examle a cylindrically symmetrric magnet (in vacuum) rotating about the axis of symmetry. This all takes place in the inertial frame S. Now place a charged particle near the rotating magnetic. You might imagine that the magnetic field lines are moving past the charge and that there is a magnetic force exerted on the charge. This, of course, is impossible because a magnetic force is exerted only on moving charges. There will be a force exerrted on the charge though, and electric force. As the cylinder rotates the charge distribution redistributes itself to create and electric field. If you hold that the field itself really does move then you run into a paradox. I'd post a link to a page I created as a result of my studying this system but it appears as if I overloaded my transfer for today.

    Best wishes

    Pete
    Do you know what actually is electric field? With electric field we visualize the electric force (the attractive or repel force). So if there is not force, there is nothing that we can visualize. I changed my mind. Now I think that the magnetic and electric field are just around the coil, not in the wire. Why? Because think about it. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and proton are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    No, that is incorrect. "Wire" and "coil" are actually the same thing. The coil is made of wire.

    The fields are present around any conductor (wire) that is carrying an electric current. All a coil does is concentrate them into a smaller area (volume). So if the fields didn't exist around the wire, they would not exist with a coil either. It's the actual movement of the electrons that produces the fields.
    I am saying about the wire which makes the closed circular loop, not the wire in the coil. If one particle go forward, the electron behind it is taking its place. So the electric fields of the electrons and protons are canceling each other. Think about it. I think that around the wire there is not electric or magnetic field.
    That's still wrong. The fields exist around all wires carring electric current.
    Please read my other topic.
    I just did and replied to it.
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  49. #48  
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    So again, can that electromagnetic field be from the photons that the electrons release?
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