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Thread: Stability of the HA

  1. #1 Stability of the HA 
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    Stability of the Hydrogen Atom:

    According to classical physics, the hydrogen atom is composed of an
    electron orbiting a proton and the assumption here is that the electron
    would eventually plunge into the proton because the velocity could not keep it in orbit because of losing its energy.

    Using classical physics though, I would like to explain why that does
    not happen.
    The electrons revolution around the proton causes the proton to spin
    in the same direction as its motion and the closer the electron
    approaches the proton, the higher its velocity and subsequently, the
    higher the proton spin. This proton spin which is synchronous with the
    electrons motion generates a magnetic field of its own and this field
    creates a repulsion toward the electrons magnetic field which results
    from its motion around the proton. These magnetic fields reach a
    balanced state in the ground state orbit of the electron and this
    repulsion keeps the electron in that state until some disturbing
    photonic pressure changes that state.

    The only reason why classical physics failed here is that the
    calculations were incomplete. If the proton spin and resulting
    magnetic field imteractons were taken into account, this formula would be
    complete and it would not fail. As long as there is no excitation,
    the hydrogen atom will remain in its ground state indefinitely.

    This can be easily proven with the 'right hand (electron) and the left hand (proton) rules. Just clench your fists and put them close to each other near your body with the thumbs sticking outward. The thumbs represent the particle motions. The proton spin side is moving in the same direction as the electron. The fingers represent the 'magnetic field' directions.
    Notice that fingers on both sides move upward and outward from each other. This indicates that the field lines of the electron and the proton move in the same direction. This indicates a repulsion within these fields.

    While in the ground state, the hydrogen atom will radiate a one
    angstrom (approximately) sign wavw continuum. All other hydrogen atoms
    in the same ground state will do likewise. Therefore, there will be no
    loss or absorption of energy between them.

    NS


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  3. #2  
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    Moved from cosmology.

    If this worked for Hydrogen it would not work for atoms of a higher atomic number due to there being multiple electrons (the nucleus could only spin at 1 rate). That being the case other atoms would show a more advanced decay, and I believe hydrogen would not then bond with other atoms. Myth busted.


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    The concept of an electron as a bullet-like "particle" whizzing around another one is just wrong, Mike. You'll never get it to work, really. The electron doesn't "have" a magnetic field. The quantum leap is that it is the electromagnetic field, wrapped and spinning round on itself.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Moved from cosmology.

    If this worked for Hydrogen it would not work for atoms of a higher atomic number due to there being multiple electrons (the nucleus could only spin at 1 rate). That being the case other atoms would show a more advanced decay, and I believe hydrogen would not then bond with other atoms. Myth busted.
    Mega

    I inserted another paragraph in there that I originally left out. Follow directions and prove it to yourself.

    You are familiar with the 'right hand rule' as applied to the electrons, are you not?
    Since the positive current moves in the opposite direction, the left hand rule would apply to the proton.

    NS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    The concept of an electron as a bullet-like "particle" whizzing around another one is just wrong, Mike. You'll never get it to work, really. The electron doesn't "have" a magnetic field. The quantum leap is that it is the electromagnetic field, wrapped and spinning round on itself.
    You certainly do not know anything about electronics, do you? Or physics for that matter.

    The electron and the proton are the most researched particles in physics.
    They have MASS, charge and are surrounded by 'fields' that are REAL.
    They even have PHYSICAL size that is determined to be 10^-14 maters.

    Schroedingers orbitals are 'timeless' representations of electrons in close proximity such as molecules and more complex elements.
    Stop the 'clock' to an instant in time and the electrons will reveal themselves as a particle somewhere within that orbital.
    Electrons in close poximaty interact to continually change their orbital positions but remain at the same distance from the protons IMO.

    NS
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  7. #6  
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    Mike,
    I'm a hell of a lot more familiar with flemming's rules than you are with our fourum rules, Again you totally ignore my requests not to post 2 or more in a row, [ie above you have posted two in a row with very little time between] you MUST learn to edit your post to add it the extra stuff in or WAIT until you have everything and say it in one go. The odd double post is not seen as a problem but you really aqre streching things a bit far. I hate to put things like this up in public but your constant inability to monitor or read incoming PM's leaves me no choice. In future I will delete and second/subsequent post's of yours but return the text to you in the form of a PM.
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  8. #7  
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    Mike, where is the maths? Do the maths and you will see your idea doesn't hold water.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike NS
    You certainly do not know anything about electronics, do you? Or physics for that matter...
    LOL, Mike, if only you knew. But nevermind. You carry on.
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  10. #9  
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    There's also the minor problem that you can actually image the electrons around an atom with x-ray diffraction experiments, and the electrons clearly occupy the "orbitals" predicted by quantum physics rather than the planet-like orbitals of classical physics. We’ve looked at where the electrons are, and they are exactly where quantum physics says they should be.
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  11. #10  
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    More Mike NonSense.

    This even gives pseudoscience a bad rap.

    Bunk.
    Crap.
    Bollocks.
    Horse pucky.
    "... the polhode rolls without slipping on the herpolhode lying in the invariable plane."
    ~Footnote in Goldstein's Mechanics, 3rd ed. p. 202
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  12. #11 Re: Stability of the HA 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike NS
    Stability of the Hydrogen Atom:

    According to classical physics, the hydrogen atom is composed of an
    electron orbiting a proton and the assumption here is that the electron
    would eventually plunge into the proton because the velocity could not keep it in orbit because of losing its energy.

    Using classical physics though, I would like to explain why that does
    not happen.
    The electrons revolution around the proton causes the proton to spin
    in the same direction as its motion and the closer the electron
    approaches the proton, the higher its velocity and subsequently, the
    higher the proton spin. This proton spin which is synchronous with the
    electrons motion generates a magnetic field of its own and this field
    creates a repulsion toward the electrons magnetic field which results
    from its motion around the proton. These magnetic fields reach a
    balanced state in the ground state orbit of the electron and this
    repulsion keeps the electron in that state until some disturbing
    photonic pressure changes that state.

    The only reason why classical physics failed here is that the
    calculations were incomplete. If the proton spin and resulting
    magnetic field imteractons were taken into account, this formula would be
    complete and it would not fail. As long as there is no excitation,
    the hydrogen atom will remain in its ground state indefinitely.

    This can be easily proven with the 'right hand (electron) and the left hand (proton) rules. Just clench your fists and put them close to each other near your body with the thumbs sticking outward. The thumbs represent the particle motions. The proton spin side is moving in the same direction as the electron. The fingers represent the 'magnetic field' directions.
    Notice that fingers on both sides move upward and outward from each other. This indicates that the field lines of the electron and the proton move in the same direction. This indicates a repulsion within these fields.

    While in the ground state, the hydrogen atom will radiate a one
    angstrom (approximately) sign wavw continuum. All other hydrogen atoms
    in the same ground state will do likewise. Therefore, there will be no
    loss or absorption of energy between them.

    NS
    Oh my God !!!

    You just get worse !!

    Sorry mate I think you need to stop smoking the waccy baccy for a while ! :wink:

    Could it not be that.....the electron is attracted to the proton upto a certain point, where the force actually becomes repulsive.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
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  13. #12  
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    Mega has muzzled me so I will be off for a couple of days.
    Sorry if you guys are hurting.

    NS
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  14. #13  
    Forum Professor river_rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike NS

    Mega has muzzled me so I will be off for a couple of days.
    Sorry if you guys are hurting.

    NS
    Huh - why have you been banned Mike?
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike NS

    Mega has muzzled me so I will be off for a couple of days.
    Sorry if you guys are hurting.

    NS
    ????????????????????

    Bollocks Mike, I sent you a PM asking you YET again to desist from posting 2 or more posts in a row, you have not been banned.
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  16. #15  
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    Mike has shown over and over that he has a problem with laws - whether they be forum, or physical laws....
    "... the polhode rolls without slipping on the herpolhode lying in the invariable plane."
    ~Footnote in Goldstein's Mechanics, 3rd ed. p. 202
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  17. #16  
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    Mega

    I never said I was banned. Just muzzled temporarily. Ha ha.
    So I am back now to promote my Truth.

    To all.
    Read my added paragraph on the magnetic interaction between the electron and the proton in the original article. The rules I provide are real physics to follow.

    William

    Looks like you 'blew' zelos out to another planet, ha ha.

    NS
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