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Thread: LHC

  1. #1 LHC 
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    Hi all I am new here,

    I dont know much about physics

    Is there any truth to the articles about the new LHC possiblly destroying the earth

    Thank You


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  3. #2  
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    You mean that big whirly thing they are building to smash up sub atomic particles?

    They said Hydrogen bombs would create a chain reaction in the sea and destroy the planet, anyway, I 'll get back to you after they have tried it out, should have a better idea then! :wink:

    Welcome to the forum, I'm sure we'll meet again, if you haven't read the rules it could be even sooner! -


    Have a nice-stay!


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    So you think its possible then Mega
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  5. #4  
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    I cannot for one moment imagine that such a large group of knowledgeable scientists would deliberately build a machine that they know would lead to their own immediate self-destruction.

    If I had said might instead of would, you would have replied "Aha what about the A-Bomb!".
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  6. #5  
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    I dont think you am getting my question Mega.

    Which the particle tests they are doing is creating a black hole that can swallow the earth possible
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  7. #6  
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    I have answered your orignal question "Is there any truth to the articles about the new LHC possiblly destroying the earth "
    by initially suggesting I would get back to you when it was up and running.

    If you expect me to answer the points raised in any article you have read, well I'm not psychic, you would have to provide a link where I may read the article and comment.

    To the question
    "So you think its possible then Mega"
    I never said I thought it was possible, then I clarified the point with "I cannot for one moment imagine that such a large group of knowledgeable scientists would deliberately build a machine that they know would lead to their own immediate self-destruction."

    Now you appear to be asking a totally different question about a specific yet unamed particle.
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  8. #7  
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    I have to confess I'm a little concerned about the LHC. Especially when they mention the black holes.

    http://focus.aps.org/story/v16/st12

    And what if they don't blink out of existence?
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  9. #8  
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    Sorry I meant these articles
    http://www.exitmundi.nl/vacuum.htm

    http://www.exitmundi.nl/strange.htm

    and http://www.exitmundi.nl/blackholes_lab.htm

    these are more reader friendly sites aimed at the everyman

    a little more scientific here http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
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  10. #9  
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    I would suggest that any such black hole created would 'melt down' as soon as it's mass reached the density of a nuetron star, surely this would be after consuming only a tiny fraction of matter, say a kilogram or so. THis would then accelerate to the centre of the earth and continue right out the other side, and then return, the coriolis effect would 'twist' the exit position each time. Every 45 minutes it will have drilled a hole through the earth, at two specific lattitudes until the earth was 'sliced into 3 parts - the effect on plate techtonics would be awsome it would grow with each pass, each 'hole' would be slightly larger than the last.

    I cannot see that is would have sufficient mass to destroy the earth in 1 second as at least one article predicts. I may be wrong, indeed from a humane point of view it might be desirable.

    I have speculated in the past that if you could go back to the site of the big bang you would find two dead aliens and a smouldering laboratory.

    If we can contain them though I think I'd like to propose a new design for a revolutionary type of bagless vacuum cleaner!
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    ...I have speculated in the past that if you could go back to the site of the big bang you would find two dead aliens and a smouldering laboratory...
    Noted. I read stuff like "energies not seen since the Big Bang" and feel rather uncomfortable.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    ...I have speculated in the past that if you could go back to the site of the big bang you would find two dead aliens and a smouldering laboratory...
    Noted. I read stuff like "energies not seen since the Big Bang" and feel rather uncomfortable.
    Well,whats the chance of a similar action being seen in the explosion of an atomic warhead?

    Who know's what exotic little goodies exist in these explosions for a few pico seconds...

    Tell you what I'll give you odds of... no you're 'fartobright' to fall for that one. Anyway I've got this lovely bottle of scotch ready just in case....

    Replace 'fear' with humor - at least you'll die happy!

    I know it's serious though, one can only hope science community who are building this thing are right, as I said remember the H-Bomb "It will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the universe"
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    No kidding Megabrain, I see myself as somebody with a sincere interest in physics, I'm no skeptic, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But I'd stop LHC if I could.

    http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
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  14. #13  
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    Fortune favours the brave farsight, and joking apart there is a long list of scientists who have died in their attempts to find the truth, Marie Curie being perhaps the most well known.

    I am scared stiff of heights, yet I used to climb tall structures and keep the fear under control, I did this by looking at the structure before climbing it and saying to myself "As an engineer I can see it is capable of supporting my weight" [I'm referring to antennae towers supported by thin steel guide cables].

    This time, like you, I cannot look at it and decide....
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  15. #14  
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    This is alot like RHIC in Brookhaven apparently this one

    most of the energy the LHC consumes goes into the superconducting magnets not into the acceleration.
    They accelerate two LHC beams that will consist each of 2835 bunches of 1011 particles each.
    Once the 7 TeV energy is reached, the beams will counter-rotate for several hours, and during this time the particles will make four hundred million revolutions around the machine, a truly astronomical number.

    At each turn, the beams will be forced to collide in determined places, where the experiments are located.
    To put that into perspective, one ounce is approximately 28 grams, about as heavy as a stack of ten U.S. pennies. .0003 inches is about 7.6 microns (micrometers), or about 1/7 the thickness of a human hair.

    In other words, the energy in such a collision would be able to lift a single penny about one hair's breadth.
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  16. #15  
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    Or you could read the whole article at:

    http://athome.web.cern.ch/athome/LHC/operations.html
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  17. #16  
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    has construction on that thing finished yet?
    i must say its taking a while.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallaby
    has construction on that thing finished yet?
    i must say its taking a while.
    Farsight and possibly I might argue "The longer the better"

    Farsight, If there are thousands of millions of alien species out there, many in advance of us, isn't it likely that they would have already pulled the plug on things?

    Also the tremendous variation of possibilities in the universe make it probable that that nature herself could destroy the universe?

    What effect does does matter slamming into a black hole have? It does not destroy the universe, so as I said in a previous post, a small black hole may be generated - but I would think highly unlikely that it would.
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    my question is what method of containment have they said the'll use, it look pritty small and unprotected, therefore if it did cause a small singulaity to spawn, there would be nothing to stop it from submiting to the force of gravity and relocating to the centrl core of the earth therefore theoreticly consuming the inner core material and adding significantly to the earths gravitational pull for a short time before it completely drained the core and catastrophic events started to happen, like loss of the greenhouse effect and atmosphere.

    look at me, the optomist =)
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  20. #19  
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    You are wrong about 'settling at the earth's core, read my previous post in which I describe how it would behave.
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    Whats makes you say this is it look pritty small and unprotected,
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  22. #21  
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    Since a singularity has infinite density yet no 'size' it would fall through any material, the earth's gravity would accelerate it to the point where it would 'fall through the earth' and out the other side, as I said coriolis would do the rest. as it passed through it would 'absorb' the atoms around it.
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  23. #22  
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    Just out of curiousity how much do you understand physics and this experiment
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    1. The BH would be attracted by earth and accelerated to its gravitational center. It would pass it, would then be decelerated and would fall back to the gravitational center. After some periods it would come to rest at the gravitational center.
    2. As mass consists mainly of free room and the BH is much smaller than the particles, I doubt that the BH would hit anything on its way.
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  25. #24  
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    I omitted in my previous reply it would continue to punch holes in the earth, but I see I did make that point in my original, and as I said Coriolis would do the rest, even if it only initially collected 1 atom every pass it would grow exponentially... - with effectively nothing to stop it, and no friction it would continue to pass through the earth every 45 minutes.

    A bit like "The revenge of the pacman" :wink:
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    you an impression of the energies involved with cosmic "radiation".
    The LHC is 26km long. In order to give a particle the energy of a cosmic radiation particle we would have to build an accelerator as big as our galaxy, even slightly bigger.
    An accelerator that would be powered by the energetic output of several stars...
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  27. #26  
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    and
    why should it grow exponentially?
    If it would collect one particle per pass it would grow by one particle per pass.
    So with every pass it would grow at a smaller rate in respect of its mass.

    But, I doubt that it would collect something at all. The odds of a such small thing as two particles compressed to have an event horizon hitting something in the vast nothing of an atom ...
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I have speculated in the past that if you could go back to the site of the big bang you would find two dead aliens and a smouldering laboratory.
    Possibly.

    Strange quarks. Got to love 'em.

    I wouldnt be seriously worried about the LHC. If we die we die. At least we all went out together as a team !!
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  29. #28 Ball lightning. 
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    Its possible that black holes exist in the centre of ball lightning.

    It is ALSO possible that at the very centre of every planet lies a black-hole. crushed there by the density, and that is where gravity comes from. Although mini-black holes would be tugging on matter, i dont think they could swallow anything which has mass.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  30. #29 why ? 
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    Why would a particle accelerator need to be as large as the solar system to create particles moving so fast ?

    I dont understand; yes the LHC is only 26km but technically speaking as the particles travel is what they deem to be a straight line. (warped by electro-magnets) then in theory, just keep it going, keep it accelerating....the accelerator could easily be a light year across. (if you kept the particles accelerating for just over a year) - or am I missing somemthing here ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  31. #30 another quickie........ 
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    Another quickie on the LHC..........

    I would actually laugh SO much if when smashing quarks together, they ended up with more bits, and so on.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    A planetary mass crushes a BH? You cannot crush something like a BH. The BH might hold the planet together by its gravitational force, the problem is then that it would be large enough to accret a significant amount of mass. So the planet would vanish inside the BH. BH swallow anything as anything has mass.

    You could not keep a particle with the energy of a cosmic radiation particle on track inside the LHC because the electro-magnets are not strong enough to bend its way around the ring.

    You cannot smash quarks together. You cannot even accelerate single quarks. You cannot even store single quarks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmpbmp1975
    and
    why should it grow exponentially?
    If it would collect one particle per pass it would grow by one particle per pass.
    So with every pass it would grow at a smaller rate in respect of its mass.

    But, I doubt that it would collect something at all. The odds of a such small thing as two particles compressed to have an event horizon hitting something in the vast nothing of an atom ...
    your forgeting about the cummulative effect, if it collects 1 atom and it grows by one atom, it would then be the size of 2 atoms and would collect 2 atoms, then 4, then 8, and so on.. untill the size would be truly massive expunging huge ammounts of matter.
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  34. #33  
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    and here's me thinking black holes don't grow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallaby
    and here's me thinking black holes don't grow.
    Hiezenburgs uncertainty theory states that energy or matter never ceses to exist, it just changes forms, taking that into consideration a blackhole dosnt just anniahlate matter, it feeds on it, growing in size itself.
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  36. #35  
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    [quote="bmpbmp1975"]
    You could not keep a particle with the energy of a cosmic radiation particle on track inside the LHC because the electro-magnets are not strong enough to bend its way around the ring.quote]

    Is it not possible to just stick stronger electo-magnets on there; you know, give it more coils and more power, like ?

    Why would the ring need to be longer i mean ?

    you know black-holes which are in the centre of active galaxies? As far as im aware they have huge jets coming from the poles of gama-rays.

    I am wondering, does a black hole actually swallow matter or merely unravel it into a wave energy ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  37. #36  
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    Of course, it's always possible that something else might be created. Like a really

    BIG

    BANG.
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  38. #37  
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    Farsight STOP that now! -- You are upsetting the little ones who are running around in all sorts of chaos. If the worse comes to the worse then DUCK and COVER!
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  39. #38 I Wouldn't worry 
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    I wouldn't worry about anything....as im pretty sure that my wife creates a black hole every time she opens her mouth.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  40. #39 Re: I Wouldn't worry 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    I wouldn't worry about anything....as im pretty sure that my wife creates a black hole every time she opens her mouth.
    Well don't get too close, you might just get sucked in. 8)
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  41. #40 lol 
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    lol
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  42. #41  
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    No it would not! Initially it would have the mass of two protons. These two protons have nerly no gravitational effect. Adding another proton or even a bigger nuclei does not change that. Just because it has now 3 protons or more does not mean that it would hit multiple nuclei as its size stays the same.

    You can compare an atom roughly with our solar system. Mainly empty space with some tiny rocks in it.
    Image you would throw an orange size object through our solar system. How likely would it be to hit something?
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  43. #42  
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    Ever tried to put a football in a golfing hole ?

    It doesnt work.

    I dont think that we have anything to fear from MBH.

    Oh and if these black holes join up together. My humble knowledge of mathematics tells me that: zero size in dimension x a billion trillion trillion = zero dimension in size.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  44. #43  
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    Where do you get that a black hole has no size? A black hole with the mass of the earth is around the size of a small marble (about a cm).
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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    the coils of the LHC generate a field of 9 Tesla!!! As to what I know these are the strongest coils on mother earth.

    You have to increase its radius because the bend the particles have to take decreases.

    Those BH have a mass of million times the mass of our sun. We are talking about Micro Black Holes with Masses of two protons.... Apples with Oranges

    I will keep it simple:
    A Black hole accrets matter into a disk around it. On its way spiraling in that matter gets faster and faster and reaches almost the speed of light.
    At that speeds it radiates energy away depending on its speed.
    When the matter passes the event horizon it simply vanishes.

    For the jets look here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_jets
    These are believed to be responsible for the cosmic radiation.
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  46. #45 its doesnt vanish 
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    No, I believe that it doesn't vanish, it radiates the matter outwards in the form of er, high energy radiation. It unravels the quanta as it were.

    Anyway............to inject a little humour into it, ive just gone onto the CERN website to find out exactly when they are going to fire her up.

    I have just finished a little clock which is counting down the seconds, minutes, hours and days until she is due to come on (sitting on the right hand top corner of my desktop) When it comes to 4 minutes it will automatically play "The final countdown by Europe" and then immediately afterwards will play "O Fortuna! from Carima Baruma".....Neat, eh ?

    I just hope i can listen to the end of the latter tune. As I really like it.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  47. #46 9 Tesla 
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    NINE TESLA ??
    Better not walk past it if you have fillings in your teeth or a pacemaker then !!

    What effects would 9 Tesla have on Earth's own magnetic field ?

    MOd Edit: Problem with the keyboard? - Please do not waste space.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Its a local field. So it would have the same effect as you Fridge magnets. None. It just disturbes it locally.

    http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/f.../story_id/8912
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    I'm worried the LHC might break something. Snap, and we won't even know it. The thing that breaks could be the thing called Symmetry. And we all turn into zillion-degree quark-gluon plasma at the speed of light. Uh, no, it'll be even hotter than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    I'm worried the LHC might break something. Snap, and we won't even know it. The thing that breaks could be the thing called Symmetry. And we all turn into zillion-degree quark-gluon plasma at the speed of light. Uh, no, it'll be even hotter than that.
    You might be referring to the idea that we (meaning everyone in the universe) are living in a false vacuum? Or perhaps this is just a real example of the type of thing you could be talking about.
    It's been thrown out there that if this (the false vacuum) is the case, particle accelerators could trigger the end of existence as we know it - check out the wiki article on false vacuums. Check out the last section titled Vacuum Metastability Event.
    I read about this years ago and I'm not sure the current thought on this topic though.
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  51. #50  
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    For all those worried about the LHC, go and research "oh-my-god" particles. If these things haven't destroyed the universe yet then i doubt the LHC will do anything!
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  52. #51  
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    u lost me river rat
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  53. #52  
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    Hi bmpbmp1975

    The "oh-my-god" particles were discovered a while back when one hit our atmosphere in the usual cosmic ray storm. The difference was that this particle had an energy of around 50 joules - about 100 million times more energy then the LHC produces!

    Thats a microscopic particle with a macroscopic energy level - quite mind boggling actually!
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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    so you dont think it is dangerous
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  55. #54  
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    No - if we were in a false vacuum state then something like the "oh-my-god" particle would have kicked us out of it IMHO, but im not a particle physicist so what do i know?
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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    Why don't they go to planet boring in the outer stupidsystem to conduct such an experiment. To be honest, we don't want any black holes, cause we dont like them.
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  57. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeavingQuietly
    Why don't they go to planet boring in the outer stupidsystem to conduct such an experiment. To be honest, we don't want any black holes, cause we dont like them.
    What's the point of doing it elsewhere? - It would only delay the inevitable by a picosecond or two. (If things went wrong that is).
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  58. #57  
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    I bit longer then pico seconds Megabrain - information still has to move at less then the speed of light. So if we did the experiment on pluto and it went wrong we would have between 4 and 6.5 hours of bliss before we were annihilated
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  59. #58 the "oh my god" particle 
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    The "oh my god" particle which you are referring too travelled at nearly the speed of light and hit out atmosphere.; which is relatively slow.

    And we know anyway that when these oh my god particles hit our upper atmosphere they possibly create black holes, which pop in and out of existence ! (Possibly some of them end up lasting a little while longer and create ball lightning.)

    The LHC will take two "oh my god" type particles, send them round the tube in opposing directions and smash them into each other !!
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  60. #59  
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    No, the LHC dreams it could make one "oh-my-god" particle never mind two - did you not miss the point that these particles had 100 million times more energy then what the LHC can produce?

    Oh and how do you get that the speed of light is relatively slow?

    What does "we know that they possibly make black holes" mean? What type of claim is that? I know that i am possibly the queen of sheba but no one would take me seriously if i tried to get a police escort for my weekly shopping trip now would they?
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  61. #60 An article 
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    an uninteresting article on the history of particle accelerators:

    http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerator
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  62. #61  
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    River rat brings up a good point about the LHC not being able to even make energies that compare with what happens with some cosmic rays in nature.

    Also per their site they are smashing beams of protons def not 'oh my God' particles.
    I've always wanted to know why. Just takes me a little longer than most, lol.
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  63. #62 The LHC 
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    Quote Originally Posted by river_rat
    No, the LHC dreams it could make one "oh-my-god" particle never mind two - did you not miss the point that these particles had 100 million times more energy then what the LHC can produce?

    Oh and how do you get that the speed of light is relatively slow?

    What does "we know that they possibly make black holes" mean? What type of claim is that? I know that i am possibly the queen of sheba but no one would take me seriously if i tried to get a police escort for my weekly shopping trip now would they?
    No, i wasnt talking about the oh my god particle travelling at almost C as being slow, I was talking about the earths atmosphere being slow. However at the LHC, they will take TWO high speed protons and smash them into each other at much higher velocities than we could do before.

    Where did you get information that the oh my god particle carries 100 million times more energy than the accelerated particle inside the LHC ? thats not true. It carries more, but nut a hundered million times more.

    And as for mini black holes being created by cosmic particles striking our atmosphere...here is your article:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4446
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  64. #63 LHC 
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    Hi

    Does anybody know the date of the launch of the LHC?

    also do you know if it will be broadcast anywhere, it will be such a tense, nervous day.

    Thank you.
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  65. #64 Re: LHC 
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    Quote Originally Posted by crichton01
    Hi

    Does anybody know the date of the launch of the LHC?

    also do you know if it will be broadcast anywhere, it will be such a tense, nervous day.

    Thank you.
    Yes and No. You would be better off looking here http://press.web.cern.ch/press/ for answers but I wouldn't look at any serious launch until early 2008.

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  66. #65  
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    What does LHC means ?
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  68. #67 Re: LHC 
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    Quote Originally Posted by crichton01
    Hi

    Does anybody know the date of the launch of the LHC?

    also do you know if it will be broadcast anywhere, it will be such a tense, nervous day.

    Thank you.
    Yes, im sure that it will be broadcast the whole world over, in around er 10^-15 seconds.

    Seriously though, well it depends what you mean by "launch".
    Testing of the LHC has already begun. They wont just flip the switch on full power and hope for the best, they will gradually increase particle speeds and energies at every stage of testing. They should reach full energy by November this year.

    Incidentally, can anyone tell me or does anyone know, which is, or should I say, which WOULD have been more powerful ? The LHC or the SSC ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  69. #68  
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    BSW is far more powerful than either of them it's 120 percent proof.
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  70. #69  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    BSW is far more powerful than either of them it's 120 percent proof.
    BSW?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
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  71. #70 experiment 
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    yes but my life was going smoothly, now its fucking made me stressed out about this experiment and the next one in two months if it doesnt fuck up now.
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  72. #71  
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    Enough of these posts about the LHC! There's been about 10 of them saying exactly the same thing over and over again. The solar winds and cosmic rates hit the Earth ten times harder, or more, than the LHC could manage. Get over it. People smarter than you though of the dangers first. They did the math. They know nothing cataclysmic is going to happen.
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  73. #72 Re: experiment 
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    Quote Originally Posted by worriedaboutLHC
    yes but my life was going smoothly, now its fucking made me stressed out about this experiment and the next one in two months if it doesnt fuck up now.
    I don't think it will blow up.

    I also know it will not do anything good. So a project with little purpose is always dangerous one way or the other.

    But the bottom line is, that you and I cannot do anything about it.

    It is the next phase in counterintelligence. Only they will understand the atom, and the new particles they uncover, particles that will change the world, and take out the garbage for you. With their big donut shaped device that will actually negatively accelerate the subatomic particles inside to create rays that can be seen or detected.

    You could probably reproduce the experiment for a couple thousand dollars. With a straight cannon type of device.





    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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  74. #73 Re: experiment 
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    Quote Originally Posted by worriedaboutLHC
    yes but my life was going smoothly, now its fucking made me stressed out about this experiment and the next one in two months if it doesnt fuck up now.
    I didn't help very much with my last comments, so I'm nervous about trying again.
    There really are a lot worse things to worry about: the LHC definitely does not need to be on your list. Humans are really bad at assessing risk. The character of the risk in the impression it makes on their minds outweighs the realistic odds.
    In the year following 911 an extra 1500 Americans were killed on the roads in the US because they chose not to fly, given the risk of a terrorist hijack. Yep, humans can be dumb. Try not to join the herd.

    (And the only time I really felt safe from incoming meteors was standing on the edge of Meteor Crater in Arizona. I mean, what are the chances........?)
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  75. #74  
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    The solar winds and cosmic rates hit the Earth ten times harder
    but do they collide head on with eachother? (not rhetorical, wanna know)



    People smarter than you though of the dangers first. They did the math. They know nothing cataclysmic is going to happen.
    pssst, people make mistakes. and if they really knew what was going to happen, i don't think they would bother with such a complicated experiment.
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  76. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster
    The solar winds and cosmic rates hit the Earth ten times harder (...)
    Oh c'mon, rates are hitting hard nowadays, but to call them cosmic is an exaggeration.
    Leszek. Pronounced [LEH-sheck]. The wondering Slav.
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  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    do they collide head on with eachother?
    What are the odds of that not happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    if they really knew what was going to happen, i don't think they would bother with such a complicated experiment.
    50 years ago we could only guess just what happens as a speeding car impacts concrete. Not that there weren't plenty of auto crashes, by chance. So we devised experiments to study this in a controlled fashion.

    Same for bullets. We "don't know" but we can be can be 100% confident Pandora's box won't open just because of our experiments.
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    Seems no one is fully answering the question ive noticed being raised a few times.. ?

    What basis do we have to say that smashing two things moving at the speed of light directly into eachother will not be dangerous ? The explanation of cosmic rays hitting the earth all the time is not the same scenario clearly.

    Have we ever studied the above situation and the outcome of that ? If not what the hell are we doing ??? :?
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  79. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razien
    Seems no one is fully answering the question ive noticed being raised a few times.. ?

    What basis do we have to say that smashing two things moving at the speed of light directly into eachother will not be dangerous ? The explanation of cosmic rays hitting the earth all the time is not the same scenario clearly.

    Have we ever studied the above situation and the outcome of that ? If not what the hell are we doing ??? :?
    Well, they did it this morning and France and Switzerland appear to be intact.
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    What are the odds of that not happening?
    ...heh, no idea.
    what are the odds of two asteroids colliding perfectly head on? theres a hell of alot of variables that would need to add up for them to hit each other. (namely, perfectly arranged gravitational forces, spread out through most of the universe)

    now to hit eachother with exact equal and opposite force, your looking at a pretty big multiplication of that chance. even when the ratio is adjusted down to the sub-atomic level maybe.

    im not saying anything bad is going to come out of this experiment. i just think its ignorant to think that we have thought of every possibility.

    ...or to say it must happen naturally, without considering the possibility of unknown forces or phenomenon that might cause the effect of such a collision to alter.

    those smartypants building and using this machine are more intelligent and knowledgeable than I, but they sure as hell don't know everything.

    the ideal result for me would be some unexpected, but inconsequential phenomenon, might humble those who think they know everything.

    i suppose the real reason im worried isnt because i see this experiment as dangerous, its just setting a really dangerous precedent. sure this ones safe, but the next one will be slightly less safe, and so it will continue until the chances add up enough to get a hit, and we destroy ourselves, and any record of our existance.

    if you think about why we have found no sign of life out there, the most logical reason has to be intelligence has a tendency to destroy itself. think of it as entropy if you like.
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  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket

    Well, they did it this morning and France and Switzerland appear to be intact.
    It will take several weeks for the atoms to reach the speed to which they have to before smashing into eachother I believe.
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell
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  82. #81  
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    I think that those who know the most about a subject care most about it.
    As I have pointed out in a previous post, these people are taking a risk.

    When we study for exams, we care for what we study: attention to detail: we are "careful". That brings us good marks.

    Those who know most about SCIENCE care most for space-time, and on this planet, they care most for "nature" as we know it.

    In this forum, some people have absolutely NO REGARD for what someone else is saying, and yet they think they are right about what they say about that person.

    I think it is wisest to focus on the ISSUE, the SUBJECT.........not necessarily the "person".


    In the case of the LHC, I don't think these people know what they are doing, because they have no regard for NATURE..........what "may" happen, that sort of thing.

    Has anyone heard of an animal going to hell?

    Noooooo.

    Birds of prey feast on the spirit of these animals, thats why they kill them, ALIVE.

    IT IS ONLY humans who have a larger course digestion in the planet, or above (as it would rarely seem).

    It is my personal belief that only humans go to hell, not animals. Those that reign above the animals have proven they have been caretakers of the planet. And as a scientist, that's pretty hard to come by these days. One way or or another, these (hadron) people are creating their own hole.....so be careful.

    Animals are only lead by bad people. I would like to see feral chewowa's survive in the wild, and how! Feral Poodles: how do they surive in the wild.....!!@!! What an amazing scientific research that would be.
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  83. #82  
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    wow a scientist who believes in hell. now ive seen everything :wink:


    I think it is wisest to focus on the ISSUE, the SUBJECT.........not necessarily the "person"
    well, i agree with that

    although, there are two different kinds of scientists, those who crave knowledge, and those who crave understanding.

    sometimes, in order to gain understanding, not just knowledge, you need to know a little about how someone thinks. in other words, why they think what they do.

    it allows you to read more between the lines.

    as long as you keep your emotions/preconceptions under control, you can actually gain a less biased version of the concept the author is trying to explain (because, by accepting the possibility that they may be right (read:regarding them), you quiet your own preconceptions enough to be relatively unbiased.

    essentially, you have to focus mostly on the subject. but you cant ignore the source. because if the communication of the subject is not sufficient, you might end up disagreeing with your own mis-interpretation.


    oh.. and

    Has anyone heard of an animal going to hell?
    nope, but i'm not sure who to ask.

    for the sake of understanding, i think 'good and bad' a necessary social constructs of the human mind. and 'life and death' are necessary consequences of time. what happens if you take time out of the equation, through not perceiving it, i can honestly say, i don't know, and i don't know how anyone else would either.
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  84. #83  
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    Just for fun, I decided to see how big of a black hole they might manage to make with the LHC. (Go do the math yourself. Look up the Schwarszchild Radius.)

    Assuming they somehow manage to smash 200,000,000 protons worth of matter into one point, the resulting black hole would have a radius of about m. For those of you that need to see the 0's, that's 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 500 meters. BTW, the radius of a proton is about m, and the Planck length is about m.

    Now, if this black hole manages to consume a stray atom of unobtanium, with an atomic weight of over 9000, it's radius would increase by about m. :P A black hole of this size would be losing J of mass-energy per second. An atom of unobtainium only contains J of mass-energy. The black hole would have to eat about atoms of unobtainium every second just to stay the same size. Again, for those of you that need to see the 0's, thats 2,120,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0 atoms. Factoring in the mass, that's very close to the total amount of matter in the universe, which is approximately atoms of mostly hydrogen.

    Now are any of you still worried about micro black holes coming to get you?
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  85. #84  
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    wow this topic just got interesting.

    3 questions magi..


    1. what is the gravitational force/range of this mini-blackhole? at the moment of creation.

    2.black holes lose energy (semi)exponentially? or is your english misleading and all black holes lose/use energy at the same rate? either way, why?

    3. you mentioned it would have to eat a metric-shitload of atoms per second. is that from our perspective or its own. i imagine time would operate quite differently inside it.

    these questions are probably stupid ones, but no harm in asking right?
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  86. #85 True science 
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    A real sciencetist starts with an idea. Then performs an experiment. After the experimental data is collected, the scientist throws out the original idea and goes with the data. Then, if necessary, another experiment is run, and the process is repeated over and over until the truth is learned. False science is built on feelings and ideas with no experimental data to back it, just jumbled math that makes sense to no one, even the scientist.
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  87. #86  
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    A real sciencetist starts with an idea. Then performs an experiment. After the experimental data is collected, the scientist throws out the original idea and goes with the data. Then, if necessary, another experiment is run, and the process is repeated over and over until the truth is learned. False science is built on feelings and ideas with no experimental data to back it, just jumbled math that makes sense to no one, even the scientist.
    this is true.

    however some idea's simply can't be translated into experiments. (because of insufficient technology/knowledge/perception/funding/manpower/energy/whatever)

    should we just ignore them then?

    im sick of progress for the sake of progress. people need to realise that evolution isnt a single track course, it has directions. evolution used to simply mean adjusting to the variables of your environment, and we now control that environment.

    basically, we need to consider where we want to go, before we start running.
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  88. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    wow a scientist who believes in hell. now ive seen everything :wink:


    I think it is wisest to focus on the ISSUE, the SUBJECT.........not necessarily the "person"
    well, i agree with that

    although, there are two different kinds of scientists, those who crave knowledge, and those who crave understanding.

    sometimes, in order to gain understanding, not just knowledge, you need to know a little about how someone thinks. in other words, why they think what they do.

    it allows you to read more between the lines.

    as long as you keep your emotions/preconceptions under control, you can actually gain a less biased version of the concept the author is trying to explain (because, by accepting the possibility that they may be right (read:regarding them), you quiet your own preconceptions enough to be relatively unbiased.

    essentially, you have to focus mostly on the subject. but you cant ignore the source. because if the communication of the subject is not sufficient, you might end up disagreeing with your own mis-interpretation.


    oh.. and

    Has anyone heard of an animal going to hell?
    nope, but i'm not sure who to ask.

    for the sake of understanding, i think 'good and bad' a necessary social constructs of the human mind. and 'life and death' are necessary consequences of time. what happens if you take time out of the equation, through not perceiving it, i can honestly say, i don't know, and i don't know how anyone else would either.

    Sorry, I forgot to explain what hell is.

    Hell is a PLACE, it's not a state of mind.

    It's a space you can't escape.

    The mind is freedom.

    The only way out of hell is accepting your devil, YOU and YOUR JUDGMENETS ON OTHERS, and not being a wise monkey turning a blind eye to the whole thing, wishing it away.......LIKE REALLY USING YOUR MIND TO THINK OF SOMETHING new, like when in hell use your mind, try a new tactic, because everything previously you did obviously didn't work.

    Animals always think, always using their minds.........thinking of something NEW. If they get bored, they are not an animal. Even when they are resting they are thinking of what might be after it.

    Our aim is to be "loving animals"........especially on the cutting edge. "Love", basically, sets us apart from what we understand is "animal".

    This HADRON thing is a SWORD, but do you think any of them are doing what they do for a great "good"? Has that been detailed? They are scientists. They will not find a "god particle" if they don't know what the idea of a human touchstone is.
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  89. #88  
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand

    1. what is the gravitational force/range of this mini-blackhole? at the moment of creation.
    The Schwarzschild radius. 10^-46 m in this case. This is 10^30 times smaller than the radius of an electron.

    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    2.black holes lose energy (semi)exponentially? or is your english misleading and all black holes lose/use energy at the same rate? either way, why?
    Yes, a stellar size BH takes 10^100 years to "evaporate" and the smaller a BH is from the beginning the faster this process is going to be


    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    3. you mentioned it would have to eat a metric-shitload of atoms per second. is that from our perspective or its own. i imagine time would operate quite differently inside it.
    Does not matter as there is no way to exchange information between inside/outside of the BH so there's no difference whether the time "inside" the BH stops or not (which it should as the relative time at higher gravity runs slower than at lower gravity). This creates some problems for thermodynamics by the way


    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    these questions are probably stupid ones, but no harm in asking right?
    Nope those are valid questions and the Hawking-radiation is'nt really easy to understand.

    And about the head-on collision point you raised earlier: it does not matter as the only relevant thing here is the energy of the colliding particles. Some proton with an energy of 10^20 eV (measured energy in the cosmic radiation) slamming into another particle pales the measly 10^14 eV the LHC is able to produce. Even if you have those two beams aimed directly at each other: there will be virtually no "head-on collision". The cross-section of the protons are way too small for this to happen.

    But what really pisses me off is your stance about "progress for progress' sake".
    Do you really know what you are saying?
    If Mr. Cooper whould not have mumbled: "this is interesting" when he looked at the properties of certain semi-conductor material, do you know what you would use to write your messages on this board? A friggin typewriter.
    Or how about this, Micheal Faraday not investigating this odd behaviour of a compass-needle when put next to a loop of wire that is moved through a magnetic field? Just out of curiosity, no real value in the first place. Just wanted to know. No electric generator, you'd still use naphta to fill up you living-room lamp.
    What about Mr. Roentgen and his crazy ideas of some invisible radiation generated by a vacuum tube? Just out of curiosity he investigated this radiation. X-ray diagnostics today.
    Or Mr. Planck and Mr. Heisenberg with those funny thoughts about those weird quantum-effects. No lasers and thus no CD/DVD-player.
    Or that dude from germany finding it odd that some material changed it's magnetic behaviour in response to an applied field so extreme he came up with the term "gigantic magnetostrictive effect"to adequately describe it. Sounds starnge and I know that you don't give flying old rat's behind abou that but without that peculiar bit: no IPod, li'l Bubba.
    I could go on with this until kingdom come.

    This anti-science stance from the position of someone who has got a standard of living people 100 years ago were only dreaming about thanks to the "progress just for progress sake"-approach really pisses me off. We do not know what outcome a scientific experiments really will have until we actually do this experiment.

    Oh, and BTW....evolution does NOT have a direction. You think it does but the fact that we are here is basically a giant stroke of luck. There might as well be some super-intelligent dinosaur descendents inhabiting this lovely little planet.
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by
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    firstly, thanks for the answers.

    secondly, i was slightly tanked when i wrote the progress for progress remark. and thinking more about the direction humanity is heading in. i didn't mean for it to be applied to the LHC as you obviously think i ment. don't know why i felt it necessary to include it in this thread, it was a poorly considered stream of consciousness. sorry.

    however, you said something stupid too.

    Oh, and BTW....evolution does NOT have a direction. You think it does but the fact that we are here is basically a giant stroke of luck. There might as well be some super-intelligent dinosaur descendents inhabiting this lovely little planet.
    its not a giant stroke of luck at all. its cause and effect. do you have any understanding of the mechanisms behind evolution?

    to be honest i think your reading what i was attempting to say differently, taking me for some religious nutter or something.

    sure there is obviously alot of chances (luck) that have added up to me and you having this debate, not very far away from 1 in infinity, if you start from the big bang. but to quote that phenomenon as your proof that evolution, TODAY, doesn't have multiple directions, well, it pisses me off

    i'll assume you were so enraged by the first part of the paragraph, that you missed "evolution used to simply mean adjusting to the variables of your environment, and we now control that environment [those variables]."

    to elaborate further, our environment (social, intellectual, and to a lesser extent, physical) is changing at a rate faster than a single generation. and only getting faster. its a far cry from the rate of change back in prehistoric times.

    i really don't get it.

    if you say we have no control over the direction of our evolution, your saying we have no control over our environment (all of the circumstances in which we live).

    are you alluding to fate? that all choice is an illusion? the entire universe, including you and i, are just playing out some mechanical chain reaction? but if that were true luck wouldn't enter into your arguement :?
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    The Schwarzschild radius is only the event horizon of the black hole. It's actual gravitational influence is much farther than that. In fact, it's exactly the same as the gravitational field of the matter it's composed of. The fact that it's a black hole only matters when you get very close to it. BTW, the gravitational field of 200,000,000 protons worth of matter is pretty much 0. It exists, but it's just too weak to matter. I don't have time to do the math right now, but if someone wants to, it'd be instructive to see the difference between the gravitational pull and the electromagnetic push in this scenario.
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  92. #91  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    wow a scientist who believes in hell. now ive seen everything :wink:


    I think it is wisest to focus on the ISSUE, the SUBJECT.........not necessarily the "person"
    well, i agree with that

    although, there are two different kinds of scientists, those who crave knowledge, and those who crave understanding.

    sometimes, in order to gain understanding, not just knowledge, you need to know a little about how someone thinks. in other words, why they think what they do.

    it allows you to read more between the lines.

    as long as you keep your emotions/preconceptions under control, you can actually gain a less biased version of the concept the author is trying to explain (because, by accepting the possibility that they may be right (read:regarding them), you quiet your own preconceptions enough to be relatively unbiased.

    essentially, you have to focus mostly on the subject. but you cant ignore the source. because if the communication of the subject is not sufficient, you might end up disagreeing with your own mis-interpretation.


    oh.. and

    Has anyone heard of an animal going to hell?
    nope, but i'm not sure who to ask.

    for the sake of understanding, i think 'good and bad' a necessary social constructs of the human mind. and 'life and death' are necessary consequences of time. what happens if you take time out of the equation, through not perceiving it, i can honestly say, i don't know, and i don't know how anyone else would either.

    Sorry, I forgot to explain what hell is.

    Hell is a PLACE, it's not a state of mind.

    It's a space you can't escape.

    The mind is freedom.

    The only way out of hell is accepting your devil, YOU and YOUR JUDGMENETS ON OTHERS, and not being a wise monkey turning a blind eye to the whole thing, wishing it away.......LIKE REALLY USING YOUR MIND TO THINK OF SOMETHING new, like when in hell use your mind, try a new tactic, because everything previously you did obviously didn't work.

    Animals always think, always using their minds.........thinking of something NEW. If they get bored, they are not an animal. Even when they are resting they are thinking of what might be after it.

    Our aim is to be "loving animals"........especially on the cutting edge. "Love", basically, sets us apart from what we understand is "animal".

    This HADRON thing is a SWORD, but do you think any of them are doing what they do for a great "good"? Has that been detailed? They are scientists. They will not find a "god particle" if they don't know what the idea of a human touchstone is.
    Erm... a couple of things (ive highlighted them in bold).........firstly you say that you cant escape hell then you say you can. Any chance of making up your mind on that one?

    Secondly please dont get HADRON confused with HARDON.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    The HADRON is in fact some type of major scientific wank, though, with the explosions to boot.

    (LOL)

    No, good luck to them. The life of a scientist needs this great "wow" event.


    As for hell, lets hope they don't create one. We're all sure they know what they are doing.
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