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Thread: Absence of time

  1. #1 Absence of time 
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    Hello, this will be my first post here, and i have registered strictly for this question because it's bugging me and i can't think of an answer and i'm hoping you guys could give me an answer.
    I can't imagine what would happen if something was moved in the absence of time.


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    Are you thinking about roaming black holes by chance?


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    I am not sure what you mean by roaming black holes, forgot to mention that i don't have too much knowledge in the field, i'm just a curious guy ^^. But if you meant regarding black holes centers as singularities then i guess it could be a good illustration for what i asked. However what brought on this question was me trying to imagine an absolute world. But i feel we would deviate if we focus on that, because most of my ideas could be regarded as pseudo-science.
    Last edited by ZaBici; July 4th, 2014 at 09:36 AM.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    There was no time until humans invented it. The cave man never knew what time actually was. they went to sleep when they were tired and awoke when a saber tooth tiger attacked them.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
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    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was no time until humans invented it. The cave man never knew what time actually was. they went to sleep when they were tired and awoke when a saber tooth tiger attacked them.
    I hope this is a joke... Time is a fundamental part of the universe, ever heard of space-time? Time is definitely not a human invention...
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    If time is absent nothing can move.
    For something to move it has to be here-NOW and there-THEN.
    Removing time removes THEN - it's "forever" NOW.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    Hello, this will be my first post here, and i have registered strictly for this question because it's bugging me and i can't think of an answer and i'm hoping you guys could give me an answer.
    I can't imagine what would happen if something was moved in the absence of time.
    Hi ZaBici. By it's definition if something was moved in the absence of time the spatial displacement would have to be instantaneous. Fortunately in our classical world, the temporal dimension gives a basis to measure spatial change as a duration event which therefore allows for the notion of cause and effect and the notion of the ordering of events. Time is a necessary pre-requisite for our classical reality but whether it is truly fundamental or not is a current hotly debated topic on forums such as this. The notion of a timeless universe from which a classical universe emerged (geometrogenesis) is a popular topic for relativists and in particular physicists such as Victor Stenger, Julian Barbour, Leonard Susskind and Lee Smolin and the late John Wheeler but these ideas are still speculative.

    Time in itself is poorly understood evidenced by the endless discussions concerning it and the numerous different takes but it's invariance is an essential ingredient for a classical universe and a necessary pre-requisite for our physical laws and the conservation of energy via Noethers theorem.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    I'm just saying that the cave man didn't know that there was a thing as "time".
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    Irrelevant, it was still there...
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    @Implicate Order
    I intentionally left out the definition of time as a distance traveled in space hoping i could get an "overview" answer. And i have indeed used our universe minus time as an example in order to imagine an absolute one and it's when i got stuck to the current question. I guess it can't be done so easily and i have to start from "scratch", but beside some closure that i'm not alone in this you have given me a lot of material to get into, so thanks for that. I couldn't find anything on the matter.
    Googled geometrogenesis as a starting point but it looks rather heavy, this will take some time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    @Implicate Order
    I intentionally left out the definition of time as a distance traveled in space hoping i could get an "overview" answer. And i have indeed used our universe minus time as an example in order to imagine an absolute one and it's when i got stuck to the current question. I guess it can't be done so easily and i have to start from "scratch", but beside some closure that i'm not alone in this you have given me a lot of material to get into, so thanks for that. I couldn't find anything on the matter.
    Googled geometrogenesis as a starting point but it looks rather heavy, this will take some time.


    Without all of the dimensions of our universe, this universe would not exist. You cannot exist in 2d or 3d, you need to have space and time for chemistry, the laws of physics, and for biology to exists. Therefore they are all essential parts of the universe and are not just man made. Time would have still been an essential part of the universe as would have space if we didn't exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    @Implicate Order
    I intentionally left out the definition of time as a distance traveled in space hoping i could get an "overview" answer. And i have indeed used our universe minus time as an example in order to imagine an absolute one and it's when i got stuck to the current question. I guess it can't be done so easily and i have to start from "scratch", but beside some closure that i'm not alone in this you have given me a lot of material to get into, so thanks for that. I couldn't find anything on the matter.
    Googled geometrogenesis as a starting point but it looks rather heavy, this will take some time.
    If you like a good read then I would suggest "Time Reborn" by Lee Smolin. While you may disagree with his conclusions regarding it's fundamental nature he does a great job in well over half the book of impartially explaining the significance of a timeless universe and it's timeless laws to Newtonian Physics, Relativity and Thermodynamics and also goes to great pains to explain different positions held by theoretical physics today. It is only in the latter part of the book that he raises his concerns with the contemporary viewpoint in his take on geometrogenesis. No matter which side you lean towards, it is a good read.

    Unfortunately navigating through the web for relevant information rarely gives a suitable context from which to appreciate the diverse viewpoints......it's a minefield out there in cyberspace :-))
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Irrelevant, it was still there...

    Quite so but they, cavemen, didn't realize what it. That was all I was trying to get across.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Irrelevant, it was still there...

    Quite so but they, cavemen, didn't realize what it. That was all I was trying to get across.

    I would think, in the most simplistic way, they, as the ants in the front yard understand time. Each knows the day will come to an end, and the seasons will pass. The ancients, at an early stage in their social development showed their understanding, by the monuments made to the celestial bodies and their motions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was no time until humans invented it. The cave man never knew what time actually was. they went to sleep when they were tired and awoke when a saber tooth tiger attacked them.
    I hope this is a joke... Time is a fundamental part of the universe, ever heard of space-time? Time is definitely not a human invention...
    Maybe he meant refined/understood?
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
    President Dwight Eisenhower
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was no time until humans invented it. The cave man never knew what time actually was. they went to sleep when they were tired and awoke when a saber tooth tiger attacked them.
    I hope this is a joke... Time is a fundamental part of the universe, ever heard of space-time? Time is definitely not a human invention...
    Maybe he meant refined/understood?
    I would not be one bit surprised to learn that plants understand time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    I would not be one bit surprised to learn that plants understand time.
    Exactly!
    How do potatoes know how they're cooked after 20 minutes if they can't tell time?
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    @AndresKiani Don't know what brought that on, as i said i simply used our universe as an example, i needed a starting point, i was trying to figure out a relation of time between our and an absolute universe, and perhaps to better understand time. I was not contesting that time exists.

    @Implicate Order Whenever i will be able, i will definitely give it a chance, seems like a good introduction.
    About the second point, it's more like i get lost on terminology rather than not being able to discern. Welp where there is a will there is a way. Thank you again, you've been a great help ^^.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    i was trying to figure out a relation of time between our and an absolute universe, and perhaps to better understand time.
    A) What's an "absolute universe"?
    B) How does inventing fictional things help you understand reality?
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  21. #20  
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    @Dywyddyr

    1. I can't put my finger on it. With the risk of being redundant, an universe governed by the absolute, the same way ours is governed by relativity/infinity. Being that it's just a theory i'm exploring i can't provide facts nor do i think it's possible in the near future.
    2. Getting a bit stingy there chap? Science as you know it is fictional until proven correct beyond all reasonable doubt, it can even be regarded as a religion considering the faith you put in it. But i'm not here to discuss semantics, nor do i need to debate my theory just yet, reason why i simply asked for opinions on that question and that question alone unless of course related. Is your second point related?
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    With the risk of being redundant, an universe governed by the absolute, the same way ours is governed by relativity/infinity.
    In other words a non-scientific "universe".
    One with zero evidence for it.

    Being that it's just a theory i'm exploring
    It's not a theory, it's unsupported speculation.

    Science as you know it is fictional
    Wrong.
    Science is explanations (that WORK) for observed phenomena.
    Nothing fictional about that.

    until proven correct beyond all reasonable doubt
    Uh what? Science doesn't do "proof".
    You can't claim "proved" and then add "beyond reasonable doubt".

    it can even be regarded as a religion considering the faith you put in it.
    What utter nonsense.
    Zero "faith" required: science works.

    But i'm not here to discuss semantics
    Right, just fictional universes...

    nor do i need to debate my theory just yet
    Oh, you don't need to "debate" or discuss" your (non-) theory about an unscientific universe and how it compares to the real one?
    In other words... waste of time.

    Is your second point related?
    Of course it's related: what makes you think making stuff up 1 helps to understand real stuff?

    1 Especially stuff that you can't be bothered to explain until later (when specifically asked) and then claim you're not here to talk about.
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    Buahahah, look at you going! Splitting that post and preaching :3. Hey when was the last time you had a coherent thought that didn't involve relying on others ideas from start to finish? ^^
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    Oh look you've gone from posting nonsense to trolling. Typical crank behaviour
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    Buahahah, look at you going! Splitting that post and preaching :3. Hey when was the last time you had a coherent thought that didn't involve relying on others ideas from start to finish? ^^
    1) I "split" the post to make the replies concise.
    2) Please point out the "preaching". You won't be able to.
    3) Since this is a thread YOU started (nearly) about YOUR concept then what do MY coherent thoughts on MY ideas have to do with anything? (Unless you want me to hijack the thread of course).
    4) Am I to assume that you don't have ANY valid rebuttals to my post and thus decided to resort to personal attacks and irrelevant and incorrect trivia.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaBici View Post
    @AndresKiani Don't know what brought that on, as i said i simply used our universe as an example, i needed a starting point, i was trying to figure out a relation of time between our and an absolute universe, and perhaps to better understand time. I was not contesting that time exists.

    @Implicate Order Whenever i will be able, i will definitely give it a chance, seems like a good introduction.
    About the second point, it's more like i get lost on terminology rather than not being able to discern. Welp where there is a will there is a way. Thank you again, you've been a great help ^^.
    Oh ok.
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