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Thread: Position in the universe?

  1. #1 Position in the universe? 
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    Is there any unit for saying that x is a certain spot on the universe?

    How would you say the exact position for lets say on a rock on some planet.


    Is it displacement proportional to another object? Is that object earth?


    How can we make a unit that if I say x is here if I check 1 billion years later x will still be here, if that unit exist again please alert me of that.

    Sorry if this is a stupid question and ends up to be something very obvious.


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    We don't even know where Earth is in the universe.

    Outside our solar system and galaxy.


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    There is no absolute coordinate system. Everything is relative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    We don't even know where Earth is in the universe.

    Outside our solar system and galaxy.
    That leads to the second question

    How can we make a unit that if I say x is here if I check 1 billion years later x will still be here, if that unit exist again please alert me of that.






    We can for sure tell the exact position of for example the moon from the earth but that is all relative.

    Perhaps this unit would be a unit of relatives referencing to 0,0,0 which could be given a variable of E for example.


    So you could say this object is (+7648234560m,-44894438602m,+4969544941819002m)in reference to E
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    There is no absolute coordinate system. Everything is relative.
    Just now seeing this after my post, is a standard center for the relativity? For example the sun or earth
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    If everything is moving "x" will not be still there after one minute.

    We can't tell the center of the galaxy or where the Big Bang started.

    :EDIT:

    We could tell relative to Earth, the center of the galaxy, but we have no idea how fast the galaxy is "flying" through space and on a collision course with Andromeda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    If everything is moving "x" will not be still there after one minute.

    We can't tell the center of the galaxy or where the Big Bang started.

    :EDIT:

    We could tell relative to Earth, the center of the galaxy, but we have no idea how fast the galaxy is "flying" through space and on a collision course with Andromeda.
    Well if we knew how to predict how matter matter moves towards and expands from each other into a universal formula.

    We could then make a super position formula which would be the expansion of the universe formula relative to the earth relative to the object or position you are defining.
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  9. #8  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    There is no fixed, absolute position. Everything moves and every position is relative to something else.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    There is no fixed, absolute position. Everything moves and every position is relative to something else.
    Thanks for the confirmation, take a look at my most recent post on this thread I think it has some real potential to create a super positioning system
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    I am the center of the universe.

    I know this cause everything revolves around me.
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    I would almost believe that the galaxy revolves around you, however, being the everything in the universe is moving away from everything else....I refuse to accept that you are universally repulsive. τΏτ
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    It's the dark energy I have.

    It has that effect on people.
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    Please contribute useful information this is a legitimate question.
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    Do you have an equation for a "super positioning system"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Do you have an equation for a "super positioning system"?

    I have proposed an idea for one if you would read the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    There is no fixed, absolute position. Everything moves and every position is relative to something else.
    Thanks for the confirmation, take a look at my most recent post on this thread I think it has some real potential to create a super positioning system
    No, it doesn't
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    There is no fixed, absolute position. Everything moves and every position is relative to something else.
    Thanks for the confirmation, take a look at my most recent post on this thread I think it has some real potential to create a super positioning system
    No, it doesn't
    In which ways would it be invalid?

    Thanks for the critique
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Well if we knew how to predict how matter matter moves towards and expands from each other into a universal formula.
    Huh?
    What's wrong with current equations of motion?

    We could then make a super position formula which would be the expansion of the universe formula relative to the earth relative to the object or position you are defining.
    Why do you think this?
    How would it differ from what we do now - which has already been noted as "relative to where Earth is"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation, take a look at my most recent post on this thread I think it has some real potential to create a super positioning system
    Why do you think so?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Has science speculated, from the map of the universe, where the BB originated from? If a positioning system where to ever be conceivable, I would ASSume that would probably the easiest first step. Is there any speculation, theory, or assertion to that end?
    To consider a stationary point of reference, from what has been slapped into me from the great minds I have encountered in this forum, is many years away, if ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    Has science speculated, from the map of the universe, where the BB originated from?
    Your question seems to presume that the BB happened at a single location. But you must remember that it was the whole universe (which was just a lot smaller then than it is today), that grew into the larger universe we inhabit today. So, rather than being an explosion (an unfortunate picture that too many pop-sci articles convey) from a point into a pre-existing volume of space, the BB was an expansion of the whole universe, including space. So any location is as good as any other location as a reference, and everything is moving away from each other (on cosmological scales; I'm not talking about local motion). Think about raisins in raisin bread. The whole loaf expands; each raisin sees all the other raisins moving away. Any one of them may be treated arbitrarily as the reference raisin.

    Now I'm hungry.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    Has science speculated, from the map of the universe, where the BB originated from?
    Your question seems to presume that the BB happened at a single location. But you must remember that it was the whole universe (which was just a lot smaller then than it is today), that grew into the larger universe we inhabit today. So, rather than being an explosion (an unfortunate picture that too many pop-sci articles convey) from a point into a pre-existing volume of space, the BB was an expansion of the whole universe, including space. So any location is as good as any other location as a reference, and everything is moving away from each other (on cosmological scales; I'm not talking about local motion). Think about raisins in raisin bread. The whole loaf expands; each raisin sees all the other raisins moving away. Any one of them may be treated arbitrarily as the reference raisin.

    Now I'm hungry.


    I know what you are saying, but the small mind I hold up can reference the puddle of batter from the final loaf. I don't think we will ever be able to. With the big pic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Well if we knew how to predict how matter matter moves towards and expands from each other into a universal formula.
    Huh?
    What's wrong with current equations of motion?

    We could then make a super position formula which would be the expansion of the universe formula relative to the earth relative to the object or position you are defining.
    Why do you think this?
    How would it differ from what we do now - which has already been noted as "relative to where Earth is"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation, take a look at my most recent post on this thread I think it has some real potential to create a super positioning system
    Why do you think so?
    Because this formula accounts for the expansion of the universe which normal relative distance formulas just tell the current position.

    This formula would tell the position in reference forever.

    Because lets say we give a random rock on some planet relative to earth X

    1 billion years from now "X" won't be where that rock is due to expansion of the universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    Has science speculated, from the map of the universe, where the BB originated from? If a positioning system where to ever be conceivable, I would ASSume that would probably the easiest first step. Is there any speculation, theory, or assertion to that end?
    To consider a stationary point of reference, from what has been slapped into me from the great minds I have encountered in this forum, is many years away, if ever.


    We don't need to know where the BB originated if we know how the matter from the BB is expanding. Although that would lead to knowing the origin of the BB.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Because this formula accounts for the expansion of the universe which normal relative distance formulas just tell the current position.
    This formula would tell the position in reference forever.
    How?
    Just making empty claims isn't good enough.

    Because lets say we give a random rock on some planet relative to earth X
    1 billion years from now "X" won't be where that rock is due to expansion of the universe.
    Why not?

    Although that would lead to knowing the origin of the BB.
    No it won't.
    Which part of TK421's post did you not understand?
    Everything is moving away from everything else.
    There is no way to ascertain the "origin" of the BB from the expansion.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    Has science speculated, from the map of the universe, where the BB originated from?
    Your question seems to presume that the BB happened at a single location. But you must remember that it was the whole universe (which was just a lot smaller then than it is today), that grew into the larger universe we inhabit today. So, rather than being an explosion (an unfortunate picture that too many pop-sci articles convey) from a point into a pre-existing volume of space, the BB was an expansion of the whole universe, including space. So any location is as good as any other location as a reference, and everything is moving away from each other (on cosmological scales; I'm not talking about local motion). Think about raisins in raisin bread. The whole loaf expands; each raisin sees all the other raisins moving away. Any one of them may be treated arbitrarily as the reference raisin.

    Now I'm hungry.

    The obvious question that pops into my mind after reading your helpful analogy, is what the Universe is expanding into.
    Nonetheless, I presume that this depends on whether or not the Universe has a boundary. Am I correct?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Stephen Hawking and the No Boundary Proposal

    Sorry, some people don't appreciate my posts.

    Or, in short: nobody knows.
    Last edited by Beer w/Straw; June 19th, 2014 at 08:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    I know what you are saying, but the small mind I hold up can reference the puddle of batter from the final loaf. I don't think we will ever be able to. With the big pic.
    Well, the problem that you are having is what most have. You imagine, quite reasonably (but wrongly) a raisin loaf in a kitchen. But in this analogy, there is only the loaf. The loaf is the universe, so by definition, there is nothing else. So you have to bend your thinking a bit to elminate everything in your kitchen -- including the kitchen -- except the loaf.

    Yes, it's hard. And analogies are always imperfect. But unless you are ready to handle the maths, that's the best I can offer.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    The obvious question that pops into my mind after reading your helpful analogy, is what the Universe is expanding into.
    Wonderful question, and you're not going to like the answer, I imagine: There is nothing to expand into. The universe is all there is; there's no volume into which it expands.

    So what is the way to think about it? Pop-sci articles will say things like "space itself expands." That helps some people, and confuses others. The maths say, essentially and simply, that the distance between things increases over time. Do with those words as you will.

    Nonetheless, I presume that this depends on whether or not the Universe has a boundary. Am I correct?
    Not quite; the question of the overall geometry of the universe is a separate one.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    Has science speculated, from the map of the universe, where the BB originated from? If a positioning system where to ever be conceivable, I would ASSume that would probably the easiest first step. Is there any speculation, theory, or assertion to that end?
    To consider a stationary point of reference, from what has been slapped into me from the great minds I have encountered in this forum, is many years away, if ever.

    We don't need to know where the BB originated if we know how the matter from the BB is expanding. Although that would lead to knowing the origin of the BB.
    The universe inflated to its current state, there is no spatial origin except - the whole universe!

    We cannot see the whole universe, nor can we travel to it, and what we do see is time distorted by distance. This makes mapping it kind of like snorkeling in the middle of the ocean and mapping fish positions.

    Even the math for the expansion is uncertain until we have comparable measurements at multiple points in time. If the universe is 12 billion years old, we can check again in 1.2 billion years and get a reasonably accurate rate of change.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    The obvious question that pops into my mind after reading your helpful analogy, is what the Universe is expanding into.
    Wonderful question, and you're not going to like the answer, I imagine: There is nothing to expand into. The universe is all there is; there's no volume into which it expands.

    So what is the way to think about it? Pop-sci articles will say things like "space itself expands." That helps some people, and confuses others. The maths say, essentially and simply, that the distance between things increases over time. Do with those words as you will.

    Thank you for the answer. It is indeed a bit difficult to imagine that there is nothing to expand into and I suppose that mathematics is more useful than an illustration. I am currently trying to grasp the basics of GR (as the finals are over), so that my reliance on pop-sci articles will be minimized and my understanding of the underlining mathematics is enough to follow discussions and to fully comprehend the answers concerning these topics.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    So what is the way to think about it? Pop-sci articles will say things like "space itself expands." That helps some people, and confuses others. The maths say, essentially and simply, that the distance between things increases over time. Do with those words as you will.
    The idea that "the universe is getting better" (as implied by "expansion") is very misleading. Distances increasing is better. I think "the density is decreasing" is also a helpful model (for some).
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post

    Outside our solar system and galaxy.
    Excuse me?
    “It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.” Charles Darwin
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    I agree. My post should have been all one sentence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Is there any unit for saying that x is a certain spot on the universe?

    How would you say the exact position for lets say on a rock on some planet.


    Is it displacement proportional to another object? Is that object earth?


    How can we make a unit that if I say x is here if I check 1 billion years later x will still be here, if that unit exist again please alert me of that.

    Sorry if this is a stupid question and ends up to be something very obvious.
    Select one object from the universe as a reference point. Locate the next nearest object relative to the first. Sequentially locate the remaining objects relative to the first. You now have a universal reference for all objects except the first. With what reference point do you locate the first object?
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    Only when the forces of gravity intervene, is found a exception.. Other wise we have a accelerating expansion of the component space of the Universe..
    You might imagine some construct of a 3 D gride and locate every object.. A useless exercise as we find no object without relative motion.. You can not map a Finite and Unbound space with accuracy.. Read and re read what 'Beer with Straw' has been telling you.
    Nothing is found to be stationary. No center is found and no edge known.
    ~ My own personal view has not been proven as wrong.. The position of planet Earth in the whole of the Universe is known..
    It's right ' HERE.' Co ordinate d position is 0, 00. and in motion. According to me, and in reference to me. I know where I am.. I'm here.
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