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Thread: The Higgs Boson

  1. #1 The Higgs Boson 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    The Higgs boson.

    Fact or fiction ?


    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Neither.


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    possible to exist unkown if it does or not
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    Fiction Leo.

    Total and utter fudge perpetuated by people who don't actually grasp energy, mass, action, momentum, and inertia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Fiction Leo.

    Total and utter fudge perpetuated by people who don't actually grasp energy, mass, action, momentum, and inertia.
    yeah sure like you understand it when scientists have been working on it for 300 years and has come no closer to the answer. its just you who are the right person to understand things. do you really know what the higgsboson does or is ment to do if it does exist?


    there is a experimental evidence that point towards its existens thou
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    We had a teacher once called Higgs, we thought of him as a 'Boso' so on those grounds it might have existed once but....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    We had a teacher once called Higgs, we thought of him as a 'Boso' so on those grounds it might have existed once but....
    as for now the real higgs boson has a observation pointing towards its existens. that is the MBR
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    Yeah sure like you understand it when scientists have been working on it for 300 years and has come no closer to the answer.
    Oh I do. But what do you know, you won't even read MASS EXPLAINED. And duh, you then say you don't have to read it, or understand it, or keep an open mind, because it must be wrong because others have gotten nowhere for so long. Jeez, go hop in your crackpot Time Machine and get back to your medieval church.

    It's just you who are the right person to understand things. Do you really know what the Higgs Boson does or is meant to do if it does exist? There is experimental evidence that points towards its existence though.
    It's not only me. And I do understand the Higgs Boson concept, really. That's why I know it's a cop-out. Here, suck on this hunt-the-snark nonsense:

    How Particles Acquire Mass by Mary and Ian Butterworth, Imperial College London, and Doris and Vigdor Teplitz, Southern Methodist University, Dallas, Texas, USA.

    The Higgs boson is a hypothesised particle which, if it exists, would give the mechanism by which particles acquire mass.

    Matter is made of molecules; molecules of atoms; atoms of a cloud of electrons about one-hundred-millionth of a centimetre and a nucleus about one-hundred-thousandth the size of the electron cloud. The nucleus is made of protons and neutrons. Each proton (or neutron) has about two thousand times the mass of an electron. We know a good deal about why the nucleus is so small. We do not know, however, how the particles get their masses. Why are the masses what they are? Why are the ratios of masses what they are? We can't be said to understand the constituents of matter if we don't have a satisfactory answer to this question.

    Peter Higgs has a model in which particle masses arise in a beautiful, but complex, progression. He starts with a particle that has only mass, and no other characteristics, such as charge, that distinguish particles from empty space. We can call his particle H. H interacts with other particles; for example if H is near an electron, there is a force between the two. H is of a class of particles called "bosons". We first attempt a more precise, but non-mathematical statement of the point of the model; then we give explanatory pictures.

    In the mathematics of quantum mechanics describing creation and annihilation of elementary particles, as observed at accelerators, particles at particular points arise from "fields" spread over space and time. Higgs found that parameters in the equations for the field associated with the particle H can be chosen in such a way that the lowest energy state of that field (empty space) is one with the field not zero. It is surprising that the field is not zero in empty space, but the result, not an obvious one, is: all particles that can interact with H gain mass from the interaction.

    Thus mathematics links the existence of H to a contribution to the mass of all particles with which H interacts. A picture that corresponds to the mathematics is of the lowest energy state, "empty" space, having a crown of H particles with no energy of their own. Other particles get their masses by interacting with this collection of zero-energy H particles. The mass (or inertia or resistance to change in motion) of a particle comes from its being "grabbed at" by Higgs particles when we try and move it.

    If particles no get their masses from interacting with the empty space Higgs field, then the Higgs particle must exist; but we can't be certain without finding the Higgs. We have other hints about the Higgs; for example, if it exists, it plays a role in "unifying" different forces. However, we believe that nature could contrive to get the results that would flow from the Higgs in other ways. In fact, proving the Higgs particle does not exist would be scientifically every bit as valuable as proving it does.

    These questions, the mechanisms by which particles get their masses, and the relationship amongs different forces of nature, are major ones and so basic to having an understanding of the constituents of matter and the forces among them, that it is hard to see how we can make significant progress in our understanding of the stuff of which the earth is made without answering them.
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    Oh I do. But what do you know, you won't even read MASS EXPLAINED. And duh, you then say you don't have to read it, or understand it, or keep an open mind, because it must be wrong because others have gotten nowhere for so long. Jeez, go hop in your crackpot Time Machine and get back to your medieval church.
    if you truly understand mass then im the reincarnation of einstein

    tell me then how can your theory be proven and does it have any support as in evidence?
    higgs got atleast one thing pointing toward it.

    as for the rest i´ll read it when i have more time
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    Proven? Theory? It's just an essay. Read it. Make the time. Read about pair production, Compton scattering, annihilation. It's all so simple and obvious once you get a proper grasp of energy, momentum, action, inertia, and mass. So please don't talk to me about supporting evidence in the same breath as your Higgs Boson. Zealot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Proven? Theory? It's just an essay. Read it. Make the time. Read about pair production, Compton scattering, annihilation. It's all so simple and obvious once you get a proper grasp of energy, momentum, action, inertia, and mass. So please don't talk to me about supporting evidence in the same breath as your Higgs Boson. Zealot.
    its not my hiss boson i remain neutral towards its existens and state only that for now it got something that point toward its own existens, give me a link to your essay
    and since its such a good mass explainer why not send it to a physics paper and let them publish it, if it as good as you claim youre sure to get in. if you dont send it its most likly cause you know its not based on scientific things.

    what i want is data, math, observation and such, for things that is unfounded and only theoretical i say theoretical to point out its not proven yet or anything and i remain neutral to such. what i do dislike is KNS people
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  13. #12 Well. 
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    Well. The Higgs boson MUST exist. Its caused a MASSive argument.

    I have read MASS EXPLAINED and whilst it is a damn good theory as to how electrons could acquire mass, it explains nothing about how quarks could acquire mass. Perhaps the leptons and quarks acquire masses differently. Perhpas not. There is one thing for certain, it is my belief that farsight's essay could do with a little "tuning" but I see no reason why it should not end up in a scientific journal as long as he can develop the mathematical model to run along side it.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    same propety should logicly be aquired the same way
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    ..since its such a good mass explainer why not send it to a physics paper and let them publish it, if it as good as you claim youre sure to get in. if you dont send it its most likly cause you know its not based on scientific things.
    This is the proving ground. I will be seeking some form of publication, maybe in partnership with somebody else. But not with a single essay in isolation. There's a set of them, each follows on from the other, so far covering time, money, energy and mass:

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...t=4934&start=0
    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...t=4750&start=0
    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...t=4740&start=0
    http://www.thescienceforum.com/MASS-EXPLAINED-5069t.php

    There's more to follow, the set is not yet complete.

    And I take real exception to your suggestion that these essays are not based on scientific things. I take pride in my adherence to the principles of science.
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    Farsight,

    Have you thought of joining mensa?
    Such articles are welcomed, and viewed by scientists - if seeing merit in your work I'm sure they would help you further.
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    ive looked throu all of them now very rapidly, i´ll take a better look once i get home, but as i see there is no math. no mathematical explination. If you even think of publishing this on a physic paper for god sake have math in. If you send this idea/theory/whatever in without math they will most likly reply something like "Nice/awefull idea, but its only a idea and you got no mathematical support for your idea and therefor we cant publish it even if we so wanted"
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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    Yes, Maths is a good indicator that you have thought it through, remember that such journals recieve hundreds if not thousands of 'papers' monthly - it costs real money to sort through them.

    The likely scenario is this - All papers are collected and piled - after a month or two when they start to 'get in the way' they may be viewed.

    Here's the flow chart:
    1.0) Does the paper have a 'one line intro?' - no - binnit - yes ->2
    2.0) Does the paper have a 1 para summary after the 1liner? -No-binnit
    3.0) Is the paper from a scientist/phd/ceng etc - Yes - goto step 5
    4.0) Does the paper( summary) deviate from mainstream science? - yes - binnit
    5.0) Does the paper contradict Maxwell, Planck, Einstein - yes - binnit.
    6.0) Do I have the inclination to wade through it - no - binnit
    7.0) Place it in the canteen for review.

    That really is how it goes.
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    sounds pretty much like it
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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    My apologies for the omission of the final step.

    Can I steal this, and win a nobel prize? - no - binnit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Farsight: Have you thought of joining mensa?
    Such articles are welcomed, and viewed by scientists - if seeing merit in your work I'm sure they would help you further.
    Oh Megabrain, I'm far too smart for Mensa! :-D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    ive looked throu all of them now very rapidly, i´ll take a better look once i get home, but as i see there is no math. no mathematical explination. If you even think of publishing this on a physic paper for god sake have math in. If you send this idea/theory/whatever in without math they will most likly reply something like "Nice/awefull idea, but its only a idea and you got no mathematical support for your idea and therefor we cant publish it even if we so wanted"
    They're essays, not papers. My aim is to be layman-friendly and offer grasp. Maths can't do that. Maths can't explain. If I do put in some maths sometime, it'll be in an appendix or some form that doesn't interfere with the flow and explanation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    My apologies for the omission of the final step.

    Can I steal this, and win a nobel prize? - no - binnit.
    Don't do that Megabrain, please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Farsight: Have you thought of joining mensa?
    Such articles are welcomed, and viewed by scientists - if seeing merit in your work I'm sure they would help you further.
    Oh Megabrain, I'm far too smart for Mensa! :-D
    proof enough thats not the case

    They're essays, not papers. My aim is to be layman-friendly and offer grasp. Maths can't do that. Maths can't explain. If I do put in some maths sometime, it'll be in an appendix or some form that doesn't interfere with the flow and explanation.
    that means you got no grasp about anything, no math no explination just a fancy idea. it got no relevans no predictions nothing. Please next time you want me to waste time reading one of your ideas that is so "grande" add some math that give it some value.

    Don't do that Megabrain, please.
    yeah mega dont you´ll only humiliate yourself

    btw isnt 3 posts in a row like that against the rule?
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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    Three posts in a row - yes it is dicouraged - PM a mod if you are unhappy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    that means you got no grasp about anything, no math no explination just a fancy idea. it got no relevans no predictions nothing. Please next time you want me to waste time reading one of your ideas that is so "grande" add some math that give it some value.
    No it doesn't mean I've got no grasp. I've more grasp than an octopus. And what do you mean no explanation? These essays are pure explanation. That's why they aren't laden with maths. Because maths isn't explanation. Explanation is explanation. Words. With pictures. And too bad if you don't like ideas, but this is just a physics forum, not MIT or Harvard. If you don't want to read the essays that's up to you. But don't then start trying to justify your choice by rubbishing something you haven't even read, and probably wouldn't understand if you did. And then don't start spouting nonsense about the fabulous legendary Higgs Boson which you don't understand either.
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  27. #26  
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    [quote="Farsight
    I've more grasp than an octopus.
    [/quote]

    Aren't Octopii the sea creatures that muddy the waters and high-tail it at the first sign of danger?
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    No it doesn't mean I've got no grasp. I've more grasp than an octopus
    prove it, give us detailed calculations from formulas wich you derivate, what is your postulates etc.

    And what do you mean no explanation? These essays are pure explanation. That's why they aren't laden with maths. Because maths isn't explanation
    thats where youre wrong
    math explain everything perfectly. If your idea dont have formulas, postulates of somekind wich you derivate all your formulas from you dont have a theory just a idea wich in physic community is invalid. math is a MUST.

    Explanation is explanation
    yeah, give us the math

    Words. With pictures. And too bad if you don't like ideas, but this is just a physics forum, not MIT or Harvard
    nope so dont come and claim you got any idea what youre talking about until you got math to support it. atleast tolkas and martillo gave some math, flawned but atleast math. id say on the madness scale youre above them where they set the top of how mad you can be in science.

    If you don't want to read the essays that's up to you. But don't then start trying to justify your choice by rubbishing something you haven't even read, and probably wouldn't understand if you did
    i have read it
    but until i see somekinda math supporting it youre not getting anything more than "hmmm, nice idea" or "oh god how silly can you be?", if you want "that seems possible" give me some math

    And then don't start spouting nonsense about the fabulous legendary Higgs Boson which you don't understand either
    like you do hahahaha
    i dont understand the higgs boson thats why i remain neutral towards its existens, i dont claim it exist or not just saying that it got support for its possible existens
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Gentlemen,

    You are drifting off topic - all this does is let others leave you too it - now back on topic, continue your private 'chit-chat' by PM. THis is higgs boson fact or fiction, so lets have some links that point to the arguments for and against otherwise I'll send you both to the sin bin for a timeout. :wink:
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    i accept your challange mega
    i´ll see you at dawn, i´ll bring the pistols put on the cloth you want when burried.

    the higgs field/particle idea do predict a huge repulsive force as the universe is young wich the microwavebackground radiation have shown is what have happened
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  31. #30  
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    Zelos

    I think you ought to visit 'Flame Warriors' in the trash can - take a few minutes out - I'll see you over there.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Zelos

    I think you ought to visit 'Flame Warriors' in the trash can - take a few minutes out - I'll see you over there.
    okey, i´ll bring the guns there
    may god be mercifull upon you since i wont
    (kidding)
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Leo, you might find this an interesting read:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A666173

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1695390.stm

    "But the Cern researchers have told New Scientist magazine that studies in its giant accelerator which should have shown up the presence of the Higgs found absolutely nothing - and this could mean particle physics having to revisit some of its most cherished ideas..."
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