Notices
Results 1 to 38 of 38

Thread: The Speed of light (photons)

  1. #1 The Speed of light (photons) 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    Can someone tell me; when an electron changes orbits and throws off its energy in the form of a photon; this travels at the speed of light which is around 186,000 miles per second, right ?

    What I am wondering is does the photon as soon as it leaves the atom accelerate upto this speed (even if the acceleration is immensly quick) OR does it just "jump" from 0 speed to the speed of light without any acceleration at all ?


    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Guest
    IT is commonly believed instantaneous, ie no acceleration, possibly due to it's 'zero mass'.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    22
    but an electron does have mass, its just extremely little
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27
    But the photon DOESN'T, and it's what is going at the speed of light.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    9
    And if it had any mass, it could not travel at the speed of light. Because, as it approached the speed of light its mass would become infinite. Correct?
    MickeyC
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    264
    right, with mass you can't reach the speed of light because mass becomes infinte.

    How it works is... the electron in the orbital becomes a photon and with the photon's zero-mass it instantly hits the speed of light, WITHOUT ACCELERATION, gets to the next orbital and becomes an electron again.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,893
    Quote Originally Posted by shawngoldw
    right, with mass you can't reach the speed of light because mass becomes infinte.

    How it works is... the electron in the orbital becomes a photon and with the photon's zero-mass it instantly hits the speed of light, WITHOUT ACCELERATION, gets to the next orbital and becomes an electron again.
    No, the electron does not become a photon. It simply emits a photon, and drops to a lower energy level.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8 photon / electron 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    Okay; so the electron throws off the photon and drops to a lower energy level / orbital plane, right ?

    I got that but surely that must mean that in order for the electron to go back on to a higher energy state; it must absorb something, right ?

    I heard somewhere that a photon is actually both an electron AND a positron at the same time. Is this true ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,595
    Quote Originally Posted by cassidym
    And if it had any mass, it could not travel at the speed of light. Because, as it approached the speed of light its mass would become infinite. Correct?
    no one really knows; mass such as a space ship would increase in mass (simular to a BH) but not necessarily in size, as it closed in on C.

    a photon unit is said to be in all waves. the frequency of the waves vary and give value to the visual concept.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10 The Lorenz Contraction 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    Yes, Jackson, you are correct in saying that your size doesnt change; your mass has increased becasue your energy has; and mass and energy and interchangable.

    Although whilst approaching C to an observer your space ship would appear shorter due to the lorenz contraction. Why this happens I have no idea. Possibly it could be due to the pressure of the ether; (if one exists)

    Also, as you approach C and your mass increases, does your gravitational pull increase also ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary
    But the photon DOESN'T, and it's what is going at the speed of light.
    my mistake, i read it wrong, sorry
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Guest
    Those who were seriously debating this topic may now continue, the remaing posts about 'leprachauns' etc has been split as a new topic in the trash can!

    EDIT 6th Jan 07, 13:30 GMT
    It seems I have not made myself clear, I WILL delete any/all further posts to this thread which are not 'serious' contributions to the topic.

    DO not add to this thread any further hairbrained, discredited, or coke-induced 'theories'
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    why is photons listed as a particle in wikipedia?
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Guest
    There is and has been for several hundred years a debate upon whether Photons are particles or waves, I suggest that in view of this, placing it in particles may be reasonable.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    why is photons listed as a particle in wikipedia?
    its just as much a particle as it is a wave. It is our lack in udnerstanding of its true nature that causes the particle/wave duality and by that often requires one model to describe at a certain event.

    The Photon is neither particle or a wave. Its not something between or anything like that. It is just different ways of describing it at different points.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Guest
    Zelos,

    Would you consider that a photon is a wave unitl a measurment is made on it, at which point the very act of measuring it, destroys it and it then becomes a particle?

    Is this not a concept of possibility recognised by Quantum theory?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    no i wouldnt consider it like that. I dont consider a photon as a particle or wave. I consider it as something with certain propeties that behaves in a certain way.

    Is this not a concept of possibility recognised by Quantum theory?
    i think you refer to the thing about the wavefunction that collapses upon measurment and gets a defined point more or less.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    967
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    no i wouldnt consider it like that. I dont consider a photon as a particle or wave. I consider it as something with certain propeties that behaves in a certain way.

    Is this not a concept of possibility recognised by Quantum theory?
    i think you refer to the thing about the wavefunction that collapses upon measurment and gets a defined point more or less.
    I would explain it as lengthcontraction along y,z plane. I think they act like waves, cause the particles are really next to eachother. I've written about y,z contraction. I know you would find me right. After all, compareably, how fast can a x moving particle move along zy? Is it not less then c when x =/= 0, from observer perspective? Wouldn't that solve the whole thing?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    dont know if it cause im tired or just bored or anything but i dont see what it really has to do with what i said
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    967
    Cause then it is a particle and a wave. Wave cause they act as if they are next to eachother. Particle cause everything is.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    they are neither, they arent particles nor waves.

    the reason they cant occupy the same space is cause forces literlly force them to take up seperate spaces, but also cause QM rules forbid same QM number in the same point of space
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LeavingQuietly
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    no i wouldnt consider it like that. I dont consider a photon as a particle or wave. I consider it as something with certain propeties that behaves in a certain way.

    Is this not a concept of possibility recognised by Quantum theory?
    i think you refer to the thing about the wavefunction that collapses upon measurment and gets a defined point more or less.
    I would explain it as lengthcontraction along y,z plane. I think they act like waves, cause the particles are really next to eachother. I've written about y,z contraction. I know you would find me right. After all, compareably, how fast can a x moving particle move along zy? Is it not less then c when x =/= 0, from observer perspective? Wouldn't that solve the whole thing?
    LQ, If you post enough of your theories, do you realise that one day one of them might actually coincide with mainstream science?.

    Could you explain to a complete and utter moron what you mean by 'length contraction' - so far in my life I have only seen one explantion for this, which, I am afraid due to it's graphic nature, I am unable to demonstrate here.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    lenght contraction? whats so hard to understand? distance gets shorter with speed
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Guest
    I was hoping to see if he understood it and could explain it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    967
    x(observer) > x(traveler) since ct(traveler) depends on initial speed to the observer because (ct)^2 - (vt)^2 = (ct)^2. I know, it's wierd and some may even allready know it, but it deserves to be said and I'm sad about that contraction problem you've got there Kidding!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Guest
    No problem, It's a very regular occurence about 4 hours after expansion...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    967
    Just don't let the universe explode first! once again kidding.

    Okay, did I pass the test, or did I stink to much Union Oil?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    x(observer) > x(traveler)
    is true, but so is the very opposite aswell

    Just for the sake of easy equations, lets use units where C = 1 its easier then in SR and GR
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    967
    Why not 2? Then you can go in 1 when you go in half lightspeed, and all photons moves twice as quick! :P
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30 The electro-photon 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    Okay im wondering now; plasma gives off light. so im thinking to myself; maybe when the electrons are full of energy, as they are nearing the speed of light anyway in their orbits; would it be feasable to say that perhaps an electron (which has mass) actually reaches the speed of light when it has enough energy and then collapses in on itself ? (through quantum gravity?) but instead of creating a black hole, it creates a worm-hole to another orbit but before it disappears through this worm-hole and re-appears on another orbital plane it sheds some of its energy, and this energy becomes a photon, which has no mass as the mass has collapsed and travels at the same speed the electron was travelling moments before it collapsed (the speed of light).
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Guest
    You are clearly thinking of electrons as a tiny spherical mass orbiting a nucleus, this was [as far as I know] originally postulated to explain it's behaviour but seems to have cought on. Some modern thinking suggests an 'energy cloud' as opposed to a distinct mass.

    It is a personal belief of mine that electrons, nuetrons and protons are all just alike in that they are each a quanta of energy, though clearly have different 'properties'. Wait and see.

    MOD NOTE: I am considering moving this thread to 'physics' if anybody disagrees please PM me. - Megabrain.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    an energy cloud ?

    of what ? (dont say energy lol)

    i find it hard to fathom; if indeed it is the way that i am picturing it to be; then how can we say that this orbit has 2 electrons, this one has four etc.....unless of course......perhaps this cloud of energy instead of being 2 electrons or 1 electron, perhaps the cloud has a certain strength of charge in that charge level 1 would equate to what used to be called 1 electron then charge level 2 is what used to be called 2 electrons etc.....

    and yeah move it to the physics forum, its more relevant to that now.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    the electron move from one orbit to another by jump since it doesnt have a specefic orbit.
    The more accurate model of the atom dont see orbits like bhor did but rather a cloud with a probability of finding the electron. The electron have certain Quantum Numbers and each number represent a energy value (some QN energy levels are identical) so a so called jump is a change of QN and by that also energy and the clouds shape changes accordingly to the QN.

    Electrons cant excede the speed of light in movement. This is the reason why mercary/quicksilver is liquid instead of solid. This is where the relativistic effects makes a significan differens in the QM world
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34 Mercury.......... 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    Okay, now im intuiged. (This is likely to get moved to another subject) but.what does electron speed have to do with the viscosity of mercury ?

    Also........I wasnt suggesting that the electrons exceeded the speed of light; my point was, if they have mass, then maybe they reach a point of critical mass ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    critical mass of what? critical mass is often refered to the amount of matter required to sustain a nuclear fission reaction
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36 yes....... 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    yes i know, but doesnt critical mass also refer to the point when a stars mass/energy becomes such that it will collapse on its own gravity ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    yes that is it also refered to at sometimes but its not as defined as the nuclear one is
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38 Oh I see 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Dulwich, London, England
    Posts
    1,417
    Oh I see
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

    www.leohopkins.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •