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Thread: supernovas and black holes in 11 dimensions

  1. #1 supernovas and black holes in 11 dimensions 
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    Hi!

    Newbie questions here. String theory claims that we have 11 dimensions. I am not sure what sort of matter extends to these extra-normal dimensions, but assume we have a Supernova. We have a pretty good idea how this travels in dimensions 1-3 (D1-3). How would a Supernova "use" dimensions 5+? Shouldn't we see results (or reflections) of Supernova travelling in D5-11 in our D1-3(4)?

    Same question related to gravity: if anything, shouldn't this travel (reach out) via D5-11? Shouldn't we then experience sudden disapparance or relocation of items, as these might be caught by sudden gravity influencing these from D5-11?

    I hope there is simple answer

    Thanks,
    Kaido


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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    So far as we can tell these "extra dimensions" are wrapped up so small that we can't notice them.
    Ergo they don't have a noticeable impact.
    Why "supernova" as opposed to, say, a tree?
    And how would gravity make something disappear or relocate?


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  4. #3  
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    Well, supernovas should be so powerful that they should squeeze through tiniest dimensions. Plus, it should be visible while they do that, as supernova, is ... quite visible.

    Regarding gravity, it does move galaxies, so why not any other item? Imagine black hole eating up matter through a D5-11, shouldnt this be noticeable to an observer? I somehow feel it should be noticeable.

    k.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    Well, supernovas should be so powerful that they should squeeze through tiniest dimensions.
    This is based on... what?
    How much power is required to "squeeze through dimensions"? (Whatever that means).

    Plus, it should be visible while they do that, as supernova, is ... quite visible.
    Except that it's NOT visible that they do any "squeezing".

    Regarding gravity, it does move galaxies, so why not any other item?
    Have you seen gravity make anything disappear and/ or relocate?

    Imagine black hole eating up matter through a D5-11, shouldnt this be noticeable to an observer?
    Since these dimensions actually constitute reality as it is then how do we distinguish anything being "eaten up" through "D5-11"?

    I somehow feel it should be noticeable.
    Generally scinece isn't based on "feelings".
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    Well, supernovas should be so powerful that they should squeeze through tiniest dimensions.
    This is based on... what?
    How much power is required to "squeeze through dimensions"? (Whatever that means).
    Shouldnt supernova be one of the most powerful events in the universe? If this cannot use the dimension, what can? A quark only?

    Plus, it should be visible while they do that, as supernova, is ... quite visible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Except that it's NOT visible that they do any "squeezing".
    Assume a laser beam is set off at y-axis. When I am located at x-axis, and conditions permit (ie. some particles on the y-axis), shouldnt I see the reflection of the laser beam? I think I would see. Same thing with supernova going on D5. What should preclude me from seeing this in D1-4?

    Regarding gravity, it does move galaxies, so why not any other item?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Have you seen gravity make anything disappear and/ or relocate?
    Imagine black hole eating up matter through a D5-11, shouldnt this be noticeable to an observer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Since these dimensions actually constitute reality as it is then how do we distinguish anything being "eaten up" through "D5-11"?
    If a particle suddenly falls into a black hole, we cannot observe it any more, right? Where is the event horizon of a black hole in D5-11? Or shouldn't we feel gravity from D5-11?
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  7. #6  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    Shouldnt supernova be one of the most powerful events in the universe?
    So what?
    What evidence do you have that power is required to "squeeze through dimensions"? (Whatever that means).
    If these dimensions exist they're compactified: and part of everyday existence. That means that EVERYTHING already exists in/ "uses" these dimensions.

    If this cannot use the dimension, what can? A quark only?
    I have no idea what you're talking about.
    "Use the dimension"?

    Assume a laser beam is set off at y-axis. When I am located at x-axis, and conditions permit (ie. some particles on the y-axis), shouldnt I see the reflection of the laser beam? I think I would see. Same thing with supernova going on D5. What should preclude me from seeing this in D1-4?
    A) a supernova is not a laser.
    B) I have no idea (again) what you're getting at. See my previous response about dimensions.
    C) see my previous post: Except that it's NOT visible that they do any "squeezing".

    If a particle suddenly falls into a black hole, we cannot observe it any more, right? Where is the event horizon of a black hole in D5-11? Or shouldn't we feel gravity from D5-11?
    What? So now you're positing that a supernova somehow creates really strong gravity?
    How do you know we don't already feel gravity "through" the extra dimensions: one more time - they're part of the structure of reality.
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  8. #7  
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    Are the extra dimensions thought to be curled up in lengths shorter than the Planck scale?
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  9. #8  
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    If this cannot use the dimension, what can? A quark only?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about.
    "Use the dimension"?
    Well, use of a dimension means something can move along its axis. If nothing can move or be present in a dimension, then that it probably not a dimension (or why should we call it a dimension then). My idea is that, despite of D5-11 to being tiny, strong powers should still push matter through these and detectable.

    If a particle suddenly falls into a black hole, we cannot observe it any more, right? Where is the event horizon of a black hole in D5-11? Or shouldn't we feel gravity from D5-11?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    What? So now you're positing that a supernova somehow creates really strong gravity?
    No. I am suggesting that strong forces produced by supernovas and black holes probably occupy also D5-11, and if they do, we should see some results: some mass/energy disappering and coming through D5-11, reflection of an explosion (for supernova) or matter falling (towards black hole).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    How do you know we don't already feel gravity "through" the extra dimensions: one more time - they're part of the structure of reality.
    Do we really see mass and energy disappering through these dimensions? Any evidence of that?

    Assume we live in a flat 2D world. A 3D being drops a drop of ink to our flat world. We are witnessing mass entering D1-2 from unobservable D3. Are we seeing similar events in D1-3? I have not see any.

    And you asked:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Have you seen gravity make anything disappear and/ or relocate?
    Hold your phone at any height. And then let it drop. Unless you are in space, you will see your phone being relocated pretty quickly. Newton though it is gravity


    Some claim Universe has wormholes. Shouldn't we see, any energy and gravity from these towards us?


    Kaido
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  10. #9  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    My idea is that, despite of D5-11 to being tiny, strong powers should still push matter through these and detectable.
    What do you mean by "push through"?
    Why do think this occurs?

    No. I am suggesting that strong forces produced by supernovas and black holes probably occupy also D5-11, and if they do, we should see some results: some mass/energy disappering and coming through D5-11, reflection of an explosion (for supernova) or matter falling (towards black hole).
    And we're back to: why do think that a "strong force is required to "push through""?

    Assume we live in a flat 2D world. A 3D being drops a drop of ink to our flat world. We are witnessing mass entering D1-2 from unobservable D3. Are we seeing similar events in D1-3? I have not see any.
    In other words: no there isn't any evidence.

    Hold your phone at any height. And then let it drop. Unless you are in space, you will see your phone being relocated pretty quickly. Newton though it is gravity
    Does it disappear?
    And your use of "relocate" seems to be rather loose.
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  11. #10  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    Hi!

    Newbie questions here. String theory claims that we have 11 dimensions. I am not sure what sort of matter extends to these extra-normal dimensions, but assume we have a Supernova. We have a pretty good idea how this travels in dimensions 1-3 (D1-3). How would a Supernova "use" dimensions 5+? Shouldn't we see results (or reflections) of Supernova travelling in D5-11 in our D1-3(4)?

    Same question related to gravity: if anything, shouldn't this travel (reach out) via D5-11? Shouldn't we then experience sudden disapparance or relocation of items, as these might be caught by sudden gravity influencing these from D5-11?

    I hope there is simple answer

    Thanks,
    Kaido
    As to my knowledge, the extra dimensions are unpaid jobless contortionists. They are small, very small, hence have very little effect and the dimensions we inhabit therefore refused to include them on their payroll.
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  12. #11  
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    As to my knowledge, the extra dimensions are unpaid jobless contortionists. They are small, very small, hence have very little effect and the dimensions we inhabit therefore refused to include them on their payroll.
    Are you really saying that the biggest powers in the known universe (black holes, supervovas) are not pulling and pushing matter through these dimensions? That these dimensions cannot host mass and gravity? Why do we call these dimensions then?

    K.
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  13. #12  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    Are you really saying that the biggest powers in the known universe (black holes, supervovas) are not pulling and pushing matter through these dimensions?
    You seem to be displaying some difficulties with comprehension.
    One more time: what makes you think that power is required to "push [matter] through dimensions"?
    What do you mean by "push [matter] through dimensions"?
    What makes you think ANYTHING "pushes [matter] through dimensions"?

    Why do we call these dimensions then?
    Because that's what they are.

    ETA: this isn't physics. Mods please move to the appropriate sub-forum.
    (Trash, probably: there's no actual argument here).
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    What do you mean by "push through"?
    Why do think this occurs?
    The way I understand a dimension is that it allows mass and energy to be present in/on it. Any mass there can then also move. The movement can be initiated by gravity, or be a result of inertia, or etc. Consequently, however small the D5-11 are, something moves there, and we should be able to detect in D1-3 stuff moving along D5-11 . If the force is powerful, like supernova, like black hole, the consequence is easier to see in D1-3.

    And we're back to: why do think that a "strong force is required to "push through""?
    Well, the theory is that D4-11 are tiny. Like a loophole. The tinier, the less visible, right? Unless a really big force is behind the loophole. This is what I mean by pushing through a tiny dimension.

    In other words: no there isn't any evidence.
    Why believe in D4-11 then?

    Hold your phone at any height. And then let it drop. Unless you are in space, you will see your phone being relocated pretty quickly. Newton though it is gravity
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Does it disappear?
    It would disappear (?) if it would pass the event horizon of a black hole.

    And your use of "relocate" seems to be rather loose.
    Is "move" better?

    br,
    Kaido
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  15. #14  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    The way I understand a dimension is that it allows mass and energy to be present in/on it.
    Really?
    How would you get mass in a single dimension?

    Any mass there can then also move.
    See above.

    Consequently, however small the D5-11 are, something moves there
    Supposition.

    and we should be able to detect in D1-3 stuff moving along D5-11 .
    Since we can't, as I have previously pointed, even detect these dimensions then how would we detect "stuff moving in them"?

    If the force is powerful, like supernova, like black hole, the consequence is easier to see in D1-3.
    And?

    Well, the theory is that D4-11 are tiny. Like a loophole. The tinier, the less visible, right? Unless a really big force is behind the loophole. This is what I mean by pushing through a tiny dimension.
    There's no connection to "pushing through" here.

    Why believe in D4-11 then?
    Yes, you appear to have misread: I was pointing out that you were essentially saying there's no evidence to support your contentions.

    It would disappear (?) if it would pass the event horizon of a black hole.
    Slightly different from your original claim - "experience sudden disapparance or relocation of items"

    Is "move" better?
    It depends on what you mean.


    You STILL haven't addressed my earlier point:
    So far as we can tell these "extra dimensions" are wrapped up so small that we can't notice them.
    Ergo they don't have a noticeable impact.




    I'll step back a bit and address an earlier claim of yours:
    PM Well, supernovas should be so powerful that they should squeeze through tiniest dimensions. Plus, it should be visible while they do that, as supernova, is ... quite visible.
    Suppose we lived in a "2D world" and could witness what happens in the "3D world". If someone sets off a 5 kg bomb they will see a spherical wavefront from the explosion while we see a circular one.
    If they then set off a nuke - vastly more powerful they'll see the concomitantly larger spherical wavefront, while we see - yet again - a circular one, and proportionally larger.
    Would we be able to infer from that that there's a third dimension?
    Would it make the third dimension noticeable to us?
    (Of course we may come up with a mathematical derivation for size of the wavefront - or radius of destruction - which uses a cubic exponent (3rd power) - but that doesn't mean that we can assume there's a third dimension,much less see it).
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    The way I understand a dimension is that it allows mass and energy to be present in/on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Really?
    How would you get mass in a single dimension?
    Mass exists also in a single dimension. Mass translates into inertia. It would would be pretty interesting to expect that irrespective of the size of the object, you can move it without mass/inertia in a single dimension.

    Consequently, however small the D5-11 are, something moves there
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Supposition.
    If nothing moves in there its not a dimension (at least for the purposes of this discussion).

    and we should be able to detect in D1-3 stuff moving along D5-11 .
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Since we can't, as I have previously pointed, even detect these dimensions then how would we detect "stuff moving in them"?
    The whole point of discussing dimensions is that there is an interaction between D1-3 and D5-11. If there is no interaction possible even in theory between them, we are wasting our time, there is no point in dicussing these. The reason D5-11 are dicussed is that that they have relevance in D1-3.

    If the force is powerful, like supernova, like black hole, the consequence is easier to see in D1-3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    And?
    We are not seeing any. That is the point.

    Well, the theory is that D4-11 are tiny. Like a loophole. The tinier, the less visible, right? Unless a really big force is behind the loophole. This is what I mean by pushing through a tiny dimension.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    There's no connection to "pushing through" here.
    Literally, say we have an impenetrable wall. Even for a supernova. And then there is a tiny loophole in it (~D5-11). Now the supernova goes off. Something *will* come through the loophole, or the loophole (D5-11) does not exist. If the strongest forces in the known universe do not come through the loophole, then loophole does not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    You STILL haven't addressed my earlier point:
    So far as we can tell these "extra dimensions" are wrapped up so small that we can't notice them.
    Ergo they don't have a noticeable impact.
    Impact (effect) is function of not only of the "size" of the D5-11 but also the of force "in" it. So while the argument works well for small forces, it does not hold when we think of the biggest known forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Suppose we lived in a "2D world" and could witness what happens in the "3D world". If someone sets off a 5 kg bomb they will see a spherical wavefront from the explosion while we see a circular one.
    If they then set off a nuke - vastly more powerful they'll see the concomitantly larger spherical wavefront, while we see - yet again - a circular one, and proportionally larger.
    Would we be able to infer from that that there's a third dimension?
    Yes, we can. If we have no plausibe explanation for the event, one of the easiest conclusions would be: effect from another dimension affecting D1-3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Would it make the third dimension noticeable to us?
    As you described, it *was* noticeable.



    Kaido
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  17. #16  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loidokaar View Post
    [Mass exists also in a single dimension.
    Citation needed.

    If nothing moves in there its not a dimension (at least for the purposes of this discussion).
    This is a circular sort of argument: what moves there?

    The whole point of discussing dimensions is that there is an interaction between D1-3 and D5-11.
    So you claim.

    The reason D5-11 are dicussed is that that they have relevance in D1-3.
    And that relevance would be... what, exactly?

    We are not seeing any. That is the point.
    Since we can't see those dimensions then we can't see any "consequence".

    [quoteLiterally, say we have an impenetrable wall. Even for a supernova. And then there is a tiny loophole in it (~D5-11). Now the supernova goes off. Something *will* come through the loophole, or the loophole (D5-11) does not exist. If the strongest forces in the known universe do not come through the loophole, then loophole does not exist.[/quote]
    A dimension is not a loophole.

    Impact (effect) is function of not only of the "size" of the D5-11 but also the of force "in" it.
    Supposition.

    Yes, we can.
    Really?

    If we have no plausibe explanation for the event, one of the easiest conclusions would be: effect from another dimension affecting D1-3.
    Nope.

    As you described, it *was* noticeable.
    Nope.
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