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Thread: Could the Universe be expanding into a singularity?

  1. #1 Could the Universe be expanding into a singularity? 
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    I know it seems to violate common sense, but bare with me for a moment. Recent findings of negative kelvin temperatures that are hotter than infinitely hot temperatures got me to thinking; what is the difference between infinity and negative infinity. Is there one? What happens when you go past infinity? Maybe the answer is that you start back over at negative infinity. So if our Universe is infinite as some postulate, and it's still expanding, what if it is racing back towards a singularity? That could be the reason behind the mysterious dark energy. As the Universe grows infinitely larger, all matter is getting closer to being infinitely close and therefore starts accelerating towards the relative center. It's possible that the "expansion" of the Universe is just relative to us as observers inside the Universe, but perhaps to an observer outside the Universe, it could appears as though we are collapsing at an accelerating rate.


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    Apart from anything else there is no centre.


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    Very good reasonings. But unfortunately I think no one can't answer you as no one doesn't know exactly what was before big bang. By the way I have a cool notion what if is hypothesis, which tell us that before big bang was nothing, true? Then I think it can be explained by striking fact. We can divide by zero. Year year, we can. Let's look on reverse operation named multiplication. 0*x=0. Solving this little equation and understanding that X can be any number. 2 or 13569 or other. And what if x is our universe, it can explain origin of our universe. Perhans our univers merely is 0 divided by 0 equals x.
    So there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    Very good reasonings. But unfortunately I think no one can't answer you as no one doesn't know exactly what was before big bang. By the way I have a cool notion what if is hypothesis, which tell us that before big bang was nothing, true? Then I think it can be explained by striking fact. We can divide by zero. Year year, we can. Let's look on reverse operation named multiplication. 0*x=0. Solving this little equation and understanding that X can be any number. 2 or 13569 or other. And what if x is our universe, it can explain origin of our universe. Perhans our univers merely is 0 divided by 0 equals x.
    So there!
    What?
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    Recent findings of negative kelvin temperatures that are hotter than infinitely hot temperatures got me to thinking;
    This is just a thermodynamical statistical quirk. There are no negative kelvin temperatures. A (not very good) science reporter came up with this headline.
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    Its the way nature is!
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    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
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    This thread is now one quarter crazy.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Among other things, theory of relativity and quantum theory provoked "what" as well. Formerly people thought, that earth stands on three tortoises, and reckoned that it was true. How can we explain that universe had appeared from nothing? If we consider theory of branes, we receive again theory of Russian dull, namely what was before branes.Year actually while dividing 2 by zero and any other different number from zero, we can't derive solution. But while we dividing 0 by 0, we can receive any number. And try to prove that it couldn't be in the case of Universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    But while we dividing 0 by 0, we can receive any number. And try to prove that it couldn't be in the case of Universe.
    What?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    But while we dividing 0 by 0, we can receive any number. And try to prove that it couldn't be in the case of Universe.
    What?
    One more time.
    0*x=0
    x=any number which is part of this interval{-inf, inf} ...-1,0,3,23,100500... etceteras.
    Of course we don't use it in mathematiсs on acount of one unknow give infinite quatity of solutions in this case.But who did tell that it can't be cause of big bang.
    At long last we use complex number,for example in oscillations, to simplify calculations.However all world that we can see is real, except hypotical particle such a tachyon and so forth.
    "Nothing is true, and everyting is permited".
    Of course my hypothesis can be wrong, but we can't prove that it couldn't be by 100% percents.
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    One of theory of big bang say to us. Before big bang nothing was. How to receive something out of nothing???
    Only this reckless operation, that is 0 by 0, can do that.
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    I sincerely hope that Strange doesn't see this thread or could be the end of him
    "
    Anyway Alex, I am sure that you have many fascinating ideas, but for what I've learned since I joined this forum is that in the section "Physics" one has to write with meaningful physical and mathematical arguments, and although 0x = 0 could seem appropriate in this case, probably it's not. Try to understand, 0x = 0 and x is the Universe, doesn't mean much physically speaking. No offense, maybe you should talk about it in a more appropriate section, such as Pseudoscience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    One more time.
    0*x=0
    x=any number which is part of this interval{-inf, inf} ...-1,0,3,23,100500... etceteras.
    Correct.
    So what?

    Of course we don't use it in mathematiсs on acount of one unknow give infinite quatity of solutions in this case.
    Wrong.
    0*x has only ONE solution: 0.

    But who did tell that it can't be cause of big bang.
    Mathematics doesn't cause anything.

    At long last we use complex number,for example in oscillations, to simplify calculations.
    What?

    However all world that we can see is real, except hypotical particle such a tachyon and so forth.
    So what?

    "Nothing is true, and everyting is permited".
    You'd have to show that's correct.

    Of course my hypothesis can be wrong, but we can't prove that it couldn't be by 100% percents.
    Wrong again: it's up to YOU to show that it is true. (And it's NOT a hypothesis - it's a wild guess, based on ignorance).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    One of theory of big bang say to us. Before big bang nothing was. How to receive something out of nothing???
    Take a look at the links in post #1 of this thread.

    Only this reckless operation, that is 0 by 0, can do that.
    Complete nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Wrong.0*x has only ONE solution: 0.
    It's true only for y: 0*x=y. But we search x exactly out of this equation 0*x=0[QUOTE=Dywyddyr;422837]
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    One of theory of big bang say to us. Before big bang nothing was. How to receive something out of nothing???
    Take a look at the links in post #1 of this thread./QUOTE]

    It's more complicated than zero by zero.
    Hence the same idea as mine I think as
    1) we don't know whether it is possible to reach border of infinity.
    2) let us suppose that it is possible. So that it is not quite clear what follows after border of infinity, zero or negative infinity.
    If to recall some thing out of mathematics. What kind of numbers is geater? {-inf,+inf} or just {inf}
    .Answer: equally. If we renumber negative infinite together with positive infinite, we'll see it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    It's true only for y: 0*x=y. But we search x exactly out of this equation 0*x=0
    Wrong. Zero times any number is ZERO.

    It's more complicated than zero by zero.
    So what?
    His idea has physics and rationality behind it.
    Yours has neither.

    Hence the same idea as mine I think as
    Nope.

    1) we don't know whether it is possible to reach border of infinity.
    Meaningless.

    2) let us suppose that it is possible. So that it is not quite clear what follows after border of infinity, zero or negative infinity.
    Also meaningless.

    If to recall some thing out of mathematics. What kind of numbers is geater? {-inf,+inf} or just {inf}
    .Answer: equally. If we renumber negative infinite together with positive infinite, we'll see it
    You're severely confused here.
    If we "renumber" 5 we can see it's 7.
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    3) in this case. What we consider that is correlated somehow with infinite. Space, energy, time and so on.
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    I beg you pardon If I did something wrong.I've just try to find answer what was before big bang.

    Most philosophers have known, at least since around 500 B.C., that the world perceived by our senses is not "the real world" but a constructwe create -- our own private work of art. Modern science beginning with Galileo's demonstration that color is not "in" objects but "in" the interaction of our senses with object, understands that “reality” is created by our own brains.

    Agree with me it's very hard question, we all have a right for mistake.Perhaps I took a very hard subject. And forgot that physics doesn't answer the question "why".It replies to "how" and "how much"
    One electron can astonish us. No exact traectory. Quantum theory tell us that electron doesn't move, namely teleportate between orbits straight away.

    It remain to accept the situation and to recollect Copenhagem Interpretation's the phrase. "Shut up and calculate".By the way, Could you tell me your ideas about as how to arise the Universe out of nothing.
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    Ummm.... OK, what? I thought my original post, regardless of how far fetched it may seem, would at least generate some intelligent conversation, clearly I was wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    How can we explain that universe had appeared from nothing?
    Do you have any evidence of that?

    But while we dividing 0 by 0, we can receive any number.
    No you can't. Maybe you need to learn some mathematics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jondustin View Post
    Ummm.... OK, what? I thought my original post, regardless of how far fetched it may seem, would at least generate some intelligent conversation, clearly I was wrong.
    Posts 2, 3, and 7 seem reasonably intelligent. The rest is rather disappointing.

    what is the difference between infinity and negative infinity. Is there one?
    Of course. One is positive and one is negative. One is larger than any positive number. The other is less than any negative number.

    What happens when you go past infinity?
    I guess you get to another infinity. You do know that there are an infinite number of infinities, each infinitely greater than the previous? For example, there are an infinite number of integers, but an infinitely larger number of reals.

    Maybe the answer is that you start back over at negative infinity.
    Nope.

    So if our Universe is infinite as some postulate, and it's still expanding, what if it is racing back towards a singularity?
    You seem to be confusing infinitely large with infinitely small with positive and negative.

    That could be the reason behind the mysterious dark energy.
    How would it explain dark energy? What would cause a sudden increase in the rate of expansion?

    As the Universe grows infinitely larger, all matter is getting closer to being infinitely close and therefore starts accelerating towards the relative center. It's possible that the "expansion" of the Universe is just relative to us as observers inside the Universe, but perhaps to an observer outside the Universe, it could appears as though we are collapsing at an accelerating rate.
    As far as we know, there is no center and there is no outside (that's kind of what "universe" means.
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    Guys in this case I can't find a mistakes.
    sin(x)=0 x=0,pi,-pi,2pi,-2pi...
    Now my reasonigs
    0/0=x
    0*x=0
    0*1=0
    0*-567=0
    0*4815162342=0
    Hense x=1 x=-567 x=4815162342....
    What's wrong? Just don't see mistakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    Guys in this case I can't find a mistakes.
    sin(x)=0 x=0,pi,-pi,2pi,-2pi...
    God only knows why that is relevant.

    Now my reasonigs
    0/0=x
    That is where you have gone wrong, for a start.

    Hense x=1 x=-567 x=4815162342....
    What's wrong? Just don't see mistakes.
    You are assuming that dividing by zero is defined. It isn't. Therefore everything else you do is wrong (i.e. not mathematics).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    0/0=x
    0/0 is not a defined operation in mathematics (Edit: in real field, nor in complex). The rest is correct. I understand that someone could be tempted to say that, as 0*x = 0 for every x, 0/0 = any number. But it is false, surrender!

    And, most important, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.. As already said, you can't prove anything in physics just using mathematics, even if you had not committed any mistake.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    0/0=x
    That's not reasoning.
    That's not mathematics.

    That is a fundamental error.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jondustin View Post
    I know it seems to violate common sense, but bare with me for a moment. Recent findings of negative kelvin temperatures that are hotter than infinitely hot temperatures got me to thinking; what is the difference between infinity and negative infinity.
    From what I've read about it, this "-ve temperature" kerfuffle is just journalists seeking a sensation. All they've got - I think - is an example of a system in which there is a population inversion, i.e. one in which you do not have the usual Boltzmann distribution among the available energy states. Such a situation is unstable and transient and, while it lasts, it is not really proper to speak of a temperature at all. Negative temperature is what you get out of the maths, that's all, it doesn't mean anything.

    But I'm open to correction by anyone who's better informed.
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    Ok, It seems that I understood why it is forbidden.My explanation(I think some people know that it's forbidden but don't understand why.)

    The point is that four arithmetical actions: addition, subtraction,multiplication, division are unequal. Mathematicains admit only two of them, that is addition and multiplication.The part of my reasonings I've decided to omit as it would to long.

    1)8/4=x 4*x=8 x=25/0=x 0*x=5 but stop, Anything that is multiplicated by zero is 0. 5 can't equal 0. That's alright.

    2) Now let's cast a glance at the next beast.
    0/0=x 0*x=0 however we got doubt as x can be any number.
    Here we can be enthralled by horribal and grandious delusionas sin(x)=0 give us several solutions.
    Then why it cannot be in the case of division by 0, namely 0/0.

    3) the final step.Let's consider this equation.
    0*2=0*3 2=3 -23=6.7 and so on. Hence any number equals any number that is completely and totally wrong.It's so pity that not all of the textbooks don't explain this zest. And some people considered it like certitude in God.

    But however I can't renounce from my notion totally. As I cannot announce that in the world without time, space, perhaps and energy as well, "withou cheese and chocolate". laws of physics and mathematics are the same.It could be whatever one likes before big bang.

    Sorry that I had confused with division by zero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    Ok, It seems that I understood why it is forbidden.My explanation(I think some people know that it's forbidden but don't understand why.)

    The point is that four arithmetical actions: addition, subtraction,multiplication, division are unequal. Mathematicains admit only two of them, that is addition and multiplication.The part of my reasonings I've decided to omit as it would to long.

    1)8/4=x 4*x=8 x=25/0=x 0*x=5 but stop, Anything that is multiplicated by zero is 0. 5 can't equal 0. That's alright.

    2) Now let's cast a glance at the next beast.
    0/0=x 0*x=0 however we got doubt as x can be any number.
    Here we can be enthralled by horribal and grandious delusionas sin(x)=0 give us several solutions.
    Then why it cannot be in the case of division by 0, namely 0/0.

    3) the final step.Let's consider this equation.
    0*2=0*3 2=3 -23=6.7 and so on. Hence any number equals any number that is completely and totally wrong.It's so pity that not all of the textbooks don't explain this zest. And some people considered it like certitude in God.
    I have no idea what your point is here.

    laws of physics and mathematics are the same.
    No they aren't.

    Sorry that I had confused with division by zero.
    You're evidently confused by more than just division.
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    Would you be so kind as to give me a links where is written about negative Kelvin's temperature?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    You're evidently confused by more than just division.
    Of course I have many questions about the world where we live
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    Ok, It seems that I understood why it is forbidden.My explanation(I think some people know that it's forbidden but don't understand why.)

    The point is that four arithmetical actions: addition, subtraction,multiplication, division are unequal. Mathematicains admit only two of them, that is addition and multiplication.The part of my reasonings I've decided to omit as it would to long.

    1)8/4=x 4*x=8 x=25/0=x 0*x=5 but stop, Anything that is multiplicated by zero is 0. 5 can't equal 0. That's alright.

    2) Now let's cast a glance at the next beast.
    0/0=x 0*x=0 however we got doubt as x can be any number.
    Here we can be enthralled by horribal and grandious delusionas sin(x)=0 give us several solutions.
    Then why it cannot be in the case of division by 0, namely 0/0.

    3) the final step.Let's consider this equation.
    0*2=0*3 2=3 -23=6.7 and so on. Hence any number equals any number that is completely and totally wrong.It's so pity that not all of the textbooks don't explain this zest. And some people considered it like certitude in God.

    But however I can't renounce from my notion totally. As I cannot announce that in the world without time, space, perhaps and energy as well, "withou cheese and chocolate". laws of physics and mathematics are the same.It could be whatever one likes before big bang.

    Sorry that I had confused with division by zero.
    Please, please, please go and learn the basics of mathematics. Did you miss out on a school education?

    I assume English is not your native language so I won't comment too much on that. But you might want to double-check what you have written before you post. Most of what you have written above is incomprehensible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    0/0=x 0*x=0 however we got doubt as x can be any number.
    There is no doubt: 0x = 0 has an infinite number of solutions, that is to say, x can be any real number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex009988 View Post
    But however I can't renounce from my notion totally. As I cannot announce that in the world without time, space, perhaps and energy as well, "withou cheese and chocolate". laws of physics and mathematics are the same.It could be whatever one likes before big bang.
    Let's reiterate: you cannot demonstrate anything physical using only mathematical arguments. Physics is what we use to study nature, mathematics is a tool that is extremely useful for it, but whereas you can (in principle) invent Mathematics staying in your house with a piece of paper and a pen, you cannot "invent" Physics. So, we cannot demonstrate anything physical saying that 0x = 0 has an infinite number of solutions. There's no way. Are we agree now?
    Moreover, the Big Bang theory doesn't state absolutely anything about what was "before", and doesn't really talk about an explosion. The term "before", besides, is something that has meaning only if we imply that time had the same structure during the first moments of life of the Universe. And we don't know much about it.
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    Ok guys. Agreed that made a foolish act. Many people can have a kernel panic in their mind when they're thinking about such deep questions.
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