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Thread: How can determinism exist in the normal level, but not the quantum level?

  1. #1 How can determinism exist in the normal level, but not the quantum level? 
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    Wouldn't things in the quantum level also affect things in the normal level?


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    Whether or not the Universe is deterministic is unknown. As it stands, the quantum level is something we cannot directly observe. We must deal with probabilities.
    However, recent work demonstrates that some things on the Quantum Level are very strange, and may well be true probabilities, not just a measurement problem.

    Personally, I'm holding off on forming a strong opinion on it...


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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Haha I was reading the abstract and thought. This sounds familiar. :P He was one of my professors.

    But to the original question. A simple return question: Does it?

    Does determinism really exist in a normal level?
    A simple argument can be as follows. For determinism to exist at the 'normal level' (Since it is knowingly been refuted on a quantum level) It would be evident that in this normal level, Determinism is Deterministic. In short, that it can be deterministic about everything it encompasses as part of the 'normal' level.

    So let's exemplify a simple, every day life example. 'Why did Jack Whittaker won the lottery?'
    Determinism implies there is a deterministic past to why Jack Whittaker (JW) specifically won the lottery. Since the wining of JW must exist deterministically it has to be causal. This means there must have been something that JW did differently from anyone else, that made him won the lottery ticket.

    Fact is of course, that he didn't. That is just the thing, with Determinism comes almost always intrinsically Causality. But this would mean that everything that happens in our 'normal' level must have a cause! And of course it simply doesn't. There are plenty of 'normal' events which are not causal. And hence cannot be expressed deterministically.

    Determinism is a frantic attempt to ascribe meaning and cause to statistics. And they just don't have that. Someone will eventually win the lottery, and it is pure chance why it is a specific number. It is even pure chance why there is a specific number to a specific person. And yet it happens. The world isn't Causal, and isn't Deterministic. It was just an attempt of the thought that mankind could control all and everything of nature.
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    well, some ppl will say, he had no choice to not win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Wouldn't things in the quantum level also affect things in the normal level?
    Statisticians call it the "Law of Large Numbers". It's the idea that certain traits of any large group of random events are not very random.

    If you roll a million six sided dice you almost always get an approximately equal number of 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, and 6's. This is the main reason why insurance companies are able to be profitable without going out of business every year. (Some of them.... anyway...)

    Now, if you roll 10 dice, you might easily get three 1's and zero 2's. But if you roll a million dice, you'll never get 400,000 1's, and 50,000 2's. The odds of that happening are just ridiculously bad.

    That is why individual quanta can behave randomly, but large groups of quanta behave deterministically. What you are observing is the cumulative result of an incredibly large number of dice.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    well, some ppl will say, he had no choice to not win.
    I don't really get your point, would you care to elaborate?
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    it's about the free will thread in phylosophy. it was determined for JW to buy the winning ticket, he had no choice but to win the jackpot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Now, if you roll 10 dice, you might easily get three 1's and zero 2's. But if you roll a million dice, you'll never get 400,000 1's, and 50,000 2's. The odds of that happening are just ridiculously bad.
    well, rolling a 6million dice could also get you 6million 1's, right?

    even having the odds of having 1million 1's, 1million 2's, 1million 3's, 1million4's, 1million 5's, 1million6's (in a specific order), you could also say its "ridiculously bad", but you must note that it has the same chance as getting 6million 1's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    it's about the free will thread in phylosophy. it was determined for JW to buy the winning ticket, he had no choice but to win the jackpot.
    Nature says this remark is bullshit: Wheeler's delayed choice experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    JW has free will, and can change that. There was a time that the numbers were already drawn, and he didn't know he had won. He could have burnt the ticket. And if he didn't memorize them. He wouldn't have won. And he would have never known it.

    Nature isn't deterministic.
    (the more I have to say it, the harder I become in it. Let go of this weird need for determinism people (all people))

    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerling View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    it's about the free will thread in phylosophy. it was determined for JW to buy the winning ticket, he had no choice but to win the jackpot.
    Nature says this remark is bullshit: Wheeler's delayed choice experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    JW has free will, and can change that. There was a time that the numbers were already drawn, and he didn't know he had won. He could have burnt the ticket. And if he didn't memorize them. He wouldn't have won. And he would have never known it.

    Nature isn't deterministic.
    (the more I have to say it, the harder I become in it. Let go of this weird need for determinism people (all people))

    hey, i'm with you, i was just stating the opinion of others here ... not mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    hey, i'm with you, i was just stating the opinion of others here ... not mine.
    No, you are not.
    You are mocking an argument where you do not know the difference between the two. The opinion of others was never based on whether or not the Universe is deterministic or not, but based on the fallacy of assuming a deterministic Universe that includes Free Will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    hey, i'm with you, i was just stating the opinion of others here ... not mine.
    No, you are not.
    You are mocking an argument where you do not know the difference between the two. The opinion of others was never based on whether or not the Universe is deterministic or not, but based on the fallacy of assuming a deterministic Universe that includes Free Will.
    you're right, i apologize for interrupting. it won't happen again.
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    then what r the diffs between:
    1) casual determinism
    2) universal determinism?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    then what r the diffs between:
    1) casual determinism
    2) universal determinism?


    Everything has a reason, there are multiple worlds,The worlds return and gather our world, so no repeatability and determinism, but there are things we do not know now from future and we do them Statistics , but thay exsist , so:
    there casual 'no one determinism , and many world in the univers
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