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Thread: How could the big bang create itself?

  1. #1 How could the big bang create itself? 
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    I know people says its a quantum fluctuation, but how can it happen if: the more the energy created from quan flux, the less time it can exist, and will pop back out of existence....

    and the universe was around for so many years?


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    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    Because thanks to gravity, the net energy of the universe may be zero.


    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  4. #3  
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    then why does the bigger the quantum fluctuations, the less time it exists, and pops back out of existence?

    you know the quantum fluctuations are where energy and gravity are created together, and the net is 0, right?

    since scientists agree bb exists, and its a huge quantum flux, why didnt it pop back out of existence quickly?
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  5. #4  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    then why does the bigger the quantum fluctuations, the less time it exists, and pops back out of existence?
    Bigger doesn't refer to physical size, it refers to energy. Less energy, more time, and if the net energy of the universe is zero, there's no time limit on how long the fluctuation can exist. At this point, the fluctuation has fluctuated out of the realm of quantum phenomena.

    you know the quantum fluctuations are where energy and gravity are created together, and the net is 0, right?
    No, for the most part, gravity is not a component of a fluctuation, and the net us usually not zero. That's why fluctuations usually don't last.

    since scientists agree bb exists, and its a huge quantum flux, why didnt it pop back out of existence quickly?
    Because the energy of the fluctuation went into the inflaton field, which drove the universe from the size of a proton to the size of a softball in 10-23 seconds. The universe didn't have time to pop back out of existence before it was too big for quantum effects to erase it.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    why didnt it pop back out of existence quickly?
    Define quickly. Define the range of quickly for quantum fluctuations. Define the maxium outlier for a quantum fluctuation.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    The only real answer to this at the moment is: we don't know.

    One version of this scenario I have seen is that prior to the big bang, the system was in a false vacuum state. The quantum fluctuation was just enough to perturb this so it could fall to a lower energy state. The energy released was the big bang.

    False vacuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    you know the quantum fluctuations are where energy and gravity are created together, and the net is 0, right?
    No, for the most part, gravity is not a component of a fluctuation, and the net us usually not zero. That's why fluctuations usually don't last.
    Since you say the net of a fluctuation is not zero, and you say that the net of the universe is zero, and you would agree that the quantum flux happens in the universe, aren't you contradicting yourself?
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  9. #8  
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    Since you say the net of a fluctuation is not zero
    Are you missing the word 'usually?
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  10. #9  
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    Since you say the net of a fluctuation is not always zero, and you say that the net of the universe is zero, and you would agree that the quantum flux happens in the universe, aren't you contradicting yourself?
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  11. #10  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    I see no contradiction. For the net energy of the universe to be zero, it is not necessary for the net energy of every interaction in the universe to be zero.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The only real answer to this at the moment is: we don't know.

    One version of this scenario I have seen is that prior to the big bang, the system was in a false vacuum state. The quantum fluctuation was just enough to perturb this so it could fall to a lower energy state. The energy released was the big bang.
    Yes exactly, at the moment we do not know about this.
    But possibly before Big Bang matter/energy should be present in other form .It is also not true that vacuum energy coming from 'nothing'. It has existed since the start of the universe and is simply an effect of physics as Law of Conservation Energy .
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  13. #12  
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    and where did u get that info raj_k?

    For the net energy of the universe to be zero, it is not necessary for the net energy of every interaction in the universe to be zero.


    Doesnt everything in the universe MAKE the universe? if the contents in the universe doesnt add up to 0 at any given instant, how could you say the net of the universe is zero?
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  14. #13  
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    if the contents in the universe doesnt add up to 0 at any given instant, how could you say the net of the universe is zero?
    Not every reaction must add to zero. If you have two reactions, one with a positive energy and the other with a negative, they will sum to zero, but the first reaction is not a zero sum reaction, and neither is the second.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Then where does the negative of quantum flux exist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    I know people says its a quantum fluctuation, but how can it happen if: the more the energy created from quan flux, the less time it can exist, and will pop back out of existence....

    and the universe was around for so many years?
    Explanations to this vary greatly. Fact of the matter is, that we probably can't prove it anyway. Hence I'd say find something better to do with your mind :P
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerling View Post
    Explanations to this vary greatly. Fact of the matter is, that we probably can't prove it anyway. Hence I'd say find something better to do with your mind :P
    So that, in fact, DOES live a huge and large room for religion?
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  18. #17  
    Forum Bachelors Degree Kerling's Avatar
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    sure the origin of the big bang is a great unprovable mystery. everything after 10^-34 seconds is completely explained by science. the pope (johan) actually stated that god created the big bang and physics and biology so that the world would evolve the way it did.
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    Well, parallel universes have different universal constant and different universal laws. gravity could repell, electrons could attract each other, the speed of light could vary in parallel universes, so does that/ doesn't that rule out god? or vice versa....
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  20. #19  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    So that, in fact, DOES live a huge and large room for religion?
    I don't (for the moment) have a problem with people deciding that their god did that (and, apparently, nothing else since).

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Well, parallel universes have different universal constant and different universal laws.
    Do they? I suspect we know even less about that than we do about god(s).
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  21. #20  
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    ryanawe123,

    How could the big bang create itself?
    Of course there are a number of different hypothesis concerning a beginning Big Bang (BB), but I think the consensus hypothesis still seems the most logical BB hypothesis to me. Accordingly the Big Bang entity itself was not created. For it to have been created would imply a time before the standard BB beginning. The Big Bang entity itself was accordingly the beginning of time; there was no time or even surrounding space before that, since "before that" would be meaningless. The Big Bang entity accordingly was the beginning of time, space, and the entire universe. That BB entity accordingly had the potential energy within it to become the universe as we now see it.

    The second most popular Big Bang hypothesis now might be that the Big Bang arose from a type of fluctuation in a pre-existing field. Either this field (such as the Zero Point Field, another universe, etc.) that always existed, or its creation would have to also be explained.

    Another hypothesis is some type of cyclical universe or multiverse leading to a beginning hot-dense rapidly expanding field of our beginning universe.

    Right or wrong, the first hypothesis above seems logically consistent with itself and the universe as we can observe it, while the second or any other alternative BB hypothesis that I have heard of seems to require more hypothetical speculation, in my opinion.
    Last edited by forrest noble; March 15th, 2013 at 07:13 PM.
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  22. #21  
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    there is no theory of the BB itself. our numbers/knowledge starts after point 0.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    there is no theory of the BB itself. our numbers/knowledge starts after point 0.
    About fifteen years ago and longer, the general consensus BB version was that they could reliably go back to 1/100th of a second after the supposed beginning, and today still speculate back to a time of 10-43 seconds after a beginning or "Big Bang." This is probably still the plurality version, if not still the majority BB version of the beginning concerning time. In this version time and space were both created as a result of a beginning event. Yes, present and past theory concerning the math/ physics of any known BB models do not go back to a beginning where time equals zero.

    [astro-ph/9503017] The Hot Big Bang and Beyond
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  24. #23  
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    1)Law of conservation of energy says that the total amount of energy in remains constant over time. The total energy is said to be conserved over time. For an isolated system, this law means that energy can change its location within the system, and that it can change form within the system, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

    2)Special Relativity showd that mass and energy are related by an equivalence. Energy has an equivalent and mass has an equivalent energy . So there is law of conservation of mass-energy

    3)About "TIME/SPACETIME" we do know it is cause or effect for example gravity is an effect of matter

    3. "Law of conservation of mass-energy" shows that nothing can come from nothing . If matter/energy is existed today it must be converted from some physical existed object may be in any form.

    4. If "Time " does not exist psychically , it is behavior of "existed objects " . If objects exists before BIG BANG , was there behavior different ? Possibly no, it shows it is permanent behavior of existed objects to remain in "change"

    5. If "Time"exist physically it must exist before Big Bang as space exist much before BIGBANG

    It seem most accurate that space/time and physically existing objects like matter were from forever and would remain forever only states would change
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    1)Law of conservation of energy says that the total amount of energy in remains constant over time.
    This is only locally true.
    Is Energy Conserved in General Relativity?
    Why and how energy is not conserved in cosmology

    5. If "Time"exist physically it must exist before Big Bang as space exist much before BIGBANG
    Space-time is a fixed unchanging thing. It has a singularity at t=0. In the current model, there is no "before".
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    4. If "Time " does not exist psychically , it is behavior of "existed objects " . If objects exists before BIG BANG , was there behavior different ? Possibly no, it shows it is permanent behavior of existed objects to remain in "change"

    5. If "Time"exist physically it must exist before Big Bang as space exist much before BIGBANG

    It seem most accurate that space/time and physically existing objects like matter were from forever and would remain forever only states would change
    Suppositions.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    4. If "Time " does not exist psychically , it is behavior of "existed objects " . If objects exists before BIG BANG , was there behavior different ? Possibly no, it shows it is permanent behavior of existed objects to remain in "change"

    5. If "Time"exist physically it must exist before Big Bang as space exist much before BIGBANG

    It seem most accurate that space/time and physically existing objects like matter were from forever and would remain forever only states would change
    Suppositions.
    Agree
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    1)Law of conservation of energy says that the total amount of energy in remains constant over time.
    This is only locally true.
    Is Energy Conserved in General Relativity?
    Why and how energy is not conserved in cosmology

    5. If "Time"exist physically it must exist before Big Bang as space exist much before BIGBANG
    Space-time is a fixed unchanging thing. It has a singularity at t=0. In the current model, there is no "before".
    If Space-time is a fixed unchanging thing , it means it was present before Big Bang
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    If Space-time is a fixed unchanging thing , it means it was present before Big Bang
    Or maybe it means that, once created, space-time is NOW a fixed unchanging thing.

    Now != then.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    If Space-time is a fixed unchanging thing , it means it was present before Big Bang
    There is no "before" when talking about space-time. It includes time as a dimension.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  31. #30  
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    Here, i got this to back up my statement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    1)Law of conservation of energy says that the total amount of energy in remains constant over time.
    This is only locally true.
    Is Energy Conserved in General Relativity?
    Why and how energy is not conserved in cosmology

    5. If "Time"exist physically it must exist before Big Bang as space exist much before BIGBANG
    Space-time is a fixed unchanging thing. It has a singularity at t=0. In the current model, there is no "before".
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