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Thread: Why isn't there a push for HYDROGEN POWERED CARS?

  1. #1 Why isn't there a push for HYDROGEN POWERED CARS? 
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    I don't understand why there isn't a push for them. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, I know it is hard to get by itself but we can do it. We will never run out of it, the only by-product from a hydrogen car is water. They have the chance to be really powerful and there are already cars out there that have hydrogen fuel cells on them and that work like normal cars. The Honda FCX Clarity is one of those cars. It has a normal sized fuel tank, It can drive around 300 miles on a tank of hydrogen, it drives like a normal car, looks like a normal car, it basically is a normal car. We KNOW that battery powered cars suck. They have the range of nothing and take hours to charge. So why are they trying to push this more than hydrogen? It fills just as fast as gas, has a range as far as gas and as of right now isn't that much more expensive than gas and we're still in the very early stages of it. I know hydrogen is hard to store, why? I am not really sure on that, but Honda has done it with the FCX Clarity. And if the world were to put a push on hydrogen fuel celled cars instead of pushes on other BS crap that doesn't work, we most likely will find a solution. Now that I've gotten that said, an idea I have that I am unsure of if it actually works would be why not put an onboard filling station on the car? Take a tank of water, use electrolysis (I know this draws more power than you receive, but what if you were to add generators to the wheels so that they generated electricity when spinning and if you were to add solar panels to the car and maybe even small wind generators. This would create more electricity and that could be used for the electrolysis) Now I do not know how to make a hydrogen fuel cell, so this idea might not be even possible but maybe others can spring up. Take the hydrogen you get from electrolysis and use it to power the batteries/motor to drive the car. The hydrogen will then bond with the oxygen and you will get the amount of water that you started with (at least I think). Instead of dumping it out of the car, why not put it back in the fuel tank and start the electrolysis again. So long story short, you have an unlimited power source. Now I am only a freshman in college and I haven't really had classes about any of this stuff and I don't know that much. So this idea is just one that I have thought of over the years and I do not know why it wouldn't work and why there isn't more of a push on hydrogen powered cars (meaning cars that work because they act like our cars now) vs. stupid battery cars that get power from an outlet and take years to charge.


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  3. #2  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Please watch....

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...DsEIFGz8aRsXSg

    This can be fitted into any car today.


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    i would like to point out that it takes more energy to break the bonds of water than you will get back by burning it. no matter how you break those bonds. this is a old "discovery", do a search on brown's gas for cars.

    for the OP. hydrogen is hard to store. if you got it by using renewables then it would be ok as far as efficiencies go. the best use is in fuel cells rather than as a direct fuel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds5874 View Post
    The Honda FCX Clarity is one of those cars. It has a normal sized fuel tank, It can drive around 300 miles on a tank of hydrogen, it drives like a normal car, looks like a normal car, it basically is a normal car.
    But is it economically viable?

    We KNOW that battery powered cars suck. They have the range of nothing and take hours to charge. So why are they trying to push this more than hydrogen?
    They don't suck. They re getting better all the time. The distribution network is in place for electricity. Storage systems have already been developed for electricity (and are being rapidly) improved. They are also working on methods to fully recharge the batteries in minutes. Or use swappable battery packs.

    You need a whole new infrastructure for the distribution of hydrogen. It has a really low energy density and is hard to store. And it tends to leak away or explode.

    know hydrogen is hard to store, why? I am not really sure on that
    And there is your problem.

    Take a tank of water, use electrolysis (I know this draws more power than you receive, but what if you were to add generators to the wheels so that they generated electricity when spinning and if you were to add solar panels to the car and maybe even small wind generators.
    The generators on the wheels would make the car consume more energy (to drive the generators). Ditto the wind generators. TANSTAAFL.

    Solar panels, mmm, maybe. They can provide a tiny reserve of backup power.

    But if you did use any of these for generating energy, it would be much simpler and more efficient to just use the electricity to drive electric motors.

    You can the generate electricity from the motors when braking or running downhill and recharge the batteries.
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    By using the radio wave methold of producing hydrogen you would be making hydrogen as you drive using the cars own 250 AMP alternator to power the radio wave generator thereby not needing any large storage tanks under great pressures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    By using the radio wave methold of producing hydrogen you would be making hydrogen as you drive using the cars own 250 AMP alternator to power the radio wave generator thereby not needing any large storage tanks under great pressures.
    Those 250 amps would have to come from the fuel the car is using. If you had a source of electricity it would be much more efficient to just charge the batteries and use it to drive electric motors.
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    By using the radio wave methold of producing hydrogen you would be making hydrogen as you drive using the cars own 250 AMP alternator to power the radio wave generator thereby not needing any large storage tanks under great pressures.
    sounds like perpetual motion. or over unity. either way you'll need another power source to make up for the losses.

    also. what car has a 250 amp alternator? most would be 100 amp up to 160 amp.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Not really but only a equilibrium sort of. If we could balance the amount of hydrogen needed to what a efficiant vehicle could use, we could find ways to try and just make what is needed to keep the vehicle going . Without needing a big tank to carry the reserve hydrogen, for most will be used while driving, we could see this type of system being mass produced in the near future. By no means am I saying that this is a "perpetual motion" device because it will need to manufacture hydrogen while it is not driving somehow. That could be stored as the reserve and to have extra in times of needed greater power requirements.
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    what car has a 250 amp alternator? most would be 100 amp up to 160 amp.
    Please read.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Bag-dhWAjJActw
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    well yes they are made but not many cars come with one fitted.

    power from splitting then recombing water is onlt efficient if you use renewables like solar or wind where the "fuel" is free. you can't get over the fact that you wont get as much energy out as you put in.

    the only place this might happen is in another universe where the physical laws are different. and even then i wonder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Not really but only a equilibrium sort of. If we could balance the amount of hydrogen needed to what a efficiant vehicle could use, we could find ways to try and just make what is needed to keep the vehicle going .
    The electricity you generate to produce the hydrogen would be more efficiently used by being stored in a battery and then used directly for propulsion. Where is the benefit in wasting energy to generate hydrogen and then wasting more energy to compress it.
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    But you wouldn't need to compress it under high pressure, you could use low pressure by using heated chicken wing quills, not feathers, as someone has already found out.

    Ever hear of this company and what it is making?

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...KKGkqQV5bB1q0w
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    But you wouldn't need to compress it under high pressure, you could use low pressure by using heated chicken wing quills, not feathers, as someone has already found out.
    You are still wasting energy by generating hydrogen instead of just using the electricity directly.

    It's like, I ask you to lend me $10. You say, "OK but first I'm going to convert it into Euros and give you that.. Then when you need the dollars, you can just convert the Euros". I'll probably end up with $5.

    TANSTAAFL.

    Ever hear of this company and what it is making?

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...KKGkqQV5bB1q0w
    MacroSonix - Sound, Macro Waves and Reverberation ?

    That is just a series of pages on sound waves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    But you wouldn't need to compress it under high pressure, you could use low pressure by using heated chicken wing quills, not feathers, as someone has already found out.
    You are still wasting energy by generating hydrogen instead of just using the electricity directly.

    It's like, I ask you to lend me $10. You say, "OK but first I'm going to convert it into Euros and give you that.. Then when you need the dollars, you can just convert the Euros". I'll probably end up with $5.

    TANSTAAFL.

    Ever hear of this company and what it is making?

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...KKGkqQV5bB1q0w
    MacroSonix - Sound, Macro Waves and Reverberation ?

    That is just a series of pages on sound waves.
    If you'd read more, they can create the sound waves that could also be used to seperate the hydrogen from the water without using any energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If you'd read more, they can create the sound waves that could also be used to seperate the hydrogen from the water without using any energy.
    I didn't see that. If they said that then they are lying. (Or fraudsters.)

    EDIT: I have just searched macrosonix.com; no mention of generating hydrogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    TANSTAAFL
    True dat, and TANSTAFH either.

    On top of being in prototypical development, the technology is not economically sensible in the near-future for any sort of wide spread use. But of course, some people are working on it. It is not a forgotten concept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If you'd read more, they can create the sound waves that could also be used to seperate the hydrogen from the water without using any energy.
    Oh dear, alarm bells should ring at this point. A sound wave has very measurable energy, the speakers in your stereo will require electrical energy to make a sound you can hear, no energy, no sound wave. Splitting water using a sound wave doesn't sound very feasible, water molecules carry the sound, it's the medium, you can excite the medium (in fact, can use ultrasound to excite water into a mist, (an effect used by DJs, as smoke can irritate people) ) but to rip apart a molecule? I doubt it, you'd change the state of your medium first, surely, and then it would be rarified, subject to mean free path pv=1/3nm[c^2] , and you'd not have so many collisions of molecules any longer. and that's the only mechanism I could see that would split off the H2, as the sound wave does not travel inside a water molecule, it is carried _by_ the molecule. Even then, you'd have to hit the water with a massive dose of sound energy, with a really sharp attack, a huge shockwave, and even then I'm not convinced it's a useable technology to produce H2. As the folks have said, 'there's no such thing as a free lunch', nature doesn't give us shortcuts, the nearest thing we get are catalysts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by epidecus View Post
    It is not a forgotten concept.
    Absolutely. Among the wackier schemes I have seen was a proposal to use supercooled cables for electricity distribution. The cooling done by pumping liquid hydrogen in at one end and taking it out at the other so you have combined electricity and hydrogen distribution in one.
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    It could be an option to use the electricity from an electrical plan to produce hydrogen rather than to load batteries, for car propulsion. I have no idea about the energetic efficiency, but it would certainly have advantages in terms of available W / Kg. I heard that the idea as been studied in the 70's. It rised a little security issue : combined with the oxygen of the atmosphere, hydrogen gives an highly detonant mixture. In case of road accident or important leak, this can transform any average familial car into a neat average bomb.
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    Hydrogen is hard to store for the simple reason that it is the smallest element we know. Also compressing it makes the feul tasks and systems really heavy. Solid state storage is being researched.
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    why isn't there a push for hydrogen powered automobiles yet?

    The main answer is that the cost of the cars, their expected maintenace cost, and the cost of producing and distributing the hydrogen fuel is not competative as yet. Anyone, however, can go out now and buy such a car if he doesn't mind the limited range, extra expenses, presently lower powered, and comparatively inexcessable and higher priced fuel. Even in high production such cars and its fuel system would still not be competitive, but put the fuel price at the 6-7 dollar range per gallon, like it is in some countries, then hydrogen cars may eventually become competitive.
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    Unless we have Fusion reactor powered cars, Hydrogen is not a source of energy, just storage. Plus a whole hydrogen infrastructure that mimics the waste bonanza of the petroleum model would be senseless (except in our senseless monetary system where more waste is more jobs and more useless activity is good for the economy) . You might as well make roads with induction or electric rails, or better yet, design unban areas with monorails in mind like EPCOT center (and improved remote work/automation) so you dont need to push around 2 tons of metal for each commuter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If you'd read more, they can create the sound waves that could also be used to seperate the hydrogen from the water without using any energy.
    I didn't see that. If they said that then they are lying. (Or fraudsters.)

    EDIT: I have just searched macrosonix.com; no mention of generating hydrogen.
    Their decive makes energy which can be converted to hame hydrogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerling View Post
    Hydrogen is hard to store for the simple reason that it is the smallest element we know. Also compressing it makes the feul tasks and systems really heavy. Solid state storage is being researched.
    Please read what this man has come up with for storing hydrogen under low pressure.
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...ERfxYWKbKwjAmw
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerling View Post
    Hydrogen is hard to store for the simple reason that it is the smallest element we know. Also compressing it makes the feul tasks and systems really heavy. Solid state storage is being researched.
    Please read what this man has come up with for storing hydrogen under low pressure.http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...ERfxYWKbKwjAmw
    Yes that would be solid state storage. It does have some major disadvantages but in the end they'll form hydrogen batteries.
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds5874 View Post
    I don't understand why there isn't a push for them. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, I know it is hard to get by itself but we can do it.
    I think what you'll find is that whilst hydrogen technology is interesting the car industry is still almost completely dependant on diesel/petrol, there are several new technologies around at the moment and most of the big manufactures have dipped their toes in the water, but none are likely to dive in without knowing which is the best way to go.
    We've electric cars for a couple of decades now and yet they still arn't being bought at anything near enough to sustain a single large car manufacturer, the problem they have draw backs because the technology is far from perfect, now the same can also be said for hydrogen but hydrogen is also expensive and dangerous, which is never a brilliant combination and far from being a mass production technology.

    I in the future we are likely to see more and more alternative energy sources in our vehicles but until the technologies are perfected and the battles are won over which technologies are the future don't expect them to be cheap or abundant.
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    Anyway you slice it , it takes more energy to make the H2 than it delivers-- makes about as much sense as building a 93000000 mile pipe line to the sun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney View Post
    Anyway you slice it , it takes more energy to make the H2 than it delivers-- makes about as much sense as building a 93000000 mile pipe line to the sun.
    I have seen this idea several times but it causes me to ask about solar powered H2 extraction. How effiecient does a process have to be if the power to run it is free? The advantage of H2 as a fuel is that you don't have to have a wimpy electric car to use it. H2 will run a standard internal combustion engin just fine. second point: How much energy does it take to get a gallon of gas to the pump? Do we really get more energy out of it than we put in?
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    H2 will run a standard internal combustion engin just fine? No sealeaf it doesn't. And I'd love to see you try. . recombining hydrogen and oxygen via a burning process isn't very energy efficient, and very impractical.Just think of the metaphorical though in this case very literal; keeping a fire burning when all you get is water.No, you can't run a standard combustion engine on hydrogen. Period.
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    furthermore---The combustion of hydrogen with air can also produce oxides of nitrogen. Although it is only produced in small quantities, research has shown that the oxides of nitrogen are about 310 times more harmful as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.[7] Tuning a hydrogen engine to produce the greatest amount of emissions possible, results in emissions comparable with consumer operated gasoline engines from 1976
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    Gasoline is already too dangerous for people use. Take in consideration some idiot who just doesn't care for what happens. So he is driving and he hits another car and they both explode. Plus hydrogen pollutes just as much if not more. I would simply just use electricity from nuclear reactors. Which I think people are really have a bias idea about nuclear power plants.
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    Plus hydrogen pollutes just as much if not more.
    how?
    Sometimes it is better not knowing than having an answer that may be wrong.
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    Why is this still going on? Lets all agree that people are still going to use fuel until it runs out and we will figure out and alternative when the day comes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispen Evan View Post
    Plus hydrogen pollutes just as much if not more.
    how?
    Have you seen a hydrogen balloon burn? It burns very fast and if I'm not wrong; it also produces emissions.
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    The biggest pile of bull and disinfo I've read on any thread, not one mention of the oligarchy running the oil industry, and how free energy would destroy their power.
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    and if I'm not wrong; it also produces emissions.
    what are those emissions?

    The biggest pile of bull and disinfo I've read on any thread, not one mention of the oligarchy running the oil industry, and how free energy would destroy their power.
    *we would have if this thread had been in the pseudoscience sub-forum but here we try and stick to science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhysicsApple View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispen Evan View Post
    Plus hydrogen pollutes just as much if not more.
    how?
    Have you seen a hydrogen balloon burn? It burns very fast and if I'm not wrong; it also produces emissions.
    In hydrogen combustion the result is simply water and nothing else. The pollution results from creating the hydrogen and fuel cells in the first place.
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    Hydrogen Basics - Inernal Combustion Engines
    There are four basic issues regarding hydrogen-fueled engines and vehicles: engine backfire and susceptibility of hydrogen to surface ignition, somewhat reduced engine power, high nitric oxide (NOx) emissions, and the problem of on-board storage of the fuel and safety.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Hydrogen Basics - Inernal Combustion Engines
    There are four basic issues regarding hydrogen-fueled engines and vehicles: engine backfire and susceptibility of hydrogen to surface ignition, somewhat reduced engine power, high nitric oxide (NOx) emissions, and the problem of on-board storage of the fuel and safety.
    That is probably because they were reviewing the mixed feul HYTEST. In normal combustion engines. That is a mix of natural gas and hydrogen.

    Fact remains, that in fuel cells a pure hydrogen car, only exhausts water. Because well, we don't put anything else in besides Oxygen and Hydrogen. And we don't ignite anything.
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dencat View Post
    how free energy would destroy their power.
    If free energy is so easy and free, why aren't you using it to power your house? Why aren't you a billionaire?
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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhysicsApple View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispen Evan View Post
    Plus hydrogen pollutes just as much if not more.
    how?
    Have you seen a hydrogen balloon burn? It burns very fast and if I'm not wrong; it also produces emissions.
    In hydrogen combustion the result is simply water and nothing else. The pollution results from creating the hydrogen and fuel cells in the first place.
    Wait hold on, what about the oxygen need to start the fire. That oxygen is not coming back without somekind of plant. And by now people have torn them down for building.
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    Forum Bachelors Degree Kerling's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=PhysicsApple;372824]
    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble;372723
    In hydrogen combustion the result is simply water and nothing else. The pollution results from creating the hydrogen and fuel cells in the first place.[/QUOTE
    Wait hold on, what about the oxygen need to start the fire. That oxygen is not coming back without somekind of plant. And by now people have torn them down for building.
    I do think that is kind of incorporated in his pollution from creation. But yes, we should produce more oxygen into our atmosphere
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhysicsApple View Post
    Wait hold on, what about the oxygen need to start the fire. That oxygen is not coming back without somekind of plant. And by now people have torn them down for building.
    There is no shortage of oxygen. Also, if hydrogen is extracted from water, e.g. by electrolysis, (seems the most likely) then this will also release oxygen. Remarkably enough, in exactly the right proportion to combine with the hydrogen to make water.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Forum Bachelors Degree Kerling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    There is no shortage of oxygen. Also, if hydrogen is extracted from water, e.g. by electrolysis, (seems the most likely) then this will also release oxygen. Remarkably enough, in exactly the right proportion to combine with the hydrogen to make water.
    :P yeah, but still I'f we'd get gullible politicians convinced (or better their voters) that we should construct giant photosynthesis factories to support the growing CO2 production and feul consumption. It would be beneficial.
    In the information age ignorance is a choice.
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